If You're Not Doing Something Wrong, You Still Have Something To Worry About
from the good-answer dept
We're still waiting for a good answer to the question we asked a few months ago for a Godwin's Law-like name for the assertion that in any discussion about expansions of government surveillance, the longer the discussion goes, the more likely it is that someone will say "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about." While the concept still doesn't have a name, Bruce Schneier has written up a scathing rebuttal to anyone who utters the phrase, noting that privacy is not about hiding a "wrong," but about the basic human concept of liberty. In a world where your every movement is watched, it's always easy for the watchers to abuse that info, either by defining what's wrong (which can change rapidly), or simply by using that info to embarrass or blackmail a person -- even if the actions are perfectly legitimate. With that in mind, people act very differently under constant surveillance. They are not free to be themselves -- even if they're not doing anything "wrong." So, the answer to the question of what are you worried about is simple. It's the loss of basic human freedom and liberty.
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what if you're black or Asian?
what if you're black or Asian? then you should be worried for the simple reason of, "guilt by 'looking guilty'" - even though you may have done absolutely NOTHING wrong at all. you are just stereo-typed as someone who may have done something wrong.
try being black and driving your nice car down the street of an "upper-class" neighborhood and see if you don't attract the eyes of several "whities" or even the attention of the police to turn on his siren for a, "what business do you have in this neighborhood" check.
or try being Asian and driving your acura or honda civic to a car show, and while on your way, you are accused of being involved of illegal car racing - or at least hassled for having "illegal" car components installed.
Heck - not all Asians with fixed-up cars are racers (no, the wing and stickers do NOT make your car go faster)... and not all blacks in a good neighborhood are crooks (not all blacks are poor thieves - many actually do have good jobs and make good money and are responsible citizens).
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Re: what if you're black or Asian?
Almost anybody young driving around a nice neighborhood gets checked, and i know that anybody with a "fixed up car" gets checked too.
it just happens. it has always happened. I've had a tuner and now i have a classic car, i still get eyed just as much by the cops. it's a thing about possible/easy money for the car thing.
the racial part. i believe that's dying out.
the worst area i know of in my town is very mixed.
Regardless of race a person in a tight spot i believe will react the same.
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I don't know
I'm going to admit that I may not be the poster child for integration/tolerance/etc, but I feel as though I and most of the people I know are much better than my parents generation, and CERTAINLY better than my grandparents generation. So, we may not be there yet, but we are at least getting closer.
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Re: I don't know
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Re: Re: what if you're black or Asian?
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Re: what if you're black or Asian?
My family has ben here in America since 1636 and has fought suffered and yes died in every war since day one. One saying that has echoed down through the years and is still right on today is " IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT , LEAVE . "
America has always ben first in line to offer and give help to any country in the world when disaster strikes no matter who they are,the color of their skin or if they look , act , or sound different than we . Name one country, just one that can say that. We dont go around blowing or own horn , but sometimes you have to remind comon folks what side of their bread is buttered. You would not dump sewage in your own yard, nor should you disrecpect this Great Country of Mine and Yours .
I live in a small town whrer it is uncomon to see a stranger come cruseing around. You beter belive no matter what he looks like , if he or she hangs around to long the cops will be called to check hie or her out. That my fellow american is what they call Neghiborhood Watch . So maybe you are not diong anything wrong , but we see to it that nobody has a chance to .
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Re: Re: what if you're black or Asian?
As far as being first in line to help ... no, that's not true. Furthermore, much of the government's help is tied to other things (e.g., AIDS awareness requires the receiving government to teach abstinence).
Name one country that steps up to the plate? Well, there's Canada. There's also Sweden. You'd be surprised how much Saudia Arabia contributes to disasters.
Don't go around blowing our own horn? Man, you gotta be deaf!
Um, why would you call the cops to check out someone who's not doing anything? Sounds like you'd enjoy living in a police state.
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Re: Re: what if you're black or Asian?
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Re: Re: what if you're black or Asian?
Actually, all the things that are good about the country came about because those who did not like it fixed it.
I hate the "Love it or leave it" mindset vehemently. It is a trick borne of logical fallacy. You are presenting two options and implying that these are the only choices when, in fact, there are many others.
The essence of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution is that Americans not only have these rights and choices, but must exercise them in order to avoid losing them.
America, love it or leave it is about as un-American a sentiment as I have ever heard.
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Re: what if you're black or Asian?
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Re: what if you're black or Asian?
I promptly got my ass kicked by a two burly black guys when I greeted them enthusiastically with "Wazzup ma nizzle?"
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Ben said it best
GOM
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Re: Ben said it best
I say to them, ok, you forward all of your sail mail to me and I will open and look inside all your mail then seal it up and forward it back to you, I sure you won’t mine considering the fact you have done nothing wrong or anything to hide.
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Re: Ben said it best
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Re:
That's one of the dumbest thing's I've ever heard - and I worked for the federal government for years. Zoo animals are "captive", hence the term "in captivity". Protected, observed, and monitored? Yes. But free? No. By giving up your privacy (or, rather, having it taken away) you're even worse off than the animals. You're still captive, and you're not protected. How can your captor (the predator) be your protector? That's not freedom by any stretch of the imagination.
[Note: looks like I agree with your opinion, just not your worthless analogy...]
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Re:
We need to protect our country from those who would harm us and the attitude of "take our chances" is assinine because some part or US is going to be harmed when it happens, therefore WE are all harmed.
by Anonymous Coward on May 18th, 2006 @ 12:31pm
All this is done in the name of national security, but i would rather take my chances against the terrorists. At least they are honest about their goals and motivation.
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Re:
The worst that a terrorist can do is take your life. A government can take your life and your liberty.
I forget who it was who noted that the incidents in New York, Madrid, London etc proved that no terrorist attack, no matter how awful, will ever destroy civilisation. Even if they manage to get a nuclear weapon, it still won't destroy civilisation. One hurricane, on the other hand, can destroy all semblances of civilisation in the places where it touches overnight.
And that is why I'm more scared of hurricanes than terrorists.
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How about this name
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Then
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I wonder...
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Re: I wonder...
Was told by an old central office tech, you see the guys in the black suits, you turn around, walk away from that area, and if anyone EVER asks, you saw NOONE.
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Re: I wonder...
I'd say we just know more about it now.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-nsa517,0,5970724.story?page=1&c
oll=ba l-home-headlines
While the story is clearly spun to imply current collection methods are far more invasive today, the fact still remains that even under democratic leadership the government was involved in large scale data maing at least as far back as 1998.
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That said, many of us engage in activities that we or others consider wrong (not illegal, but not right either). So the point holds, and as he said it could very easily become illegal.
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Re:
You have not thought about this enough, and the upside is you are probably a nice, decent person and not nearly paranoid enough for today's world. Here's an example of how a completely legitimate but private action, if laid before the eyes of the world, could be devastating to a person's standing: You have sex with your wife. Unbeknownst to you, someone videotapes it. You are mailed a copy anonymously with a demand. End of story. Are your peers apalled that you have sex with your wife? Of course not. Are they seriously disturbed that you have a sex tape floating around that reveals your particular taste in sex toys? yes.
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Do you actually think they are keeping them out now? You are seriously deluded if you think that what they are doing could prevent any specific attack.
"Well tho moon hasn't fallen on us, so the Magic Moon Holder must be working!"
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Re: Re: Re:
Because the terrorists never suspected that their communications would be intercepted? Come on. Isn't this the whole idea behind sleeper cells. That you don't constantly communicate with one another?
It's not a matter of if this surveilance will be used against you, Joe Citizen, but when. It doesn't have to be the Government using this info against you, it could simply be your wife's divorce lawyer asking for your phone records. Or maybe that neighbor you pissed off with your fence knows somebody at the phone company and he now wants the world to know about your chats on the sex line. Or maybe.....you get the idea. Once the information has been collected it's ripe for use and abuse.
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on the plus side it would be hillarious to see how many politions check out a cute girl walking by.
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You guys are right, I didn't totally think through the fact that there are some things that are embarrassing that are not considered "wrong" by anyone. Things like video tapes of me and my wife could very easily be used against me.
Though from some of the responses to my post (not the one I quoted above), I don't think they read through my whole post. I was actually in agreement that privacy is important. After all, even if you don't think it is wrong, that doesn't mean that someone else doesn't. And if someone else thinks it is wrong, then it could very easily be used against you.
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But what if the embarrassing thing is something that can't be controlled?
Maybe the person is running for public office and his incumbent opponent, through use of surveillance, knows that the challenger is a bedwetter?
What if you are walking along and you trip on a lawn jart and fall on your face?
What if you have some medical condition that you don't want attention brought to?
Any one of those is enough for me to adamantly oppose all this big brother crap that we are seeing now.
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Re:
A trade secret is a good example that nobody would consider "wrong", but could still be used to blackmail. "Give us the money or we'll tell everyone the secret recipe for your cola."
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Big Picture
Given: U.S. imprisons people without charge or lawyers.
Given: U.S. tortures prisoners.
Given: U.S. spies on the press, democratic PAC's, quakers, and environmentalists.
Given: U.S. generously employs misinformation.
Given: Clinton just wanted a bj or two.
Could someone please give me a moral comparison?
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Re: Big Picture
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Re: Big Picture
Given: Clinton approved and used Echelon
Given: Clinton used and updated Carnivore and Omnivore
Given: All politicians worry more about getting elected and gaining power than any single one of us citizens
Conclusion: Politicians just use the public's general ignorance and the "People Magazine" like idol worship of certain individuals to herd us all in a direction that insures their control of the power pie... doesn't matter who it is. Clinton was just as filthy as any other president or politician has been and will be.
Does anyone think that the ants in an anthill in the middle of a herd of sheep realize that they are trapped in the herd? Until someone tells them they are trapped, they are fine and nobody will tell them until it will give them some kind of advantage.
The best thing we could do in this country would be to turn off our TVs and start going to all public hearings, congressional debates, and read up on our civics instead of praying to the red or blue altars!
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Re: If You're Not Doing Something Wrong, You Still
Consider this: talking about legalizing prostitution, or repealing the prohibition on some drugs, or any other "hot" topic. Just talking about it, not in any way doing it.
I remember in college philosophy classes being able to discuss anything with an almost unhindered freedom - it was a rare moment when a class did not end with some significant realizations on a given topic.
OK, leave the campus and go try to have the same discussion in a public forum. How often will you be shouted down, checked out or investigated, kicked out or otherwise have your liberties trampled upon?
The simple fact is that even if every ounce of surveillance we're removed in the blink of an eye We The People would still be the primary barrier to Liberty.
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A lot of it is just ignorance, willfull and otherw
In my experience, most people simply don't understand (and are usually afraid to find out) how much information can be gathered on them through things like Rep. Sensenbrenner's data retention law or the NSA phone records. They have this inkling that it really could bite them in the ass, but... it couldn't be me... right?
I think that the very fact that most people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that no knock raids have resulted in a lot of innocent people getting killed and has increased unprofessionalism among cops is a worrying trend as well. Getting the government to reform itself is a monumental task, one usually requiring either a sweeping democratic revolution that ousts the ruling class or... a 1776 sort of action.
Another thing, it's usually a sign of how far down a society has fallen when things like these become common place. Most Americans are even more afraid of being called bigots than they are of being blown up by terrorists. After 9-11, deporting all Saudi nationals would have done more to end the terror threat against us than monitoring, detention without trial, etc. combine. Instead, even American Muslim citizens suffer because we don't want to be called "bigots" toward the Saudis even though Saudis are disproportionately represented in terror groups, especially anti-American ones.
Our country won't get over these cliches and this PC culture that prevents us from having liberty and security until it's too late, I'm afraid.
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Nobody Likes You
Who is the last person you knew persoanly that was blackmailed with something obtained through spying?
Listening to phone conversations is nosey. The technology is there, and some guy knows he can...it only takes time before he does...just to see if he can. Well he can, and he kept doing it.
Here is a test for the paranoid and brave.
First: Mail a letter to yourself with the exact plan and make it 100% clear that this is only a test.
Second: Call a friend and say you have a bomb and are going to blow up a government building.
Third: Wait to see if anyone shows up to arest you. Have letter in hand. Make sure to mail it to yourself, and have it ready, unopened, and postmarked. That way it shows that you had no intentions of actually doing it.
Good Luck!
For those of us that are not paranoid and worrying about racism. Just sit back and hope someone you know does that test, and lets you watch (just in case something does happen).
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"If the Founding Fathers considered your question to be legitimate, why did they go to such great lengths to ensure that the rights of the innocent are protected?"
In other words, why would our founders think we needed a Bill of Rights at all if the innocent had nothing to worry about?
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Niemoller's Law
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller
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"The innocent have nothing to fear." ...
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Re:
The proper resonse is, "If that were the case then we wouldn't need a Bill of Rights."
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Re: Security.
are the reason this Geographical Area will soon fall.
We are being sold out by both major parties in favor
of one World goverment and the cheap workers it will
need. I only have a short time left so it may not happen in my lifetime, but Ii feel sorry for some of you. If you think your being watched now wait till FREEDOM is gone. A Country with no will to even guard it's own gates will fall. I only pray none of you will be a victim of the next act our enemies are planning at this very moment. The Enemy is at the Gate and you let them in, and some of them appear to walk the halls of Congress. Now all of you go
back to sleep. They depend on that.
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Re: Re: Security.
back to sleep. They depend on that.
I see we have another here that wants to make another East Berlin...
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So I guess you don't mind if we post pictures of you on the toilet on the internet, along with a analysis of bathroom visit frequency and what you had for lunch?
I don't consider having sex with my wife wrong, but I don't want videos of it on the internet. In fact I would be upset if people knew when I had sex without my telling them.
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Don't forget your in AMERICA . The borders may someday be closed to keep OUT undesireables and illeagles , but they will Always Remain open for anyone who wishes to leave .
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Anyone notice the amusing correlation between grammar/spelling skills and desire to sloppily post "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT?"
Seriously. Who would you consider 'undesirables'? Gays? People with skin any shade darker than a gentle bronze? Yes you're in America, a nation founded foremost on the idea that the government shouldn't meddle with our basic freedoms for the sake of a little false security. The fact that everyone, save the Native Americans, had to immigrate here at some point (1650 or 1950, who cares?) means that you really can't point the finger at others and say 'you don't belong here' just because your family got here first without being a pretty big asshole. Your ancestors got here in 1636 eh? All of them? They must have had a hard time finding only mates who didn't get here any later. You wouldn't want to lose your place in line for Bestest American Ever!
BornFree: I understand your sentiment completely. Sometimes I consider what fun it will be to stop fighting the erosion of basic freedoms in this country and leave my dear old homeland (tear) and watch from afar as the thought police take over. Some day, patriotic man, you will finally see. Too bad it will probably be as they are dragging you away for crimes against the state.
Dark ages commence!P.S. I have ancestors that came over on the Mayflower in 1621. I'm soooo beating you.
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Pablum
is often attributed to Trent Lott on this very subject. Why not name it after him?
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Re: Pablum
Excellent! I hereby dub it "Lott's Non-Sequitur".
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Wrongonot's Law
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Problems with Authority?
'If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of.'
Tell that to Rosa Parks, MLK Jr., and all the whites helping the underground railroads. Tell that to the Jews in Nazi germany, the innocent people being tortured as we speak in Guantanamo Bay, and how about SCREAMING it in Tiananmen Square? Maybe it would be a good lesson to teach amerikkkan gays, abortion doctors, or people in China that practice Falun Gong. Tell that to Michael Donald, or the people in Rosewood Florida, or for that matter any of the hundreds of black men in the south lynched by mobs for crimes they did not commit.
Seriously, I wish anyone that has ever said that statement and meant it would instantly get zipped away to a parallel universe which consist of one small room, two cups of chinese tea and this man... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3ATianasquare.jpg
For how ever long he decides is necessary.
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I say to them, ok, you forward all of your sail mail to me and I will open and look inside all your mail then seal it up and forward it back to you, I sure you won’t mine considering the fact you have done nothing wrong or anything to hide.
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Summary of some points.
"If you have nothing to hide then let everyone in the world read your mail and watch films of you and your wife"
*There have always been corrupt groups/governments or belief based 'gangs', allow violations of privacy and they gain the means to know everything you do:
"So your wife's black huh?...well, you're gonna pay me $300 a week or we'll hang her, our little secret"
Unless you thing that being black
(or any race, belief or opinion) in an offence punishable by death, it would be unwise to let anyone violate anyone elses privacy rights without 'steel-solid' reasons.
Even suspecting someone of murder is a suspect reason, you could simply LIE, then spy on an innocent person that was going to reveal important govt information that society needed to know about..."oh, they're deadly allergic to peanuts...*Govt leaves cooked meal on their doorstep with a 'thankyou' card*.
There you have it, it's perfectly alright to prevent crimes by teaching children/etc or by tracking down a suspect CSI style...you do not need to tap eveyones phone to find murderers, they will be the ones least likely to reveal such information over phones they know might be tapped.
2:
"If you don't like America (or ANYTHING else) leave it alone and go somewhere where in no-longer bothers you."
Usually it's a large group of people that doesn't like something, imagine America losing 45% of it's population because some people didn't like KKK members harassing them and everyone they cared about.
In the entire history of our fine America, we have always endeavoured to make it a better place, more free etc.
This statement innocuously suggests that we break that long lived tradition and become apathetic about anything- Weather it be Terrorism, Agism, Racism, or Read-my-private-letterism.
The original statement was basically giving an imperative opinion: Do this or this.
This is similar to saying: "Walk 2 steps then stop" to a stranger without any logical explaination and expecting them to treat you like a well adjusted adult.
"If something's broken...we're gonna kick it's ass, or fix it"
Privacy is broken at the moment,
(It could be worse and it could be better).
if we can decalre war on a noun (Terrorism), we can fix one as well...we're Americans, we can even declare war on "Spying", and from all that everyone has contributed to on this topic- we have good reason to.
3:
"If we reduce the right to privacy, we gain Security...and we MUST have security, *Traces any one of these posts back to your home address* Traitor! you don't believe in security, therefore you don't believe in America! therefore you don't believe in freedom...we don't need a court case to take scum like you away."
If it can be done by anyone, it can be done by ANYONE else. If the Govt taps the phone of one person, anyone at all, then they can and might tap yours.
Who is going to stop them?
Who is going to stop your neighbour exploiting the in-built govt backdoor into your private life? if the govt makes it compulsory for mobile phone manufacturers to include hardware that lets them record your calls...it'll be on Wikipedia:"My uncle works for the govt so here's a way to listen to anyone's phone conversations".
You might not fear the government, how about someone who asks his fellow criminal
"left the keys under the flowerpot eh? away on holiday? let's smoke this fat-cat (you)"
My examples and analogies may not be the best would, however it's clear that there is potential for abuse.
A gun has the potential to go off...and that's still a lot safer than taking away privacy rights
(I could give an example but use your imagination).
I have not been unbiased and make no apologies for coming across as pro human rights/freedom/privacy.
It's because I don't want the govt knowing that I collect stamps...if word got out my reputation as a bank-robber would be seriously marred...I'd get bank staff going "aren't you that sissy boy that collects stamps?!"
and I'd have to run out of there crying.
And there's nothing wrong with collecting stamps...it's my right as an Americ...don't look at me that way...
you don't know me!
:-)
Are There there are a few more point's?
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Such a nasty thing, the Govt needs some money to govern the country. Should the people of the country be given the responsibility of running it, instead of the government? (income tax department that doesn't answer to the government, only people of high integrity allowed to run it etc).
When people say "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about."
I say to them, ok, you forward all of your sail mail to me and I will open and look inside all your mail then seal it up and forward it back to you, I sure you won’t mine considering the fact you have done nothing wrong or anything to hide.
This was a very good tool brought up, I now say exactly that. Then "If the govt can spy obn you...what's to stop anyone else?"
Any other comebacks for: "if you've got nothing to hide, then let me strip search you"
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Re: nasty govm't
...but I digress. This isn't a thread on taxation, but privacy. My point was the huge intrusion into privacy caused by the income tax...and only honest people submit to the annual financial body cavity search. The underground economy, by definition, still keeps its finances private.
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