Yahoo's Not A French War Criminal, According To The Supreme Court
from the jurisdiction-questions dept
For nearly a decade, we've been discussing jurisdictional questions when it comes to the internet. It's still not entirely clear what laws apply where, and there are definite risks of jurisdiction shopping, as people file lawsuits in countries that have nothing to do with the actual case -- other than having internet available in that country. One of the first such high profile cases involved Yahoo and France. It's illegal in France to sell Nazi-related products, and so Yahoo was sued because its US auction site (not its French site) had Nazi-related products for sale (something the company has since banned anyway). The big question, though, was whether or not Yahoo was bound to follow the laws of France for a US-based site. While the US courts looked into the jurisdiction question, French courts looked into whether it should declare Yahoo and its CEO as war criminals. Eventually, the French courts recognized this was silly and acquitted Yahoo and its then CEO of the charges (and again, on appeal), but the jurisdiction question still stood. Up and down the various levels of the US court system, though, the courts seemed to all agree that France had little jurisdiction over Yahoo's activities in the US. Therefore, it should come as little surprise that the US Supreme Court sees no compelling reason to hear the case itself, suggesting the justices are comfortable with the lower court rulings.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
It Must be a Game Plan
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: It Must be a Game Plan
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: It Must be a Game Plan
They then reported this to the police who decided to act upon their complaint.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: French
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
"Did they really think they had any influence with the US Supreme Court?"
What are you talking about??? What in that story made you think France cares, at all, about what the US Supreme Court says? It was two different courts with two different issues and completely independent rulings. Apparently, you are confused.
AND WHAT WAR ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? AND HOW DID THEY LOSE???
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
That says to me that the French, and/or private French organizations, wanted the US courts to exert their authority over Yahoo to abide by French law.
War? Where was Normandy located? Could that have been German-occupied France in 1944? I could be wrong but the French appeared to be in a bit of trouble then.
Apparently you and I interpret things we read differently. Could be because I only drink California wine. Or it could be something else.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
We sure showed the French how to fight a war when we went to Vietnam.
Oh wait...we lost that one, so let's not talk about it.
I got a better idea. Let's talk about how stupid your ancestral people are. I mean, we all know how dumb Polish people are, right? And the Irish with their tempers.
Stereotypes are wrong, people. It personally offends me to hear someone generalize about an entire culture like that.
Besides, I happen to like wine. So why don't *you* STFU?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
War?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ofcourse
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
The French may at one time been our friends but the present government/people are not.
Mitch
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
As for the France vs. Yahoo ordeal....my lord....what a waste of time and money.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
SCOTUS
Just because the SCOTUS declined to hear the case doesn't actually legally mean anything. It's common to hear it reported that they "Upheld" a lower court's ruling by not hearing a case, but legally, it has no weight one way or the other.
The case would have precident value in the Circuit where it was heard, but a ruling in (for example) the 9th Circuit that was denied Ceratori has no legal value in any other Circuit.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Really? Name 12. Go ahead, I'll wait.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What else should a country that has lost every major war they've been involved in (minus their own, but hey, they were going to win it anyway) do with their play time?
Paddy cake gets boring after a while.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Homers
Gee... we actually have quite a bit in common.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
These comments were a waste of time
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: These comments were a waste of time
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: These comments were a waste of time
Are you the post Police?
"all of you-- wasted my time"
If we are wasting your time why are you here?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Dude, if it wasn't for the French trying to keep all their pre-war colonies, there would never have *been* a Vietnam.
And anyway, the soldiers didn't lose that war, it was us folks at home that prevented them from winning.
These and other wonderful facts about the way the world _really_ is can be found in books.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
(I just have to say it)
Think about it. Without France, America doesn't exist in the first place. Might wanna stop dissing them now, eh ;)
Just trying to scatter some intelligence amongst the stupidity.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: (I just have to say it)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
France, Angels? My butt
- They still want the world to respect them so bad their teeth hurt from biting on a shell in escargot and the only word that comes out is a Francophized word 'Internet" because they don't have a French equivalent
- Viet Nam. Somebody made a valid point above regarding France and their colonial aspirations. Well, they screwed it up and we had to cleam up the mess. Besides, we did win the battles, just not the war because of a lack of public support.
- Another side note that you may not ever see is that the French did far worse stuff to the Algerians in their war with them then anything the Nazis did to the Jews or the US did to Vietnamese for that matter. BUT WAIT!! The French Gov't won't talk about that because you can really see the French government for what it really is: a Hypocrite. Besides, they will avoid this topic like the plague because it shows them for what they truly are: yes, hypocrites.
- Besides, there isn't any love lost when you consider that the French are spying on the USA just as hard as the Israelis and Chinese are and rank up there as one of our bigger intelligence threats even though they are our "friends". Hell, they've proven that by how well they kept their noses out of Iraq while Hussein was in power.
- To bring this back around to the internet jurisdiction issue, if they have issues with Nazi stuff on Yahoo, they should learn from the Chinese Experiment in internet control. Yeah, that would go over REAL well and then they could control what the public REALLY is looking at.
Bottom Note: I lived close to the French border for approximately 3 years and the Frenchmen or women that live outside their metropolitan centers really don't have the asinine ideas that generally prevails in the cities. In fact, they are wonderful people who actually try and help you speak their language rather than turn their noses up at you. I met many of them and absolutley enjoyed their company. So, if you visit France get away from the bigger cities and you will probably enjoy yourselves much better.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Answer from France
You see, i'm French and I can't decide if you guys are just pissed of by some part of our politic or by a bit of bad burger.
France never won war ? Well, It may be.
We had colonies ? Yes, they have been freed since.
Algeria ? We can speak about Algeria and tell there was slaughters there. Guilty we are.
We try to have a bigger plce in th world politic ? yes, of curse. It's not you, American people, that can critizise this. We do have external prison like Guantanamo, so we don't have to respect our own laws.
You values (including the reference to God, whoever he is) are not exactly our values.
We don't care that you can buy nazi artifact in the US, but we don't want to be able to buy them in our own country.
Your country was never occupied. You dont seem to understand what it is. And yet you (your government) try its best to occupy other country : Afghanistan, Iraq or impose your ideas of what isgood or Evil (!) to some other.
I write this with calm, without reproach. The facts you talked about arereal for some, but don't feel that angelic about yourself.It's laugh about in a lot of other coutries, not just France.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Neutrality - Australia
You won WW2 right? All you, and you didn’t even have to jump in too save yourselves, you just thought you'd be friends and help out.
The French had a valid reason to address this issue; the US Supreme Court is not universal law either. When someone from overseas wishes too sell illegal material in your country can you not rule against its being legal in your country? Or would you dolts think its fine for someone to buy and use drugs because they are imported through the internet?
The idea of ruling against the CEO for war crimes is absurd but the premise of jurisdiction is a valid one.
An international Copyright and IT court should be set up to rule on these issues, with all digital information being free between countries it’s not feasible for these laws to be national anymore. And yes your arrogant American government can go have a cry that they don’t have a veto on that like the UN too.
(Btw, you did loose Nam; you may have won the battles, but in a guerrilla war large scale battles mean very little. You had nothing to win anyway, you can’t shoot an ideal in the face)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
tech dirt?
Let us say that the reactions here are easily the most stupid ones i've seen in days....
Because they're insecure with themselves they feel like attacking a country on every single occasion they have.
>.>
I have no love for the american govt (and even less for the current french govt), but the general issue french haters have is that they feel like govt = people...
That's just stupid.
For your info shells and frogs cost an arm and a leg AND taste horrible for most french, who don't hate america(the ideal behind the country) nor the americans just Bush administration (hey you had issues with Saddam, not iraquies, right?).
Also have you ever heard that justice must be separate from govt?
in france it's meant to be that way, maybe it's different in the us so don't blame Fr govt for Fr court making stupid decision.
And learn that unless in a war you manage 0 death, you cannot win a war (just have some thought for the fallen soldiers family).
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Big picture
The notion of juridiction over the internet is vital. If france can not sue yahoo US when Yahoo US sells nazi stuff. It means the US can not sue a russian site selling Kid Porn or an Afghan site selling opium etc.
There will always be somewhere in the world where wierd thigns are legal (kiddie porn being one of the finest examples). If companies based in those countries are allowed to sell world wide we open the door to an hugly bunch of problems.
I apologize for possible grammar errors in this post, i m ... french.
K
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
"Americans" (I do not want to include Canada, they speak french, you know...) have won MANY wars...
They won the WWII... because Russia was not there. They did not fight. Fucking IGNORANTS.
And all the Europeans that fought for many years in many fronts were in fact just looking how the "Americans" were winning the war. You bitches.
Germany lost the war in Russia. That is a fact.
And USA AND the allies AND Russia finnish it.
That is History... you should read more... Russia did take part in that war. In fact... they did more againts the Nazis than the US. Assume that. It is ither historical fact. Loosers.
What the US did in Viet Nam is what they are doing in Iraq: to fuck everybody whit their fascist SHIT.
You lied to be able to invade a country. Lied to the world and lied to your own stupid people. Stupid bastards, you belief whatever a monkey tells at the TV.
War on terror... it is the same shit that the Domino effect.
Same ideals, same way: Guantanamo, genocide, tortures, ilegal weapons... It is almost exactly like Viet nam. And like in Viet Nam at the end you will lose the war... because you are corrupted and the ideals and the world are in the other side.
the only difference is that before you had Rambo, and now there are web pages with real photos and videos of what your fucking freedom fighters do to the people.
Now everybody misses Saddam because he was much better ruling Iraq than the US baked Iraquian shity government now is.
To win wars?
Yes... After 1945, a country without past and no colonies that was more or less loved and respected by the entire has become what now is: a pathetic joke.
Dear "americans" you are a joke now. You have lost the most important war: nobody respects you now.
On the Wine.
What the fuck about the wine????
You try to sell the nice Californian wine everywhere... STFO
Ignorant bitch
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What do you expect
What you get is Id10t's like this Xan bastard.....Hey when is your piece of shit country gonna start paying it war debt? Your WWI (yes World War One war debt that is?
France has nothing to contribute except communistic bullshit (communism has failed everywhere).
Turn the place into a glass parking lot for Euro-Disney and save everyone from future headaches.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What did YOU expect from macartism(sp?)
Did you even fight Vietnam?
As far as i know NO ONE in France (except freakingstupid extrem right) is proud of what was done in Algeria!
And for the debt.. if Germany didn't pay what was due to us, why should we?
Were did you see communism rising in France? stop spreading the BS and falseconceptions.
I bet you don't even know a french guy >.> (if you do then you acted as a fool or he's a jerk)
you're only spreading the view that americans are arogants fools who don't have have any history and try to piss people off...
And for you info, George Washington, after signing a treaty with france(after 1777), revoked his nation alliance when it was needed and backstabed the french in the back.
how come you don't bring that too?
And i agree Xan's intervention was unneeded (just as yours and some others)
Can we stop the blood feud and the sensless flamewar now?
More importantly : IT IS OFFTOPIC
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Tee Hee Hee
"Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
You know, I hope, that the french colonies were not ONLY in America, but in Asia and Africa, don't you ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Excellent Comments
Well, to start, blah, blah, blah about the politics. The bottom-line I see about this court system is that hey, if you don't want to see it in your country don't let it be shown. But that smacks of absolutist control. And yes, I have to agree with whoever said it above. If something is illegal to your country then the obvious thing would be to NOT ORDER IT! Falls under the MOTFO maxim: Master Of The Freaking Obvious. And, I agree, if a website is offering Kiddy P0rn then you should ignore it rather than whine or bitch about it especially when you can't do anything about it internationally. And, if someone in our country decides to download it (illegal that it is) they need to get their peepee schwacked and hard like what we try to do here in this country. Which is exactly what I would expect the French Gov't to do to someone in their country who orders NAZI memorabilia from a website in the USA. This bitching in the courts about who has jurisdiction over that should just stick to their own country where the jurisdiction is valid and enforceable and not try and force it down someone else's throat. Otherwise log a formal complaint through federal or diplomatic channels and try and get the respective government to help you out. I will also concede that, we as Estados Unidenses, tend to try and push our own ideals down other peoples' throats too and we really shouldn't. Sounds like need to establish a good case of agreeing to disagree agreeably and live with that.
I will reiterate my comments above in that I have no ill-will towards France. I have ill-will towards stupid people and unfortunately they tend to show their butt here on the internet. Mine has been shown too. Anyway, I will say that I don't necessarily agree with what my country does in politics, however I believe strongly that if you punch a pacifist in the face often enough they will eventually defend themselves as we have finally begun since the whole Terrorism shebang started up back in 1979 with Iran.
As far as Iraq is concerned, well, as Olly used to say: "Here's another fine mess you've (being the US Gov't) gotten us into." If you're going to get involved make sure you have an exit plan and learn to realize that your idea of democracy may not be exactly what another culture views it as and then accept their opinions and implementations of that.
On that note, Bon Soir to mes amis from France. I really do appreciate your view even if I may wrankle you on occasion. So please be kind to me when I visit your country and speak in my poor French. We aren't perfect and shouldn't expect any more from anyone else.
V/R,
Tom
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
A good talk, even a heated one, is always good.
No need for war between people. Our stupid presidents can do it themself.
Fausta.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]