Video Games As Simulators
from the the-good-and-the-bad dept
With politicians again freaking out about the impact of video games on kids, there are two interesting stories today about how video games may be helping kids. The first is a middle school where an English teacher is using video games to keep kids interested, while teaching them about concepts like setting, plot and story line. He recognizes that they may relate better to video games, and can then take those lessons and apply them to books. The second story is about a teenager who has become a very young NASCAR driver. He credits all the hours he put in playing racing video games over the years, as he grew up. They taught him the basics, and even helped him get familiar with the various courses. Of course, stories like this aren't particularly new. Years ago, we wrote about pilots who picked up flying miraculously quickly thanks to their use of Microsoft's Flight Simulator. Then there are stories like former Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana preparing for games by facing his real-life opponents in video game format first.However, with all of these stories about games acting as "simulators" some might point out that we still scoff at anti-video game lawyer Jack Thompson when he refers to games like Grand Theft Auto as "murder simulators." Of course, there's a huge difference between what Thompson and the politicians are describing, and what these other stories describe. In the other "training" stories, it's all about people using the video games to purposely learn certain skills that can then be applied to the real world. If a kid is purposely using GTA to learn how to kill or steal cars, then that kid has serious problems that have little to do with the video game. Instead, what Thompson and the politicians seem to be so concerned about is that these games somehow have subliminal powers to influence people into thinking that what they do in a virtual world is then okay in the real world. Of course, that assumes that most people can't actually separate reality from fiction -- which doesn't seem to be true. If it were, then shouldn't we be seeing a lot more professional NASCAR drivers coming out of the suburban homes with video game machines? After all, if we follow the logic, then all of those kids are being brainwashed into becoming competitive NASCAR drivers. And, of course, we're still searching for the great epidemic of kids running through the streets because they learned it from playing Frogger. Instead, it seems like most people know the difference between reality and a video game, and know that while it can be useful for training, it's not brainwashing people into no longer understanding the difference between right and wrong. Perhaps that's why as violent video games have gotten increasingly popular, youth violence has continued to drop. Somehow, in all of the grandstanding, politicians like to ignore that fact.
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same story at in the 80s
I guess and any media can be addictive for the right personality but that doent make it evil.
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Conditioned Upon
Given that the video industry produces less harmful games, they make the claim that their products cannot be harmful. Less educated techies swallow the propaganda whole.
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Re: Conditioned Upon
What about the news? The news is responsible for more violence than any other media source.
People see stuff on TV that upsets them and go nuts. Rodney King riots anyone?
Before they invented TV there was a case where 2 youngsters read a murder story and thought they could get away with the perfect crime. They killed their younger cousin and were both caught.
But what about crime pre-dating books. When most people didn't know how to read and write? Did people watch animals kill each other and try to copy them?
Another interesting thing to note, countries that are less censored than the US are no more violent (in fact, the US with all its censorship is one of the most violent modernised countries).
Politicians need to start looking at real reasons for youth problems in the states. Have they not learned anything from Columbine? Doesn't look like it.
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Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
We have "R" ratings, last I heard.
Or Even Books?
X-rated novels are illegal to sell to minors, last I heard.
What about the news? The news is responsible for more violence than any other media source.
Do you have evidence to back this notion?
Another interesting thing to note, countries that are less censored than the US are no more violent (in fact, the US with all its censorship is one of the most violent modernised countries).
Again, do you have evidence to back this notion? African countries, Afghanistan, some Latin American countries have no censorship rules, because they have no rule of law. They are far more violent places than the USA.
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Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
Most parents are sensible enough that when they learn that content in games might be offensive to them they go for games more gear towards their kids.
Welcome back dorpus, you've been a little absent as of late. Have the Mike, or Carlos, or even Joe not pissed you off lately? What are you doing up at 4:41 AM? Do you start drinking that early?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
Did you mean "adequately"?
What the problem is, is that most parents don't enforce the sudgested age range,
Did you mean "suggested"?
just cause there lil 12 year old might throw a fit.
Did you mean "their"?
Welcome back dorpus, you've been a little absent as of late. Have the Mike, or Carlos, or even Joe not pissed you off lately?
Why worry about these losers? They believe what they want to believe, and don't listen to other perspectives.
What are you doing up at 4:41 AM?
You're assuming I live on Pacific Daylight Time?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
The games are rated for certain age groups and those ratings should be enforced by the parents.
To point out all the grammatical errors in someone's post is: 1. pretentious and 2. a good way to cover the fact that you have no counter-point to the post.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
When the ratings have the force of law, then it allows punishment of negligent parents. If there were no laws against bad parenting, then people would complain that there are no laws against bad parenting.
To point out all the grammatical errors in someone's post is: 1. pretentious and 2. a good way to cover the fact that you have no counter-point to the post.
I was raising the level of discourse here. But would you rather fit the stereotype of the illiterate techie who throws hissy fits when his illiteracy is pointed out to him?
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Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
So novels that aren't x-rated obviously don't ever involve violence? Nothing by Tom Clancy, Robert Ludlum, Clive Cussler? How about more obviously fiction novels, by Robert Jordan, R.A. Salvatore, Stephen King? Tom Clancy's Without Remorse describes torture. Is that ok for minors because they won't have access to a hyperbaric chamber?
There are a lot of good arguments against further censorship, but none of them are ones you brought up.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
Reading a book is not the same as gory imagery on a video screen, though.
How many kids have maimed themselves or got into big trouble from reading anarchist or revenge tactic books? Is there a reason why mainstream bookstores usually don't carry it?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
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Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
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Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
We have "R" ratings, last I heard. (Yes they do, but how effective is the rating system? Are you aware the video game industry has a similar rating system? MA = 18+ only)
Or Even Books?
X-rated novels are illegal to sell to minors, last I heard. (X-Rated books are the ones that include nudity not violence, you can buy comic books anywhere anytime.)
What about the news? The news is responsible for more violence than any other media source. (Ever hear of copy cat killers? Yeah it happens.)
Do you have evidence to back this notion? (We are much more violent then countries than almost all the European nations and we have much more censorship, using Afghanistan & Iraq where you have Extremist without law is definitely not an "Apples to Apples" comparison)
Another interesting thing to note, countries that are less censored than the US are no more violent
Again, do you have evidence to back this notion? African countries, Afghanistan, some Latin American countries have no censorship rules, because they have no rule of law. They are far more violent places than the USA. (in fact, the US with all its censorship is one of the most violent modernised countries; Keyword in previous arguement "Modernized" not third world countries that have no law or rights for citizens).
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Re: Conditioned Upon
Wait a minute what about Violent Movies?We have "R" ratings, last I heard.
And? A great many kids still see these movies and their heads, surprisingly enough, do not explode. One of the points made, though, was not simple exposure, but the "acting out" aspect. What of the actors in violent movies? If acting out the role of violence in make-believe has a causal relationship to real life violence, where then is the evidence of our hollywood actors going on killing sprees? (I would also point out here that a great many children have also appeared in such movies just to head off the "more mature minds" arguments) Why isn't Drew Barrymore a pyro? Come on, where's the evidence to back up this notion? Any evidence at all.
I mean, you're the Dorpus! You know all. Help us out here.
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Reality and fiction
Mike, be careful in saying that most people can separate reality from fiction. I know this is not a main point of this article but it is worth noting that most people cannot separate fact from fiction if it is packaged like it is fact. Case in point "The Da Vinci Code". How many people read this painfully boring book simply because it "uncovers the truth the Christian church has been hiding for years"? "The Da Vinci Code" has been proven time and again to be purely fictional yet people insist in believing the scandals that the book presents as being real. Again, I know this is not a main point of your article Mike, but it is a foundational one. I would have to say I disagree that this statement "...most people can't actually separate reality from fiction -- which doesn't seem to be true." There are many other cases where people simply assume that a fiction is reality because of the packaging and the place they are buying it from.
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Re: Reality and fiction
i'm following what Spartacus is saying, but there should be a little more added. mike, a lot of people can differentiate; i don't argue that. however, society as a whole is more worn down with violence, hence making it more OK. i firmly believe that the parents are responsible here (for allowing content they feel questionable to be bought with their own money). personal fxcking responsibility. i don't think it's a matter of fact from fiction, but eventually we will be running around with a banana hammock in public because that's normal (people wouldn't dare wear a halter top or bikini in public just 50 years ago---times DO change). eventually ultraviolence and all the things you say won't happen..will.
so should the government dictate it to us? yes and no. it has a responsibility to prevent society from going down the tubes, but also a responsibility to live and let be. IMHO, the gov't needs to let this one go, but i can see their point.
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Re: Re: Re: Conditioned Upon
We have "MA" and "AO" ratings as well.
...most people cannot separate fact from fiction if it is packaged like it is fact.
"packaged like it is fact." That is the key phrase. There is a big difference from "The DaVinci Code" and "GTA". May be people can't tell if "The DaVinci Code" is real but "MOST" people can tell the difference between killing someone in a video game and killing someone in real life.
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symptom not the disease
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Hype
Oh I'm sure society is going to fall apart over this, teens are going to run wild in the streets stealing cars, smoking The Pot, killing grandmas, and stealing our daughters away from church into a cesspool of drugs and violence, just like rock & roll was going to do, the radio, and hip-hop. Bla, bla, bla...
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Parents faullt
/2 cents
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Games like GTA are not at all realistic - a fact that is obvious to anyone who might play them. No human can jog around a city carrying 10 guns and a rocket launcher and, last I checked, stealing cars is not as easy as pressing one key on your keyboard (so many people are locking their doors and wearing seatbelts these days...).
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A comment on another article about piracy or something like that said that the government seems to try to cure the symptoms and not the disease, which is correct. I think it's partly the parent's fault and partly the government's fault. Parent's should pay more attention to their kids and buy only what they think would not affect their child negatively. Nowadays parent's don't seem to care and say "kids will be kids" while they give them their 5+ dollars weekly allowance...or just buy whatever their kid wants without even looking at what their buying.
The government was made to protect the people like the immune system protects the body. The immune system doesn't keep away the heat of a fever.
There are fewer teens who play video games than adults, and adults have total access to adult rated games. And adults do more crimes than teens. My god, teens should take control of th country! Just kidding.
I think teen violence is linked to negative parental behavior, unable to differentiate fact from fiction from some other disease or LACK OF KNOWLEDGE(one of the causes of too many STDs in Africa), or depression and mental disorders where the child can still do things like shoot people. On a side note, drugs and other neural chemicals are a cause of depression and other mental disorders.
I talk too much so I'll stop here while I can still control myself.
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Murder Simulators - bad thing?
However, I think it is a far more interesting proposition to tentatively accept such a shocking evaluation of games for a moment and consider.
Say perhaps violent video games ARE in fact "Murder Simulators".
Has anyone proved conclusively whether or not Murder Simulators lead to more real-life murder, or whether or not they provide a "safe" outlet for behavior that would be dangerous in real life?
Say perhaps a youth in my city is moved by "REALLY VIOLENT GAME " to go and kill someone after playing the game. Say perhaps a psychologist in court conclusively proves it beyond anyone's doubt.
Fine.
But no one's gone around and talked to all the other people who bought the video game. How many of those people were already violent types? How many of them had aggressive tendencies and regularly act on them in real life? How many of those violent folks stayed in and killed electronic people rather than going out and murdering someone else? Is it possible that four or five other kids were able to vent their anger in a "safe" way through the video game? How many people would have died if this "safe" outlet was not available?
If no one would have died without the video game "outlet", it seems easy to say the game was all bad (one died) and no good (no one would have been spared). If three would have died without the game, it seems easy to say the game had some good (more lives were saved than lost). But what if it were just one life spared? (One person died as a result of the game, and one was saved?) Then we are pushed away from the numbers and metrics of life and death and are pushed closer to the real question -- what kind of person died -- what kind of person lived. Without the game, person A lived, but person B died; with the game, person A dies, but person B lives. Even though the numbers are the same, it is possible that we are still changing our society by killing one type of person and sparing another... and that these people are different people than if the games did not exist.... ACCORDING TO THIS HYPOTHESIS.
However, I believe it's nearly impossible for a game alone to dramatically affect such life and death situations. At most, games and other media can be aggrevating or mitigating factors which influence the actions of individuals. The individual responsible is always more complex than the hypothetical questions posed by considering the effect of violent video games on society.
I believe there is much more to gain by analyzing the intervening human interaction of individuals and their thought processes than by trying to protect society with additional restrictions, the effects of which are largely unproven and unreliable.
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test
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I agree
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Reality vs. Video games
Keep in mind while kids are stealing cars and shooting up the streets in their favorite video games, they're also getting caught (or killed) a few times along the way as well.
And that's a real bummer, dude.
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Same ole' story
want my tax dollars going to raising someone elses child because mom/dad is too caught up in their own lives to talk with their children. I spent too much time indulging myself with these so called "Bad for Kids" activities. Except UFC and Pro Wrestling (don't see why anyone would watch that crap). As a 13 yr old I would sneak into the attic and watch my step father porn. At 14 I would play erotic video games at a friends house on his Commodore 64. My entire life in High School was devoted to Punk and Heavy Metal. I watched Bugs Bunny. I did all the things that supposedly contribute to a bad child. Not once have I been in a physical fight. I have yet to flee from police. Still haven't killed anyone. Haven't raped anybody either. I've done nothing that these things are supposed to lead teenagers, too. Do you know why? Because my parents had the guts and forsight to talk to me. Show me right from wrong. Not just through words but through example. Do you think some kid is going to listen to his dad's virtues if he knows dad is ripping off the office in yet another fraud case. No. To blame the media, no matter what form it comes in is a joke. These media hungry moms and politicians only want you to believe them long enough to succeed in their own agendas. Don't buy into the hype. Think for yourself. Research it if need be. But always, I mean always, question what those in power tell you. The line between fact and fiction is blurred everywhere, not just in video games.
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Re: Same ole' story
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Give me a break
Thanks to Sonic I can now summersault real fast.
Metroid, there is that summersault thing again.
Mario is training me how to break brick with my head and shoot fireballs from my mouth.
Leisure Lary...if I ever go to the Play Boy mansion I know exactly how to score
Grand Tourismo is training me...ok this one has some validity to it, but there is slim chance I will get the chance to drive the F1 but if I do...
And best of all, because of GTA I can now pick up hookers just by honking the horn, and it is worth it because my life bar will go up.
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Re: Give me a break
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Wrong! Look! Frogger IS brainwashing kids into copying it!
http://news.com.com/Roomba+takes+Frogger+to+the+asphalt+jungle/2100-1043_3-6049922.htm l?tag=ne.gall.related
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GTA was a good Simulator
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This notion that video games are only for kids has gone out the window a long time ago. ESA stated that the average player is 33 years old, therefore; it makes since that the video game industry would market its product accordingly. The average age of an "R" rated movie go’er is probably similar to that 33 range, should "R" rated movies be banned.
Oh yah, and thanks to Dance Dance Revolution people line up all around me in the club just to watch.
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On the note of who's fault it is. I believe 100% it is the parents. They need to be involved in their childs life. They need to listen. They need to be...well...parents.
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When I was young.
Parents should always expect there kids to do the worst, and keep harmful things locked up, or "out of reach".. In today’s violent world, Communication and education is the key to a healthy normal Childs development
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Re: DayLateFriend
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This is a stupid arguement
I believe stores that are caught selling mature games to immature customers are fined. So there is a system at work to prevent premature exposure of this violent content to minors. Parents just need to parent better, plain and simple.
There is no medium that causes people to be violent. It may give people who are already violent new ideas on how to act out said violence but it is in no way the cause of the problem.
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Violent Movies are going to end society as we know it
Then it was Cartoons.. VIOLENT ones
Then it was Rock and Roll
Then it was D&D
Then it was Heavy Metal
Then it was Rap
Now it's video games *yawn*
No riddle me this batman...
What Has done MORE damage to society? Video Games or Ambulance Chasing Lawyers suing every doctor in site?
Ask yourself this question again when you look at your health insurance premiums. I, for one, am a contractor and I CANT EVEN AFFORD HEALTCARE, I'd be better off on welfare, then it would be free.
So again - which is doing more damage to society?
Video Games or Lawyers?
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Re:
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Causing vs Encouraging
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Here's a story...
The loner tries to get help but noone believes him (mainly due to the qualities that made a loner to start with).
The loner gets a gun and shoots up the school.
All of a sudden the parents of the "In" crowd are like, "What did my kid do to deserve this?"
It's later discovered that the loner liked a certain type of music, violent games, or picked up on some extreme philosophy from the internet.
So somehow it is concluded that the reason that the loner shot up the school wasnt becuase he was bullied into a corner by the "In" crowd and went to the extreme to protect himself, it was becuase of his taste in music, video games, or his way of thinking.
Now I'm not saying that the "In" crowd in this story deserved to be hurt or killed but at the same time they are not only victims here. Perhaps if they hadn't bullied him he wouldn't have gone off the deep end.
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Maybe a stiff penalty...
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Violence
I am not a violent person, nor do I condone real life violence, in fact, I am completely against any kind of real violence and hate to see people hurt. Even damaged property saddens me.
Now, one thing I am completely against is censorship. I firmly believe that parents who limit their children by not allowing them to play certain games or watch certain movies are not doing the kids any favours. Based on my own upbringing, and that of anyone I know who also grew up avidly playing video games I have never ever seen any real violence induced by any of this. I have seen however, seen a lot of violence, none of which was related to games, movies or music*.
The problem? The illusion that any of this is responsible for violence. It deterrs from the real underlying issues at hand. Segregated cultures, racism, and the "rub it in your face" wealth that occurs most noticeably in the USA.
What do I mean by "rub itin your face" wealth? Simple, you're at a traffic light, you're in an avg car, someone pulls up next to you in a fancy car and blurts out something to make you feel worse about yourself. These kinds of things makes youths pursue violence.
I remember growing up in Miami, gangs were rampant. What did those ultra violent kids want? Power, respect and money.
I think if you asked any gang member whether he thought playing violent videogames or listening to certain music made them act the way they did they would probably laugh at you.
*I have to agree on one thing though, certain music might hype you up for a certain situation, playing a certain game or watching a movie might give you ideas about how to do a certain deed.
Certain things in society are far more destructive than media. Alcohol, drugs, racism, and abuse of power.
If we remove violence from all sports and media (games, movies, music) and then perhaps the youths will be left with only 2 thing to do, fight and fornicate each other to death.
As parents what do I suggest you do? Unfortunately I have no idea. You don't raise your kids. As soon as your kids start to spend more time outside of the house, they are no longer being educated by you. They are brought up by their peers and heavily influenced by the world (the real world, not the fictional one that just simulates the real world) around them.
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video games banning
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