Amazon.com Gets In Trouble For Cockfighting?

from the going-after-the-wrong-party dept

Wed, Jul 19th 2006 3:19am — Mike Masnick

Days after YouTube is mistakenly blamed for the copyright infringement of others, now comes the news that Amazon.com is about to be sued for offering cockfighting magazines (no seriously). Yes, the Humane Society claims that Amazon is breaking the Animal Welfare Act, which "prohibits the use of the U.S. mail for the purpose of promoting or furthering animal fighting activities." Of course, again, we should ask if Amazon.com is really the proper target. Yes, they do offer these magazines (I checked and am now somewhat worried about what Amazon's recommendation engine is going to start popping up for me...), but similar to YouTube, they're really just the platform. It appears that the magazine subscriptions are provided through a third party (Magazine Express) that simply uses Amazon as their storefront to offer various magazine subscriptions. Shouldn't the Humane Society target the publishers of these magazines rather than Amazon? In the meantime, Amazon has responded, claiming that customers should be able to determine on their own what's appropriate to purchase.

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48 Comments

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dorpus, 19 Jul 2006 @ 3:46am

Should Amazon Sell Kiddie Porn?
Amazon is also the largest distributor of kiddie porn in Japan, like this one of a 12-year-old girl forced to take off her clothes. Are they still just a "platform", with no responsibility over the morality of their content?
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John, 19 Jul 2006 @ 3:56am

Re: Should Amazon Sell Kiddie Porn?
Once again, dorpus reading comprehension fails him. The magazines in question are offered by a third party -- not by Amazon.

Second, shouldn't the blame fall on the publisher of the content, not the platform that sells it?

You say "morality of their content," but that's the point: it's not their content.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 3:57am

I am now suing Techdirt for the link that a user published through the comment system that pointed to immoral content. >.>

I wonder how you found that link :/, had you found it through a new source an article link would've been much better... and help me sleep at night :P
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xhi, 19 Jul 2006 @ 4:29am

You can’t possibly claim for a moment that amazon.com have no responsibility or reason to monitor the content displayed and sold through and on their site. When we’re talking about something that breaks laws, such as selling Child Pornography, Copied Movies, or Copied Software. It’s amazon's responsibility to prevent these from been sold on there “marketplace”.

However, when it’s morally questionable material for example, There are some that may be offended by books that claim the earth was not created in seven days, on the assumption that these books will alter their religious beliefs. Or for example, a book that urges people to commit suicide. While these could be considered morally questionable. Amazon is correct in saying that its up to the person buying the book as to whether they take an interest in it or not.
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MEoip, 19 Jul 2006 @ 4:51am

Censorship is the obvious answer. Why have net neutrality when we can have net censorship; ignorance and protection is always better, if you don’t give me the choice I cannot be wrong.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 5:11am

Re: Should Amazon Sell Kiddie Porn?
Don't forget the age of consent in Japan is quite low, for some things as low as 12
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JustMe, 19 Jul 2006 @ 5:15am

You no longer see the rash of illegal copies of Windows OS or other software on eBay. Why? Rather than pointing fingers they did something about it by more strict rules and enforcement of these rules. Granted, it is not completely stopped but there are fewer violations of this today than a few years ago. When Amazon finds someone in violation of one of their rules like this then tough action is necessary.
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Phil Hatio, 19 Jul 2006 @ 5:26am

Why not just ship with
FedEx or UPS or DHL or one of the other 8 options Amazon offers alternative to the USPS. Surely the Animal Welfare Act can't prohibit using a private company's services.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 5:46am

Re: Should Amazon Sell Kiddie Porn?
Different countries have different standards.
Not every country on earth is so perverted they see "porn" in every nude image.
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Gabriel, 19 Jul 2006 @ 5:51am

once again
its crazy how people make a living off suing people.
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Drama2Sell, 19 Jul 2006 @ 5:51am

Wow
Ummmm, is nobody else going to comment that there is A MAGAZINE FOR COCKFIGHTING!? I mean, jeez, has micro-publishing really hit that large--where there is a publication dedicated to this activity.

What else are these people subscribing to? BearBaiting Today, The Ratter Weekly.

Sorry, just suprised me was all.
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Anonymous Asian, 19 Jul 2006 @ 5:59am

$10 ...
just gimme $10 on the cock with the big head ...
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ibeetle, 19 Jul 2006 @ 6:01am

How is cockfighting inhumane?
How is cockfighting inhumane?

I am not into that sort of thing, but I say if two men want to fight that way let them.

They have boxing magazines. Wrestling magazines, so why not cockfighting magazines. However, showing two men cockfighting I would think those magazines would be behind the counter.
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nunya_bidness, 19 Jul 2006 @ 6:03am

WTF
Untill now I didn't think cockfighting had anything to do with birds.
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discojohnson, 19 Jul 2006 @ 6:29am

Re:
It’s amazon's responsibility to prevent these from been sold on there “marketplace”.

shut up. if you go to a flea market and some guy is selling bootleg dvds alongside legit dvds, is the flea market responsible for this guy? no, because he signed up saying he's legal. the magazine firm doesn't deal in exclusively cockfighting mags. people like you lobby for unreasonable burdens on companies to monitor absolutely everything "for the children."
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discojohnson, 19 Jul 2006 @ 6:31am

Re:
eBay doesn't monitor that--Microsoft does. I just sold a copy of Office 2k3 Pro Academic Price. Because there are some additional rules for selling the Academic Price version, I was contacted by MS stating that I have to verify the person was a student, teacher, or one of 10 other qualified people to purchase it. Why MS? Because eBay can't monitor every auction, nor can Amazone monitor every item on everyone's storefront.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 7:01am

Re: Should Amazon Sell Kiddie Porn?
You reject. The only thing controversial about that book is the cover...and you probably already know that and are just trying to stir up trouble. It's a collection of photos taken during a summer of the life of a 12 year old girl.

Granted, the cover is suggestive...and the publisher is taking a lot of heat for it in Japan. But it's not "kiddy porn", and it's not "a 12 year old girl being forced to take off her clothes." Damn sensationalist.

You probably had to search a LOT to find this "example", which seems to suggest that amazon does NOT deal in child pornography.

I'll leave you to your cockfighting.
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ben, 19 Jul 2006 @ 7:05am

Are you sure it's porn?
I used Google's translator (even though Japanese to English is still in BETA) to actually read the listing for that "kiddie porn" book at amazon.co.jp.

It seems that it's not really porn, just really young teenagers in swimsuits, just like the freaks in the United States do.

Oh, and isn't USPS its own entity now instead of a government agency?
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Raekwon, 19 Jul 2006 @ 7:12am

Re:
http://www.anu.edu.au/mail-archives/link/link0205/0308.html

Found on the Macintouch (www.macintouch.com) list

A recent(when this was posted) NewsForge posting describes a Microsoft software piracy
conviction in France, ironic in view of Microsoft's vehement
anti-piracy stance:

"Did you know Microsoft was convicted of software piracy last year by
a French court? Not many people do. The Commercial Court of Nanterre
fined Microsoft 3 million francs because it illegally included
another company's proprietary source code in SoftImage 3D, a
top-of-the-line animation package.
The only authoritative report on the event was written by Lionel
Berthomier and first published in the French paper, Le Monde
Informatique. An English version was reprinted at PCWorldMalta on
November 28, 2001 -- about two months after the court's decision.
Both Le Monde Informatique and PCWorldMalta are affiliated with IDG,
the parent of InfoWorld and LinuxWorld. Yet, neither of these sites
published a word about Microsoft's conviction on September 27, 2001."
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nunya_bidness, 19 Jul 2006 @ 7:17am

Re: Re: Should Amazon Sell Kiddie Porn?
When reading this forum, bear in mind the a few names will repeatedly appear that only try to stir up trouble, and are always slightly off topic. Don't let it get to you. Nontheless, I love your reply.
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Mooollattta, 19 Jul 2006 @ 7:18am

Humane? I had chicken for dinner last night. Animals kill eachother all the time. Just because a few fanatics band together they think there opinions are valid and that they're not the laughing stock of most educated peoples. "Oh the poor animals!" Don't eat them then, I think they're delicious.

MILLIONS of chickens in america are in 1x1' Boxes, nailed to the floor, and are fed to what you'd consider morbid obesity. If a few of these animals, yes I know, it's a rooster, not a chicken, but if a few of these animals get the chance to fight for their lives rather than never having a chance, what's so wrong about that? Go after Perdue, Tyson, Shit go after the Colonel.

My real suggestion, Jump off a bridge.

Cock Fighting? Sounds like something my Uncle Travis and Beeboo do on a friday night.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 7:33am

Re: How is cockfighting inhumane?
um... cockfighting are two chickens fighting each other.. not people
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Hooah, 19 Jul 2006 @ 7:55am

Amazon's supposed child pornography
The link which the first poster gives under the assumption that it is child porn has mistaken. That is actually a bathing suit collection. Here is a quote that is translated out of Japanese.

"As for the photograph of the cover, the just a little child pornographic [tsu] [po] it is and is but (you have not seen but) content, that much without being radical, the shank.
Simply, [egu] it is in the swimming wear photograph and the like of part and there is also a photograph which is taken with angle, but.
Because of that, the person who shows the rejection symptom it is many in the person and the woman who purely like the actress forming sea child probably will be.
Basically, the beauty of beauty girl actress of 12 years old was expressed, it is to be normal photograph collection but…."

So while basing a book on its cover is normal, in this case it is misleading.
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wolff000, 19 Jul 2006 @ 7:58am

Cockfighting is the most inhumane thing I have eve
Yes I have seen a cockfight in person and it is disgusting. They equip each bird with razors or just sharpen thier highly overgrown claws. They then irritate the brids to the point they attack anything that gets near them. Both birds almost always die from the wounds. This is a revolting thing to do to a living being. As far as boycotting chicken farms I do. They treat animals poorly as well. I only eat chicken that comes from free range birds. These chickens live lives rather well compared to places like Tyson of KFC farms. Thay have normal size chicken coops to live in and are not as obese since they can exercise. Granted even free range has issues but our meat has to scome from somewhere. Back to the topic at hand. Amazon is not responsible for what third parties post. Its the same as trying to sue tech dirt for what I am posting. For Amazon to police its sight to exclude any "morally" questionable content would take an army of people. Prices would skyrocket and they would be out of business. That and who deems something moral. Saying something is immoral is only your own personal opinion. It changes dramtically from person to person, coutnry to country, and religion to religion. The only feasible way to have no "morally" questionable content is to have no content at all. A practice that wouldn't work well for a company trying to make money.
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Skytech, 19 Jul 2006 @ 8:00am

How is cockfighting inhumane?
I think we should look into lawsuits against microsoft, Mozilla and other web browsers for allowing people to use their product to view porn and gamble..Isn't it there responsability to not allow thier product to be a medium for that as well? You have to see my point, if we blame the site then we can't stop there. we have to follow it the whole way down....what's next? take the P. O. R. N. keys of the keyboard....sheesh people just hunt down the offenders and pop them... enough said.
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FarmerJohn, 19 Jul 2006 @ 8:02am

Isn't Another Way to Say
Cockfighting or chicken choking - about the same isn't it?
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Raul, 19 Jul 2006 @ 8:21am

Re: Cockfighting is the most inhumane thing I have
Havig grown up in a country where cock fighting is legal, let me clarify that both roosters don not die from their wounds, nor is death of the roster the desiered outcome.

General coment directed at everyone- please answer this since when are we appliying 'human' termens to food? why is it 'inhumane' to watch animal fights? how diferrent is that from boxing? there are rules in both to protect the fighters from death, but it still happens, so it happenes more often in cock fights, wow now tha is inhumane.

If this rant ofended you, good, get a life.
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dorpus, 19 Jul 2006 @ 8:36am

Re: Re: Should Amazon Sell Kiddie Porn?
You reject. The only thing controversial about that book is the cover...and you probably already know that and are just trying to stir up trouble. It's a collection of photos taken during a summer of the life of a 12 year old girl.

Here is another example of a 13-year-old girl. Do you deny this is pornography also?

You probably had to search a LOT to find this "example", which seems to suggest that amazon does NOT deal in child pornography.

No, it's very easy to find on amazon if you type in "12 years old". I found out about because people were talking about it on Japanese news forums.
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dorpus, 19 Jul 2006 @ 8:36am

Re: Re: Re: Should Amazon Sell Kiddie Porn?
The link didn't show up right, it's

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4778100948/250-4359562-0905865?v=glance&n=465392
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BobbieJo, 19 Jul 2006 @ 9:05am

Kiddie Porn vs cock fighting
I thought this thread was about Amazon and selling magazines on cock fighting. Then this Anonymous coward comes on and says he is suing Techdirt for the link another person put in his comment. WELL no one forced the Anonymous coward to follow the link to VIEW the kiddie porn. If this subject upset you so much, why on earth would you follow the link to check it out???? I don't think kiddie porn is the way to go, but this thread didn't start out on that subject. I was interested in reading the treads about cock fighting.... Companies can choose what they allow to be sold through their websites and under their name. If they choose to sell it then don't buy it. Or send them an e-mail stating your concerns about what they are selling.

by Anonymous Coward on Jul 19th, 2006 @ 3:57am

I am now suing Techdirt for the link that a user published through the comment system that pointed to immoral content. >.>

I wonder how you found that link :/, had you found it through a new source an article link would've been much better... and help me sleep at night :P
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 9:36am

Re: Re: Cockfighting is the most inhumane thing I
The boxers have a choice, the animals don't. Just change roosters for your pet dog and see if you like it as much.

And I don't think they are saying animals are human, just that taking pleasure from animal cruelty is inhuman.

As for Amazon, they shouldn't be held responsible for "immoral" content as long as it is not illegal.
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AnonCow, 19 Jul 2006 @ 9:49am

Re: BobbieJo
Are you serious? He was being sarcastic about suing Techdirt, geez how stupid are you?
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Yakov, 19 Jul 2006 @ 10:02am

Simple
Guys and gals if any read techdirt, why does everything have to evolve to the slipery slope argument, if they allow japanese swimsuit books/child porn what ever you call them, then how can they ban cockfighting, lets stop comparing these 2 things and move on.
On the concept of cockfighting, your brain will not explode by having 2 ideas in it with differring views -- i don't want to see cockfighting, and don't want to subscribe to the magazines, but if someone else does -- thats fine. Wow my brain is still intact, let me try the next one. I don't aprove with these "sports" cockfighting, dog fighting, but I don't want the government or the court system to step in and stop it -- damn I said that and I'm still alive. Wow, I must be odd or something 'cause now days if you are capable of having 2 apposing thoughts in your head -- like I'm against the war, but support the troops -- you're treated as an alien.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 10:12am

So Yahoo profited (I would imagine they get a cut of the sale when someone buys it, otherwise it wouldn't be on their site) from something that violates the law and you are ok with that?

Could Amazon list body parts to be sold, and since they don't actually sell the product (just take a small cut) thats ok?

Slippery slope? I think not.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 10:35am

Re: Re: Re: Should Amazon Sell Kiddie Porn?
So pictures of fully clad girls qualify as "Kiddy Porn"? You must be the kind of guy that parents worry about on public beaches...god knows what you think of all those teenagers and children wearing BIKINIS.

You are ignoring cultural context too. I bet there are plenty of things in American culture that people in other countries (like Japan) would misunderstand and be offended by...

"OMG! Amazon is selling books about how great it was when Hiroshima was bombed!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345361350/sr=8-13/qid=1153329941/ref=sr_1_13/103-0879579- 8656663?ie=UTF8 "

And you neglect language differences trying to get us to make wild assumptions based on the cover of a book or a few translated words.

"Amazon is marketing books on how to make and use atom bombs!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0737714131/sr=8-3/qid=1153330301/103-0879579-8656663?redire ct=true "

Maybe it's time for you to get away from the internet and into some therapy?
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Amos, 19 Jul 2006 @ 10:48am

Re:
The "sport" of cockfighting is still legal in 2 US states (New Mexico and Luisiana). Depictions of cockfighting are not illegal anywhere in the US. There is nothing illegal about producing or buying or reading a magazine devoted to the topic.

But even if it were illegal...let's think about Amazon's role in this. Imagine a bunch of people offered you money to set up little booths on your property to sell items. You get part of the profit, and they promise you they're only selling legit stuff. But it turns out someone is actually selling crack cocaine. Do you think YOU should get sued because of this? Would YOU somehow be a "drug dealer" because some scumbag tricked you into letting him sell his drugs on your property?

Tens of thousands of people sell stuff through Amazon's storefront. Every one of them has to agree to the TOS. How is it Amazon's fault if some creep turns out to be lying?
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nunya_bidness, 19 Jul 2006 @ 10:54am

Re: tard
You just like to see your meaningless thoughts in print, and further confuse the issue. Did you even read the article? If I wasn't so lazy I would explain it to you. RTFA
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 11:09am

Lets think about Amazon's role in this. Bars get shut down because drugs are sold on their property. Now lets talk about personal responsibility. Where is Amazon's? They accept money yet don't check where that money is coming from? If I came to you and said I would pay you a thousand dollars a month to install a program on your computer that uses your broadband connection, tell you it won't affect your use, but refuse to tell you what that program would be doing, would you accept it?

Amazon (or maybe Ebay) got into trouble for listing Nazi items, and the companies had no problem removing that content, even though in the US the sale of those items is not against the law. How is this different?
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Amos, 19 Jul 2006 @ 12:06pm

Re:
Everyone who signs up to use Amazon's merchant service signs a TOS, which means they say they aren't selling anything illegal. If they turn out to be selling something illegal, they should get in trouble for it because they defrauded Amazon and are breaking the law.

Now, if Amazon is alerted to the problem and doesn't do anything about it, THEN they have some responsibility. But dude...how are they supposed to magically know when a few people out of TENS OF THOUSANDS are lying to them??

You should check up on the Nazi-Ebay thing:
http://www.internetnews.com/ec-news/article.php/4_758221

If something violates the law or site policy, companies like Amazon and Ebay do something about it WHEN THEY FIND OUT ABOUT IT. But if it's just something that YOU find offensive, they don't have to do anything about it... I guess free speech is great until someone says something you don't like.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2006 @ 5:00pm

Amos, don't you have some cookies to make? I suppose banks shouldn't be worried about large transactions because they have lots of customers and their customers shouldn' t break the law, right? Lets just throw out the AML and KYC laws, right? WallMart shouldn't worry about illegal aliens cleaning their stores because they don't work for them, right?

It has nothing to do with free speech you arrogant ahole, it has to do with following the law. I could care less about animal rights (although if you are into abusing animals, there is something wrong with you) but people and companies still have to follow the law.

I am so sick of internet assholes that think that technology should be an excuse to not follow the same rules as others.
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Mischa, 21 Jul 2006 @ 10:26pm

Re: Kiddie Porn vs cock fighting
Umm. He was joking. You did see the ":P" didn't you?
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Ali, 23 Jul 2006 @ 3:04am

Re: How is cockfighting inhumane?
Hi! Yeah, sad to say, there is a magazine for cockfighting in the Philippines because this kind of activity is not illegal in our country.
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Al, 23 Jul 2006 @ 3:07am

Re: Wow
Hi! There are some cockfighting magazines that are being sold in the Philippines and they are selling well because they have their own market since this activity is not illegal in our country.
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Star, 11 Aug 2006 @ 10:46pm

Re: Cockfighting is the most inhumane thing I have
This is not about "morality". Cockfighting is an illegal activity in all but two states. Morality may be tied to personal opinion, but the law is not.
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Les, 18 Aug 2006 @ 9:41am

Amazon.com peddling Cockfighting Magazines
OF COURSE HSUS is going after the actual publishers, as well as cockfighters themselves!!! But clearly Amazon.com is responsible for their part in supporting this brutal bloodsport, and should be held accountable.
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Star, 18 Aug 2006 @ 10:12pm

Re: Re: Cockfighting is the most inhumane thing I
Raul - you ask how is cockfighting inhumane? and you don't see how it is different from boxing?
You can't be serious! Ok...I'll give you some leeway considering you grew up in a country where it is legal and perhaps a cultural activity...so perhaps you have been imprinted. But seriously - ignorance cannot excuse you for long!

If it is so similar to boxing (first we must assume that the birds give consent)...then why aren't we tying blades to the gloves of De la Hoya and Mayorga?
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Jammie Roles, 28 Jan 2010 @ 7:52am

Cockfighting is not a postive thing to be around...but I mean gessss...its as natural for game chickens to fight to the dealth as a cat to eat a mouse....and these animal rights wackos push it to felony charges? Don't even get that for driving around blistered drunk DUI? And to my understanding there is nothing illegal about raising chickens.......or bulldogs for that matter. Out law bulldog pet magizines as well? Anyhow..seems alittle overboard.
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Antonio, 1 Feb 2010 @ 11:48pm

Well...
Before you Westerners BLAST us for cockfighting, why don't you guys take a look at your own culture - animal cruelty is just as RIFE as it is in places where cockfighting is practices: bullfighting, seal clubbing, all the stuff derived from animal farms they sell at fashion boutiques, dogfighting, agribusiness industrial farms and the list goes on and on!

Correct your society's problems first before coming after ours! :D
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