Who Do You Blame When Your Virtual Bank Fails?
from the should-have-thought-about-that-earlier dept
It's not like there haven't been warnings about the blurring boundary between online games and the real world when it comes to the legal system. In all of these online worlds, especially when real money gets involved, people just aren't clear as to whether or not in game actions have real world legal implications. On the one hand, you have people who will say that if something of real value is "stolen" in the game, that's a crime. Something of value has been lost. However, this gets tricky when you realize that some online games have theft or other crimes as a part of the gameplay on purpose. If stealing goods from other players is a part of the game, how can it be illegal outside of the game? So, even if it's not a major part of the game -- or if it's a programming flaw that allows it -- how can it be fair to say it's "illegal"? So, now, take that same issue to a larger scale. What if someone sets up an in-game bank? Then, it turns out the bank is actually a scam, and the owner simply takes all the money people gave him and runs? That's apparently exactly what happened recently. It may be tempting to say the guy committed real fraud -- but, again, the game let him do this. There was no guarantee within the game that the bank was legit. There was no FDIC "backing" the bank. There was a very real risk in putting money into that bank, but people did so by choice, as part of the game. The real issue is that too many online worlds are really just punting on the issue of an in-game legal system or conflict resolution system. They're forgetting that they've basically built a world -- and that world needs some sort of legal system as well. If there's a problem, then let the in-game mechanisms sort out the results or punishment. Because, if there isn't an official law enforcement/judicial process, you'll get the next best thing: an online mafia who will run the online world for you. Either way, that's still better than cluttering up the real world courts over these types of disputes.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Legal System?
Why program it if you can socially engineer it?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Legal System?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
By the way
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Not a solution
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Leagal Precidence
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Is murder ok then?
Player 2 comes along and steals those items (or items bought from the proceeds) from Player 1.
Now people want to say that Player 2 is guilty of REAL theft?
Ok, I'll buy that... Just as soon as Player 1 gets arrested for REAL murder, cruelty to animals and/or assult.
Is the difference here really that Player 2 was 'nice' enough to NOT take Player 1's character's life at the time the goods were harvested?
...or am I off base and killing isn't a part of these games? Last I knew it was...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Is murder ok then?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
For the record
=)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I thought everquest was one of the games that they do not actually let you sell your account and items and will delete your account if they find out what account is doing it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Har har har
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Thatd make the games so much more fun.......
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
sell castle on ebay?!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: sell castle on ebay?!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
That being said, I've about had it up to here (*raises hand above head*) with online game worlds. If people are being allowed to open banks and take people's money, something is seriously wrong, and I don't think it's a lack of a legal system. The problem is that way too many people are living in a fantasy world, and they need to start living in reality again. Anybody who is stupid enough to put money into a bank in a video game that has no insurance backing of any sort deserves to be ripped off. Honestly, everytime I think the phrase "common sense" is making a revival, I see something that just further reinforces how much it's actually going the other way.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Oh O.K. well just as soon as George Dubyah Bush starts to run our country (effectively), he will assuredly be exempt from the jokes of him ruining our country and the world as well.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward
I was merely mocking everyone who DOES blame the president for everything. Bitch.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
It is a legal matter
It seems that this person possessed something of value. Even if it was a virtual "thing"; it exitsts and has an intrinsic value.
If the game's server crashes and that thing of value is lost forever, someone (the server admins) are responsible for that loss. Unless there is some sort of release form that is signed by the server user, whoever runs that server is responsible.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: It is a legal matter
It seems that this person possessed something of value. Even if it was a virtual "thing"; it exitsts and has an intrinsic value.
And these words in bold print, class, is the very definition of an oxi-moron...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: It is a legal matter
First, the word you are trying to use is "oxymoron" ...moron.
Second, the word "virtual" in this context is not imaginary but rather pertaining to computers and computer content which makes it very REAL ...moron.
Third, you're just a moron.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
A Fool And His Money......
The old saying continues to be true.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
But seriously, the programmers/company created this universe, they are responsible for governing it.
If you aren't supposed to in-game kill, steal, scam, etc. the programmers/company need to make it impossible or suspend/terminate guilty accounts.
There is no law against cheating in a video game and lets pray to god there never is.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Reality vs. Fantasy.....we learned the difference
How is that fair? Unless the admins blatanly ignored the condition of their servers they should not be responsible when one decides to spontaneuosly crash. Computers and servers are still not very reliable and if they're doing everything in their power to save it and it still crashes that isn't their fault. Some computers and servers can't be saved.
As for the bank issue: Still a little confused, did they put real money into the bank or the game money? If it was game money then what is the big deal? I game an awful lot but when I lose game money due to an error i make, an ingame element, or someone else ripping me off I don't call the police and raging on about how I was just ripped off by a video game, hehe.
If virtual "theft" is treated as a real-life crime then video games should stop being made all together. The reason is that the lawyers of the monsters killed would start popping up, you'd bearrested for murder, assault, (technically) grave robbing, and being a public nuisance.
Where would the line be drawn?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
You have to be joking
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: You have to be joking
Just saying is all....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
EverQuest ruined my life
It's a F--ing game.. Get over it...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
GAY!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Perspective
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Just so everyone knows
" ha ha gimme you money and all your virtual dancing girls cuz I gonna be ritch!"
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Just so everyone knows
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Perhaps if you had done your homework...
What we have on line are multiple microcosms of human interaction with little fear of repercussion. The State of Nature writ in glorious realtime.
IF man in the state of nature be so free, as has been said; if he be absolute lord of his own person and possessions, equal to the greatest, and subject to no body, why will he part with his freedom? Why will he give up this empire, and subject himself to the dominion and control of any other power? To which it is obvious to answer, that though in the state of nature he hath such a right, yet the enjoyment of it is very uncertain, and constantly exposed to the invasion of others: for all being kings as much as he, every man his equal, and the greater part no strict observers of equity and justice, the enjoyment of the property he has in this state is very unsafe, very unsecure. This makes him willing to quit a condition, which, however free, is full of fears and continual dangers: and it is not without reason, that he seeks out, and is willing to join in society with others, who are already united, or have a mind to unite, for the mutual preservation of their lives, liberties and estates, which I call by the general name, property. (2nd Tr., §123)
Wonder when we'll start to see reports of spontaneous gov'ts based upon social contract... whoops the Guilds are already in place aren't they?
Brilliant.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Perhaps if you had done your homework...
Beautiful man...just beautiful...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Perhaps if you had done your homework...
This is why online worlds fascinate me so much. Some of these dynamics are absolutely mind blowing. I honestly haven’t spent too much time in these imaginary worlds, but Second Life is the most interesting I’ve seen. There’s no point, other than interaction (at least as far as I can see).
I wonder if some academics are studying online worlds out there... because I think they should.
A lot of info on sociology and group dynamics could be garnered from that kind of research.
Intriguing.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
get over real life
So, following that logic if someone puts months of time into building some virtual castle and then wants to sell it to another human who does not want to expend the effort to build it themself, they can come to some agreement on the price and make the transaction. This is no different than a craftman selling his goods at an auction.
The arguement here is not whether or not people who play video games are cool or not, it is how should these transactions be allowed and protected. Just because some people choose to value going out in the real world as being a better human, does not mean everyone agrees with that. Some people do not do well in the real world, while others can do both very effectively, but insulting people for having a particular hobby will not help this argument at all. People collect stamps, they run marathons, they play sports, they watch TV, they watch movies, they play video games. It is no one's right to imposed some ranking of real life value of those activities on each other and in doing so you just sound like a biggot.
In my opinion these games SHOULD have some in game mechanic to deal with such transaction and thus protect against scams and frauds. As someone already said these in game items do have intrinsic value, both to the seller and to the buyer. This makes them valuable just like anything else.
This article was trying to point out that because of the lack of these in game mechanics, the players are foced to use black market methods to trade and barter these items which opens them up to scams. Who is responsible? The game makers are. Just like when the government imposed laws agains drinking. Did this mean everyone gave up alcohol and moved on, calling all that continued to drink alcohol idiots? No, in fact a HUGE underground organized crime regime was formed to continue the sales of alcohol, costing that same government huge amounts of money to track down and punish. We all know how that ended.
This is a valuable discussion because lots of money that flows through our economy is based in these virtual worlds. Companies like Blizzard (creater of world of warcraft) make over 50 million a month in revenue from said games and even more money is spent in black market trades that happen outside of the game to sell items, characters, and even full accounts. Just like the prohibition, its time for the authorities of these worlds to choose which is a better solution, policing and punishing the offenders, or allowing these transactions and taxing them in order to fund protective services to help the community.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
A mere reflection.....
http://www.iwantmyess.com/?p=78
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
#29 #30
So by this logic using "oxi-moron" I too was using text sarcasm to call you an Oxi (using term to make note of your oxi pad face) and a moron; for using, in any since justified or not, the words Virtual and Exists in the same sentence to describe the same object. So in conclusion of this retort, I respond to your school yard antics once again calling upon the power of text sarcasm with... You "Lay Person" are a poop head stinky face pants head.
With a follow up 8p
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
In-game does not me Real World
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Screwed over
"By playing [the game], you understand that all items, monies, landmasses and structures are property of [the software company]. You further understand that any off-world profit making should comply with [insert country] laws, and you will not hold [software company] responsible for any bugs, glitches, crashes that may occur in [the game]. In otherwords, YOU RUN THE RISK B!TCH. Press OK to continue."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
WoW rules yet again
All these other MMORPGs need to follow Blizzard's lead and remove the player looting mechanics and whatever else they allow that makes these discussions even relevant. The fact is this whole discussion is irrelevant in the context of WoW. The only bad thing about WoW is that some people spend a little too much time playing it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
re: WoW
I like the idea of a game being that open, and if that means that I have to guard my pockets just like in real life than so be it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: WoW
Buying gold is not that big of a deal since people have to farm for the resources anyway, which we all do to make in-game money for ourselves. They don't hack the system to steal gold, they obtain it legitimately, it's just the concept of selling that gold for real money that's questionable. But it still doesn't harm players directly since you will not login one day to find out someone stole all your gold, that just doesn't happen AFAIK.
I used to love Diablo up until I decided to try it online, only to get ganked before the load screen even completed and all my crap was gone. I never played it online again, just played against the computer or with friends. The fact that this is not possible in WoW is one of the main reasons why I continue to play it 3-4 hours a day even after a year. BTW I have a life, I play late at night after the wife & kids are asleep, from 10pm-1am or so. I also shower regularly. I just don't sleep much...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: It is a legal matter
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
"Hit it like you mean it....."
If ur not smart enough to see thur a scam.....
Then u deserve ti be ripped off.
"Life has no aggro rest!!!"
[ link to this | view in chronology ]