Forget Fake Rolexes, Are There Really 3,000 Fake Chinese Companies In Silicon Valley?

from the seems-like-overkill dept

Mon, Nov 6th 2006 4:12am — Mike Masnick

Earlier this year, we wrote about how some scammers in China, rather than just counterfeiting products had set up an entire counterfeit version of Japanese electronics giant NEC in China. It appears that there may be a different kind of counterfeit problem in the US. The Raw Feed highlights one snippet from a month-old article suggesting that China has set up over 3,000 fake companies in Silicon Valley alone, as front organizations to steal technology from various companies and send it back to China. Economic espionage, of course, is nothing new at all, and is quite common among most industrialized nations. However, it still seems fairly astounding to think that the efforts to deceive would require upwards of 3,000 fake companies in a single region.

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84 Comments

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Jezsik, 6 Nov 2006 @ 4:28am

What's so odd about that?
U.S. firms have set up thousands of fake companies in Caribbean islands to steal tax dollars.
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Chris, 6 Nov 2006 @ 4:43am

What has this world become to earn money! Back in the days, things like this wouldn't happen!
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Sean, 6 Nov 2006 @ 5:13am

say what?
Back in what day? History is replete with dubious characters made legitimate. History is written by the winners.

Or were you being sarcastic? It's so hard to tell.
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Amelia in Michigan, 6 Nov 2006 @ 5:25am

Re: What's so odd about that?
Although 2 wrongs don't make a right, I agree with you 100%
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Leslie Nichols, 6 Nov 2006 @ 5:32am

Re: ???Back in the day???
How old are you and where were you living and in what time zone? Annanias and Saphira sold there land and then kept back money, a scheme to get on top and to hold back money, hmm, sounds like deceit. And how about Jacob and his mothers deceit and treachery in their diabolical plan to steal Esaus birthright by deceicving Issac. These accounts of, Back in the day "trash dealings" can be found in Genesis 27 and Acts 5. Now that was certainly back in the day. How you used this statement is beyond me, but it is certainly nothing you and I or anyone we have personally known has ever witnessed
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 5:56am

Fiction
We try to argue FACTS here.
Not make-believe.
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Leslie Nichols, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:02am

FACTS
An entire civilizations well documented history is not FACTS? Hmm, You obviously live in the land of make believe and tomorrow you will have no yesterday because if it is well documented their will be a sceptic to say that documented historical data on an entire civilization is only "make-believe". But then perhaps you won't even be able to read this because you don't even exist.
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Jeff Jones, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:02am

Re: Re: ???Back in the day???
Maybe it was back in the day of Adam and Eve before they ate that darn forbidden fruit.

Or maybe back in the day of his childhood when things were still innocent and the world was small.
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Leslie Nichols, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:07am

There has never been innocence even for a child and certainly this has never been a small world especially to a child.
Facts are his back in the day statement. As if he remembers such a time.
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John, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:09am

Re: What's so odd about that?
"stealing tax dollars" needs elaboration. It would be easy to argue that those tax dollars are indeed being stolen from them in the first place.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:09am

Re: Re: What's so odd about that?
Did you mean two Wongs don't make a Wright? =D LOL!!
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Leslie Nichols, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:11am

I am laghing Annonymous coward.
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:12am

If by "well documented history" you mean stories past on and changed to suit personal opinion and beliefs of the STORYTELLER to control god fearing ignorant people afraid that if he/she steals they will be struck down by lightning.
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:14am

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.11/atheism.html
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Billybob, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:15am

Re:
Wow someone is first, start a new rule and ban him!!!
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:16am

the retards are actually starting to look like retards.
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Jack, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:18am

Little g
Mike,
The fact that you spelled God with a little "g" tells the whole story.
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mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:19am

because its not worth the indication.
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Leslie Nichols, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:30am

Of course
You are so right, I submitt to your intelligence and intelect, as I have already said, even those who may read this in cyber space or even hard copy today or tommorrow will know that this is only a fabricated converstation and really never took place, it has only been documented to prove that we really don't exist and this really has no relevance. Actually you and I are not even really corresponding through this forum because someone else is not going to believe it has really happened. That is what really determines FACTS, in your opinion of course.
Because there are millions of people who lived and documented their history and it has been confirmed by non secular historians including ATHEIST...I would be further happy to humiliate you by citing those statements in a personal forum that would not tie up this forum...groingweery@yahoo.com
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:40am

So the mud and fountain water to heal the blind trick actually works huh?
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:44am

I can't believe that they would do this, all this time I trusted the Chinese!!! I feel dirty now..
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:46am

First off, if the bible isn't true, its still thousands of years old, meaning that someone wrote it about a true event or a fictional one. Either way, it still shows that the concept of "shady dealings" was alive and well which I beleive was the point of the original post.

Aethistism is about thinking critically, not finding a religion that doesn't worship anything.
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Dale, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:47am

Of Course
If all you need are locations verified (easily done) and people verified (questionable done) then I suggest that all Tom Clancy novels are FACT - they take place in real verifiable locations.

Maybe your book does involve some real historical locations but that does not prove a man waled on water, turned blood into wine, or that moses was several hundred years old.
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firemeg, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:51am

need a good ananolgy
arguing about god on the internet is like arguing with a paranoid schizophrenic about the voices in their head. Technically through chemical / neurological imbalances, the person does hear something, and although it's a fact that nobody else heard it, you won't convince the deluded person otherwise. Just like they won't convince you that the cat spoke to them.
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Leslie Nichols, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:03am

I am so dumb
I don't even exist. And by the way, Tom Clancys books are considered fiction even by the writer, they are just like the Bible on the best seller list. Both have something in common. The difference is in the fact of document written over thousands of years without an internet to confir with and the knowledge of collaberation and still agreeing. And this "BIBLE" has never left the best seller list since it's original publication. nuff said
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NGUVU, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:10am

Re: Re: ???Back in the day???
Shut your biblical mouth! We're talking about Chinese fronts...
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Jim, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:11am

Nice Religion Trolling, Mike...
And Leslie, you just keep taking the bait, it's kind of funny.
This is about the Chinese, not God (or god). And I say that if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, then the Chinese aren't breaking any laws. If they are caught breaking international law, prosecute. If this is a violation of U.S. law, call them on it and sanction them. Of course nobody in either of our two parties has enough sack to impose such a threat upon the largest army in the world….BTW, where’s Osama?
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NGUVU, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:13am

I wanna
...spank Leslie's a$$ with her bible...that would be so fun :)
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bodhiguy, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:32am

LOL
Am I reading this correctly, "Leslie" is referring to the great book of lies, magic, deceit, and fairy tales as "An entire civilizations well documented history".

Someone please tell me that it's just early and I misread this !
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Monarch, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:33am

Hmmm, the "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" films always tout that they are based on a real story. However, the real story is so far from the truth, that technically it is not. Basically, it was derived from two stories - one being a door-to-door salesman that was murdered in Texas, and the other the Ed Gein freak from Wisconsin who dug up dead bodies and turned them into lamp shades and clothing.

But it WAS based on a true story!!!
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UniBoy, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:41am

They don't need to spy on U.S. companies...
China is receiving all of the knowledge they need on how to move up the value chain by the legitimate role they already have in manufacturing high-tech goodies for U.S. companies and consumers.

Also, the article does not state that there are 3,000 front businesses in Silicon Valley. Rather, there are an estimated 3,000 nation-wide, and "many of them" appear to be in the Silicon Valley area. "Many" could mean 2000, 200, or 20.
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Nick, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:43am

Leslie,

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the bible but surely someone as educated as yourself and also with a knowledge of the bible and perhaps religion knows the bible is not fact.

There may be elements of the bible which are fact but overall it has undergone numerous "re-readings" which have vastly changed the histories. If history is allowed to change so dramatically over time it is not an accurate history by any means. So much of the bible was created/modified and even left out to create what those with power wanted. And lets not even get into the numerous places within the bible where the stories create numerous contradicitons.
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Wr. Wong, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:51am

Re: Re: What's so odd about that?
In this case, it appears two Wongs don't make a right. HA!
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Aryan, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:54am

Re: Of course
Leslie, can you not deviate from the original topic and make sense of what you are talking. Also, if you were refering to the bible, then you gotta be kidding me...hehe..:)
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UniBoy, 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:54am

The quest for (religious) Truth
I think the quest for truth is a life-long, personal journey. The conclusions reached are also personal.

And, while my conclusions are clearly better than all of yours, I feel no compulsion to share them with you, because, well, they are my personal conclusions.

Furthermore, since I know I am right, I am not at all threatened by the conclusions of others. Their closely held beliefs are simply not relevant to my life, so long as they do not try to somehow force them upon me (which would be an impossible goal, anyway).

So, what I am saying here, is that impassioned and pointless arguments over each others' beliefs is mostly an indication of the insecurity of the individuals holding on to those beliefs. If you cannot accept others beliefs (whilst feeling your own beliefs superior), then you are simple not secure in that which you "know."
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The Dukeman (profile), 6 Nov 2006 @ 7:57am

How big is the
While the source article referenced above states that silicon valley is the "hotbed" of this activity, it clearly states that these companies are found throughout the U.S. From the article:

"Silicon Valley is a hotbed" of economic espionage, said Don Przybyla, who heads a FBI counterintelligence unit in San Jose. The valley is home to many of the estimated 3,000 Chinese front companies nationwide set up to steal secrets and acquire technology, according to the FBI."

So the headline and the concluding statement are a little misleading.
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Jacob Buck, 6 Nov 2006 @ 8:06am

Leslie,

I hope you follow the bible and segregate yourself from society when you have your period ( because you are "unclean" ) so we normal people don't have to deal with you for at least a few days each month.

If you're a guy ( Leslie goes either way I suppose ), I hope you never "satisfied yourself", for god smote a few people for just that back in the day.

The bible is full of fairy tales with morals to teach and guide people. It is not fact. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas, either. The shepherds wouldn't have been out in the fields to see the star over Bethlehem at that time of year. Take the message, but don't be fooled into thinking that its all real.
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Jacob Buck, 6 Nov 2006 @ 8:10am

Re: The quest for (religious) Truth
I think that the urge to help poor misguided people is present in everyone ( except yourself lord uniboy ). I too have my own strong beliefs about the universe, and usually do not share them with others, but when someone makes as asinine a comment as Leslie, i fear i must help them see another point of view, or else risk the world being overrun by infuriating morons.
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Sanguine Dream, 6 Nov 2006 @ 8:17am

Re: The quest for (religious) Truth
You even for as borderline arrogant as that sounds, I kinda agree with you. I'm all for personal conclusions but if you are not willing to at least listen to the personal conclusions of others then the strength of your conviction does come into question.
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 8:24am

The problem is "beliefs" when they should have ideas.
An idea is easer to change than a belief.

Beliefs:
http://www.udel.edu/DRC/Images/world-trade-center-12.jpg
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Adam White, 6 Nov 2006 @ 8:37am

Re: Bible isn't fact
Hello All,

I wonder how many of you who are confident in stating that the Bible isn't fact have actually investigated the historical, archeological, sociological, geological, evidence or lack of evidence for your claims?

Actually, the Bible is a book of several books which contain history (yes, really), poetry, stories, analogies, allegories, civil and religious laws and predictive oracles (prophecies). So to say or not say thb Bible itself is fact is to say that Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's dream is fact. You are assigning to it a category to which it doesn't belong.

The historical parts of the Bible have never been proven untrue. We know much more about the world of Moses and Solomon and Jesus today than we did 100 years ago. And we have not learned anything to refute the dates, cities, kings or major events (wars, etc.) that are cited as history. In fact, we have learned much that substantiates it.

When it comes to Jesus, the fact is, he lived - and at the time the Bible says he lived (by the way, Christmas is not mentioned in the Bible - nor is the date Jesus was born, only the period of the census taken by Augustus [which is fact]). As to what he said and did while he lived - we can only rely on witnesses who heard and saw it to relate to us. There are four books in the Bible which relate what their authors saw and heard - either directly or from 1st hand sources - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These books are extremely reliable, from a documentary point-of-view (as we have them today), since we have fragments and copies of them that go back 1600 years. And they haven't changed in context at all from those early manuscripts. So, whether you believe what they say or not is up to you. But the Bible - in places where it CLAIMS to be factual or historical - hasn't been disproved yet.

I could say more - but I'd rather say - what on earth do the Chinese need 3000 false companies for? They could probably just by the technology under the table.
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TriZz, 6 Nov 2006 @ 8:42am

Come on now...
What does any of this have to do with the friggin article at hand? There's more drama in here right now than before opening night of The DaVinci Code.

Leslie believes what she believes - I believe what I believe as well as you all...

Mike, do you believe in ideas?
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Common Sense, 6 Nov 2006 @ 8:45am

It is true that the Bible has suffered from a few mistranslations and errors by scribes. A careful reading of extant versions of what we do have, will show that there is a very general consistency that is amazing considering the time frames and region differences. For example, if I was to say that the Bible is wrong and innacurate because one book says a field was sold for 100 shekels of silver and another books says 30 shekels of gold, I would be missing out on a lot of good teaching. That kind of 'human error' does not exactly constitute 'a book of fairy tales'.

As a physics teacher, I would gladly enlighten anyone to scientific fact of God, creation, and I would even throw in some information about Leslie's actual point, that from creation man has been corrupt. Lies, treachery, deceit, and the like, have existed for millenia. We tend to think that things were not so in 'the good ole days', but the facts are there for us whether we want to read about them in the Bible, or in world history. Things will continue to get worse, until the end.

There is an absolute truth UniBoy. To think there is anything else is very naive. All of man's ways are right in his own eyes. Defending one's belief does not mean insecurity in that belief. I believe that what I believe is 100 percent right. I would die for it. I believe that it is so right, that everyone should believe it.

No, Jesus (actually Joshua), was not born on Dec. 25th. The Bible doesn't say that He was though. In fact, the Bible doesn't say that three wise men visited Him. We assume that since there were three gifts presented, but the Bible never states it. They also were not present at the 'nativity' but came a year or two later. Let us not confuse the Bible's facts with man's traditions. Using false traditions to argue that the Bible is wrong is not exactly a just comparison.
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@$$049, 6 Nov 2006 @ 8:50am

The biblical text Leslie refered to, is corroborated by other historical non-canoncial texts. Learn to study historics; Ignoramus Unsophisticates - to all who argued about her well pointed facts.

Go China! You go ahead and break free! woohoo.
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Nick, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:05am

Common Sense
Common Sense,

Please enlighten me to the scientific fact of God, honestly.
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Common Sense, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:14am

Nick,

I'd like to prepare something for you, it's rather lengthy to post here, please reply kwalker(remove)@walkerstudiopro.com.
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@$$049, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:15am

That's the problem, you brough God into the discussion. Leslie made reference to historicaly accurate documents of "the good old days"; evidenciaries are located mostly in the Hall of Records in the associated cites that the original land claim documents were submitted. I cannot, however, state for a certainty the exact records one might call into question.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:19am

Re: Re: Re: What's so odd about that?
Haha!
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:21am

Re: Re: ???Back in the day???
Preach it brotha! Cause we all care about your biblical non-scientific views. Yeah. That's it. Riiight.
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:22am

Re: Come on now...
I know of ideas, but when you believe in an idea so strongly that you would kill/die to keep the (now belief) alive is when you have stopped thinking critically; I like to call it insanity.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:23am

Re: FACTS
I just hope you don't take the bible to be scientific, documented history cause that's just sad. A book of morality - yes. A book of verfiable scientific data which should viewed as factual - not by a long shot.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:24am

Re:
manically I assume.
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Kyle, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:24am

this is the problem
I can't believe that with such an intriguing story of international deceipt, most of the bloggers are content in arguing religion - something not even related to the topic. No wonder nothing gets done in this country, it's people like you arguing about something irrelevant to the subject at hand that take up 80% of the content. Then again, the news networks have made an entire network doing this very same thing. This whole country has to pull its head out of its a$$ and get over themselves and their pity problems like religion.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:26am

Re:
Ahh.. In our backwards country today I can't tell you how nice it is to hear someone make a rational comment surrounding this issue. Refreshing. Thank you.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:30am

Re: Little g
Yeah man. Cause typo's mean he's dumb. If you're arguments are so weak that you need to resort to mud-slinging over silly shit just to make yourself feel better about your backward beliefs than it speaks more about your small mind than his.
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Common Sense, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:31am

See, it is things like that. Now Mike is suggesting that I said I would 'kill/die' for my belief. I said that I would DIE for it. I wouldn't dare take another life. How people can argue one point by twisting another, is beyond me.

What you are feeling is called 'conviction'. When people talk about God and you feel uncomfortable, that's conviction. The pounding in your heart, the strange, uneasy feeling, it's God. Go with it. He's using this opportunity to try and reach you.

What you say Kyle is true though, we have strayed from the topic. It can hardly be helped at times though.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:32am

Re: Of course
Please take it somewhere else. You aren't going to convince anyone here.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:35am

Re:
Either way, it still shows that the concept of "shady dealings" was alive and well which I beleive was the point of the original post.

Absolutely.

Those of you still arguing this point need to take it somewhere where you can complain about it for eternity. Let it go. Nobody's mind is going to be changed here.
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Jacob Buck, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:35am

Re:
i never said that christmas or the date of jesus' birth was mentioned in the bible. i simply meant that most blindly religious believe a falsehood regarding christmas and jesus.
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Common Sense, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:37am

You know, you did it too Anonymous Coward...did I say the Bible was full of scientific facts? Or did I say that I could share scientific fact about God?

Since you mention it though, contrary to popular 'scientific evidence' of years gone by, the Bible actually teaches a spherical shape for the earth. In Isaiah 40:22 God is said to sit above “the circle of the earth” (the Hebrew word for circle can also mean a sphere). Also, in Luke 17:34–36 Christ's Second Coming is portrayed as occurring while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities — which means a rotating earth with day and night at the same time.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:39am

Re: I am so dumb
Nobody cares. Your points are not scientific nor are they insightful - they sound more like regurgitated rhetoric than anything. You are lousy at making a convincing argument and it is apparent that you don't care about spreading any Word but are more interested in making yourself feel righteous. Again, nobody cares. Take it somewhere else as it is no longer appropriate.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:40am

Re: LOL
Lol. Umm... Yup. You got it.
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Awash in Verbal Diarrhea, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:44am

WTF!?
don't any of you have real jobs to do? Floors to wash, clothes to clean, TV soap operas to watch?

As Mo used to say 'back in the old days' "Sheesh!".

(Or was it Larry...)
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Annoying Bastard, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:47am

WTFWJD?
Guys,

Y'all need to sit down, take some sedatives, or rub one out. YOU TAKE YOURSELVES TOO SERIOUSLY. SLOW YOUR ROLL. And don't forget to breathe.

To jump from economic espionage, to bible-thumping, bible-bashing, or atheism is phooking ludicrous.

Looks like it's time to take a vacation from TechDirt again. :-(
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Jacob Buck, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:49am

Re: Re: Bible isn't fact
I love how you ask "how many of you who are confident in stating that the Bible isn't fact have actually investigated the historical, archeological, sociological, geological, evidence or lack of evidence for your claims?" without following your own advice. As a person who went to a very elite Jesuit school, I am fully versed in all the world's major religions.

The four "first hand" ( and by first hand you must mean edited until the original message is hard to find ) accounts you mention that are "extremely reliable" in fact are not so. There are over 70 gospels that were written by followers of jesus, and most of them decidedly clash with what was put in the bible. These accounts are much more trustworthy, for they have not been edited and manipulated throughout the centuries, and some of them have not even been discovered until recently.

"we have fragments and copies of them that go back 1600 years"
1600 years, huh? Am i wrong, or was jesus around more like 2.000 years ago? What happened in the 400 years between?

I never said that christmas was mentioned in the bible you conclusion-drawing ignoramus.

There is a historical account of the years that methuseluh lived, so do you agree that people can grow that old?
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Rick Gutleber (profile), 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:50am

Re: Re: FACTS
Regardless of how you view the Bible, one thing you cannot deny is that these kinds of practices were not unknown thousands of years ago.

I find it amusing that so many people use this as an oppotunity to bash the Bible and its believers, which is not relevant to the conversation. What is relevant is that stories of these kinds were being written thousands of years ago, and that this kind of behavior is not new.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:51am

Re: Re: Bible isn't fact
The Bible is not fact. It is a document of belief throughout history. That beign said, just because it was written throughout history that DOES NOT MAKE THE STORIES FACTUAL. Ever play telephone? Than you know how it works. And I suppose that all the other religious texts and belief systems that are just as old or older are wrong? The heart is for feeling - stop thinking with it.

This is a tired argument and those of you pushing it as fact are either Sheeple in dire need of thought evolution, pushing an agenda or both (which scares me even more).

The Bible is a book of morals. Read the stories to learn HOW to live. How to be a better person. Don't push your beliefs on others and always question everything.
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Jacob Buck, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:53am

Re:
the mention of the "sphere" is more accurate, for when they said sphere they meant plane.
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Jacob Buck, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:54am

Re: Re: Re: Bible isn't fact
you're pushing your beliefs on others while telling us not to do so. hypocrite.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 9:59am

Re:
Yeah. Man. Go Religion! When can we kill people to force our beliefs? Please? Common. Let's burn someone at the stake for speaking out. Let's hang people. Let's go on a (dare I say it...?) Crusade! Let's steal pagan symbols and holidays and pretend they are part of our beliefs in order to undermine another system of belief. Go God! Go Ten Commandments (when it suits us). Go double standards throughout history! Shall I continue?
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2006 @ 10:03am

Re:
And therefore the Bible should be taken literally folks. Eat it up! Sheeple.
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Nick, 6 Nov 2006 @ 10:09am

I think everyone knows that this is no longer on topic so if you think you are saving this thread somehow by saying such, you're not.

I have nothing against anyone who believes in the bible but stating "facts" which are not correct such as the bible being a complete historically accurate document is bound to set people off. If you are going to follow the bible (and i'm not saying that's a bad thing) you might want to educate yourself before suggesting to others things about it which it's not.

I have to say that I was brought up in the Catholic church, sunday mass and church school until 12th grade when I was confirmed. I followed the Catholic faith until I attended a private catholic college where I studied the bible for four years.

In the end, affter being brought up and told that this book I'm holding is historical fact and then finding out that it is really just a collection that has constantly been re-read and changed based on the times and who was in control of it, it no longer had the same appeal. If it does for you, that's great and I'm sure it's helped a great number of people navigate their lives and be good people.
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Jim, 6 Nov 2006 @ 10:13am

Fact or fiction
I find it comical that an article about fake Chinese companies degenerates to "you're wrong, I'm right"... "NO, you're wrong, I'm right." These pissing matches have no winner. One side will not convince the other. One says there is a God (or gods) and the other says there's not. One person has science as his religion and scientific process as his holy text. Another has the belief in Ahurha Mazda as his religion. Whose is right? Who has the truth. Neither can prove a "truth" (dare I say "fact") to the other because proof requires a shared framework of belief. Remember, "Rebuke a wise man and he will love you. Rebuke not a fool as he will consider it a stain and cause him to hate you" (a very bad paraphrase).
I believe Truth is not redefined by the next discovery. The perception of Truth is not changed by the next theory. The wise person is the one to see that there is something beyond his understanding. The fool is the person who says there is one understanding, his.
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How Insightful, 6 Nov 2006 @ 10:23am

The perception of Truth is not changed by the next theory. The wise person is the one to see that there is something beyond his understanding. The fool is the person who says there is one understanding, his.

That in itself is a theory. But, a very deep one and therefore it's the right one.
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The infamous Joe, 6 Nov 2006 @ 10:23am

WWDJ for a Klondike bar?
Seriously, ladies and germs-- what's the point of bickering over such petty things as the bible? It's clearly a "For reference only" tool for basic morality-- nothing more. Do you really think God, (or god??) in his eternal wisdom and insight, wouldn't forsee us messing it all up? Or maybe God makes mistakes, now? I dunno, I think some people, both religious or atheist, need to relax a little. Live your life and treat other how you want to be treated and I'm sure you'll do just fine after you die. Or maybe there is nothing after you die, and you lived a friendly life for nothing, I dunno.

I less than three all of you fools, but I think maybe everyone misses the bigger picture.

China sucks. America FTW! :)
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 10:24am

Ha sheeple thats great.
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 10:31am

Re: WWDJ for a Klondike bar?
I think you're missing the picture, the bible is fucking fiction not a reference guide not a manual to life. If you believe some fucking guy changed water into wine YOU ARE A FUCKING TOOL.

and keep your fucking church bulletins and fliers out of my fucking face.
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Common Sense, 6 Nov 2006 @ 10:33am

I'm praying for you Mike, I know it's hard.
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Mike, 6 Nov 2006 @ 10:39am

Common Sense
you =
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Leslie Nichols, 6 Nov 2006 @ 11:11am

My most humble apologies to Chris and to all other Techdirt bloggers. My intention was never to start a reliious discussion of Biblical proportion, just to simply ask "back in what day" was there a time when deception was not a practice among humanity. If you are a Christian as I am, please refrain from making any further comments on this blog. We do not honor Christ in doing so. Again my most humble apologies to all of you.
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WWJD, 6 Nov 2006 @ 11:40am

Leslie
Well, it sounds like you've learned your lesson. If only there had been a passage for this situation in the bible.

And it's good you told others how to honor Christ, don't want them thinking for themselves...who knows what could happen then?!
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The infamous Joe, 6 Nov 2006 @ 11:58am

Re: Re: WWDJ for a Klondike bar?
Mike, Mike, Mike... You are really one of the people I was thinking of when I lightheartedly wrote my post. First of all, I think you have a lot of pent up anger, to be so hostile to an opposing opinion from a complete stranger. Perhaps you should go find someone nearby, perhaps in the next cubicle over, and have a good long cry on their shoulder. A manly one, of course. :-P

Done? Okay, now that you're ready, I'd like to say I hoped that my subject would indicate that I am not a bible thumper, as, as far as I can tell, their sense of humor when it comes to religion has been outsourced.

Not to mention, wether or not I believe some guy changed water into wine-- I'm not sure where you get off thinking you know enough to judge me for these beliefs. I never asked you to believe that some guy changed water into wine, did I? I also don't recall calling you names because you (clearly) don't.

And as much as you hate to admit it, the bible is pretty much as I said, a guide to better living with other people. It's more or less the same stuff that kindergardeners get taught: Be nice, don't steal, don't masturbate. :-P I highly doubt the bible matters much in the Grand Sceme of Things-- wether you believe in God or not, I couldn't imagine a pop quiz on bible trivia and fact at the Pearly Gates. If there is I'm screwed, for sure.

The point I was trying to make was that no one is going to verbally accost me if I say I like my pizza with white sauce, black olives, bacon, spinach, feta and chicken. Just because I like it doesn't mean you have to-- and just because I think you'll like it and offer you a taste doesn't mean you should jump down my throat ranting about my pizza coupons being in their face. So, why is religion any different? No, really, I want to know.

The way I see it, as long as I'm not terribly inconvienenced by your religion, or lack thereof, then I'll gladly listen to what you have to say and go on believing whatever it is I believe. Speaking of, the only group I have a beef with these days are the ultra-atheists.. Just because you don't believe in a god or God doesn't mean we need to wipe the word off the planet. I like it in the pledge, it just seems to go there. You wouldn't like it if the word 'evolution' were wiped out, would you?

That golden rule thing works everytime. Except for masochists. Oh well.

Man, look at all my idle ranting-- I rock.
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Nick, 6 Nov 2006 @ 12:11pm

I think it's more a question of a person feeling that they are more educated on the given subject than someone else.

I can remember after studying many religion classes in college that I would go to my mom (strong catholic) and explain to her all I had learned about the content of the bible. But in the end it falls on deaf ears because she has that magical thing called faith.

Well, one day I thought about it and while I didn't feel this same faith that she did and couldn't begin to understand why she wouldn't look at the facts I presented to her...she is happy and leads a good life as a Catholic and will never be convinced by anything less than God that what she is doing is vain.

So regardless of your religious beliefs, if you want to purely argue facts than argue the facts...changing someones beliefs, especially religious ones....well...good luck.
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|3331373|3|_||3, 6 Nov 2006 @ 6:46pm

Since this has gione completyely off-topic
I would just like to point out that there is one error in the name of a location in one of Clanc'ys book, and that is the name of the pub referred to in Red Storm Rising outside HMS Dryad (The Fox and Hounds). The two pubs in Souwick outside Southwick House (where HMS Dryad is) are the Red Lion (Free House) and the Golden Lion (a brewery pub). THe nerest Fox and Hounds pubs are in Waterlooville and Anthill common, abouyt 10 mile away. I know this 'cause I have lived near the second of the two Fox and Hounds I have mentioneed, and Eaten in the Red Lion.
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