No End In Sight To H-1B Problems
from the workers dept
We recently pointed to a study that demonstrated the large contribution recent immigrants make to the tech industry, as they found a high percentage of new startups. Of course, some people won't be swayed by the data, which is why it looks likely that the mess surrounding H-1B visas won't get cleared up anytime soon. As it is, businesses quickly snap up the available visas, and it's clear from the evidence (as well as anecdotally) that more should be freed up. One opponent of expanding the program is newly-elected Virginia Senator Jim Webb who doesn't support the program at all, and said the idea of a tech worker shortage is a myth. It's not totally clear how he arrived at that viewpoint, but even if it were true, it's irrelevant. Even if there were no shortage, per se, it still doesn't make sense to limit companies' options in terms of who they can hire. Would Webb prefer tech companies hire abroad? That seems doubtful. Since this is one of those issues that doesn't fall neatly along party lines, it's hard to tell whether the new Congress will be interested in addressing the issue. It seems likely that progress on this issue, like many other tech-related issues facing the Congress, will be slow going.
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I think it's good that people immigrate legally. But I know it's next to impossible for many with the current system, so they have nothing to really loose as it stands now.
If the system was fixed so normal people from other countries could immigrate, it wouldn't be such an issue.
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Re:
As insightful as a pile of rocks.
Why don't you try and give a solution instead of regurgitating pointless viewpoints (like your all congress is doing is twiddling their thumbs comment). Otherwise you're just another American bitching about another problem without having the balls (or brains) to actually suggest a solution that's innovative. What's the point outside of making yourself feel like you're actually contributing without actually bothering to work the muscle in your scull?
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What
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franco unamerica
because you're american maybe? don't forget that first and foremost you're an american and we have an obligation to look out for ourselves. if someone from india (for example) wants to come work here, good on him...but this shouldn't be affirmative action for immigrants. s/he wants to come here, then he can get a visa like everyone else and come here 100% legit and legal. s/he doesn't like it? then go work somewhere else. where the hell is america's sense of nationalism?
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H1-B is non immigrant visa
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Re: H1-B is non immigrant visa
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Re: Re: H1-B is non immigrant visa
And nepotism is rampant as they keep bringing in their buddies by the truck load.
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If you didnt see the shortage
The tech job market is VERY fast moving, and talents are rendered useless just as fast as buzzwords.
Most large projects cannot be accomplished without the expertise of a few technology specialists, who arent really good at anything else. Finding those people is HARD. Finding them at a decent price... damn near impossible. Unless of course, you import them from India.
Go ahead, do a medium to large implementation of SAP R-3 and try to say theres not a shortage of tech workers...
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Re: If you didnt see the shortage
And if tech companies put some time and effort into training their current employees in these "specialties" instead of replacing experienced programmers with recent grads (from US and abroad) who have today's important buzzwords in their resumes, there wouldn't be any shortage of tech workers. "Let's see, you have 10 years of programming experience but no AJAX experience? Sorry, you're not what we're looking for."
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No End In Sight To H-1B Problems
And for those who think H1-Bs are a threat to domestic talent, may I remind you that this country was made by the hands of immigrants, who have, time and again, come in to fill the gap Americans cant or wont fill. Once here, though, its up to the natives to assimilate those 'foreigners' till they can be proud of their adoptive country too.
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Re: No End In Sight To H-1B Problems
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Re: Re: No End In Sight To H-1B Problems
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re: ScytheNoire
They're out there, I've been on plenty of job interviews in the past couple of months. Dice.com is a good place to start.
last i saw, there were too many unemployed or mis-employed tech workers.
My guess is those "unemployed" or "mis-employed" tech workers haven't kept up with changing technology since the layoffs of the "dot com" bubble so nobody wants to hire them.
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Re: re: ScytheNoire
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re: America's sense of nationalism...
Fucking Liberals.
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Re: re: America's sense of nationalism...
I always assumed our sense of nationalism was sent overseas to fight the war on terror-- where it was killed.
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the sad fact is...
shortage of COMPETENT engineers in america? YOU BET.
There are just as many retards here as there, so why not import who we need from the bigger picture. To me thats a much better option than forcing companies to leave the US because they can't get enough good employees.
pick only from the shallow end of the gene pool, and you'll get pretty much what you'd expect.
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Nationalism Doesn't Work
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All We Need Is One More 911
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Depends on your perspective
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Keep the work inside your border?
These visas are for temporary workers to work inside the US? And the alternative is often to send work overseas?
I would have thought it would benefit the US more to have the work carried out inside your own borders? That way at least some of the money going to the worker is going back into your own economy directly?
Admitedly this is a very simplistic view of what is obviously a complex issue but I would have thought this was at least part of the picture. The mere fact that corporations are so quick to snatch all they can get shows this is a problem - if they are just trying to save a quick buck then removing them won't make them employ more Americans - it'll make for more off shoring
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Re: Keep the work inside your border?
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Strengths & weaknesses, as always...
2. We're all immigrants. Some are first generation, the rest of us are descendants of immigrants. Even "native" Americans are thought to be descendants of people who came from Asia.
3. Recent immigrants (1st-3rd generation) have always had a major impact on the national economy, primarily due to entrepreneurial activities.
4. When there are both citizens and non-citizens who qualify for a job, H1B visas allow companies to have the citizens and non-citizens compete for the position, based on additional skills, acceptance of lower compensation, etc.
5. If there are no H1B's, and if there are not enough qualified citizen job-seekers in a field, larger (or better funded) firms tend to win bidding wars for the limited supply of local personnel.
Bottom line: H1B's allow greater concentration of the best skilled workers in the world to work for American companies, at the cost of reduced demand (fewer jobs, lower pay) for American workers who are less skilled than non-citizen competitors.
Therefore, H1B's are good for the American economy overall, but bad for citizens whose job skills are inferior to foreign rivals.
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What he cannot do is design the next-generation nuke or rocket booster, scramjet missilies or spaceports. For that s/he needs security clearance and all that jazz.
Applying for an H1B by an individual working for a firm > 25 employees will cost him upwards of 2000$, not including lawyer representation fee. 2000$ for what? Multiply that by the number of H1B quotas given out each year and raise your eyebrows at the disgusting burp Congress heaves.
Its time for that xenophobic redneck to check his family tree and shoot Billy Bob or whichever brother his mom banged and quit whining.
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Yeah or create new software service companies in the US or abroad. oh nm
I love the H1-b system. I like seeing the teaming masses of well qualified programmers and network specialists in the unemployment lines. They are just to self satisfied and smug. Just because you have an education and technical skills doesn't mean you deserve special treatment. I don't care how hard you worked to get there. You should be in the same category as migrant workers. I like watching a haughty up to date CCIE become a trucker or garbage man because he can't find a job in the tech field.
I'm sick of seeing hardworking technical people getting ahead. We need to continue to bring people from outside the country and employee them, teach them our techniques and processes so, when their Visas expire they can take those skills back to their home country and start companies there. Then there will be even more competition to drive down the costs of products so these new welfare programmers can buy them.
But then again who are we kidding? Prices are only going to drop on electronic over time. Any cost saving will be absorbed by the stock holders of those companies over seas. Making them rich. So if I can't be rich I don't want my neighbor getting rich so I say lets make more Chineese and Indian Millionaires.
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Tyson Chicken
So Tyson does what it has to do....it hires illegal immigrants with fraudelant identities. Vicente Fox said it best. Our unskilled work force would rather stay at home and play with their xboxes and sell herb to buy their spinning rims and Nike shoes.
The liberal democrats think that raising the Minimum wage will help. It won't! It will only make our employees earning $10-15 an hour feel poorer.
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http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html
If corporations weren't abusing the H1B visa program to bring in cheap labor, I wouldn't be against.
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H1-b is just another form of age discrimination
I have no problem with allowing foreign workers into the US, but I have a BIG problem with the government-encouraged abuse of the H1-b system -- which, as practiced by above un-named telco, amounted to slavery. ("What? So you don't like working 18-hour days without paid overtime, Ganesh? Pack your bags; you're fired -- er, "laid off". Too bad you have to leave the country before you have time to file a legal complaint..."). The abuses I personally observed were bad enough that I have trouble with people believing it could be so bad.
I would favor complete abolishment of the H1-b program, and just let anyone with a marketable skill come to the US with no restriction other than a clean criminal record. Note that the companies that want to hire H1-b's are dead set against any such move, because it would obviate the main advantage of the H1-b program, namely the ease with which it can be abused.
BTW, if you think age discrimination isn't for real, it just means you haven't been around long enough for it to get applied to you.
--
Texas CHL Courses
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H1-B
There is no CRITICAL shortage of qualified, resident technical workers in the US. The H1-B Visa program is simply a way for employers to short-circuit the labor market, artificially injecting cut-rate labor and thus reduce the supply/demand ratio forcing lower overall labor rates. I remember one occasion when I was told "Why should I pay you X, when I can bring someone in from another country and pay them half that?"
The argument that the H1-B visa applicants are mostly highly skilled specialists is false as well. Yes, some are highly skilled, and some are specialists, but some are so "specialized" that I find it hard to beleive that they deserve a special visa. Take the "Oracle DB Admin" who does not understand that a comma delimited file HAS TO HAVE COMMAS BETWEEN THE FIELD VALUES!! Is this a "highly skilled specialist", or an over-specialized one trick pony?
I do believe that foriegn workers should be able to come into the US and earn their way into the workplace and earn citizenship. But I am opposed to "guest" visa's, and I am oppose to any program which artificially disrupts the labor supply/demand ratio. (That includes importing goods and services from countries which artificially deflate the value of their currency, have prohibitive protective tarrifs, utilize child labor, utilize forced labor, have dictatorships, communist, or fascist governments.)
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Huh
Some immigrants end up with successful startups because they have connections and can talk to low cost workers here and abroad. I have been in companies that hired many h1b's, they were hard to communicate with, the solution was to get rid if the americans and have all low level management on down Indian. Go to Verizons main offices of development. Less than 10% non indians walking around. Joe, get a grip it is all about the money.
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The solution is to give conditional green cards to skilled workers. You have to remain employed or continue searching for work, no felonies or misdemeanors for 10 years, no unemployment or other benefits without a certain amount paid into the system. And before you get in, you need to have a physical and blood test as well as write a small essay on why you want to come to the United States.
/ Canadian who tried and sadly failed because of this system to get his green card despite two masters degrees and never having taken unemployment
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it's cost vs profit. always has been, always will be.
companies want to maximize profit while reducing cost. why pay an american worker do to 50% of a job at 100% of the price, while an immigrant will do 100% of the job at 50% of the price. why not? fear of breaking laws...cost analysis. if fines run you $10k and you save $30k, you still made an additional $20k
the issue comes in where the conservatives think everyone is moral, and will do the right thing. (how many "honest conservative business owners" do you know (of)>) so they say, let business do what they please, they won't abuse their workers. (um...if that's the case, why the need for unions???)
the liberals believe that people are discrimiated against and deserve a fair shot. civil rights? so becuse you've been disgrimnated against in the past, it will continue, so we need to help (minimum wage anyone?)
in the strictest sense, neither side will work because they will screw over the opposing side. business will pay less and less on the conseervative side, and business will fall due to the mandatory regulations by the liberals.
what is needed is a balance between the two. some type of way to keep business from abusing the workers yet be able to adjust the market. will it happen? i doub it only because when one side gets too heavy, the other over responds, takes control, and once that side gets big, the reverse happens.
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Huh
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Re: Huh
I am an immigrant myself. But I love this country due to the way it stands for its core foundation believes. However many do tend to undermine this very core concept America was build on. I am a true believer of Capitalism and I think US is one of or maybe the only true capitalistic society. More so because, US follows Capitalism without any bias or hypocrisy. Many developed and under developed countries including India are confused about what form of capitalism they should follow. One of the principal reasons this country is not screwed up is due to this believe. Other countries are screwed up in spite of talented and abundant human resource due to the fact that they too much obsessed with their confused corporate culture and are hypocritical about how to truly obey the rules of globalization. Corporate America is the main reason this country --as you say--is not screwed up.
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NAS study
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horrible disinformation in here
first off, the "studies" conducted by the "Center for Immigration Studies" are dubious at best. i would understand if there may be some bias in their reports, as, after all, they are trying to prove a point. however, the "CIS" (not to be confused with the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services) has been criticized as blatantly racist, basing their findings on extremely skewed and nonrepresentative data.
second, the H-1B program and the regulations set forth by the USCIS and the Dept. of Labor strictly enforce prevailing wage protections so that the U.S. labor market is given preference while allowing a reasonable number of skilled foreign nationals to come to the U.S. to fulfill much-needed professional positions. there is a limited degree of abuse, yes. it is hard, however, to envision *any* system that will be free from abuse. however, the DOL strictly regulates what sources can and cannot be used for the purposes of a prevailing wage. private wage surveys are SCRUTINIZED. suspect surveys are investigated and, if necessary, rejected, eliminating the lower-wage problem as much as possible. the actual H-1B petition process is no cakewalk, either. companies AND foreign nationals must bend over backwards to prove to the U.S. that the position being offered is professional in nature, cannot be filled by anyone in the U.S., and can only be fulfilled by the foreign national in questions because of his or her education and experience. in addition, security checks are run, and foreign nationals are interviewed both at their local U.S. embassy/consulate AND when applying for entry into the U.S. companies hiring H-1B workers are also open to increased scrutiny from the CIS, ICE, and the DoL. H-1Bs are NOT trivial.
furthermore, H-1Bs are not limited to the tech industry; other industries such as business management, biomedical research, and financial analysis depend on H-1Bs, among other things, primarily because American workers with the necessary education and skills are simply *not there*. i think that speaks to the lack of support the U.S. gives to education in general.
in any event, H-1B numbers need to be increased.
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Re: horrible disinformation in here
"primarily because American workers with the necessary education and skills are simply *not there*. i think that speaks to the lack of support the U.S. gives to education in general."
People don't go to school for engineering anymore because a) you have posess a certain level of intelligence to do it b) It's really hard. c) it doesn't pay the bills anymore - it's not longer a respected profession. It's the textiles of the 00's.
In Mass., engineers are the mules that make the econemy go around. Taxes->Public Sector->VC->Private Sector->Taxes-> etc... the money goes around and around, yet certain people have their straws in and benefit from this lossy process - all at the expense of the future.
Those people also benefit from increased h-1Bs, and coicedently, educational spending. you wouldnt' be one of them, would you?
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Re: horrible disinformation in here
you're basically proving my point. no one in the U.S. is going into engineering anymore? and yet somehow employers still show a demand for the profession?
guess what labor pool they will have to pull their workforce from then?
the public/private/venture capital/taxes loop has been in existence since the beginning of this "great" nation, so stop using it as a strawman.
and as i pointed out, H-1B's aren't just for industries and businesses in technology fields.
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Re: Re: horrible disinformation in here
There's a price to be paid for incentivising your best and brightest to be recruiters and salesmen. Down the line the system will break down.
Engineers have never been known for their business sense, especially foriegn engineers. Other professions aren't as succeptible to being used as tools.
American engineers need some tax relief or benefit from the government to make it a financially viable career again. It's too important a resource to let go.
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H1B visas
Furthermore if businesses don't care to business in America because they think that they have the right to H1B cheap labor in India and China, then they can pack their bags and go! There's nothing stopping them today from leaving. This whole H1B visas thing has scam written all over it. Wake up people! We've been sold out.
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Listen to Gates, or Kill Yourself off
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Re: Listen to Gates, or Kill Yourself off
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Where is the supply & demand aspect of H1B needs?
Why aren't wages significantly moving higher to meet the demand for these highly skilled people?
Simply economic dictates that you can get the skills from the existing US citizens for the right price. Throw in a $10k signing bonus, add $10-20k to my current salary, and I'll move. Otherwise stop complaining of 'lack of skills'.
2. The Visa program is a major factor artificially holding down US wages.
3. Also I know too many highly skilled folks not being fully employed. So why would smart US people sink 4-10 years of opportunity + actual costs into IT/engineering education when there is lower probability of recovering from the investment?
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First--you have to realize that H-1B is an exception in the visa laws. It mentions specific occupations. As such, it is not a "free-market" law, but rather an exception to what would otherwise be a free-market law. Free-market laws don't mention people.
So the justification for this exception has to be that the free-market isn't working. Specifically, the free-market isn't providing as many skilled workers as IBM or Microsoft needs, at the right price. Well I don't know who you would ask for an opinion to test this, but IBM and Microsoft aren't the place to go for unbiased opinions.
Secondly, the companies lobbying for the law claim they could hire more workers overseas than THEY ALREADY HAVE. Once again, this is an irrational conclusion. H-1Bs are 3 times more expensive than an overseas worker. If it were possible to have them doing THE SAME WORK at home, it would make more sense to go that route.
Let's assume it costs 10 million dollars to lobby Congress, 60K for an H-1B, 80K for an American, and 30K for a worker in India. What does the company gain by lobbying for H-1B if the job could be sent overseas? A loss of 10 million, PLUS a loss of 30K per worker.
But...what if the company's lying? What if the job needs to be situated in the US, due to proximity to the marketing and finance people, and due to the proximity to the US market? What does the company gain BY LYING in that scenario? 20K per worker. What makes more sense? They're lying of course.
Or to quote an Oracle LOBBYIST "The problem, of course, is not every company can relocate overseas [that's why we need H-1B.]"
Do other people in the US gain from H-1B? Yes. A majority? Yes. But that's where the constitutional issue comes into play.
If you tax everyone with brown hair $3,000, and redistribute the money to everyone else, a majority benefits. But--it's unconstutional--the fourteenth ammendment prohibits passing laws that mention a specific group of people, even if a majority benefits. It's a denial of "equal protection under the law."
And if you mention programmers, specifically, in the Visa laws, everyone who isn't a progammer benefits. They get cheaper software; they enjoy tax revenues paid by H-1Bs, they enjoy the money that H-1Bs spend here in the US--while the American progammers see only inflation and declining wages.
BUT--it's unconstitutional. It's unconstitutional to tax everyone who has brown hair $3000 even if a majority benefits. And it's unconstitutional to pass a law mentioning programmers that hurts them--even if a majority benefits.
Ignore the 14th Ammendment, and pretty soon there will be no group that doesn't have a law singling them out, punishing them, that benefits the majority.
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H1B
F*ck you corporate *ss licking pigs who make stupid comments about their being a shortage of COMPETENT American workers. And the INCOMPETENT and ignorant Joe Wiesenthal who authored this article can eat sh*t and die.
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Re: H1B
Perhaps the reason you're not getting a job is that you don't appear to play well with others...
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Pure Racism
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Why H1B is so attractive -- and why its so so wrong.
Employees should not do any development. They should stay with analysis and architecture.
Everytime, there is a downturn in the economy, most of the part under the line gets wiped clean. The H1Bs are gone with the wave of a wand.
No layoffs, no severence payments, no legal issues. No headaches...
What about the contracting company who was employing them ? Apparently this company has no legal obligations either. -- You give your employers the pink slip without a penny in compensation.
Nice, huh? You get a huge chunk of their paycheck, sometimes over 50% of their hourly payment, but when they dont have a job, they are out on their asses.
Unless of course you are in such a position that you cannot be replaced. for eg. you know technology that is 8 years old and are still willing to work in that technology.
As an aside, ...
A few years back, there were quite a number of H1Bs among the architects and leads. Now they are all relegated to development alone. And what happened to those employees who were then developing? They are now architects. They get paid more, but the real work is still done by the developers... Crazy? You bet.
This is why H1B is so attractive among corporates.
Continued in Part 2.
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Why H1B is so so wrong -- Part Deux
lets look at it from the side of the H1B employee.
You are brought here on the promise of work and big money, then many have to find jobs themselves so their employers can make money off you. (Seems like live of the night streets to me.)
Congress demands equal pay for H1Bs. But they have no way of enforcing it. Companies routinely pay H1B employees less than their worth by showing them as Senior Developers when they may be Team Leads or Architects.
There is no requirement that a company must file a Green Card for an employee. So companies keep an employee on their payroll but "forget" to file a Green card till its too late for the employee.
You would say "Why does the employee not change his job?" Well, apparently he has to have a clean slate when he goes to apply for his Green Card.
We have heard about slavery where our forefathers brought people here on ships who were owned by slave masters. They could not change employers without permission. They had to do all sorts of menial labor that normal citizens would never even think of doing.
H1B program seems very similar to that. The difference is teh H1B gets to pay taxes, Social Security, FICA, Medicare... Does he get anything in return?
Oh no! The benefit is only for the citizens of this country...
Ok, then, why does he not become a citizen? --- Well he wants to. But the USCIS does not. It takes on a average over 10 years to become a citizen after your company starts a green card process(which could be anywhere from 4 to 6 years after you have started working here.)
Imagine this, Once a GC is filed for you, you have to stay with the same company, no matter what, unless you get your approval for Green Card. Talk about long term bonded labor.
Please remember, that the Medicare that is enjoyed by our parents is also supported by these H1Bs who are forced to give up their earnings without any hope of ever getting any back.
One thing to note:
I like to take in some fishing, sometimes I go bowling with my friends. I spend some evenings in a bar with the guys.
But you know what, none of my H1B colleagues ever join me.
They are busy going through the next book on .NET or eclipse or WCF or whatever Microsoft or IBM is coming out with next.
Are they hard workers? You bet.
Are there stupid idiotic dumps in them? -- Absolutely.
I have no idea how they get through our "stringent selection process" but they are here.
Another fact of interest --
If an H1B loses his job, the USCIS requires that he goes back to his country.
Can you imagine, pulling your kids out of school, selling your house, cars and all worldly possessions and go on a months notice?
Have you ever tried putting your house on the market in , say December? How about selling that sofa you just picked up for $2000/-. How much will you get for that?
We pride ourselves on the fairness of our system. -- I know for one, its not so fair after all.
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had that same problem way when back in 1977 Carter who had just Killed
the B1B Bomber here in California then I had just been Layed Off from
North American Avation, I found a Job and I was hired into the Northrup
Corp. And when I was hired in they were geting at that same time many
Engineer Job Shoppers coming out of England Paid way under Hourly cost
and would not hire but just a few American just to look good, so there
was this Union called "American Engineers" (Part of the Boeing Plant in
Wash. State that came down to Southern California) They made a Big Spat
over this type of H1B hiring, I know Because I was ONE of the ones who
got Fired by Northrup because As I was Out side on the Side Walk with a
friend holding a Sign on a "BIG WHITE BED SHEET", That Photo was in the
News Paper the Next day!--- Northrup were filing with the INS H1B's
saying that they could not find or get Engineers and then paying off
Companys in England that were filling there request on the B1B
application they summited The same INS papers required to have the
Engineers hired in as Job Shoppers at Northrup, While even better-
qualified” American workers or Collage Students who at that time were
looking for any kind of work, So when they say that this country should
hold steady the number of skilled foreign workers eligible to live and
work in this country Well THAT'S ALL HORSE PUCKIE! DONT FALL FOR THAT
ONE!, They need to "delete the requirement all togather" and If I may
add that also "Regestered Nurses (RN)" here in the United States also
have this same kind of a problems NOW as most of the Jobs in the
Hospitals are Filled by foreign workers who are paid Lower wages, How
do I know well My my Wifes is one of them and is mad as Hell that this
is even taking place here in the States and all the Hospitals are stll
doing this same thing by for getting there foreign applicants Which
they also do by filling all there request on the B1B applications!! And
well next time your near a Hospital ! Check that Out.
And all the while for Over 33 Years I had been with North American
Avation they had been allways Hiring Many Many College student to work
along side by side with older Engineers or other types of jobs withen
the Company and During the Summer as well as full time and they could
have filled many of the jobs that were taken away by this Underhanded
Northrup Corp.
That Said! I am one of many Many American Citizens favoring a system
that really forces companies to prove they cannot find a qualified
American worker or even a College Grad, before hiring from anywhere
abroad Lets take back American Jobs and keep them here forever!
Write your Congress Rep. We just do not want it ! Now or Ever !!
Vote in the mid-Term and Take back America !
Pass this On
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H1B
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