Is It Still Theft Of Service If It's Using The Free WiFi At The Library?
from the someone-please-explain dept
In the past, we've made it pretty clear why we have a hard time believing that there's anything wrong with using an open WiFi network -- even as there are an increasing number of stories of people getting arrested and fined for doing so -- usually with the claim that it's "theft of services." However, it's difficult to see how it can possibly be considered theft of services when it's done from a place that's giving away the WiFi for free. The latest case, sent in by John, involves a 21-year-old who had his laptop confiscated after he was caught using a library's free WiFi from his car. The police officer quoted in the case, makes it sound like it's a no brainer that using the WiFi in a library from your car is clearly illegal -- but there's no explanation for why (or why it's then okay to confiscate the guy's laptop to "inspect what he may have been downloading.") Also, if it's so suspicious for someone to be using a laptop in their car, what happens when more people get access to wireless broadband and sit in their cars using their laptops via a completely legitimate EVDO or HSDPA connection? Will the police come and confiscate those laptops as well?
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Same as light
(At this point, I would like to note that the parking lot lights cost more to install/maintain/run than the wifi does)
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Re: Same as light
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Parking lot lights as a precedence?
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Re: Parking lot lights as a precedence?
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This guy's 21. HA !
But seriously, the cop states;
"in this particular case you know he's feeding off something that we know the city of Palmer pays for and there are requirements to use it,".
He's not following the requirements.
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Re:
There are "requirements" to use the library's WiFi? Are those requirements the library's requirements or the state/county/city/municipality laws? It seems to me that the city should be up in arms over the use of law enforcement hours being spent on policing the library's policies. If the library requirements are being circumvented, it sounds to me like the library needs to find a way to cut off the "inappropriate usage", not a cop to come illegally confiscate "contraband" which may or may not have been used in the commission of a "failed library requirement". The cop's role might have been to simply require Tanner to move along, as one might do to any loiterer not "meeting requirements", but search and seizure? Call in Internal Affairs -- this sounds to me like a likely candidate for decaff and low-sugar diet, on top of the review of actual duties and rights of a public servant.
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Remember the episode of Seinfeld with the 'Library Cop'? Maybe he's one of those.
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Theft of Service
This kid had what he got coming to him. As I understand the law, this constitutes unauthorized use of a private network. The library was closed both times the kid was caught using it.
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Re: Theft of Service
That explains the arrest but why was his pc taken for inspection?
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Re: Theft of Service
THat's the entire point of the article! The kid was not using the network without authorization. The wifi is open and unencrypted.
If the library doesn't want people to use their wifi after hours, they should shut down the wifi when they turn off the lights.
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Theft? From whom?
If it is a "private network", why was there no security?
If the library was closed, why was the network active?
Why has no-one taken the library to task for running such an insecure network and leaving it on after hours?
While the miscreant was obviously in the wrong, it seems to me like this is being treated as a serious crime rather than the trivial misdemeanor that it is.
I guess that the cops must have cleaned up all the rapes and robberies and have nothing better to do.
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Re: Theft? From whom?
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Re: Theft of Service
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Re: Re: Theft of Service
An interesting point in an earlier post -- if a cop thought you were speeding, could they confiscate your car to prove it? Many (most??) recent cars hold a fair amount of trouble-shooting data in the onboard computers, like speed, throttle, brake, etc. That data could be used to show you were in fact moving at a certain speed and the cop would just have to testify that you were in a certain speed zone at that time.
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Re: Re: Re: Theft of Service
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Re: Theft of Service
If the library was closed ... and they don't want folks using the FREE PUBLIC wifi ... then turn it off.
Plenty of routers available to curtail hours traffic is permitted.
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Re: Theft of Service
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Re: Theft of Service
It is a stretch to call this "theft of services." Theft of services is the legal term for a crime which is committed when a person obtains valuable services--as opposed to goods--by deception, force, threat or other unlawful means, i.e., without lawfully compensating the provider of said services. The library's WIFI service is public and paid for and his parents probably pay the taxes to keep it online.
There's a simple, common-sense solution to this, however.The library could switch off the wi-fi network at closing and then nobody can use it after hours. If it's on 24/7, it is fair game....sort of like leaving your cable TV or satellite radio on for anybody to enjoy. That's not illegal, nor is it stealing.
If I was sitting on the jury, that's how I'd interpret it. And the policeman needs to get a lesson in the Fourth Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure.
Protect yourselves from police abuse, watch the video on http://totallyunjust.tripod.com
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I can see it now...
I fail to understand why he was arrested. About the best they could get him with is loitering and even that is a pretty big stretch. And taking his pc for inspection? Perhaps the arresting officer works for the RIAA/MPAA...
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Man..
-WoW Player
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Thought I would point out
While I do feel for the kid the police didn't just "do it" they did warn him this counted as theft of services and he went and did it the NEXT DAY. Whether or not the rule makes sense to us isn't really the point. The cops were doing their job as best they could while giving a him fair chance to find other options.
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Re: Thought I would point out
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Theft of Service
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Re: Theft of Service
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Re: Re: Theft of Service
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Re: Re: Re: Theft of Service
not true. If you find a bag of money on the street, and it's over a certain amount (~$500), you're legally required to turn it into police. failure to do so is grand theft.
Now, if nobody claims it writing.. i think 90 days (probably varies depending on where you are), then you can come back and claim it.
"Finders keepers" doesn't hold water legally.
That being said, and getting back on topic, how can they possibly claim theft of service on a day when the library is closed? doesn't theft of service imply some sort of damage to the party that was stolen from? if the library were open, and he was torrenting, i could see the argument, but on a day off, there's nobody to impact. Unless they're paying per bit (not likely), where is the damage?
utter silliness.
the lotering is a different story.
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Re: Re: Theft of Service
You paid for cable because there were no commercials.
You now pay more than ever for cable...you get more commercials than broadcast and you don't even get to choose to eliminate the channels you don't want.
This is a classic example of big business ripping off the end user...and we sit here and take it.
So I would agree...the 21 yr.old was being cheap...probably so he could pay his cable bill !
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Are you selling these cards or something?
Why should we buy EVDO cards when everyone has free wifi sitting there to be used? This is exactly whe kind of reasoning by the "big companies" used to extract every penny they can.
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not the point of the article Bob
The point is that he wasn't "being cheap" and he wasn't doing anything that was illegal. It is not illegal to use open and unecrypted WiFi. It would not be up to law enforcement to keep people "off the library network" when the library hasn't done anything to make their wifi Private.
It would be a different story if the wifi was encrypted and the kid had still gained access, but it wasn't.
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Re: not the point of the article Bob
I agree... but every few months it seems that a case like this hits the news. It seems that the blame is going to the wrong place - the Network Admin responsible should be answering some tough questions. Securing a network is not exactly hard...
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Don't use encryption because encryption works, better to leave it open, otherwise we will have to do it right and it's much easier to do to it wrong and arrest those who don't see our point of view.
Yep, sounds like a politician to me.
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Kid 7:00 to 9:00 for gaming.
Mom 9:00 to 11:00 for Scrapbooking research.
At least he was following the rules at home.
Bedtime @ 11:00, that means everyone.
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What I don't understand is how anyone can argue that just because he was physically outside of the library, that it's an issue. How much of a difference would it have made if he was inside, in all seriousness...?
Why should anyone even care? I guess it made the cop feel 'powerful'.
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Carl Carl Carl
Na na na poo poo Carl!
Right as you are Carl, please don't tempt us with the wares. If you walk up to a kid with a freshly baked bag of donuts (are donuts baked anymore?) and wave them under the kids nose, and then tell him the only way to get the donuts is to go on-line, enter your credit card and await delivery, will the kid do that, or will he wait until you aren't looking and take one of the donuts. It's WRONG WRONG WRONG, but it's life. Life has changed since we were kids, better or worse, we can't wish it back to the way it was, but now maybe we must continue to plod through this mess. Cheap bastard or not, if someone builds it they will come!
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This kid had what he got coming to him. As I understand the law, this constitutes unauthorized use of a private network. The library was closed both times the kid was caught using it.
But you know - doesn't matter. What gets me is that the city/state has the *right* to tell him ha cannot use a *public* service that is being *PAID FOR* by the taxpayers???
In all honestly, they have no real *right* to tell a taxpayer he can or cannot use public resources like this, unless it's impacting someone else's rights.
Even if he was surfing porn at least he had the tact to do so outside, where we wouldn't disturb others.
I don't really care what kind of spin the local "leaders" put on it. It's not right.
Afterall, they let people check books out - and take them home.
If I'm reading a book outside of the library is it equally illegal????
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Theft of Service???
The argument about satellite signals is a red herring. You can't compare apples and oranges. Now, if the satellite company offered the service for free and then got upset that you used it freely on Sunday when their offices weren't open, did you break their usage policy? Maybe. If it stated that you could only use it for free during their business hours.
And as far as the officer taking the laptop...if he felt it was used during the commission of a crime, then he had every right to take it, that crime NOT being illegally downloading copyrighted music but rather the 'illegal' use of a private network. If the officer stated that he took it to see if he downloaded some illegal contraband, that's another story. But if he took it to prove this guy was logged in to THIS network at THIS time to prove the crime was committed, it was completely within his duties to do so.
As you can see, I kind of argued both sides of the story because many of you on both sides had good points but also some flawed arguments.
The kid was loitering. No argument there. If the library's free wifi usage agreement (if there even is one) states that the service can only be used during library business hours, then he may have also been stealing the service. But don't get off the track, people, and start bringing your own pet peeves and conspiracy theories into this to muddy the waters. I despise the RIAA as much as the next guy, but it has nothing to do with this particular case.
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Re: Theft of Service???
The kid's crime was that he lotered on the library lot. The WiFi thing was NOT SECURE and is the responsibility of the library's network administrators to enforce the time/day access limitations, as well as to encrypt the data they wish to impose any enforcable "usage policies" upon.
How hard could it be for the library's network administrators to require library card numbers to sign on or something? Even an inept encryption effort changes the laws protecting it. At THAT point it would have been eligible to at least argue that it is the "illegal use of a private network". This is an unfortunate use of a PUBLIC network, but not the crime. There must be some way better than stealing the kid's computer to prove the time he was obsreved "loitering", whether it was to use the WiFi network, or use the library's parkinglot lights to read his road-maps.
I will love to see how this plays out when the kid wises up enough to know he has a case against the city for this overzealous police officer's illegal seizure of his computer.
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Re: Theft of Service???
However, I think that if he was loitering, he'd have been charged with that.
My .02
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Jeanne Novosad, the library system manager, said the wireless connection is normally shut off when the library is closed. But the library was waiting on a technician to install a timer and the connection was left on after hours for several days, she said.
So on the 'sue for being burnt by hot coffee' logic - that means in *FACT* the library is guilty of enticing him to surf the web by leaving the wireless connection open.
What I don't understand - like... almost feel like I'm trying to rationalize a caveman's logic - but... why... would... it... matter... if... someone... uses... free... internet... that's... paid... for... by... the..... public?????
Ok, See - I can see cops and/or laws addressing issues that *hurt* or *violate* the rights of others. But anymore - that's not why we have cops or laws is it? It has nothing to do with "protecting" the public - if it did, this wouldn't be an issue and maybe these 'cops' would be out there dealing with issues like rape, murder, etc.
But no.. they are making sure no one uses the library's wireless after hours!!!!! And after that we can spend even MORE time going over his laptop to see if he found any good porn... errr, I mean, to see what he was up to!
HOW VALIANT, HOW NOBLE!!! Don't we all feel *SO* much better to know we are in the capable hands of projectors of justice like this!!!!!???
HURRAH!!!
HURRAH!!!
But, pray tell - what would using wireless internet access hurt? How many times have I heard in the past, these two-faced library's say they don't want internet activity monitored because it's a violation of people's right to privacy, now.... they TAKE the laptop and are pouring over it to see what he's doing.
Typical doublespeak.
Maybe some of the people need to re-read 1984 and other *books* that warn about giving the government so much power.
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Should have you up for an Iron Cross!!
Errr, i meant Silver Star.... my bad~
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Theft of service defined
THEFT OF SERVICE. (a) A person commits theft of
service if, with intent to avoid payment for service that he knows
is provided only for compensation:
Note the word compensation. The word FREE wifi and compensation are mutually exclusive.
Not these laws are not intended to enforce "acceptable use policies".
There is spirit of the law and intent of law which the DA should use to determine if the charges can be filed.
also as far as confiscating the fellas computer they had better have a better justification other than just "contraband" or instrument used in commission of a crime (misdemeanor). A good lawyer could use this as violation of unreasonable search and seizure.
I can understand if the police warned him to leave and he came back then they should have charged with criminal trespass...the reach to theft of service in my opinion was poor judgment and understanding of the law by the police officers.
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Whatchoo talking about foo?!
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Do you even need to ask?
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two cents worth
Is there a policy that prohibits the use of the WiFi after-Hours?
Is there posted No Loitering area around the Library?
As a 21 year old, does he fall under any curfew laws?
The Police told him to move on, was the police within the scope of their authority to do so?
The confiscation of the laptop, was this a legal act by the police officer?
If the act was loitering wouldn’t the confiscation of the car be more justified? It wasn’t it used in the committing of the crime?
But, wait! Doesn’t the Police break the Law when they Solicit Sex for money in a Prostitution Sting?
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Re: theft
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I am not an attorney, but I could blow this out of the water. If you do not want someone taking your car while you go into the grocery store you do not leave the keys in the ignition or leave the car running. The first question a cop will ask you, "did you leave the keys in it?" Well if you did and you know that the area has had a car theft in the area in the last 10 years then obviously you wanted it stolen so you could claim insurance.
what is their excuse for leaving the wireless on after hours? I would imagine it would be to allow patron of the library access to information that does not require an employee to be present. Wow... maybe they do want to allow access... Or if they are not smart enough to install a solution they could just unplug the danged router!
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Especially if that cop has been told that he needs to improve his arrest numbers if he wants to get promoted. That could well be the case here.
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Start knocking on the neighbors doors
Somebody mentioned earlier that TV signals are bouncing around in the air yet it's not legal to steal those.
Well, for satellite that's true because it's not a FREE service.
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Re: Start knocking on the neighbors doors
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go away
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Just asking
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where does it stop?
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He committed no crime
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Free WiFi
Nuf Said!
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Free WiFi
Mr. B
PS Cops Suck!
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Did I mention
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What a waste of everyones time.
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Get A Job and move out of you parents house!!
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End... of... Story.
Kid was told he was doing something "illegal" by a law enforcement officer. He then went and "Committed" the offense again. This is why his laptop was confiscated. They can simply check the MAC ID of his card, check the logs of the library's router and there you have proof that he was indeed using the service.
The service however is free, funded by the public, and no agency has any jurisdiction to interfere with its use unless the library itself requests they do so. Considering the library and police are both run by the city, I'm sure a lawyer could argue the city was just protecting itself in this case. Seeing as they didn't take the responsibility to implement any form of security to prohibit access, more importantly to a public service (that which the public has the right to access) it is then perfectly legal to use it (such as city parks, however if there are signs that state park use only between 8am-6pm then any use of the park outside those designated hours can be considered illegal). This goes for even the private individual, or any business. If you can get an UHFVHF antenna and receive any HD programming in the airwaves you're completely entitled to do so (as there's no security measures in place). Same goes for the un-encrypted satellite signals.
As far as decrypter boxes goes I suggest you read the following to gain some insight unto the laws regarding them. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=9th&navby=case&no=9655308
Now according to most state and federal law(s) the kid committed no crime, should never have had his laptop confiscated, and the police officer should be suspended or put under review by the DA. Not saying he wasn't trying to do his job, or abusing his powers, although it may be the case. You cannot argue this point without having any proof, and the only proof you can derive from these articles is that he misunderstood the law.
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Re: End... of... Story.
If ignorance of the law is no excuse for the average citizen, it surely isn't for someone whose job it is to enforce the law. Especially when that someone could have easily called-in to the station for legal advice if he wasn't sure. Just no excuse.
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Practical solution
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Myth that Police have power
Can anyone please identify which law/s were broken that allowed for said search and sezure of personal property? Was a warrant issued? Did the perpitrator have their Miranda Rights read?
If not, then the officer was abusing his power, and someone should file a complaint with internal investigations.
Otherwise, the officer will remain unchecked, and things could certainly get worse.
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Re: Myth that Police have power
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Theft? Unauthorized use of the city's oxygen.
Much as I admire cops, it sounds like this one decided to hassle the kid and made up his reasons after the fact. (Yes, some cops are actually jerks - not many, but some). I've got some real 4th amendment problems with confiscating this dimwit's machine.
Best guess is the kid smarted off to the cop and basically cooked his own stew. Personally, I knew everything when I was 21. I've since learned better.
I had a business partner a long time ago that simply hated cops - all of them, and unreasonably so. Every time he got pulled over for a traffic stop, which was frequently, he would get so obnoxiously belligerent he'd get a trip to jail on top of his ticket. I bailed him out of jail once, and the desk sergeant (who was a pretty nice guy) pulled me aside and told me that this arrest was purely voluntary and completely avoidable. He suggested that I get my friend some help, and he was right.
Some people just don't know when to keep their mouths shut. I wonder if there isn't something like that going on here.
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Loitering.
Always,
Bill
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Re: Loitering.
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It is not stealing if nothing is taken
And confiscating the laptop is his way of throwing the book at the kid and running him off for good. Never piss off a cop because they will do their best to find something to charge you with. They throw the book at you hitting you with everything they can think of and see what sticks. Cops are such pricks.
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What it all comes down to is....
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Re:
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Cops Were Doing Their Job
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Re: Cops Were Doing Their Job
I bet you are. I also bet that you are someone exempt from such treatment. A body cavity search would probably do you good.
So the kid goes home, does some research and finds out that the cops were lying and that he was doing nothing wrong. The next time the cops, not caring much about the law, just decide to arrest him and rob him of his laptop.
Why? What law was he breaking?
It really sucks to share a country with fascists.
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My front door is open and unlocked. You are not allowed to use my kitchen.
My car door is open and unlocked. You are not allowed to use my radio.
The police station door is open and unlocked. You are not allowed to use the assault rifles.
The bakery door is open and unlocked. You are not allowed to eat the pastries (without paying first).
etc. etc.
Open and unencrypted is not synonymous with free for use, though I admit this case sounds like there is a bit more to it than meets the eye. Perhaps they guy was navigating his browser with one hand, if you know what I mean.
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Re:
this particular kitchen was open, unlocked, publically owned and INTENDED FOR PUBLIC USE.
that's quite a bit different than leaving your front door open.
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Maybe that's why it's illegal to leave your car door open and unlocked. Duh.
Even if they invite you in to do so?
Even if the sign says "Free. Take some."?
Etc. etc. is right.
Are you claiming to know something about this case not that the rest of us don't or are you just making up more stuff? You sure sound like an ISP turf troll, if you know what I mean.
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POLICY from Wasilla, AK
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Back to the original question...
I don't think it should be considered theft.
In my previous post I said I felt the officer had the right to investigate his repeat nightly visits to the library parking lot. If I was the officer and realized that it was a 21 year old guy playing video games on the library's WIFI I would just leave him alone. No crime is being committed.
BUT!!! if there was a sign in the parking lot that said "No Visitors After Hours". Then I would give him one warning and then I arrest him for trespassing if I saw him do it again.
Taking the laptop is out of the officers right. Unless the library IT staff had previously reported after hours internet "misuse" then the cop had no reason or right to take the guys laptop.
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Summary of all this crap
(yes, there are just plain bad cops, same as bad IT guys, bad geeks, bad librarians, etc, etc)
I am a librarian geek and manage IT at a university library, and our campus wifi is secured and limited to current university students and staff. However, even if you had free wifi in your coffee shop (we have a couple here), you'd have a right to run a guy out who never bought anything....loitering.
Even if the library "didn't have a timer yet" or whatever, nothing would prevent the last person out from hitting a switch, pulling cable, etc.
The "kid" (of course really an adult) has a whole different problem of living at home and having strange and unreasonable (at least to me) rules to live under. Of course the solution to that is easy: MOVE OUT.
Should the charges be dropped? Theft of services, yes. Loitering, no. Other charges for reisting a lawful order of an officer, resisting arrest, viewing kiddie porn, exposing himself, whatever, no.
Meanwhile, I can only hope the library gets its act together in the IT realm. Libraries do NOT need this kind of bad press.
the old honu
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Re: Summary of all this crap
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Read the article
This whole story is about a cop who got a little too big for his britches and decided to stop a kid form getting on the net by taking his computer away. And now the cop is trying to get a search warrant for the computer to see if he was downloading files on the computer. The fact is if you get on a cops bad side they hit you with everything they have. They are such pricks with there respect me or else attitudes.
I hate the bacon.
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Police State
The police will use any excuse they feel like to deprive you of your freedom and property. They will force you to comply with their will because our country has turned away from freedom and the same impulse that created Guantanomo Bay influences everyone in authority.
They have the guns. You must submit. It's a really good idea to start voting for people that believe in limited police powers, opposition to torture, freedom of speech and the separation of church and state because these small town tyrants are just the tip of the iceberg.
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I would sue the police for taking my laptop
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Police sux
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No.
I get sick and tired of seeing young and old people taking up computers at public libraries to chat and check their MySpace accounts. I did some work for a public library in Kings Mountain, North Carolina and saw just that. The staff did nothing about it. They didn't seem to care. I knew for a fact that 9/10 visitors were regulars using the computers to talk dirty on Yahoo! Chat, yet no one cared. They didn't want to "run off" their visitors.
He was playing World of Warcraft. Open free access or not, he had no right to be there. It was after hours and he had no business being in the parking lot. That's reason enough to look suspicious and get searched.
He shouldn't have had his laptop seized, but he also should not have been playing World of Warcraft using library public Wi-Fi access.
If he had been using the access to do what it was intended for, then he had a reason and a right to be parked in a public parking lot (created by tax payer's money) using those services. Otherwise, he shouldn't have been there.
That's how it is and that's how it should be.
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Re: No.
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LOL
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Public use wireless
The cop messed up here. At most the kid could be gotten for is remaining after being asked to leave. No the previous night does not count as the warning to leave. He was using public service for his use as granted by the library by leaving the wireless on.
Any sys admin worth anything knows how to use a proxy and set it up for certain times only. DUH so this sys admin is a total loser...
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