Are Independent DVDs Running Into Trouble? Where Did Netflix And Amazon Go?

from the something's-not-right dept

Mon, Mar 5th 2007 12:25am — Mike Masnick

There's a very odd article in the NY Times about how the DVDs of lesser known moviemakers, mainly independent film makers, may be running into trouble -- though the actual reasons are not at all clear. It starts out by suggesting that the DVD market is simply overcrowded, that there's a "glut" of content, and that means the companies releasing these DVDs have to compete much more heavily with other, more popular, DVDs. It then notes that with the demise of stores like Tower Records and Warehouse Music (and some Mom & Pop shops), what remains are mainly the big box stores, like Target, Wal-Mart and Best Buy, who stock a very small selection of hits.

However, as you read through the article, there should be something clawing at the back of your brain, not fully making sense -- and, certainly, a few people noticed it. The article doesn't mention things like Netflix or Amazon at all. The crowd of folks who tend to like these more independent films are also the type of folks more likely to know about Netflix and Amazon -- and, you would actually think that this would help, not hurt, the independent movie distributors. After all, they can now send those movies to a single source who can market nationally (or, in some cases, internationally) to a very interested target audience, without having to establish relationships with each and every local retailer. More importantly, a big part of the benefit of both Netflix and Amazon is that they help cut through that glut in supply to better recommend what you might want to see. If anything, they should be talked about as helping build the independent DVD distribution market. You would think that the NY Times would look to explain why this isn't so (if it isn't so), but the article doesn't even mention it. If it's true that sites like Netflix and Amazon aren't helping the sale of independent videos that would completely go against the concept of "The Long Tail," which would make a very interesting case study to examine -- but without further information, it's tough to figure out what's happening here.

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26 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 5 Mar 2007 @ 12:49am

NY Times Research Department
This could possibly be due to lack of research by the writer (Bryan Reesman) of the NY Times article - it's not like it had never happened before....
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AC, 5 Mar 2007 @ 2:46am

"However, as you read through the article, there should be something clawing at the back of your brain, not fully making sense -- and, certainly, a few people noticed it. The article doesn't mention things like Netflix or Amazon at all."

" If it's true that sites like Netflix and Amazon aren't helping the sale of independent videos that would completely go against the concept of "The Long Tail," which would make a very interesting case study to examine -- but without further information, it's tough to figure out what's happening here."

Perhaps they were going for subliminal advertising, since Netflix has a massive banner ad on the page. As for whether Netflix helps the so-called "long-tail" - it actively does so, as it even gotten into active indie film distribution: http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/12/08/AM200612081.html

To me, this read like a Netflix ad that doesn't mention Netflix (might have been too ad-like for the NYT), but everybody knows what they,re talking about. Especially with the subliminal banner ads. ;)
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Pangolin, 5 Mar 2007 @ 3:55am

I understand Amazon but not Netflix
While I understand your point about Amazon the Netflix comment doesn't make sense. Netflix need only purchase a few DVDs and rent them over and over. The content owner is only going to be paid or these few DVD's and not every rental of the DVD.
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GoblinJuice, 5 Mar 2007 @ 4:02am

Most of the DVDs I actually buy are indy. Then again, I'm not normal. ;-)
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MrPaladin, 5 Mar 2007 @ 4:25am

Crap in a box is still crap...
See the award shows where they give big awards to movies noones ever heard of, or to movies like 'an inconvienient truth'

those movies arnt good... and you can wrap them any way you want, they still stink...

If the independant movies was actually good walmart would stock it cause it would sell...

this article is more liberal crap about how I'm ment to feel guilty for the little guy who cant do anything right...
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ScaredOfTheMan, 5 Mar 2007 @ 4:26am

I thought Indy DVD would lead the way with DRM Free downloads like "In Search of the Valley". Indy's are in great position to change the game on the main stream content producers. They can make distribution choices thatlarger studios simply cannot.
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Michael Long, 5 Mar 2007 @ 5:03am

Re: I understand Amazon but not Netflix
Agree about Netflix. How many copies of a little-known indie movie are they likely to stock? A dozen? Fifty? Even if they had 100, that would only be $1,000 or so at wholesale prices.

Kind of hard to finance a major independent production for just a grand in sales.
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AC, 5 Mar 2007 @ 5:27am

"Agree about Netflix. How many copies of a little-known indie movie are they likely to stock? A dozen? Fifty? Even if they had 100, that would only be $1,000 or so at wholesale prices.

Kind of hard to finance a major independent production for just a grand in sales."

Netflix has actually gotten into indie film production and distribution. Not just rental. See: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.09/netflix.html

So they do seem to be putting their money where their mouth is.
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j, 5 Mar 2007 @ 6:15am

pay per view
"Send me 500 DVDs. Every time it rents, we'll pay you something." - Netflix exec.

MrPaladin - Your logic is as poor as your English, please go rant somewhere else.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Mar 2007 @ 6:27am

Re: Crap in a box is still crap...
Ah yes ... Walmart. Distributor of all that is good ... HA!
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Obama, 5 Mar 2007 @ 6:54am

Re: Crap in a box is still crap...
this article is more liberal crap
Maybe so, but most conservatives are educated so that when they rant, it's at least readable by the liberals......
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pudro, 5 Mar 2007 @ 7:46am

Re: Re: I understand Amazon but not Netflix
You don't know what you are talking about. Buying wholesale and renting is illegal.

Someone quoted a Netflix exec as saying "Send me 500 DVDs. Every time it rents, we'll pay you something."

So apparently they don't use a standard rental model here, but even if they did use a standard model, they would be paying far more than $10 per DVD.
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Stoney Heflin, 5 Mar 2007 @ 8:19am

Re: Re: I understand Amazon but not Netflix
Not so much a comment as a question - Will the used of physical disc media diminish as Internet broadband and new triends home electronics create a more favorable atmosphere for purchasing movies online and storing them on hard drives. I get 80% of the films I watch via iTunes and store it digitally. My kids are already talking about storing movies in Digital Dolby and Hi-def on their Xbox 360 via service from Microsoft online. I have friend who own devices called fireballs that store all their movies they easily roll those out for use on their Zunes and iPods (a real headache with DVD)... I wonder about the long term vialbility of DVD in general. It may seem like a long way, but things happen fast now.
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JJ, 5 Mar 2007 @ 9:04am

A lot of these independent movies did a lot better than they should have because of the limited selection of new DVD's. This really helped fuel more indepedant movies.

If I go to blockbuster, and see that there are only 3 new releases and one is an independant movie, I might rent that independant movie. This is especially true if I saw the other 2 in the theater.

Some of the movies were great, some really were terrible. If the movie was great, we might even buy it. The fact is, many of us watch them because of the limited supply.

Movie companies got smart and started releasing their own terrible crap straight to DVD. Now the competition for the movies is starting to normalize.
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David Cameron, 5 Mar 2007 @ 9:25am

First Raw Footage Completed
Being new to this biz, it was a bit disheartening to read this article since I just finished my first nature documentary filming of a famous lake that includes some great underwater footage. I just hope it's good enough to eliminate any drop in returns since this market is on a downward turn. I guess time will tell once I edit the good footage and search for a buyer. To my knowledge, this is the first type of nature film to be marketed, so my hopes are high.
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citizenj, 5 Mar 2007 @ 9:44am

RE: Crap in a box...
Yeah, it doesn't have car crashes, gunfights or boobs, so it must be COMPLETE CRAP.

uh huh, go back to listening to Britney and watching Schwarzenegger movies, you hack.

Indie films have emotional depth, character development, storylines that aren't schlock and actual ACTING. Don't believe me? Try 'my own private idaho' or 'spanking the monkey' or anything else on the Netflix indie list or hey, if you can read well enough (which i doubt you can judging from the spelling errors in your post) you could even try a foreign film with (GASP) subtitles. Indies aren't often heard of because they don't have the huge marketing budget that the major studios have, but trust me, their films are just as good and some are even better.
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dorpass, 5 Mar 2007 @ 9:46am

Re:
Perhaps they were going for subliminal advertising, since Netflix has a massive banner ad on the page. As for whether Netflix helps the so-called "long-tail" - it actively does so, as it even gotten into active indie film distribution: http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/12/08/AM200612081.html

To me, this read like a Netflix ad that doesn't mention Netflix (might have been too ad-like for the NYT), but everybody knows what they,re talking about. Especially with the subliminal banner ads. ;)

AC, that was just dumb. Today it's a banner ad for Monster. Are you going to tell me that since the article implies indie movies are osing, the subliminal ad suggests that the artists/directors/etc of those movies should go look for a job on Monster?

Oh wait, if you reload, it's a classmates.com ad, I guess now it hints that you should look for a couch to sleep on at one of your classmates' since you are a poor indie film maker.

If you can't figure out how a banner ad works on a website, may be you should chill with opinion pieces there.
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GoblinJuice, 5 Mar 2007 @ 2:47pm

Uh....
@citizenj - What's wrong with gunfights, boobs and car crashes? Sounds like a fun Friday night! :-D

Just because a movie is "indy" doesn't automatically mean it's better than the crap produced by Hollywood.

Jesus knows how many crappy, horrible, boring "indy" movies there are.

Like I said earlier, most of the DVDs I actually buy are indy.

If it's good, I'll buy a copy. If it's not, I won't. No matter who produced / directed / wrote the script in crayon, how much they spent, etc. :-D
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Karlos, 7 Mar 2007 @ 9:09pm

Re: Re: Re: I understand Amazon but not Netflix
"You don't know what you are talking about. Buying wholesale and renting is illegal."

I'm not sure what you mean. Anything that you legally buy, you can legally rent. I can buy movies at wholesale prices and rent them out all day long.

As far at the "Send me 500 DVDs. Every time it rents, we'll pay you something" quote, I'll point out that, under this model, if I've got some tiny little indie film and I send Netflix 10 copies and it rents a hundred times over the next year, I'm a lot better off than if I send them 500 copies and it still rents a hundred times.
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johnnyallenshaw, 13 Mar 2007 @ 12:17pm

"My Big Fat Homeless Berkeley Movie"
Oh, good. I thought I was the only one.

My name's Johnny Allen Shaw. I made a movie while homeless in Berkeley, CA., USA from 2005-2006. People like it. Its on the shelves at our big record stores and is available on IndieFlix.com. I'm still homeless, but the movie is picking up and leading me on.

The trailer for "MBFHBM" is on YouTube.com:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j3loxu4MG8c

My website:

http://www.freewebs.com/transitionsvideo

My first review:

http://roguecinema.com/article-931--0-0.html

To order ($10):

http://indieflix.com/FilmDetail.aspx?tid=7831&name=My%20Big%20Fat%20Homeless%20Berkele y%20Movie

I thought you might like to know.

Thanks,

Johnny Allen Shaw
CEO and ED
Transitions Video
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johnnyallenshaw, 13 Mar 2007 @ 12:17pm

"My Big Fat Homeless Berkeley Movie"
Oh, good. I thought I was the only one.

My name's Johnny Allen Shaw. I made a movie while homeless in Berkeley, CA., USA from 2005-2006. People like it. Its on the shelves at our big record stores and is available on IndieFlix.com. I'm still homeless, but the movie is picking up and leading me on.

The trailer for "MBFHBM" is on YouTube.com:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j3loxu4MG8c

My website:

http://www.freewebs.com/transitionsvideo

My first review:

http://roguecinema.com/article-931--0-0.html

To order ($10):

http://indieflix.com/FilmDetail.aspx?tid=7831&name=My%20Big%20Fat%20Homeless%20Berkele y%20Movie

I thought you might like to know.

Thanks,

Johnny Allen Shaw
CEO and ED
Transitions Video
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James, 25 Mar 2007 @ 9:19pm

IN HAND IMPULSE RENT
I work at a large corporate movie rental store and I can tell you a lot of movies rented by people are impulse/mood grabs. In other words, when you think about waiting several days (and in the case of amazon) paying extra for shipping. Putting your money on an unknown movie that could very well suck is a much harder sell than if you have the thing in hand and if it sucks you can return it and get another one before the night is over. Netflix and Amazon will never be able to overcome this.
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scobb, 25 May 2007 @ 2:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: I understand Amazon but not Netfli
What a lot of people here seem to miss is that you cannot 'buy' a movie at a store like Walmart or Amazon. You never own such a movie. Just like you don't own the contents of a book.

What you CAN buy is a license to watch, under a very limited set of circumstances, the movie recorded on the piece of plastic you take out of the store. Violating that license is a Federal offense. Sure you CAN rent out a DVD that you bought at Walmart but you can also go to jail for doing so. Video rental companies obviously pay a much higher price than retail for the DVDs they rent out.

Respectfully...scobb
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Rodger, 14 Jun 2007 @ 8:41pm

First Sale Doctrine
There seems to be some confusion here.

The First Sale Doctrine of US Copyright Law allows for the sale or rental of DVDs or video games without the prior consent of the copyright holder. This doctrine is exactly what allows Blockbuster, video stores, then eventually NetFlix to exist. The law is VERY clear here.

iLetYou ( http://www.iletyou.com ) allows you to rent out the DVDs and Games you legally own by creating your own rental store or rent from other stores in the community.
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Michael Palombo, 1 May 2008 @ 7:36am

IS NETFLIX THINKING ABOUT THE INDY/INDIE FILMMAKERS
Hey all, We've been cooking up some fun ideas at filmmakershelp, and we have a message to all filmmakers out there that would like to get help, or find ways to help filmmakers find solutions to monetize their content and finance future projects. We've got quite a group of talent already gathered at the filmmakershelp website. Some of our members have been busy creating tutorial videos only found here on the free social site, in order to really help filmmakers. One of the popular interests of our particular group is the contest for helping Netflix with a more effective solution for recommending new films to users. The currently employed offered are nearly all about some program or mathematical algorithms. My personal viewpoint is that they are missing their most valuable assets; The members. But first following some of the most obvious trends, let's take a look at what the public wants: Let's look at the trend of social element being part of all the major online players for content on the web. We see Youtube growing even now after reaching an average of 52 million visits a month. Myspace is actually on a tend to outdo the mighty Google for traffic, along with Facebook and more sites and membership programs are popping up daily. Looking at this topic from a sociologist's standpoint one could surmise that people are moving farther apart and want to more than ever belong to something, to fit somewhere, associate with something, be heard and respected by their peers. Next we look at the content available, Youtube and blip.tv, as well as Google and the others have dominated the user generated content market by getting the audience involved. They put the most popular videos om the front page giving the users that are most effective at getting attention even more popularity and status within the group. Now Youtube is opening profit sharing opportunities with this new breed of social filmmaker, and growing even more because of it. This is the online viewing audience. and they are looking for content. If accurately tagged and reviewed by the public (an option for the member). I say give the public a chance and like with wikipedia you could be surprised what becomes of it. Wiki has redefined mans view of fellow man in a way and in general we want to have our line in the page if we know for sure, we're helping. I think there is a social network solution to the Netflix contest issue give this new social filmmaker a place in the system. Here's a possible scenario: Netflix Social Solution The real essence of the system has to be the focus on the social system, bloggers, video bloggers, and podcasters compete to be reviewers or critics and the social network picks the ones they want to listen to.This way bloggers and this new breed of social filmmakers become critics (and of course have their paid Netflix membership) to watch and review the films thus becoming potentially professional movie critics,(and who doesn't want that job?) the critic after watching the film, leaves a review that covers quality, genre', acting, and or story contents(but not giving away the plot surprises)and recommended list of similar movies with each review.(Herein lies the secret to effective film association.) The social network then comes in and comments on the reviews, the reviewer getting a large number on positive comments (and rating stars)should be paid by the content provider with a standard to be set by the provider, (rating and popularity, number of completed views, etc.) In this way the public knows how the system works and the potential of getting paid to blog is integrated, thereby embracing all the current trends of the web. Honestly, I predict that the solution ultimately derived from this contest will look similar to what I have outlined here. But I'm also willing to put my money where my mouth is, I can create the website and run the beta test through a service I recently discovered and would call it netflixindyHey all, We've been cooking up some fun ideas at filmmakershelp, and we have a message to all filmmakers out there that would like to get help, or find ways to help filmmakers find solutions to monetize their content and finance future projects. We've got quite a group of talent already gathered at the filmmakershelp website. Some of our members have been busy creating tutorial videos only found here on the free social site, in order to really help filmmakers. One of the popular interests of our particular group is the contest for helping Netflix with a more effective solution for recommending new films to users. The currently employed offered are nearly all about some program or mathematical algorithms. My personal viewpoint is that they are missing their most valuable assets; The members. But first following some of the most obvious trends, let's take a look at what the public wants: Let's look at the trend of social element being part of all the major online players for content on the web. We see Youtube growing even now after reaching an average of 52 million visits a month. Myspace is actually on a tend to outdo the mighty Google for traffic, along with Facebook and more sites and membership programs are popping up daily. Looking at this topic from a sociologist's standpoint one could surmise that people are moving farther apart and want to more than ever belong to something, to fit somewhere, associate with something, be heard and respected by their peers. Next we look at the content available, Youtube and blip.tv, as well as Google and the others have dominated the user generated content market by getting the audience involved. They put the most popular videos om the front page giving the users that are most effective at getting attention even more popularity and status within the group. Now Youtube is opening profit sharing opportunities with this new breed of social filmmaker, and growing even more because of it. This is the online viewing audience. and they are looking for content. If accurately tagged and reviewed by the public (an option for the member). I say give the public a chance and like with wikipedia you could be surprised what becomes of it. Wiki has redefined mans view of fellow man in a way and in general we want to have our line in the page if we know for sure, we're helping. I think there is a social network solution to the Netflix contest issue give this new social filmmaker a place in the system. Here's a possible scenario: Netflix Social Solution The real essence of the system has to be the focus on the social system, bloggers, video bloggers, and podcasters compete to be reviewers or critics and the social network picks the ones they want to listen to.This way bloggers and this new breed of social filmmakers become critics (and of course have their paid Netflix membership) to watch and review the films thus becoming potentially professional movie critics,(and who doesn't want that job?) the critic after watching the film, leaves a review that covers quality, genre', acting, and or story contents(but not giving away the plot surprises)and recommended list of similar movies with each review.(Herein lies the secret to effective film association.) The social network then comes in and comments on the reviews, the reviewer getting a large number on positive comments (and rating stars)should be paid by the content provider with a standard to be set by the provider, (rating and popularity, number of completed views, etc.) In this way the public knows how the system works and the potential of getting paid to blog is integrated, thereby embracing all the current trends of the web. Honestly, I predict that the solution ultimately derived from this contest will look similar to what I have outlined here. But I'm also willing to put my money where my mouth is, I can create the website and run the beta test through a service I recently discovered and would call it netflixindy or netflixindie I think if netflix was thinking about the indy filmmakers they would own those url's but as of today Mellon Mountain Productions owns http://www.netflixindy.com and http://www.netflixindie.com
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Rob Ellis, 21 Oct 2008 @ 5:53pm

plagerism is illegal
Michael Palombo is cut and pasting the blog I wrote and not giving credit. Again criminal activity in ignorance is no excuse. You will find the above was written originally by someone other than he that posted as filmmakershelp when this was written and linked to the Netflix prize forum.
[ link to this | view in thread ]