H-1B Visas Exhausted In Record Time; Think It's Time To Raise The Cap?
from the going-going-gone dept
Every year, the story is pretty much the same with H-1B visas, as tech companies quickly gobble them up, prompting the inevitable debate of whether more should be made available the following year. Everybody knew this year would be a mess, but in case there were any doubt that demand for these visas far exceeds their supply, the government has said that it's run out of them after only one day of availability. Employers now realize that there's no sense in waiting around and running the risk that they won't get alloted any, so they all apply on the first day. The fact that they're exhausted so quickly should make people realize that more should be made available, but there are some politicians who are completely opposed to the system, since they see it as just a way for companies to import cheap foreign labor. But their stance doesn't really hold up. For one thing, it's hard to imagine that companies would go through all of this trouble if it were just about saving money, as opposed to filling gaps in talent. Furthermore, if companies can't bring employees from abroad, then they'll just move more operations overseas, which is something these politicians would find even more troublesome. The real problem is that politicians see everything as a black or white, zero sum game. Some see it as foreign workers stealing American jobs, while others view it as greedy managers selling out American laborers to further line their own pockets. But these simple viewpoints don't capture the reality of the tech industry, which is far more dynamic. The US economy, and the tech industry in particular, benefits from from immigrant workers, while the traditional delineation between management and labor doesn't really apply in an industry where most workers have a large stake in the success of their firm.
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but it sure is frustrating not being able to understand them
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Yhat's the system---agent companies dewal with the bureaucracy, the user companies just consider them cheap workers.
The H1 system is supposed to help foreigners learn new skills her that they take back to their own countries. In fact, they are exploited for the skills they already have.
The smart ones hire lawyers to free them from peonage or marry US citizens in order to get green cards the easy way.
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Re: GARY
The vast majority if not all H1 applicants have to show they have the education and skills to carry out their function, otherwise they are not allowed here.
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Oh Please
The reason they don't ship it all overseas is because there is too much loss of control over the process and employees and that results in more time and thus more cost. What they want is to bring those workers over here so they can get much lower wages and keep closer oversight and control. That way they can easily discern the wheat from the chaff, keep the former at low wage, discard the latter with no penalties - thus lower overall costs.
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Simple supply and demand; the more open positions employers have and the longer they stay open, the more they will have to pay for an applicant.
As the pay scale goes up, more people enter the field.
Keep outsourcing work and importing H1-B's and nobody will want to go into IT. And the people already there will want to leave.
Hire some people and train them if you have too. There are plenty of experienced IT people looking for work!
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Are you kidding me?
As has been said, it's all about the money. The H1B folks are either brought here, taught an American's job, and sent back offshore, or they are here to be the contact for the offshore teams.
BTW, did you know companies get a large tax break for sending jobs offshore? Did you know that without this companies likely would not save enough money to make the investment worthwhile. Want to slow the bleeding of American jobs? Push congress and upcoming Presidential candidates to remove this corporate tax break.
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Saving Money
Umm, WHO cannot imagine that?!
It's exactly about saving money. My company (actually, our outsoure "partner") does exactly that. The people brought in from offshore are paid SH*T wages for being here.
The reason the companies do this is because it's very difficult to deal with offshore presonnel. Crappy phone connections, 12 hour time differences, language problems, the hassle of trying to collaborate with someone half a world away, all make for good reasons to have your people on shore and sitting next to you. If you can get them here AND pay them less than 1/3 of what you pay your regular onshore personnel, you will save money and improve productivity.
That's the bottom line.
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Re: Saving Money
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Anyone actually works for internation company?
For people that claim there is no such thing as professional labor shortage, get your noses out of your butts and check out industries other than code monkeying.
For Ron: I work with people in my company in 4 time zones, 12 hour difference is common, my phone lines and video feeds work just fine. Your claims about dealing with offshore personnel are just ignorant, if it was indeed that difficult, you wouldn't have all of semiconductor industry spread throughout the world, from Asia to America to Europe.
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Not all companies....
Our company is willing to pay normal wages just to get the talent we need in the office. We have had positions open for awhile now and the programmers who come in to apply are not very talented or just do not seem that interested in moving to our company. Most of them expected us to send them code to work on so they can work from home and not have to move.
Maybe if lazy American tech people would get off their butts and try to compete with some of the H1B visa holders we wouldn't have this problem.
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The real tragedy
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A self reliant country makes a lot more sense in the long term.
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Re:
That's like saying all companies should hire High school graduates and train them instead of hiring college graduates, because hiring the college grad is lazy on the companies part. Get a clue.
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Tech
The foriegn talent is of lesser quality, and is causing the whole tech industry in the states to atrophy. Once people come in and are willing to accept less, the field itself becomes cheapened. Who in their right mind is going to go to college for EE or CS these days - it's hard, doesn't pay much, isn't well respected anymore (you're more like a mechanic - hell tech support is looked upon as higher than engineering these days), and you get absolutely zero perks (can't write shit off in taxes, pay for everything out of your taxed paycheck).
Me? I'm sort of trapped - but i'm looking for a way out, believe me - you don't have to be a fortune teller to see that this future isn't easy living.
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Re: Tech
And foreign talent is of lesser quality... less than what? The non-existent, all-American engineer? You have got to be smoking something bad ass, because your statements have no support whatsoever.
And Bruce, since you don't see any shortage of professional, can you please forward 4 test engineer resumes, 3 designer resumes and 2 product engineer resumes to me, we can't find any decent professional in US or any where else, so since you got a boat load ready to go, send them over.
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It's time to raise OUR number of tech graduates
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Re: It's time to raise OUR number of tech graduate
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http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070226-8924.html
It IS all about the money!
I've yet to see anyone prove that the people to fill the positions are unavailable.
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Re:
Is that enough proof?
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Been there
Yes, outsourcers abuse the system, some others too. However we are not all on our way to distinguished careers in Indian outsourcing centers. Some of us came here to make a contribution and have a great career. Where I work now 40 highly (and lower) skilled people have jobs because of me. Innovation knows no boundaries, business enviroments are just easier in some countries. Unless the definition of "specialty worker" encompassed more than a half assed associates' degree and slave wages (that is the reality) are stopped, the abuse will continue.
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Hello! Welcome to the real world!
Unfortunately that’s not the case, most of the time in the tech realm. I used to work for a large company (aka: big blue) that hired a ton of H1B visa employees to fill contractual requirements. Most of these people were hired in to fill a SA position, but were titled “junior SA” so they could pay them 1/3 the cost. For the most part they were clueless.
Two things came into play that facilitated their hiring. First, the company was being paid to have a warm body in that position. If they could do it at a third of the cost, well, let’s just say my wonderful boss (-itch) could increase her bonus for that quarter.
Second, the cost of actually obtaining the H1B didn’t come out of her budget. The legal department paid for all the associated costs. That was fine with them, because they could then justify getting more money in their budge, “because they had so much more business.”
In the long run, it may not be about the bottom line, but it’s always about money, to someone.
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Agree with #18
Increasing our number of professionals is the only way the US will still be on top in 10 or so years.
But I suppose if those in power actually cared about our own nation, they wouldn't make as much money (which is really the only thing that matters to them). To those in power who want to kill or lessen the H1B, GO FOR IT!!
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Isn't it odd...
I am an immigrant myself, originally on an L1-B which means I was employed by a US company overseas who sponsored my visa. I am still employed by the same software company 10 years later and now have a green card, also sponsored by the company. My company also sponsors many H1-B visas and as far as I am aware pays them about the market rate.
I have said many times in the past 10 years that the biggest problem this country faces is the failure of the education system to produce enough tech graduates. America needs to face the fact that it is no longer prmiarily a manufacturing country, manufacturing jobs are dwindling while tech workers are in short supply. We need to get the kids interested in technology and motivated to learn if we are to compete in the global workplace.
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Isn't it odd...
I am an immigrant myself, originally on an L1-B which means I was employed by a US company overseas who sponsored my visa. I am still employed by the same software company 10 years later and now have a green card, also sponsored by the company. My company also sponsors many H1-B visas and as far as I am aware pays them about the market rate.
I have said many times in the past 10 years that the biggest problem this country faces is the failure of the education system to produce enough tech graduates. America needs to face the fact that it is no longer prmiarily a manufacturing country, manufacturing jobs are dwindling while tech workers are in short supply. We need to get the kids interested in technology and motivated to learn if we are to compete in the global workplace.
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Re: Isn't it odd...
We need to stop complaining about Visa's and tech jobs going oversea's! If we need to complain then let's target our sorry educational system that hold's talented youth back, not because of other children struggling to keep up but because our teachers are some of the worst imaginable. I challenge anyone to honestly count the number of great mentors you've had in school. Your a lucky one if you reach five.
We need smarter and better teachers. Maybe we should look at bringing foreigners in to teach our children, they will make better money and the education levels will rise!
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Been there, done that
- work at the base salary, (no incentives, raises or bonuses necessary)
- work nights and weekends
- cut corners on quality and security if asked, (not out of a lack of pride but out of fear.)
Compared to the Americans who demanded things like weekends, comparable pay for quality work, and that the product live up to a standard, well... they couldn't fire us fast enough.
The only consolation is that the quality of their products got so poor, (once again, not because the H1Bs were stupid, they just couldn't stand up to bad requirements), that the office was eventually closed and those manager were let go.
The reality is that the people who make the decisions at the companies aren't necessarily the "big picture" guys and so most definitely, "just saving a little money" is a big motivator for them. Having employees who will grovel at your feet is just a side benefit.
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What a load of shit
I am the only white guy at an otherwise completely Indian Company. They hold the H1-B over peoples heads like some kind of dagger. No one dares ask for better benefits or higher pay or cost of living pay increases for fear of not getting an H1 and/or losing resident status and being sent back to India. Believe me. This is what *most* companies do to their foreign employees. They wave a bit of freedom in their face to get them to agree to what amounts to slave labor with a paycheck. They get treated like shit and take it because they're only other option is to go back to India.
I have seen a lot of bad shit at this company and don't plan to hang around much longer than my contract says I have to.
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Not a great idea, for engineers anyways.
I've had about 20 interviews now, and each one has had at least 10 other applicants. My last interview I was up against 12 other people, one of whom was a fifteen year veteran of ford who got laid off and was looking for anything to feed his family. As far as I'm concerned they ought to consider lowering the caps, considering the current job market. This isn't about "feriners takin er jobs", it's about a glut of engineers in the market.
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Re: Not a great idea, for engineers anyways.
Have you tried looking for jobs elsewhere in the US? Like Maybe Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, and Idaho? These states are now starting to get into the technological swing of things. Engineers and Tech people are badly needed.
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Re: Not a great idea, for engineers anyways.
here where I work, I'm lucky enough not to have my H1B as a dagger on my neck, and we're willing to hire talent, no matter where its from, if its american better, less hassle, but sometimes companies have a need of people that have very special skills and you just feel like its very hard to get them right here, most of the good people are taken, or they're way too expensive cause they know they're pretty good.
And H1B's are supposed to be paid fairly like an american employee, the H1B is not for people to come and "learn" skills here, its actually a "Special Skilled Worker" visa, you get it because you already have the skills that a company couldn't find in previous attempts to hire american citizens.
The IT market is awesome at this moment, there's way too many jobs.
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Lazy Americans
Ya ya, college graduates are on the rise but most people graduate with stupid degrees that mean nothing in the real world. So where do companies look to fill in the increasing hole of technically able Americans? Other countries. Places where people aren't spoiled brats and work their butts off. So if Americans are going to stay competitive in the future work force......get off your butts and DO something with your lives.
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compromise
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thank you #39 for confessing that its about money
I wish more pro hb-1 people were this honest. The paragraph above is an honest confession: Your employer pays below market rates. The only prospects who accept such rates are HB-1 employees.
"And H1B's are supposed to be paid fairly like an american employee"
That not an accurate description of your employer. Your employer's description should read:
"We underpay H1B's. We would underpay american employees equally if we could find them"
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Bull!!!
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No Americans want the jobs
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Re: No Americans want the jobs
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I hate to admit it, but he's right...
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Another perspective from an ex-H1-B holder
At the time I arrived there was high demand for tech folks; I was not exploited... though I have had a manager threaten to replace me with a team of Indian Programmers (I called his bluff and asked him if he could communicate with them. He backed down and mellowed out). However, I have heard a lot of horror stories, and met several Indian H1-B workers who have been abused by their employers.
Do we really need more talented people, or are we just looking for cheap labor? I think it is a mixture of both. The INS/DoL need to perhaps be a little more proactive in policing H1B abuse, and there needs to be some kind of whistleblower legislation. The Corporations may not like that, but it should be part of the deal when you hire H1-B workers.
Is imported talent better? In many cases I believe that it is. While there are many intelligent and well-rounded Americans I have have also met many who were so apparently undereducated that they left me wondering where they purchased their degree. To a great extent this is due to the priorities of the colleges; after all, this is the only nation on the planet where most Universities are more synonymous with sports teams and parties than with academic excellence.
What kind of country do we want to live in? Given a choice between a million uneducated Mexican illegal aliens (Dictionary Note: if you have not been through Immigration you cannot truthfully call yourself an immigrant!) or a hundred thousand Indian Engineers and Programmers, I would opt for the latter (they pay more taxes and burden the system less).
With all of its problems, this is still a country where people are literally dying to get in. We should continue to leverage that to pick the top talent.
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Recap
-Foriegners tend to not demand the same quality of life as your average american
-Foriegners thus accept lower salaries
-Foriegners now know how to code
-This causes the profession to be 'cheapened' and less respected
-Engineering is looked upon similarly to your auto mechanic
-Companies would rather hire a horde of cheap labor and throw together a product, and instead spend their money on a larger and more expensive sales and marketing team.
So the bottom line is, whereas I used to impress the hell out of people as a kid because I had the ability to understand things that they couldn't, I went to school with the idea that if I could do something really hard better than anyone else, that I'd make a lot of money doing it. Now you'd have to be a hard working fool to go after an engineering degree.
How many other people on Wall Street are making less than 200k? What does your secretary make?
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Re: Recap
That sounds like sour grapes to me.
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Re: Re: Recap
Am I sour about it? Yeah - I am. I like to believe that hard work pays off. As it turns out, I should have cruised through liberal arts and been pushing mortgages for the last few years. I'd be golfing right now instead of in my cubicle.
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A real problem for the film industry
been a problem for years, we work on quite short term contracts
1-2 years max usually and move from one country to another
depending on where work is. and the quota and disponibility of H1b visas has been a real struggle for the companies.
Working in Australia now, it struck me when the new E3 visa
(US working visa for Australians) came into action to see SO MANY US Companies running full hiring conferences here to be
able to get people over there...
I understand that raising the limit of H1B could be a problem
at some point but for some industry it is a real problem as well...
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Foreign stuff
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Not just about IT
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