It's Time For Tradable HOV Stickers
from the a-win-win-scenario dept
In recent months, the state of California has stopped issuing stickers to drivers of hybrid cars that allow them to drive in the HOV lanes on highways. Not surprisingly, perhaps, the stickers have now become a hot commodity on the black market. Not only are the stickers increasingly subject to theft, but used cars that carry the sticker are able to fetch far more on the used car market than ones without a sticker. There's a valuable lesson here for other states looking to implement such a system: HOV stickers should be tradable. Consider a potential Prius owner that rarely needs to drive on the freeway; a free HOV sticker wouldn't be much of an incentive for them to buy the car. This could be remedied if they were allowed to put the stickers up for sale on eBay, where it could be bought by anyone -- even an SUV owner. This way, the Prius owner still gets a reward for driving a low-emission vehicle, while the sticker goes to good use in fighting freeway congestion. Furthermore, the creation of a legitimate market for these stickers should help reduce any crime associated with them.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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First, I own a Prius, I live in San Jose, CA. and I didn't get the sticker because I don't need it; I work froma bout 5:30am to 2pm in Palo Alto, so I completely
avoid the traffic. In fact, I work those hours by choice so I don't have to
deal with traffic.
However, since the stickers were of a limited quantity, my office mate, however, wanted me to get the stickers just to keep another slow Prius driver out of the HOV lane.
I don't disagree with your statements about creating a market for the stickers, I disagree with the state's logic of giving the stickers to the Prius owners in the first place. Why? There are Volkswagon's which get 45-55mpg, and burn
the clean new diesel fuel. Why don't they get stickers too?
Furthermore, if you read Mr. Roadshow in the Merc News in San Jose,
you'll know that the carpool lanes are clogged in SoCal because of the number
of people who've bought Prius' just to get the sticker. While in NoCal, the carpool lanes are still relatively clear most of the time.
Finally, your suggestion does nothing to reduce congestion or pollution; a Hummer surely occupies much more space than the Prius, and it outputs a lot more noxious fumes. So, all you're doing is providing another incentive for affluent people to continue conspicuously consuming and polluting.
But, basically I question the reasoning behind the state giving out the stickers in the first place.
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Re:
It helps them get around more quickly in the Valley, esp. during HOV-restricted times. Apparently that makes it worth driving a crappy car* and spending $35k adding another car to their fleets.
Chris.
* I think it's a crappy car, but that's an opinion
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Re: Re:
And since most of them have also swapped the stock tires for something stickier and better at the speeds they drive, the cars have lost even more efficiency.
Chris.
(bad for to reply to your own post, I know)
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I'm ambivalent about the whole HOV thing to start with (a ridiculously small percentage of people using the HOV lane were actually incented to carpool; most are families or friends who would be driving together anyway). But as long as we've got it, I'm OK with using it to incent regular commuters to switch to more eco-friendly cars.
I am *not* OK with, say, someone buying a Prius and a Hummer and then putting the stickers on their Hummer (which would surely happen in the secondary market model). The idea is to encourage more commute miles to be reduced-emissions, not to convince people to buy eco-friendly cars and have them sit in a garage.
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Re:
However, the sticker should stay with the owner or their next qualifying hybrid at the owner's discretion. The idea that the stickers should follow the car all the way to the junk yard is silly.
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The best way to fight congestion and pollution is to give people incentives to drive less, use public transportation, and carpool. Selling the stickers only means the HOV lane will be congested soon too. Capitalism can't fix everything.
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Not only would such a system be fair, but it would pay for the roads which are currently subsidized by everyone whether they drive a lot, a little or none at all. Furthermore this would deincentivize commuting and promote public transportation. In fact, we can re-direct the money spent on roads to public transportation.
Does anyone have the per capita transportation-related oil consumption figures for New York compared other major US cities that don't enjoy the same level of public transportation availability (i.e., any other US city)?
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You're way off base on this issue.
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Re: Hans' toll roads
I still yearn for the concept though. I would prefer to see every freeway a micropayment toll road though, and make rfid tags a ubiquitous requirement for the registration of a car.
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Not right
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worst ideas ever
also worst article ever
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wha
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Clearly, the sticker program is not an effective approach. However, if that's the road a state is on, one answer might be a near opposite approach suggested in this post: tie each sticker to the car's registration. It could be a secondary offense, in which the police can't pull a car over specifically because of a suspected illegal sticker. But, if a stickered vehicle was pulled over for another offense, and the car is determined not to be tied to the sticker, an additional violation would be assessed and an additional penalty delivered.
And, while it clearly doesn't fit as neatly into a political soundbite, these types of incentives should be targeted exclusively at the end result, regardless of the approach of getting there. There is no point in rewarding the owner of a hybrid that is no more efficient than other cars/trucks on the road; and there is no reason not to reward the owner of a vehicle that uses some other means of achieving the same goal.
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Actually, hybrids of little good on the freeway --
Most hybrids don't perform nearly as well (relative to conventional cars) on the freeway as they do in the city. Hybrids are especially good (relative to conventional cars) in stop-and-go traffic. Therefore, we should actually have the gas cars in the HOV lanes and the hybrids in the stop-and-go lanes if our only interest were short-term emissions improvements. Of course, that shows that the real point of the stickers is just a cheap way to encourage people to buy hybrids.
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"The direct way to do it is to set up HOT lanes or variable-toll lanes, and then funnel the money collected from that program into subsidies for hybrids and alternative energy. The total savings should be greater, assuming administrative costs that are manageable. Those who value high-speed driving will pay a premium (and a large one at that) for it, which can be used to buy a LOT of hybrids for people doing stop-and-go driving."
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Re: Redundancy
> journalism I've ever seen. Sarcasm
> doesn't convey easily over the
> internet, but I hope to God that
> he is being completely sarcastic
> with the whole "selling the stickers"
> idea...
So you keep saying. This is what? You're third post telling us how much you don't like the thesis proposed by the article.
We get it. You don't have to keep saying the same thing over and over.
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HOV Stickers
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No...
Wow. You are really stupid aren't you?
Ok, I'll review the philosophy they used when they passed this bill, as well as the philosophy you SHOULD HAVE READ before writing this stupid post. They are trying to make people prefer to DRIVE a prius more (instead of another car). If the stickers were transferable, then when an SUV owner gets said sticker from the prius guy who doesn't need it, then people are still driving gas-eating cash just as much. The only change is that Prius SALES would increase, not their use. The whole point is to make people perfer to DRIVE a prius more (instead of an SUV). The way to fix all of this is KEEP GIVING OUT THE STUPID STICKERS TO PRIUS DRIVERS.
If you drive more, then you want the sticker more. If you drive more, you are making more of an impact. The people we WANT to be enticing with these stickers are the people who drive the most, because if an SUV driver who drives 100 miles every day switches to a prius, we are going to be saving a good 2 gallons of gas a day. It doesn't matter if someone who drives 10 miles a day gets a prius instead of an SUV, because they are only going to save 1/4 gallon of gas.
So, Joe, in conclusion, I propose that you tape your mouth shut and stop telling people your thoughts until you have had a good few years to fully think about what you are saying before jumping out and yelling it to the world.
And I totally agree with ^Anonymous Coward^... well, in a more homicidal way. Joe, if you are still reading, turn off your computer and never use it again.
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Re: No...
> Coward... well, in a more homicidal way.
So someone expresses an opinion you disagree with and that makes you want to kill him?
Perhaps you need to seek some professional help.
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Re: Re: No... (really late response)
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Hybrid performance
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Re: Hybrid performance
Makes for an interesting reading, esp. regarding hybrids.
Chris.
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Re: Hybrid performance
That a hilarious rewriting of the quote by Oliver Wendell Holmes:
"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
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to heck with hybrids, ride a motorcycle
A portion of the driving public is ignorant of the first two things, so you'll occationally get some ass honking at you a flipping you off for HOV use or lane splitting, even though it's perfectly legal.
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Carbon Credits
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HOV - what is it for again?
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Joe - WTF are you smoking?
It is with the utmost urgency that I ask you this most pertinent question.
WHO IS YOUR CRACK DEALER, I WANT SOME OF WHAT YOU'RE SMOKING!!!
It's obviously the good stuff...
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HOV is Lame
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Re: HOV is Lame
http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/ramp_mgmt_handbook/manual/images/figure10_17.jpg
Chris.
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Arizona HOV lane
There are stickers for alternate fuel vehicles, and massive fines for those who break the rules and it seems to work out just fine.
On a recent trip through California, all that I witnessed was this carpool lane being used by motorcycles to race down the road (as I notice was noted in response #21). Traffic was moving at an average of 40mph, and the lane was practically empty. Seems like a waste of road.
Now, as to the stickers, I see the bonus to Prius drivers and an attempt to encourage sales of the vehile which will lower prices of Hybrid cars in general which makes them more popular. I don't live in CA, but I can see a semblance of logic to this, and its a lot better than some convoluted tax scheme that will be exploited. But like Joe says, you bought the Prius, you got the sticker, but to hell with the HOV lane so why shouldn't you be able to recoup some of the extra money you spent on getting a more expensive (up front) vehicle?
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Hybrid performance
Maybe your friends are all assholes, but I drive a hybrid and know a good many other hybrid drivers who take great pleasure in keeping the mileage high.
What, you drive a Hummer, and you're looking to feel better?
Additionally, as I posted before, I am very conscious of not making unnecessary trips and I've been bringing my own bags to the grocery store for eons.
Too many people treat the planet like their own personal trash can. Like breathing? I do. The air in California can be pretty terrible. I don't like to contribute to that.
PS Had I taken a few more years to buy a new car, I would have done what my friend Darcy did -- she got a brand new bug that runs on used vegetable oil.
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Why so emotional?
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Why stop there?
The original goal was to reduce traffic congestion, not emissions. Funny how people in power like to dole out favors to get the behavior that they think is 'right'.
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Managed Lanes?
As bad as that sounds, it sounds much better than these stickers...
They should end the sticker program, not just stop issuing new ones. The existing stickers should be voided and if they so choose issue newer stickers with stricter requirements.
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Who Allowed EVs in the HOV? Steven Kirsch
http://www.kirschfoundation.com/done/envpol_arc.html#Anchor-ZE-38137
Think what you may of Steve K (and I've heard good and bad), but the guy put HIS OWN money where his mouth was, and got a bunch of earth-friendly laws passed. He was a huge fan of the electric car, and as I recall, there was no executive parking at Infoseek, but there was an "electric car only" parking spot at the very front, with a charging stand. It was an incentive for people to buy electric cars. And who was the only one who parked there? Steve K.
At this point in time, the all-electric cal has been killed by GM (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/) and there are more and more hybrids appearing on the road. Though early on, this incentive to get people to buy EVs made sense, but now it simply threatens to choke off the original intent of HOV lanes, reducing congestion by rewarding carpooling. Carpooling is only tangentially about the environment, but is a simple equation: more people in one car = fewer cars = less traffic.
Also, environmentalists are now lamenting the "abuse" of hybrid technology, in that the technology is able to provide two benefits in a zero sum trade-off: better economy or better performance. An increasing number of vehicles are using hybrid for the latter, not the former. So these cars offer a "feel good" vibe, sans enviro benefits. Surely we don't want these cars rewarded with HOV lane access.
In general, I agree with the comments. Mostly that the HOV access for Hybrids was intended to provide an incentive for hybrid DRIVING not hybrid OWNING. Trading stickers would reward the purchase.
But I also agree with many who suggest that the further you drive each day, the more you are part of the problem. People who choose to live 60 miles from their work put a much bigger cost on the rest of us than people who work where they live -- no matter what they drive/ride to get there. Don't feel to righteous if you drive a Prius 120 miles round trip every day.
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Manners
There are multiple writers at Techdirt with various opinions. Did you expect to agree with every post? Well, don't.
If you don't like Joe's post, for goodness sakes, just say so and express why. Techdirt's forum is wide open and doesn't erase criticisms.
But you don't need to make personal attacks. This type of violent reaction makes your arguments less credible, and brings your character in question. Is that the impact you were trying to have?
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Re: Manners
There should be some sort of quality control, to prevent garbage like this article from going live. When it does go live, it reflects poorly on the whole site.
#1 what does this article have to do with tech?
#2 read the above comments on why this article is wrong in so many ways.
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Two comments:
Joe may have posted a silly article, but at least it was well reasoned.
- Onto the substance... Joe's post brings up a familiar issue i.e. paying more to access a less encumbered route to your destination.
I find it ironic that this site advocates creating a market mechanism to give preferential access to one limited transit method (roads), but yet is so fundamentally opposed to doing the same for another transit method - the internet, ala Net Neutrality...
Really, these two ideas are not that different when you think about it... an inconsistency here Joe?
Oh, and before we stray back into the same territory that my first comment related to, I am not anti-net neutrality, nor do I really care about hybrid car lanes. Happily, the law makers in my part of the world have not been so idiotic.
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Re: Two comments:
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Stupid Idea
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commuters
Someone mentioned that some "regular" cars have the same mpg as a hybrid. Well, what is their emissions? Because that is the point of the sticker, rewarding car owners with low emissions.
I think a big problem with the HOV lanes and overall freeway congestion is the fact that people CHOOSE to live a million miles away from their jobs in order to live in a "bigger" house. This is VERY COMMON here in Southern California (where I live now) and in Northern California (where we just moved from) Maybe if people cared about the environment more than having some big house 60 miles from their job than the roads wouldn't be packed like sardines. Don't you want your children and their children, etc to have clean air and a healthy environment? Every little bit counts.
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stickers
clean air is suptid!!
everyone is stupid!!!
stupid idiots!!! suptid!! duh!
your all supitd!
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Stickers for my new 2008 Prius..
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