Well, Look At That: Offshoring Didn't Destroy The Tech Industry
from the shocking dept
Back during the recession years, whenever we'd write about how offshoring technology jobs wasn't the big problem people made it out to be, we'd get tons of angry comments. However, the points many of us were making were pretty straightforward. First, offshoring wasn't as cheap as people were making it out to be. The monetary costs would continue to increase as demand increased (which is exactly what happened), but more importantly, the non-monetary costs were a lot higher than people expected. Managing a team halfway around the world isn't easy, and there are lots of problems with it for certain types of projects. In fact, that's exactly what many companies discovered. At the same time, there are clearly cases where offshoring makes sense. It's classic comparative advantage economics at work, where benefits tend to accrue to both sides of the equation. People forget this and think that it's a zero sum game and that a job that goes to India is somehow "lost" forever. However, the value from well done offshoring actually opens up new opportunities and so it should come as no surprise that unemployment for techies is the lowest its been in years. This fits with other recent stories about tech wages at new highs and H1-B visas being exhausted in a single day. The simple fact is that the economy is not a zero sum game. Allowing the economy to grow by letting jobs go where they're most efficient will increase the overall pie and open up plenty of new job opportunities in other places -- which appears to be exactly what's happened. As if to underscore this, now that tech jobs are scarce in the US, those who were complaining about "lost" jobs a few years ago must think that there's less demand in India for skilled tech workers -- but the opposite is true. Tech companies there are also having trouble hiring. In other words, the sector just keeps growing, and having jobs move around doesn't mean that any jobs are permanently "lost." At some point, we'll go through this cycle again, but hopefully next time around people will recognize it for what it is, rather than passing around the blame and pushing Congress to pass protectionist laws that actually shrink the economic opportunity.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
I work in this field...
Most people don't understand what developers do, so they try to think of them as a commodity instead of a resource.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Offshoring for the World Economy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
this article isn't very coherent
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Mike is clueless as usual
You are either completely clueless or you are a paid stooge for those large tech companies...
Just give it up, dude...
it's sickening already
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Mike is clueless as usual
Just give it up, dude...
it's sickening already"
Idiotic as usual angry dude. You know, maybe if you actually put forth information to support your arguments you wouldn't look so pathetic... that is assuming you have a point other then the fact that you disagree with Mike.
I happen to work in the tech industry as a software developer and have for many years. I have never had a hard time finding work. Now, I don't think off shore tech support is a good idea, in fact I know of several large companies that are pulling their tech support back to the US slowly, but at the same time I don't see it hurting the work force. Many of the jobs that are going over seas are jobs that are really hard to keep filled over here.
I know the ISP's near where I live have a very hard time getting good tech support personnel. Most of the problem is that the positions are viewed as an entry level position or part time position, so the employees seeking the positions are usually college students or people looking to pick up a few extra hours. These cause all kinds of problems from delinquency to employees walking off the job for a better paying position. Knowing this, I can see why companies would want to place their tech support somewhere that the employees actually want to work for them and continue to do so for a relatively stable amount of time. Of course I disagree with the idea that this is a good business decision due to the fact that I have heard many complaints about not being able to understand the person on the phone and the fact that they really can't do anything to help.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I've been looking for a front-end production job for about 5 months now. The only thing out there is two-week freelance gigs. I've been in web production for 7 years. Why can't I find a job with all of these great things going on?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Well, Look At That: Once again the whole story is
Could it be that many "techies" switched careers back in the recession years because they could no longer make it? Not because of lack of talent mind you, because they couldn't find a job. Also there are less graduates coming out with CS degrees these days because 4 years ago when they started college they were told they would not be able to find a job. So again, we will be hiring more H1-Bs and outsourcing to fill the demand and the cycle will continue. Blah... Blah... Blah.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Well, Look At That: Once again the whole story
Look at CS graduation rates over the past years before talking out of your ass.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Well, Look At That: Once again the whole s
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Once I apply to all of the jobs that I'm qualified for and work on advancing my skillset, there is a little time in the cracks to read about the industry and to eat and sleep.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
speaking of economics
also, as more work (and money) goes out of the US, the value of the dollar will continue to go down.
it's the old one-two punch... the more you offshore, the more the offshore expects to earn, and sooner or later the value of the dollar drops and it takes more greenbacks to pay wokers the amount you agreed to pay.
so offshore away... once the dollar loses enough value everyone will be outsourcing to the US for cheap labor and the whole cycle will repeat.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
You don't do research do you?
1.) Zero sum game (or gain) - the benefit in this case would be to the world economy not the tech industry, the united states, or the individual. It is zero-sum if you lose, someone else benefits, and you get nothing. Consider how much better off (or not) those people that manufactured television sets here in the US are now. I am sure these 50 year old men were excited at the opportunity to learn a new trade and must have been paid well. There is only one manufacturer of TVs in the US left, they don't employ everyone that lost their job.
2.) Shortages in the Industry - There are only perceived shortages in the industry. Anyone in the industry knows that the shortages are artificial based on description. If I need someone with AJAX experience but I don't need 1 of the hundreds of available C++ programmers I say there is a shortage of programmers. Most IT jobs are extremely specific in description and there shortages are fake. It turns out that (look it up) many people in the early 2000's that were formally in IT gave up looking for programming jobs and took up functional positions. Here is a test. Create a fake resume with 25 years of COBOL experience and try to find a job outside of COBOL, even include training in the skill set you would like to pursue. You won't get hired. Programmers experience is often only respected in specific skills. It is better to just lie, the outsourcers do it so to stay competitive you should do what the industry wants apparently.
3.) letting jobs go where they are most efficient - There is a difference between efficiency and cheap. It is less efficient to manage a team across the world but it is cheap. Quality goes down when code is outsourced as well. That is not a sign of efficiency. Projects take longer, not efficient.
Don't site other non referenced articles as research. Look for real numbers, real research. That is, unless you have an agenda. Or are a liar.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: You don't do research do you?
If you don't, you will not be in demand. People who think that you can go 5 or 10 years doing the exact same thing with the exact same tools are the ones that get let go first and have the hardest time finding new work.
Tony Perkins has a great graph about the cost of building a software company (you can find it in this presentation) and much of that applies to software tools as well. It's very possible for software developers to acquire new skills on their own, much more so than 10 years ago.
So the key to staying relevant and being in demand (and there is a lot of demand, particularly in some markets), is not so much related to whether or not your skills are being outsource, but if you keep up with the industry in general. Of course, geographic location helps as well.
BTW, if you are going to call someone a liar for not having any numbers in their bit, it would be good to reference numbers yourself.... I don't see any "real research" in your post.
Chris.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: You don't do research do you?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: You don't do research do you?
Same old shit, always defending Mike.
Took a second to look up a resume of Chris Maresca:
Take a look: http://www.chrismaresca.com/resume2.html
Just what I was thinking, a bunch of BS.
Education: University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Graduate Studies (masters) 1991 - 92
International Environmental Policy
University of Maine
Orono, Maine USA
Bachelor of Arts, 1991
International Relations/History
All Public Relations BS
No wonder you always support Mike - he is also full of it.
Have you ever written a line of code in Java or C++, Chris ? I guess not...
Maybe you should try to find a full-time software developmnt position in the US or just shut up
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: You don't do research do you?
To be fair, some have had to expand their skill set and we have found through experience that this is best done while on the current job. Those that have not had the foresight to learn additional programming languages when presented the opportunity and occasionally simply making the opportunity at work do have a little more difficulty in finding positions outside of their listable experience.
There is a bit of Catch-22 in that employers do want experience in the particular area and a prospective developer cannot get a job in order to gain that experience. We have found, however, that a little bit of perseverance always finds an employer desperate enough to take an experienced developer with no prior job experience in an area as long as the developer has studied the language/reports system/db on their own.
I am curious as to what part of the U.S. angry dude is located in where he has had no luck. I have a pretty extensive network of friends and colleagues in the industry and may be able to point you in the right direction.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: You don't do research do you?
Why don't you post your resume so we can compare YOUR career? I'm not hiding behind some anonymous name, unlike you.
And, BTW, one of the things I am most proud of is that I DON'T have a degree in CS, thus proving my point about continuous learning (aka, eating my own dogfood).
Chris.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: You don't do research do you?
your resume is a bunch of BS
- Blah-blah-blah and nothing specific
Any IT recruter will tell you so
Just try to get a decent full-time IT job with your resume, but no personal connections...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You don't do research do you?
IT recruiters are in the market to place individuals, but also make money for select markets. If a university pays them enough, of course they are going to tell you to waste thousands of dollars on a CS degree.
You honestly think a company would deny Chris a job, even though he has programmings skills, knowledge in many areas, and has won awards simply because he does not has a CS degree?
You obviously have no idea how the world work and I pity you for it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: You don't do research do you?
It's true that some of the gain can (and will) occur outside the industry, but plenty tends to accrue inside the industry -- and in fact that seems to be what's happening now.
2.) Shortages in the Industry - There are only perceived shortages in the industry. Anyone in the industry knows that the shortages are artificial based on description.
First you accuse me of not actually reading what's going on, but they you focus on job shortages -- when that's not what the article is about. It's about *unemployment rate* being the lowest it's been. So, that's quite different and suggests that even if there the scarcity is based on job description there are very few out of work engineers.
Create a fake resume with 25 years of COBOL experience and try to find a job outside of COBOL, even include training in the skill set you would like to pursue. You won't get hired. Programmers experience is often only respected in specific skills.
So what? If you tell me that you're skill set is in building horse-drawn carriages and then whine that no automobile company will hire you, why is that my problem? Why didn't you keep up on the skill set you needed to get a job? Why should we be forced to hire someone who doesn't have the skillsets the industry needs? Everyone in the tech industry should know that it's a rapidly changing industry -- and if you fail to update your skillset that's not the industry's problem, it's yours.
3.) letting jobs go where they are most efficient - There is a difference between efficiency and cheap. It is less efficient to manage a team across the world but it is cheap. Quality goes down when code is outsourced as well. That is not a sign of efficiency. Projects take longer, not efficient.
Did you even read my post? I said exactly that. That's why many companies have scaled back poorly thought out offshoring projects. However, there are cases where it makes sense to do that where the efficiency does work out.
That is, unless you have an agenda. Or are a liar.
Thanks for the constructive criticism -- though it's amusing you say that when you clearly did not read the post or the linked articles.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Looking for a good job
I am not really interested in waiting for NAFTA to work. I don't have time to wait for workers in Mexico or India to come up to the standard of living or pay scale that I need to survive in the USA.
The first job I had out of college was working for an IT consulting firm that could only afford to pay me $9/hr and ended up laying me off after 6mo from lack of enough work.
How is it that you get to 2-4 or 3-5 yrs of experience when you can't get the entry level jobs?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Looking for a good job
Also, in my own niche (open source), there is a lot of demand, even for entry level people. Even at the level of people who have participated in open source communities and are technically savvy (but are not necessarily experts in a particular piece of open source), there is a lot of demand as these are skills that are required to do things like community outreach and management.
Although it might be a bit unpleasant to think of yourself as a 'service', I think it's important to take this frame of mind. You are single individual 'company' offering a service. And, much like an actual company, doing your market research to understand what skills are in demand in which markets, and tailoring your 'services' to that demand, is what's going to lead to good job opportunities. My point (and I don't mean to sound harsh or anything) is that you can't sell your 'services' to a market that does not want or need them, so you either have to find a new market (eg. move) or offer new services (learn a new skill, switch careers).
Another important thing is to network. I know it sounds trite and a waste of time, but, over time (meaning a couple of years), it can really pay dividends. A lot of jobs are never advertised, so the only way you'll ever hear about them is through your network.
Chris.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Looking for a good job
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Looking for a good job
I feel your frustration and pain. About twelve years ago, I found myself in more or less the same situation in my job in India. While I *did* have a job and was employed, the pay was just enough for me to squeak by every month. A time came when I decided that I had to move somewhere where I would find employment that was not only in line with my background, skill sets and experience, but one that would be well paying to boot. To make a long story short, I moved to the United States in May, 1994, and have been happily employed here since.
The point of the rather long story above is: if your situation and current commitments permit, have you considered moving (at least temporarily) to places where the entry level jobs *are*? I am thinking of places like Ireland and India.
I understand that our individual situations are unique as we are ourselves, and that something that worked fro me might not necessarily work (or work as well) for someone else.
Just suggesting, that is all.
Wish you all the best.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Looking for a good job
They say outsourcing increase jobs here (in the U.S.) for higher skilled works, but if you can't get the low skilled jobs, you can't work your way to the top.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Looking for a good job
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
That is exactly the question I've been asking ever since I got my college degree. Almost nobody gives a guy a fighting chance anymore. This is why more and more college students are being forced to take unpaid internships, because fewer and fewer people are willing to pay for no experience. The first job I got out of college didn't work out, and I spent six months without a job, just barely surviving on freelance computer work (spyware cleanup, building PCs, etc.) and some really tiny unemployment payments. I have now been in my current job for two years and am doing fairly well, although I have still not been able to restablish any level of financial savings that got drained during my unemployment. It is getting harder and harder to find good jobs without requiring high level degrees and many years of experience.
I say that anyone who says that offshore outsourcing hasn't stolen lots and lots of US tech jobs is sorely misinformed and just plain ignorant. Or maybe they just don't want to hear the truth and choose to ignore it. To the software developer above: so you've had good luck finding jobs, great for you. I'm willing to be software development work isn't quite so hard to come by. LAN administrator and PC support tech positions are, which is my niche. People applying for those jobs tend to be a dime a dozen, and the competition is always fierce, especially if, once again, you are trying to get started with your career and lack the experience.
Has offshoring ruined the tech industry? Of course not. This world lives and breathes technology, so the industry will always exist, somewhere. However, that "somewhere" is quickly moving from the US to India, China, Hong Kong, Korea, Malaysia, Taiwan, Japan, and just about any other country you ever see a "Made in xxx" label on. I dare anybody to find even one PC-related component that has a "Made in USA" label on it. Trust me, you will be looking forever, because it does not exist. Granted, that's a bit off subject, but it still goes with the theme in that everything that's worth buying is slowly and methodically being removed from the US workforce, and that includes services as well as goods.
All I can hope for at this point is to stay with the company I'm employed by now long enough to get a number of years of experience so that I have a fighting chance to maybe find a better paying job someday. Whether you want to believe it or not, it's a well known fact that offshoring has had a detrimental effect on our society as a whole, and I don't think things are going to get better anytime soon. I for one am sick and tired of trying to talk to guys in India, who I can barely understand, for tech support and other things.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
What did you do while you were going to school? Nothing? When I was in college, I got a job for campus IT and worked there for 2 years. Before then, I had a job as a Computer Tech at an electronics store for another year. AND I also had experience as a freelance computer person. I did not even finish college, but still was able to get a salary paid position with the amount of experience I had. I do the same thing you do, Network and Systems Administration.
Why are people complaining about not having experience when straight out of college? You obviously are not looking hard enough. Everyone I knew in college had a job either programming or in IT, while attending school full-time. Most universities need IT staff and developers, they pay cheap, but it is money after all. Plus, it is good experience.
You should have gotten a job in the field while still in college to gain experience. That is why people like me have an advantage over people like you.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Walk a mile in my shoes before you start spouting off about what people did when they went to school and how much of a slacker they are now because they can't find a job. You seem to be one of those people who thinks that if someone doesn't have a job, they aren't looking. Get a life. Not everyone lives where you live, has the same opportunities or even the same job market. Sure, I could move 2000 miles away from the family, support network and everything else that means anything for a job somewhere else, but I would rather live in the basement and work at mcdonalds than give up the things that are important to me in life... think about it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
Good point, but then you can not complain that outsourcing is taking away tech jobs when you are unwilling to move to the places that do have tech jobs available. It has nothing to do with outsourcing and everything to do with your own personal preferences.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
This is all part of my point. I'm not unwilling to move, but I don't want to have to move out of the state. I would like to be reasonably close (less than 200mi) to my aging grand parents and the rest of my family. Do you think that it is unreasonable to expect to be able to get an IT job somewhere in my whole state?
So, I decided to build my own experience by starting a consulting company. I have a few clients and for right now it adds some additional income. But, I'm not getting the pay or benefits as a real job.
This isn't about a pity party. It's about realistic examples of the current IT industry. People can realize that they had some good luck and/or had some good contacts - or they can think that everyone else is lazy and that the industry is thriving when many of our jobs are going over seas.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'm not unwilling to move, but I don't want to have to move out of the state. I would like to be reasonably close (less than 200mi) to my aging grand parents and the rest of my family.
And then:
Do you think that it is unreasonable to expect to be able to get an IT job somewhere in my whole state?
You specifically say you want to find a job within 200 miles of where you currently live which, depending on your state, is an unreasonable expectation. Nurses, teachers, and other careers like that can not even find a job within 200 miles of where they currently are.
Now as far as their not being a job in the whole state, again depends on the state but I find that hard to believe. Some corporations do not bother posting ads in the paper or online, you need to go to their websites and look up job positions.
So, I decided to build my own experience by starting a consulting company.
That's wonderful. Plus it's a good idea for anyone who does not think they have enough experience.
People can realize that they had some good luck and/or had some good contacts - or they can think that everyone else is lazy and that the industry is thriving when many of our jobs are going over seas
The majority of jobs going over seas are Tier I Tech Support positions, which companies had to look elsewhere since they had a hard time filling those positions in the US. And as far as Systems, Network, and LAN administration goes, well those jobs are safely secure in the US. Every medium to large sized company needs a hardware guy/gal, not just technology companies.
As far as programming goes, I see many Tier II and Tier III Support positions open with no one either willing to fill them or not even applying because they do not think they have a shot.
There are many opportunities out there in the tech world, I searched Monster for Computer Services, Computer hardware, and computer software jobs and my search had over 8,000 jobs posted.
Plus, if you really want a job, drop your resume off to any of the major companies around your area. If you really have good skills and special talents, then they would create a job for you. Our company does it all the time.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Beside, lots of smaller companies do not let their source code leave the offices because they are afraid someone will steal it, so the only way to work is to go into the office. Also, communication and development with your fellow co-workers can save time and money rather than having to call or e-mail each person you need to speak with.
If your argument is "Someone should give me a job because I have experience, but I want to stay where I am" then that is pretty lame and proves you do not want to be a team player for that company. The person who will physically show up at the office will win the job over someone who has experience, but does not want to move (does not show very good initiative).
People in India do not work from home and that was not even the topic of discussion, now was it?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I drive 22 miles to work every day, so shut you pie hole when you don't know what you are talking about. I also moved 774 miles to take my current job, so again shut your pie hole.
Whether the people in India work from home or not is irrelevant, the point is 90% of the people I work with are not geographically near me, therefore geography is irrelevant.
The idea that you have to work from the office so people don't steal your source code is stupid and if you actually read techdirt regularly, not going to protect you.
Last I checked, we have video conferencing, teleconferencing and Instant message collaboration...I don't call each person on a project, I am on 3 to 20 way calls daily, yet another of your points that is irrelevant.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well then you ignorant fool, what do you have to complain about? The whole flow of the comment discussion was the fact that tech people are having trouble finding jobs. Since you have a job, your comment is completely stupid and irrelevant.
My point was there are jobs available as long as you are willing to relocate. You may video conference, teleconference, etc., but you still DRIVE 22 miles to works and relocated 774 miles away which proves my point. The people who are whining they should be able to find a tech job and NOT have to move from where they are have unrealistic expectations.
The idea that you have to work from the office so people don't steal your source code is stupid and if you actually read techdirt regularly, not going to protect you.
Assuming you can't trust your employees, true. But if setup on an internal info structure completely separated from the outside internet access and not allowing just any employee to access code, you can have quite a handle on this. Many companies has found ways to keep their data secure, only a few companies are too dumb to think about tight security regulations.
Last I checked, we have video conferencing, teleconferencing and Instant message collaboration...I don't call each person on a project, I am on 3 to 20 way calls daily, yet another of your points that is irrelevant.
Well yay for you. Every company is different. Bigger companies can afford to setup things like that, but smaller companies would prefer to have their employees onsite. The point being though that you go to an office to do your work rather than sit around at home. Go to your boss and ask if you can setup a teleconferencing unit at your house and work from home. I bet he says no.
Having the ability to program from home if you physically can't make it to work is one thing. It is completely different to say "I am smart and should be able to work at home if I don't want to move so give me the job over someone in India" is laziness.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
I dare anybody to find even one PC-related component that has a "Made in USA" label on it.
You mean other than the three most expensive things in there - the GPU, CPU and the OS (if running WinXX)? ;-)
While most of the hardware many not be manufactured in the US anymore, the IP certainly is, and that's what makes the hardware valuable (otherwise it's just a bunch of sand...).
Chris.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
"That is exactly the question I've been asking ever since I got my college degree."
I'm willing to bet that your college degree is the thing holding you back. Wait before you spew hatred my direction.
No one I know in the IT industry will hire anyone who has gone to college in the field because by the time you're done with college, most of the things you've learned have become obsolete. By the time someone has time to write a book on a concept in computers, get it published, added to a college curriculum, professors have time to actually teach it to students and they graduate, that concept has been revised and upgraded twice and the knowledge learned on the subject in college is pointless.
A friend spent some 5 years in college getting his CS degree; in that time he learned 1/10th of what I had done with self-study. He has no idea how to program any current language and he has no experience. I have most current languages AND 5 years experience using them in the same period(I actually can program in 150+ languages and have 25+ years experience but I digress). He works doing tech support for an ISP owned by a mutual friend. This mutual friend is one of those people I referred to since he refuses to let the college grad do anything other than tech support because that's all he knows how to do. I'll just modestly say that I don't have that problem.
I DID go to college but dropped out when I was told that they had no plans to teach the, then, new 'C' language and realized that they only had plans to teach us spreadsheets, word processors, and the most advanced language they'd teach us was Pascal. It might have been different if I'd have attended MIT instead but I could barely afford the $3800/semester(read that again, that was 20 years ago so you know it wasn't cheap and at the time they were considered a "decent" technical college) much less what MIT was asking.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Skills
Also, their is pride among developers who feel they are too good for certain jobs that really require technical expertise. For example, we've been trying to fill a position for a product assurance engineer for months now. They would be responsible for taking our product, testing it out with all the different databases, operating systems, etc. and then writing code to fix any bugs. All of our applicants either have the wrong experience (JAVA instead of .NET for example) or want to be an actual developer, the will specifically say that the job is beneath them.
Also, another factor is developers expect to get jobs in their home state or wherever they want to live. There are plenty of great tech jobs around the country as long as you are dedicated enough in the field to relocate.
All of you developers saying there are no jobs out there obviously are not making an effort to find them. They do exist around the country.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Skills
That is a good point. I started looking elsewhere for jobs a few months ago, hope you are right.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Skills
They are just starting to boom in the technology field and are really desperate for tech industry employees. Take a look at the big cable company here:
http://www.bresnan.com/careers/openings.asp
And no, I do not work for them. I just know my state is getting desperate to locate good tech people.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
1992
I'll state again, like I do every time an article like this gets posted, the tech industry isn't destroyed, but it's a really really bad idea to actually BE a tech guy now. It's very HARD work, and it pays OK, but isn't keeping up with pace. I'm at a time in my life where i'm seeing a lot of my friends do things that i can't do now because i don't have that kind of monetary firepower. These guys are no rocket scientists mind you, but they're joining country clubs and eating at steakhouses while i'm working late sifting through 1s and 0s. Who's the smart one? I dunno anymore.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Another piece of advise...
If you have the skills, expertise is negotiable. Give it a shot on your next interview, you may be surprised.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Greasing the wheels
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Another piece of advice
Its more important that you can speak to what you have done than who you have done it for.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
And always, always, wear clean underwear for your job interviews...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
You gotta lie
I'm a 9th grade drop out with a GED who played with the Internet a lot developing web sites. No college or certifications to speak of. But if you saw my resume you'd be impressed. I'm not condoning lying and I don't like to, but I felt I was forced to after about 2 years of job hunting. Once I switched my story about my experience, bam, landed a good one.
I justify my actions because I really do know what I'm doing. I really am good at what I do and I know I deserve the job and pay in exchange for my skills and contribution. I studied hard and really did earn experience, just not "on the job" experience. Hell, I even created a semi-successful online business that I also used as a reference. Hows that for a go-getter. Still running it and making extra cash on the side too.
The jobs are out there, you just got to get creative and know what your doing when you get there. I was interviewing at a rate of 2 to 3 a week. Now that I've got this under my belt, the next one will be even easier and hopefully more pay. I keep up with the latest stuff and now have certifications to prove it. Back then I just needed a foot in the door, even if I had to jam it in there and lie about it. Now my resume is a little more semi-honest. Got to have that college degree in there or they won't even read it.
Whats funny is that of a team of about 30 developers here, I am the most innovative developer. They are all old guys who all have college degrees but I swear they're dumb as nails and not at all into programming. Still doing linear crap instead of OOP. I've never heard a casual conversation from them about technology, just sports and old people stuff. Yes, I'm worth every bit what they're paying me and more. It's good to be me. My own business to fall back on and experience in the latest and hottest demanding technologies. According to career info I'm worth no less than 85k.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
So let's kill all patents then...
Your logic is flawless
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Thanks for playing.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Poor you.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Poor you.
We had guys answering 30 out of 30 questions right, but couldn't use the program to save their lives. How can it be on your resume that you have 5 years of experience with a product and not know how to use it?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
it's called contracting
there are a hundred "consulting" firms (RHI, manpower professional, aerotek, kforce, etc.) that offer short term projects to help you get your foot in the door. sure, you are pretty much working for cash, and the projects might be pretty short term, but if you need to get paid to work, you have to do the work that's paying.
except for that rough spot after the dot com bust in 2002 i have been steadily employed either fulltime or with contract work for 10 years. i dropped out of college 7 years ago because school cut into my ability to work overtime.
i'm now back in school so expand from IT into web media because i have taught myself everything i can.
and BTW there are no entry level programming jobs becuase there are no entry level software developers.
you don't graduate from college and walk into development.
you get into the software industry by testing. you unemployed CS majors should take those degrees and apply for software QA positions. yes you can test while you're in college.
the work will be easier to get thanks you your mad CS skillz and it will make you a *much* better dev.
if the QA managers want experience, volunteer with an open source project and test for them. log good bugs and take copies of your bug reports to your interviews.
you show a QA manager a bug that you logged that lead to a point release and he'll hire you on the spot.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Your statement above, while technically true, is also misleading (the cited Newsweek article is even worse, fwiw.)
The math that Newsweek didn't bother to do is here, if you're interested --> http://tinyurl.com/37d9cx
Best Regards,
Paul
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
job 4 me..
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: A struggling IT professional
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Job Searching
The job listings, at the company I work for, is about 10-15 strong for IT, those usually only stay listed for about 2-3 weeks, and are quickly replaced by someone looking to hire someone else as well.
While I can't say I read all 61 prior comments, most seem to be labeling "outsourcing" in a similar fashion as "tv and video game violence." You're ignoring countless other possibilities for why you don't get the jobs...going down as far as "you just suck at interviewing". Face it...your skill set doesn't mean much if you piss off the interviewer. Cause, if they don't think they can stand to work with you, they aren't going to hire you.
For some farfetching...
Maybe you're one of the few idiots who still aims for the "dark dungeon" room in the back corner of the company.
Or, you're just too damn greedy and think $120,000/year is too cheap for recent graduates.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Job Searching (cont.)
See...this is optimism and confidence in the future of my career:
The job listings, at the company I work for, is about 10-15 strong for IT, those usually only stay listed for about 2-3 weeks, and are quickly replaced by someone looking to hire someone else as well.
People are constantly getting hired and more openings follow.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]