The Underground iPhone Users Of Vermont Trying To Hide From AT&T
from the how-dare-these-people-want-to-give-us-money dept
It's no secret that Apple's new iPhone is quite popular across the nation, with competitors everywhere trying to figure out how to respond. There certainly have been some complaints about some of the limitations imposed by the iPhone, but people everywhere are trying to find workarounds. Tech.Blorge alerts us to the fact that a bunch of iPhone users in Vermont have had to go virtually underground to get and use iPhones. The problem, apparently, is that since AT&T has an exclusive deal to offer the iPhone, they don't want people using it primarily on roaming networks. Right now, you cannot get AT&T wireless service in Vermont -- and AT&T's contract threatens to cut off anyone who buys or uses an iPhone there. Of course, that's not going to stop some people, who are ordering iPhones from elsewhere and even setting up P.O. Boxes out of state where the 300 page iPhone bills can be sent. They know that they're risking being cut off but they just can't help it. For their part, AT&T insists that they will cut off anyone they find who lives in an area not served by AT&T wireless (which is actually a fairly large area), or anyone who uses more than 40% of their iPhone time on roaming networks. This, of course, is a bit ridiculous. These people want to pay money. They're happy customers or both Apple and AT&T -- and the company wants to cut them off. If expense is the problem, they should just charge them more for roaming, but cutting them off completely in the name of an exclusivity contract doesn't make any sense. It makes the iPhone and wireless service from AT&T less valuable, which is exactly the opposite of what the exclusivity clause was supposed to do.
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Underground iPhone Users Of Vermont
Maychic
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bumbling oaf
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I knew this would happen...
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Re: I knew this would happen...
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Seems like a good time
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Re: Seems like a good time
http://www.whoneedsaniphone.com/
It's still technically in alpha state but even for that it works extremely well. I've been a member of the community and using it since the first alpha release. We just voted on a name for it. Looks like the new name will be "FreeStyl" (as in stylus free interface). I expect a possible beta release soon too. The nice thing about it is that it should work on ANY Windows Mobile 5 or 6 device.
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You've missed the point.
Perhaps a better solution would be to offer a roaming plan, and let these users pay your typical $.45/min rate or so that roaming minutes typically cost. Either way, it's not at all about keeping the iPhone exclusive.
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Re: You've missed the point.
We dropped many customers for abnormal usage patterns.
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Re: You've missed the point.
so you punish the 95% of ATT customers who RARELY roam with a $.45/min rate because 5% of them want to use ATT services in an area that ATT does not yet provide their own towers to service to? interesting indeed.
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Re: Re: You've missed the point.
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Re: Re: You've missed the point.
If someone uses 50% or more of their minutes on the AT&T network in a given month, then they get to stay on the regular plan.
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Re: You've missed the point.
Which is why I said: "If expense is the problem, they should just charge them more for roaming,"
Not sure how I issed the point, since that's exactly what I said. However, since AT&T isn't doing this, it seems like it really is about exclusivity.
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Re: You've missed the point.
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Unlock phones
If unlocking the phone is now legal, then the cell phone network can no longer dictate how, and where the phone will be used. If they can't dictate that usage then how can they "disconnect" someone for doing something they have no control over?
Or is my logic broken here?
Shane
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Re: Unlock phones
It is quite different from unlocking the phone. If you unlock the phone and sign up for service with T-Mobile instead of AT&T, then you're paying T-Mobile, and using T-Mobile's network. This usage doesn't cost T-mobile much, so they are making money off of having your account. The phone doesn't matter.
If you sign up for AT&T service, but use only T-Mobile's network, AT&T has to pay relatively high rates for every minute you use on T-Mobile's network. So, anyone who's doing this is COSTING AT&T money, instead of making them money.
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Re: Re: Unlock phones
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Re: Re: Re: Unlock phones
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Unlock phones
-M
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Re: Re: Re: Unlock phones
VoiceStream - GSM - became T-Mobile
WesternWireless - CDMA - became part of Alltel
I wish I was the guy running WesternWireless, he's gotta made a ton off the sales.
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Re: Unlock phones
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Happens in WV as well.
All 3 of them have had there service cut off from roaming too much.
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ker pow
yay vermont
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Three Cheers for Vermont!
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Re: EDGE/3G
3G is a generic term used for the collective voice and data networks.
So you don't actually make phone calls on the EDGE or UMTS network...only the data uses those.
The only thing generally associated with the voice side of wireless that's actually the data side for an iPhone, is the Visual Voicemail
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Re: Re: EDGE/3G
UMTS is a new standard that replaces GSM, Universal Mobile Telecommunications System. It uses W-CDMA as the underlying protocol and supports voice and data.
So what the user should have said is that the 3G network sucks for voice and that he uses the 2G/GSM network, but we all got the right idea. For the record I prefer voice calls on the UMTS network with my 8525. Of course something is wrong with the phone and I can faintly hear TDMA interference when using the GSM network for voice or data (and since GPRS and EDGE use GSM that is correct).
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Roaming rates and MVNO's
Plus, with T-Mobile, 100% of your usage can be on a roaming partner's network and they will never cut you off. My brother-in-law knows this from experience as it is one reason he signed up for T-Mobile with a Seattle number and has used it for almost seven years in Alaska with no problems at all. What's confusing is that I read that AT&T recently purchased the remnants of Cell-One and Dobson Wireless which I thought provided service in the North East including Vermont. I may be wrong on this but that would give them towers/spectrum rights in that state and the whole point would be moot. I still believe Apple would make much more of a profit making unlocked CDMA and GSM versions of the iPhone opening up their possible purchase base to over 194 million in the U.S. alone and over 2 billion worldwide according to gsmworld.com. Seems like less of a headache than providing the device to an exclusive carrier. Just my 2 cents. =)
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Re: Roaming rates and MVNO's
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AT&T
YAY Vermont ! Stick it to the Man !
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@#2 Touch is cool but its no iphone
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Biting them in the ass...
I guess they'll have to wait until T-Mobile offers their "iPhone Killer" before they'll both be in a situation that makes sense to bring the cross charges closer to the real world charges.
Come on miniOne/p168/open moko
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Some Finer Points
- Apple's Exclusive: Anyone who says Apple is nuts to offer an exclusive to AT&T is right only on the most superficial level. I mean, duh, it's better to have more carrier partners, more distribution, more customers. So if that's the depth of your thinking, it should have occurred to you that you're missing something. That something is: Apple got a HELL of a deal from AT&T. They got CONTROL, they got to use their iTunes store to move content to a phone, they get a share of recurring revenues. If you know the industry, you would know that this is unprecedented, and it's something that Nokia, Motorola, or Samsung have NEVER gotten. But you don't get something for nothing, so Apple had to offer the exclusive to AT&T in return for a boatload of benefits. All in all, it is a great deal for Apple. Without that level of control, the iPhone would have ended up looking like...the Motorola ROKR. That is precisely what happens to a good idea in the era before the iPhone. I'm not sure why 95% of the bloggers and fanboys out there don't get this.
- AT&T exclusive: it's funny but while the fanboys wonder why Apple agreed to an exclusive, the telco-heads wonder exactly the opposite: "Why did AT&T give Apple so much control?" And the reason is: this is the first device (ever) that will actually make a customer quit VZW, T-Mo, or Sprint, to move to AT&T. AT&T gave up control in order to compete with the market. I love it. Finally some gutsy competition in the industry. And it's working.
- Roaming: True that T-Mo runs its own network, as do most of the national cellcos. But that doesn't mean they run their 'entire' network. For example, T-Mobile is relatively weak in California, so they use AT&T towers and base stations for much of their coverage here. Turns out, AT&T uses T-Mo in other places, making a reciprocal deal. The deals these carriers make are not at the 45 cent a minute mark, but much lower...and confidential. In high-density urban areas, carriers will steadily be deploying their own equipment to reduce the roaming usage. So while the concept of MVNO is relatively new, many carriers have been partially MVNOs for some time.
- More Roaming: now, in more rural markets, like Vermont, it doesn't really make sense for 5 carriers to each deploy a network to cover some farms. Especially in hilly areas where it is more expensive to deploy. Thus, these areas frequently have fewer networks, which then provide roaming to the national carriers. Dobson, mentioned already in the comments, was one of the 'bigger small' GSM carriers in the US. Because of a specialized roaming deal, AT&T customers would invisibly shift over to Dobson when in their coverage area, and AT&T would absorb the costs for their nationwide customers. This was an uncomfortable expense national carriers needed to absorb if they wanted to claim national coverage, and put a lot of ink on the coverage map. But companies like Dobson have always known their value in filling out the map, so they charged a relatively high inbound roaming rate - and were also charged the same high rate by AT&T for their regional customers who roamed into the city. This turns out better for small carriers since they end up getting way more inbound roaming revenue than they spent in outbound roaming. What's more, unlike nationals, regionals often pass their high roaming fees on to the customer, so it doesn't cost them at all. Sick and tired of these expenses, wealthy nationals are slowly buying up the regional carriers. Dobson just got bought, but you can see Sprint has been buying their affiliates for years.
- More Roaming: There's roaming, and then there's roaming. If you take your AT&T phone to Canada, it will likely tell you that you are roaming, and your phone will display "Rogers", a Canadian GSM carrier. That's full on roaming, and the charges will show on your bill as roaming use while on the Rogers network. But these US rural roaming deals don't look that way. The carriers "virtualize" it. For example, an AT&T user roaming onto the Dobson GSM network would never see Dobson on the phone, nor on the bill.
- So it turns out, in the dog eat dog world of business, the regional companies are actually sticking it to the nationals. There is little competition in the markets they serve. They can say to AT&T, "There's only one GSM network deployed in my region, and I own it. So either you pay me a high roaming rate (expensive), or you can try to build your own (very expensive). Oh..you could also pay me a Billion to sell (not cheap)." Now, I'm not expecting you readers to feel sorry for AT&T, but now at least you can understand why they don't sell their service in stores in these regions, and don't want you to buy an iPhone, and take it to these regions.
And, no, Mike didn't miss the point, he just wasn't as verbose as I.
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Re: Some Finer Points
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Re: Some Finer Points
The important point is that they DIDN'T get my business. I will never again be a customer of AT&T. And I will warn all of you: sign up with AT&T and you will be sorry! You are far better off with ANYBODY else as a provider. Hell, you're better off to build your own phone company than to try to get any kind of reasonable service out of AT&T.
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Re: Re: Some Finer Points
Verizon would never allow the iPhone. They want control, control, control. If you transfer a ringtone or music to your phone without using their network (and paying $3) your not a customer they want.
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Re: Re: Some Finer Points
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How to get an iPhone without a contract:
2) Send it off to a friend in Vermont
3) Get contract terminated because of "roaming overuse"
4) ???
5) PROFIT!!!
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FCC
Carriers expand their non-roaming coverage area beyond their own infrastructure via reciprocal agreements with other providers so they can cover metropolitan areas and major interstates.
VT is hardly the only rural area of the country with this issue.
I've never heard of any specific roaming usage rate that would cause a carrier to drop a customer. It's certainly plausible that a consistently high roaming percentage +50% indicates the user does not actually live in the coverage area.
I also don't remember hearing such hue and cry over previous cellular exclusivity agreements.
Apple has always been about exclusivity, they have never licensed any of their products/technology to other manufacturers. It's how they protect quality and price point.
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Same with South Dakota
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Same with South Dakota
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Re: Same with South Dakota
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Oh, how the mighty molest adn abuse their customer
Now the NEO1973, with OpenMoko, shows much promise; I just hope the consumers will give it a well deserved chance.
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stupid
i am sure they hardly pay that much per minute, plus for every minute ATT roams on XX-Network someone roams on their network from XX-Network. so its not even that big off a loss for ATT since i am sure they have more roaming fees coming in then going out
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Vermont. Underground.
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Listen to this radio broadcast
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Simple solution
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Same in North Dakota
In the state of North Dakota Verizon and Alltel have agreement to use each others towers.
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FCC needs to do something
I am sooo tired of seeing endless iPhone news/articles/reviews dangled in front of me! Sure, I want one but, to me it's like saying only people in certain areas can buy a Mac! Every freakin' bill by every freakin' provider looks like an IRS audit. It takes hours to go through. I mean, why can't we jut have it like we do with computers and ISP's?
You buy a certain computer and then can choose whoever offers the best deal around. Buy an iPhone and all providers have the same coverage but, compete by offering better deals. I know, I know, it's not that simple but, really, isn;t that the whole point? Isn't technology supposed to makes our lives simpler? I'm in Maine and can't get an iPhone. Because of where I live I have to choose between fair and good cell phones. They all suck too. Yet, I pay the same as someone who uses ATT and has an iPhone. I hate it. I for one think the only hope is Google. They will offer free phones to use their air. EVERYWHERE!
As it is now, the ridiculous plans/coverage/phone deals in rural areas suck big time. Meanwhile, Google sees this and is getting it's camel nose under the tent while ATT and others insert their thumbs into warm, moist places. They are not innovating anymore and someone (Google?) will capitalize (literally)on this complacency and overtake them all like coy fox who waits patiently and makes his move. I've had it with all the absolute lunacy that the cell phone era has brought upon us. Ugh. Time for the FCC to make some big noise and fix the mess that companies like ATT have squeezed out of their collective rectums. How's that! ;-)
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Re: FCC needs to do something
How's that feel?
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Re: Re: FCC needs to do something
RE: "You know this is the only country in the world where people pay for incoming calls and text messages on their mobile phones? How's that feel?"
It feels good, because did YOU know that the US is the only country in the world where people pay (on average) 7 cents per minute of mobile use? It's roughly double that in other developed countries.
Furthermore, the "free" incoming minutes in other countries are not so free. The caller pays between 15 and 30 cents per minute for the priviledge of calling a mobile phone.
Nobody has cheaper cell phone voice use than USA customers. Hate the telcos if you must, but know your facts too.
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Re: FCC needs to do something
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PWNED
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AT&T Works for Bush Administration
As an aside, I think the Iphone is sweet. My Yuppie kids have two of them, so I've gotten a good "hands on". While my kids may be politically deaf, I am not and I will not buy an Iphone until I have the option of using a different carrier than AT&T.
Enjoy.
Enjoy.
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other GSM networks
And you guys are wrong about plan designs in the US. One carrier - US Cellular (small market CDMA only, rural provider, 5-6 million subscribers) offers free incoming text, pic messages and a plans with that have the option for free incoming calls.
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VT deserves it
The iPhone is just the beginning of what you will lose access to. Next is electricity, clean water and gas. Vermont is living in the 1600s and doesn't deserve the iPhone.
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Re: VT deserves it
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Re: VT deserves it
Yet, this is why people love Vermont. It is one of the only "unspoiled" states in the country. Burlington happens to be an amazing city that mixes this Vermont charm with a thriving business scene. Some of the best things (and people) come from Vermont.
It is not that Vermont does not have cell coverage. Just about everywhere there are people in Vermont, there is coverage (even for AT&T phones). So, there really is no reason why AT&T cannot expand their network to Vermont.
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Not fair
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First off many people have incorrectly stated that T-Mo is the only other GSM provider in the US. They are the only other "nation wide" GSM provider in the US. There are quite a number of much smaller "local" cell phone co's in the US who also use GSM. For example I'm quite happily using my GSM Cell here in Vermont, sold to me by my local Cell Provider RCC Wireless (under the business name Unicell).
It looks like Verizon is going to be buying RCC at some point this year, which should result in an interesting shake up of the local cell market as Verizon is NOT a GSM provider and reports indicate that they'll be forcing all RCC customers on to their network, which almost assuredly means that they'll be selling the GSM network to one of the nationwide majors which uses GSM. In other words it's looking like in a somewhat short time frame either AT&T or T-Mo will be up and running in Vermont.
As to why AT&T isn't here yet... it's a long and involved story that has much to do with an partnership/no-compete agreement that RCC and Cell-One (which begat Cingular, which begat AT&T) signed in the ancient days of the cutting edge StarTac. AT&T's current coverage in Vermont is all provided through RCC's network already. I'm pretty sure that AT&T has significantly cheaper roaming rate here than say T-Mo does because of the terms of the old partnership contract.
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Re:
Now when we go to the big city, Burlington, our RCC cell phones mostly work. Mine sits in my car turned off 99% of the time. I turn it on if I'm in the car and need to call someone, which is rare.
Yeah, it may be the 1600s here. We can't get cable or DSL at the house either (thank god for DirecTV). And you can forget about even getting a pizza delivered. Turns out we like it this way.
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Re: Re:
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ATT
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Breaking the Vampire AT&T's stanglehold on the iPh
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Breaking the Vampire AT&T's stanglehold on the iPh
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I have an iPhone in Vermont
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I have an IPhone In VT
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Re: I have an IPhone In VT
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I just got the ax
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Iphone
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Vermont
AT&T hasn't bothered to set up shop until now because it hasn't been cost effective to do so. From the Vermont posters, it sounds like the coverage they do have sucks ass anyway.
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Re: Vermont
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Re: Vermont
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nickysam
Vermont Treatment Centers
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