$1 Million if You Can Prove $7250 Speaker Cables Are Any Better Than $80 Speaker Cables
from the $302-per-foot-of-cable dept
There's just something about extreme audiophiles that is either amusing or depressing, depending on your point of view. Now, as a music fan, I've got nothing against trying to make things sound better -- but there are serious diminishing marginal returns after a certain point (and, of course, there are some really fantastic musical compositions that were recorded on such crappy equipment that it's never going to matter). However, there is a group of audiophiles who really seem to stick up their nose at anyone who dares to suggest they've taken things too far. Professional skeptic James Randi apparently wants to put them in their place -- and is offering up $1 million to make his case. As pointed out by Slashdot, Randi is now offering $1 million to anyone who can prove that there's any real difference in performance between a pair of $80 Monster HDMI cables (which many will claim is already overpriced) and the astoundingly priced $7,250 12-foot "Anjou" audio cables from Pear Cable. As Randi notes, the key is in the actual performance -- not in "qualities that can only be perceived by attentive dogs or by hi-tech instrumentation."
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Filed Under: audiophiles, skeptics, speaker cable
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YES!
I would love to see some empirical research on whether a random sampling of Americans can tell the difference between a 256kbps mp3 and a CD
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Re: YES!
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Re: Re: YES!
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Re: Re: Re: YES!
I have been a sound engineer for a while now and I have tested 'normal' people with untrained ears to see if they can tell the difference and 75% of them can. Even though the information that is removed from the CD signal is supposed to be impreceivable, it still interacts with the parts of the signal that are perceivable, meaning that when the "impereceivable" stuff is removed there does end up being audible changes in the compressed version.
Don't get me wrong, compressed audio can sound good, but only if done properly. Although it will never replace the uncompressed 192kHz 24bit that I listen to in my studio :)
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Actually due to the lossy compression
They aren't significantly not as good, nobody cares, give me a break.
Did I mention dork yet?
p.s. You spelled imperceivable wrong.
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Re: YES!
so good luck with that.
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Re: YES!
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Re: YES!
First off, the Pear Cable "ANJOU" are analog interconnects and the Monster is an HDMI cable, so it's impossible to compare the two because they don't do the same thing.
is this an actual Randi test? Do you have a link to this so called offer? I want my Million.
Now, does he want empirical measurements or does he want subjective listening tests? Maybe the cable mfg don't know that Randi has this offer. But if they want measurements, heres's what I would look at. Bandwidth. Some of these higher priced HDMI cables simply have higher bandwidth, or are rated at the bandwidth at longer cable lengths.
But the Anjou cables aren't even HDMI, so it's impossible to compare an HDMI cable to an RCA interconnect.
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Re: YES!
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I can
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Depends on the definition
It's being able to prove your case that is the impossible bit.
People are different in their perceptions and what is a vast improvement to one, may not be to another.
True, it's worth making a case for this if you have one, but my guess is that this was entirely made for the publicity generated by such an offer - if the prize is obtainable or not gets pushed to the side. Because this is so much money for such a 'simple' task, it will generate alot of publicity and interest in his point.
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Re: Depends on the definition
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This is about cables
But if the quality was that much better there wouldn't be a million dollar prize for this would there...
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Re: This is about cables
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Re: This is about cables
And it wouldn't matter if speaker cables were made of better conducting materials, as long as you keep a proper impedance.
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Re:
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Gold not so good.
Mostly the reason using gold-plated or tipped cable is simply because it doesn't tarnish.
So when you connect it to your amplifier, you didn't get any degradation of that itsy-bitsy source signal, that you are trying to get through the gear. I don't know if having gold plated cables in the speaker cables to the amplifier make any difference, because there is so much power, your end result might not be worth it. So worry about the patch cables in between the components first.
But not having anything that decent, I might be wrong.
According to this website(and others);
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html
"Resistivities(sp) at room temp:
Element Electrical resistivity (microohm-cm)
Aluminum 2.655
Copper 1.678
Gold 2.24
Silver 1.586
Platinum 10.5
This clearly puts silver as the number one conductor and gold has higher resistance than silver or copper. It's desireable(sp) in connectors because it does not combine well with other materials so remains relatively pure at the surface. It also has the capability to adhere to itself (touch pure gold to pure gold and it sticks together) which makes for very reliable connections. "
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Re: Gold not so good.
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Re: Gold not so good.
That's due to the connectors tarnishing over time and building up an oxide layer which degrades the connection. By removing and reinserting the connector you are in effect scraping this oxide layer off, once more improving the connection. As you state gold doesn't do this
That's the exact reason that gold plated connectors make for a better connection - just in case you were interested
Sorry - my inner geek got hold of me for a second ;0)
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As a musician...
--
Texas CHL classes in North Dallas
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as far as i know mp3 with 192 bit rate is equivalent to cd quality.
[/quote]
How wrong can you be....
By contrast, uncompressed audio as stored on a compact disc has a bit rate of 1,411.2 kbit/s (16 bits/sample × 44100 samples/second × 2 channels / 1000 bits/kilobit).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3#Bit_rate
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Re:
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Oh for the love of Pete!!
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Easy Money
He doesn't define "performance" so I don't believe an audible difference in sound quality needs to be proven, just that one is better than the other.
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Re: Easy Money
That's a catch all comment. Even if you could prove that it's better, if he can't hear it than you lose.
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Re: Re: Easy Money
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I've heard it said...
Music lovers listen to music.
Audiophiles listen to stereos.
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Who Cares??
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Re: Who Cares??
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He was decrying the ridiculous price of Monster HDMI (a $10 dollar generic cable works just as well, IMO. It is a digital signal and as long as the 1's and 0's get to their destination all is well) and the ludicrous price Pear charges for their premium speaker cables.
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1 Million Dollars
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Re: 1 Million Dollars
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Insulation
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Maybe...
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all digital?
if they're both digital cables, the ONLY time there will be a difference in sound is if there is a signal error across the line.
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Re: all digital?
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Comparing apples to pears?
HDMI = Digital interconnect for source component
Anjou = Analog interconnect for speakers
There is no way for you to compare these two items side by side. You'd need two totally different source/output devices to pull this off. Which means you're now comparing SYSTEMS not cables.
The key component to any audio system is the listener. If you’re not LISTENING attentively then you’ll never hear a difference in any system. But if you pay attention you will be moved by a quality audio system, I promise.
This whole challenge diminishes the real reason people call themselves audiophiles - they're snobs. Like someone who will spend an hour describing a glass of wine they are more interested in the esoteric depth of their knowledge than the true expression of they product - wine or music.
All hail to Pear for taking every dime they can from these goofy bastards.
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Best Buy
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Uh....High-Definition Multimedia Interface. Actually, HDMI cables do carry audio and can "support 8-channel uncompressed digital audio at 192 kHz sample rate with 24 bits/sample as well as any compressed stream such as Dolby Digital, or DTS. HDMI supports up to 8 channels of one-bit audio, such as that used on Super Audio CDs at rates up to 4x that used by Super Audio CD. With version 1.3, HDMI now also supports lossless compressed streams such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio."
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Re:
It would have helped you to read the word "usually" from the sentence you misunderstood.
Then again, that's what you get for plagiarizing clearly in your post.
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In any event, any miniscule increase in quality would never be worth that much money. All it amounts to is extremely expensive bragging rights. I could certainly think of better uses for that kind of money. Heck, if I had seven grand laying around, I'd be making a substantial down payment on a new car, which is actually useful for something.
Oh, and to the moron who says that HDMI cables don't usually transmit audio, do yourself a favor and use your favorite search engine of choice to research this one. The HDMI spec is all about having a single cable that transmits BOTH video and audio digitally. About the only time you will find an HDMI hookup that does not transmit audio is if you are converting a DVI-out port from a PC to HDMI (DVI is video only, so you have to use a separate connection to the PC's audio jack) or if you are using some el cheapo A/V receiver that doesn't support audio via HDMI.
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been done
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Re: been done
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reminds me of my buddy telling me about some Best Buy Woes he expirenced while working in HS.
his manager was reading a BB "trainer" on ways to push the "expensive" monster cables.
it was something to the effect that "they use gold and are bigger. this alows the electricity to move faster so the noise doesn't catch up" wow...just wow.
but moving along, i think it's quite possible to show any type of signal loss/attenuation with good test equipment. however, i think the goal of the challenge is to show that while technically you get a better signal, what is the return? i.e. if you only get a .00001% increase for an extra 7.2k is it worth it? moreover, where is the "line" so to speak where it isn't noticeable by the populace?
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i guess no one here reads avsforum?
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable
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High End Audio is just a big joke...
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Professional high end rigs do not use unbalanced audio. They do not use RCA. The Winspear center in Edmonton is one of the best places in North America to listen to live music. In the Amplifier room, you will find absolutely nothing but 22 guage twisted shielded pair for mic and drive lines and 18 to 10 guage unshielded twisted pair for speakers. That's it. No Monster cable, no bilge about "oxygen free" and no RCA jacks.
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It's digital, man! not analog.... duh!
The supposed benefits of monstor-sized speaker wire (analog) or stereo interconnects (analog) are just irrelevant and nonsensical to talk about when the medium is carrying digital data. Anyone who claims to hear a difference in sound between two HDMI cables is a liar.
Because of the robustness of digital signal transmission and the possibility of using error-correction to perfectly reconstruct the digital original perfectly, down to the bit, this whole bruhaha about super cables has become irrelevant, and only a fool with a lot of money to burn and ego to pump will buy this garbage.
Why do you think CDs supplanted vinyl? or DVD audio has supplanted CD? Digital makes defects in the transmission or storage medium virtually irrelevant.
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Best Buy
I have a 12' cable. heck, our cabling and infrastructure people periodically run our Cat5 > 100 meters by 1-30 meters and still test out fine. it is impossible to have a difference in sound if you have a digital line that doesn't get errors. it's like bragging that my 1s and 0s are clearer. now if the 1s and 0s get swapped or can't be read, there will be a difference, but with no line errors, spending a billion $$$$ on a cable won't help.
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Just use Cat5 wire
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rich tax
Do you honestly think that any true audiophile would spend that much on a cable? I think not, they would buy speakers. or possibly a speaker. I think the audiophiles will know that for their 7000 dollar investment they would be far better off buying better speakers than better cable.
Its true that any "real" stereo system is only as good as the cabling. But everyone knows that putting a $7000 cable on a $500 system isnt going to make it sound any better.
To do a true test for the million, you would have to have the best quality equpiment, ie a system that will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars anyway.
If this was a true test (ie not just a digital cable VS a speaker cable) then it would be possible to hear the difference between one cable and another on the right piece of kit, however very very few people have other audio components with quality this high, so the effect is lost.
To be honest, im an audiophile on a budget and when it comes to speaker cable i go to the hardware store and buy electrical wire (twisted pair is best, due to the twisted wires being less suceptable to interference) as the wire is high gauge, and its all made of high grade copper. This costs about a dollar a meter, compared to audio electronic shops who will sell you poorer quality cables for a LOT more
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Simply amazing
One time he offered $1 million for documented proof of miraculous healing. When presented with literally thousands of cases, did he ever pay out? Of course not. He used the presented evidence to "prove" that sometimes tumors completely disappear overnight, etc. This in spite of seasoned medical professionals saying there was no scientific way for these things to happen.
In this case, he is comparing HDMI (digital) cable to analog speaker cable. For proof, he gives a weasel-like statement that is not even scientific, as usual.
He is right in this case, though. There will be no difference between an $80 HDMI cable and any other HDMI cable on earth. Both will successfully get all 1s and 0s to their destination.
A more interesting test would be to find a $15 Acoustic Research or Blue Jeans Cable that successfully gets all the 1s and 0s to their destination and then challenge anyone to find a cable that costs more and "performs better", with the test being a reading of the 1s and 0s on the other side.
But of course, as all semi-technical people know, a digital signal either gets there or it doesn't.
Oh, and as far as the unshielded lamp cord goes, you can always tell when a church used one on the platform, because you can quietly hear radio stations in the background or police radio suddenly interrupting the sermon as a police car drives by. The sound board guy will always swear that his lamp cord is a great idea and saved the church a bundle and that it has nothing to do with the problem.
Of course, replacing the lamp cord with a quality shielded cable always fixes the problem.
I assume the Physics lab was very well-shielded, so your friend didn't notice this phenomenon.
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Re: Simply amazing
Sir, we at the James Randi Educational Foundation have ALWAYS offered the million-dollar prize for "documented proof of miraculous healing," and we still do. NOT ONE of those who claim they can establish this phenomenon has offered ANY evidence of it. They have preferred to state - as you did - that we ignored the proof. There was no "presented evidence," as you say there was. Bottom line: the grubbies continue to make unsupported claims that we challenge, every day, and they don't come forward to collect the million.
Along with the rest of the world, we have to wonder why, and we think we know...
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Digital cables and the length of a bit
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Let idiots be idiots
It's just like certain unskilled but ludicrously expensive modern art, for example. If the idiot buyers are out there, good luck!
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yea... more dollars then brain cells
'who's got' the 7000+ dollars to spend on buying a dozen feet of both cables to *TEST* this theory..
because if its wrong, then the buyer that wanted to try that experiment is out *7 grand* plus for a pair of cables that prompted them to shoot for the million dollar prize!
Personally, I can definetly see the reason's behind the necessity of this test, but I, for one, as jane normal honestly can't cough up seven grand plus for doing something that I am already convinced is a fool's errand.. if they have that much money and can throw it away on vanity of a cable put together by some company that knows their ego is as big as their wallets, then they dont see them as customers.. they see them as the Assinine SUCKERS they are.
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yea... more dollars then brain cells
'who's got' the 7000+ dollars to spend on buying a dozen feet of both cables to *TEST* this theory..
because if its wrong, then the buyer that wanted to try that experiment is out *7 grand* plus for a pair of cables that prompted them to shoot for the million dollar prize!
Personally, I can definetly see the reason's behind the necessity of this test, but I, for one, as jane normal honestly can't cough up seven grand plus for doing something that I am already convinced is a fool's errand.. if they have that much money and can throw it away on vanity of a cable put together by some company that knows their ego is as big as their wallets, then they dont see them as customers.. they see them as the Assinine SUCKERS they are.
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What i think your forgetting is the general use of portable audio.... it doesnt have to be as good.
For 2 reasons.
Firstly its being listened to generally using some headphones - not large speakers. There would be a difference there, even with CD.
Secondly - its on the move. People are more concerned to try and fit as much in a small area as possilbe - not making sure its CD quality.
When people are at home however they expect better. Just look how CD`s are still selling..... thats because people want CD quality. If people didnt notice, then surely everyone would get MP3 hifis and download the MP3`s as its cheaper..... not many people do.
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"Well, we at the JREF are willing to be shown that these “no-compromise” cables perform better than, say, the equivalent Monster cables."
So there's the challenge. Does a 7000 set of speaker cables "perform" better than a Monster cable *equivalent*. See how easy that was?
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It's in the equipment too.
However, the same roommate also latter got a monster cable powerstrip that was suppossed to remove rf noise from the power line, and even on the same tv, it made a noticable difference in over the air tv when the tv and the attenna power cable was hooked through it
(no cable on campus, thankfully i am no longer at college)
I can't imagine needing a 7k video cable unless you had this tv:
http://www.engadget.com/2004/12/16/samsungs-102-inch-plasma-tv/
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Techdirt post is wrong
http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-09/092807reply.html#i4
He never challenged a comparison of digital vs. analog, he said he was suprised a Monster HDMI cable cost $80 until he saw there were speaker cables selling for $7K+, then he challenged that the Monster Equivalent of the Pear Anjou would sound the same.
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Yeah
Real conductivity results:
0.377 10^6/cm ohm Aluminum Al 13
0.452 10^6/cm ohm Gold Au 79
0.596 10^6/cm ohm Copper Cu 29
0.63 10^6/cm ohm Silver Ag 47
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hell yeah
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Your Wish Is Your Command
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Crazy...
Although, most people think spending $600 on a CD player is crazy...
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What Happened?
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