Why Politicians Forcing People To Change Lightbulbs Is A Bad Idea
from the taking-away-natural-incentives dept
Earlier this month, we pointed out that Ireland had joined Australia in setting a date for banning incandescent lightbulbs. There had been talk about the US following suit, and now it (almost) has, approving legislation that would phase out inefficient bulbs by 2012, such as the incandescents that most people still use. Once again, though, we have to point out how counterproductive a move like this seems. Already, more and more people were moving to more efficient bulbs naturally, as they realized how much money they actually saved with them. For those who complained about the type of light given off by the fluorescents, that just gave more incentives for the makers of CFLs to make the light better match incandescent bulbs. The competition also gave more incentives to make CFLs cheaper and even more efficient, as well as coming up with ways to make the (already seriously overhyped) worries about mercury, less of an issue. However, if politicians take away the competition from incandescents, it suddenly gives the makers of CFLs a lot less incentive to come up with these kinds of innovations and breakthroughs.
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Filed Under: energy, environment, greentech, lightbulbs, politics
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Re:
Actually, I haven't seen that. I've switched almost entirely to CFL's and I don't notice the difference at all. About the *only* thing I now notice is that the CFLs take a split second longer to turn on.
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Re: harsh CFLs
thanks
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Re: Re: harsh CFLs
Also, I forgot to mention earlier; Even if the color were slightly different, and it's not, I could live with it considering it brought my $180 electric bill down to $80 my first FULL billing cycle of using them. (there were a lot of lights in that apartment).
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Re: Re: Re: harsh CFLs
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Re: Re: harsh CFLs
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Re: Re:
I was just about to say the same thing. I've been using all CFLs for a couple of years now. The old ones did suck but I currently use a combination of GE and Sylvania and both give off light that is the same as an incandescent as far as I can tell. And as for the split second to turn on; the 21watt (100 watt equiv) bulbs are instantaneous. the lower wattage bulbs take a bit to turn on and warm up, but that's negligible.
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Re: Re:
I've tried various CFL's and there is a significant difference between the light from the CFL's and standard incadesant. If you're not noticing any difference I'd love to know what brand you are using because it's not any of the six brands I've tried.
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Incorrect assumption.
This is is 180 degrees wrong. Once alternative lighting is only competing against other alternative lighting, then innovation and competition to come out on top of the new market will drive technological progress like nothing you have ever seen before.
The same thing would happen if world wide we instituted a ban on any passenger vehical that got less than 50 mpg. Sure we would lose a few existing car companies, but thousands of new car companies would form and come up with a ten thousand innovative new designs.
The only people complaining are the ones that are comfortable with the existing status quo.
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Re: Incorrect assumption.
There is no way thousands of car companies could form. For one, it costs at least $60 million to get a car crash certified, and that doesn't include all of the emissions testing necessary... And, secondly, the DoT requires $500 million of liability insurance per manufacturer.
Both of those are HUGE barriers to entry, and there are plenty of others (and more coming, like mandatory stability control and pedestrian safety) with no exceptions for small production volumes. All of which explains why there are few small, low production, independent manufacturers in the US.
Back on topic, it's likely the same situation exists with regards to CFLs. This legislation is much more likely to benefit a few incumbents rather than create a real competitive market.
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Re: Incorrect assumption.
Any time the government steps in and says yes or no about something in a functioning industry it creates big problems. The free market will decide when incandescent bulbs are no longer viable.
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Re: Incorrect assumption.
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My oven
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Re: My oven
Fridge: LEDs - bad idea to put a light-source that relies on heating a bit of metal to thousands of degrees inside a fridge anyway. (even if the light is only a really low-wattage one)
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Re: Re: My oven
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Re: My oven - not too cold for winter!
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Re: Re: My oven - not too cold for winter!
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Re:
For just a few dollars more per street light they could each have their own solar pack and not touch the grid unless the sun has not been out in a long time.
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Re: Re:
Toronto Hydro is conducting some real-life testing of street lamp alternatives.
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Re:
See table 2 on this page: http://www.bchydro.com/business/investigate/investigate3668.html
Also, CFL's diffuse lighting doesn't work at distances more than 15 ft., making it useless for street lighting.
Chris.
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Re:
I live at the corner of two side streets and there are at least five street lights within a 100 feet. We rarely ever need a light in the backyard. They could remove two or three of those street lights with no impact on safety.
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Light
In my dad's bedroom are five 60w equivalent CFLs meant for ceiling light fixtures - they come on so dim that you can barely find your way around the room and it takes five minutes for them to reach full brightness. They produce a dull yellow light until fully on and a slightly yellow light thereafter.
In my kitchen light are five spiral 60w eq. CFLs. They come on at probably 80 percent brightness and take around a minute to reach full brightness. I can't distinquish them from incandescent and my digital camera has to be set for incandescent light to keep the photos from discoloring.
In my bedroom are four 100w eq. spiral CFLs. They come on at around 60 percent brightness and reach 100 percent within about one minute. I tend to think these are a little whiter(bluer?) than incandescent but my mom came in and commented on my yellowish skin. Liver problems or jaundice? No, because stepping into the hall and under regular incandescent bulbs I looked normal. Camera still takes best pics when set for incandescent light though so they are close.
In my painting studio I have three banks of 100W eq. spiral CFLs. One contains 3500K bulbs, one 5000K and the last 6500K for a range of lighting conditions from warm sun to cool shade, direct to indirect, yellowish to distinctly blue. They also take about a minute to reach full brightness. What a blast seeing how different things look under different bulbs.
Scattered about through other lights are assorted brands of CFLs, mostly 60w eq spirals. Color varies greatly as does startup time. Lifetime of two or three brands were measured in minutes to an hour. Others have been going strong for months.
What it all comes down to is the particular bulb you're using. If you don't like one brand, wattage, or color temp you can probably find one that you do. Hopefully CFLs in general will start to meet the claimed lifetime, turn on faster, and gain some consistancy in color for generic (non-specific color temp) bulbs. It'd be nice if they'd make them ceiling fan tolerant too. None of my short-lifers were in fans, but many of my others are and the packaging says vibration reduces lifetime.
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Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb dumb
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Re: Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb dumb
They should do the same thing with the oil and auto industries, but it's much more "popular" to demand cafe standards from "big auto" than increase fuel costs to the poor helpless "consumer," although it's less efficient and we pay either way.
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Re: Re: Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb dumb
Well, not quite.
I don't completely understand the idea of conserving electricity just for the sake of doing so. I conserve electricity because when I don't, it costs me more money. If the supply of electricity is insufficient to handle the demand, then the right approach is to let the price float to the market-clearing price. If you're worried about poor folks being able to afford to heat their houses, have a tiered price system. No need to impose a tax.
In any case, the right approach is to create more electricity (I prefer nuclear power -- it's safe and clean). That, combined with improvements in battery and capacitor technology, will allow us to dramatically cut back on our use of oil by making plug-in hybrids cost-efficient.
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Re: Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb dumb
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Another problem not mentioned
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Re: Another problem not mentioned
This is a myth. Not only is it a myth, but I linked to the site debunking the myth in the post itself. Please don't repeat the myth.
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Re: Another problem not mentioned
Remember this when switching to the newer CFL's.... they contain a very high amount of mercury. Should you ever break one by accident you will introduce dangerous levels of mercury into your house. The cost of cleanup can get into thousands of dollars, pretty much negating any saving you may earn.
Actually, they only contain ~3mg of mercury, about a 100 times less than what's in the old thermometers we used to put in kid's mouths...
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Re: Another problem not mentioned
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Re: Re: Another problem not mentioned
OH, you mean punctuation! lol
I'm not used to seeing punctuation measured in milligrams, I guess
*red faced*
I'll stfu & gbtw now
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Competition
Since there's not, however, I'd say that competition between all of the companies in all of the different countries will probably ensure an adequate level of innovation. Especially when you factor in LEDs, OLEDs, and other alternative sources into the equation.
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They hurt!
This is really not good policy, I guess I'll have to start stocking up on incandescents now!
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Re: They hurt!
Exactly - it has very little to do with the color temperature of a particular CFL bulb.
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Black market bulbs...
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That said, I am still against outlawing incandescents. Not for the reasons stated above, but because there may be a few situations were incandescents may the best choice and I think people should be allowed to make stupid choices. I am in favor of a fuel guzzler tax on incandescents that would make initial purchase about the same as fluorescent.
I don't subscribe to the idea the incandescents are what is driving innovation in lighting. I have started moving on the LED lighting. Fluorescent will have to keep improving if they are to stay ahead of LEDs.
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Most dimmers and many timer systems used to control power usage will not work with CFLs at best the user loses control of thier lighting level and ability to time light usage .. at worst these all have to be replaced and junked.
also I understand that there are more hazardous wasted issues with the CFLs vs the old glass and wire incandescents.
This sounds like more Global Warming Cult panic.. Teh sky is falling lets fill the land fills with Mercury!!!!
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Great! Send them mine!
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1. Open a window and leave the room for at least 15 minutes;
2. Wear disposable gloves and pick up the broken pieces;
3. Take a damp cloth and wipe and clean the area;
4. Use duct tape to pat the area to remove any other small pieces;
5. Place the broken pieces, cloth, disposable gloves and duct tape in a sealed bag and dispose of in the household garbage (outside).
http://www.ct.gov/dep/cwp/view.asp?a=2708&q=378846
So CFLs are safe and save energy unless they break in the winter and I have to leave my window open for 15 minutes then reheat the house..
sounds to me like another panic rush to make what is just another out of date technology in a new package a legal regulation.
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-KC
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Re:
More and more people are buying alternatives to incandescents without the need for additional taxes, incentives or legislation. Seems the market has doing a much better job than the government.
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Re:
I would also be careful swinging around words like "freaking retards" considering what you have written.
I believe it was Winston Churchhill who said it takes about twenty years for a liberal to become a conservative, all without changing a single opinion.
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Re:
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go liberal and you get crap like this from the UK, Australia, Germany etc.
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Well...the government's job IS to govern...unless you're a "Liberatarian" wingnut. So, I say tax the hell out of incadescents and/or ban them until people "choose" to quit being freakin retards and use the more efficient bulbs. Sorry, but the market is not a substitute for government.
-KC
Written like a true Junior Facist...
Wow... just turn over your liberties to the goverment and all will be well... how pathic .. if you like this go move to China or North Korea and you will be in Utopia .
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Many of you guys have it wrong
Creating solar panels for the street lamps is COSTLY. Not only do the panels cost quite a bit, but you also have to take into account batteries (that will need to be replaced over time)
In America, traffic lights have long since switched from incandescent to a halogen to save electricity. Those are being replaced for LED ones. This switch is occurring irrespective of the law for citizens. And this switch by the state isn't an excuse for the citizens to not make the switch.
We all should switch on the basis that using OUR electricity more efficiently will create less waste. Argue about how harsh or displeasing the light is all you want, but remember, necessity is the mother of all invention. Somebody will make it. Maybe you should.
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Anyone remeber
The new bulbs may be more efficient but they still seem to be lacking. I read on the EPA's sight that constantly turning the bulb on and off reduces its life. They say to leave it on for at least 15 minutes.
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Re: Anyone remember
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Re: Anyone remeber (low flow toilets)
But I bought a toilet last fall (Toto) that uses about 1 gallon per flush(unless you hold the lever down). Only once has it needed the full flush (filled toilet with dog hair). This 1.6 gpf toilet flushes better than any 3.5 gallon toilet I've ever seen.
So toilet technology advanced because of the law, and while service briefly declined, in the long term society is better served because of it.
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2. Wear disposable gloves and pick up the broken pieces;
3. Take a damp cloth and wipe and clean the area;
4. Use duct tape to pat the area to remove any other small pieces;
5. Place the broken pieces, cloth, disposable gloves and duct tape in a sealed bag and dispose of in the household garbage (outside). "
After these steps, burn down your home and garbage can to insure the mercury threat has been eliminated. It is best to avoid the contaminated site for up to 3000 years as the mercury breaks down into harmless carbon.
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What about hotels?
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Re: What about hotels?
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Re: What about hotels?
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Hate the damn CFLs? Want a bulb to work outside at -40 or in your oven at 425? Or just want some decent family photos, then come on down to BMB to get the best deals local dealers in every metro area!!!
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Dimmers?
Bottom line - when energy is too expensive and the altenative justifies the consumer will adjust.
If someone can point me to a link where I can buy the following fluorescent bulbs, I'm on board. In the past I haven't been able to find them and don't want to mix and match the lighting in our house.
100 Watt Fluorescent Bulb that can be DIMMED with a standard dimmer that outputs essentially the same light as a normal incandescent light.
50/100/150 Tri-Wattage Fluorescent Bulb - outputs the same light as an incadescent light.
Interior Can/Spot/Flood Lights - 80 or 100 Watt - Dimmable via standard dimmer - Same output as standard incandescent light.
I'm serious about this - if these exist, I'm about saving money on my electrical bill, but the last I checked they were no where to be found.
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trafficing
Think I should start collecting light bulbs? I could sell them as historical artifacts of global warming on al gore's planet, using al gore's internet. Wonder how many of these bulbs that boob has in his mansion? couple thousand?
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Re: trafficing
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CFLs
Who'd have thought that seat belt legislation would have paved that way for head rests, lumbar support, etc. Or that catalytic converters would help pave the way for high efficiency engines. Unfortunately, much of this development occurred in other countries...
Both of these ideas were originally opposed by the US auto industry.
Now we're opposing stem cell research based on religious views...incredible!!! How far we've regressed to get a few votes...
Bottom line...those that have, get comfortable and don't like to share...and pay for legislation so much of this must be developed outside of the US, imported back in, and...whoops!...there goes another trade deficit!
But my all time favorite is our current strategy to base on economy on guns and weaponry, and be afraid to sell to China , the world's largest economy. Not exactly a recipe for success...
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Re: CFLs
Here's an opposite example -- what work has gone into finding new ways to reduce SO2 output from coal-burning power plants?
Currently, the federal government mandates the use of scrubbers. As a result, nobody is working on developing alternative methods, because there's no market for those methods. Western ("clean") coal, for example, burns cleanly without significant SO2. But, eastern power plants have no incentive to use it -- by law, they have to use the scrubbers, so there's no advantage to switching.
A scrubber, however, is not just a bunch of brushes installed in a smokestack -- scrubbers are expensive (they're often as large as the power plant itself) and can consume 25% of the plant's power output. So, the net result of this dumb policy is to jack up the price of electricity and kill off innovation.
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Not a bad idea at all...
The question isn't coercion. Rather it is what you subsidize or allow by not charging users the full public cost through taxation.
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Mike's dead wrong, AGAIN
When incandescents are banned you will no longer have incandescent vs CFl, but CFL vs CFL. This will cause CFL manufacturers into direct competition for ALL of the lighting and since people will still yearn for the warm glow of incandescents, whichever CFL mimics them the greatest will win.
Saying anything else is just plain foolish.
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Re: Mike's dead wrong, AGAIN
The fact of the matter is there there are two different markets, those who will use CFL no matter what and those who will use incandescent no matter what.
This is simply untrue, as seen by the growing conversion of folks who used incandescents switching to CFLs. It is clearly a substitution market, rather than two distinct markets. I'm curious how you could consider them to be two distinct markets as there is almost zero support for that fact.
When incandescents are banned you will no longer have incandescent vs CFl, but CFL vs CFL. This will cause CFL manufacturers into direct competition for ALL of the lighting and since people will still yearn for the warm glow of incandescents, whichever CFL mimics them the greatest will win.
That's a bit of wishful thinking. Wouldn't it be better to have CFL's compete directly with incandescents to make a better product overall? Without the actual competition from incandescents, CFLs just need to be a little bit better, rather than a lot better. So, no, I'm afraid that despite your usual desperate attempt to make me look wrong it is, again, you who appears to be incorrect.
Nice try, though. At least you didn't set up a complete strawman, though it is fairly laughable to think that CFLs and incandescents are distinct markets, rather than substitutes. That's a laughable assertion.
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Paul's dead wrong, AGAIN
That represents two opposite extremes of the SAME market. In between are the people who are moving from incandescents to CFLs and other alternatives.
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I'm using them right now. Beautiful. Just beautiful.
They're expensive, but they're not hazardous, they're not hot, and they don't burn out as quickly. I can keep them on without raising my power bill too much.
Right now, I just have them in little lamps, for at night and stuff, but when they get cheaper...
BAM!
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Furnace Repair Thunder Bay
Furnace Repair Thunder Bay
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