eBay Bans Negative Feedback For Buyers; Everyone Be Good Now
from the here-in-lake-wobegone... dept
eBay has been making some changes lately that aren't sitting well with eBay sellers. First, it announced fee changes that initially were promoted as "lower fees," but the details showed were only lower for goods that didn't sell. The fees on sold goods were actually higher. Now, the company has banned sellers from giving "negative" feedback on buyers. This is quite an interesting move. Years back, eBay was often held up as the epitome of user feedback/rating systems. However, over the years, problems have cropped up, leading to questions about how effective the system really is, as it's often been gamed. A specific complaint is that many buyers are afraid to leave negative feedback, as a seller can retaliate and provide a similarly negative response to the buyers. The hope, then, is that by not allowing negative feedback, buyers can start being more honest about sellers. Of course, from the sellers' standpoint, it also means it's much more likely that buyers can now be problematic, without worrying about a response. eBay claims that it will now personally handle complaints from sellers about problem buyers -- which seems like a pretty big undertaking for the company. Either way, there does seem to be something silly in having a company offer a feedback system if you can only say positive things.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: bans, feedback, negative feedback
Companies: ebay
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
This is a sooper idea. Its effects are wide ranging. Dumb people do dumb things and dumb people shouldn't be publicly mauled, No not at all. Where's the responsibility these days?
Can't wait until this idea trickles to FICO scores, and we all can pay the same interest rates! Here it comes. Grab your ankles and brace for it!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: eBaY Feedback System Changes
I also currently have a buyer supercoop3406 who has won an item from me in an auction which ended May 4, 2008. I have sent several invoices and have received absolutely no contact from this person. Even if they do eventually pa, wht-the-heck, who wants to be strung-out for 2 weeks or more
with no contact on a transaction?? This is a classic case of a "Deadbeat Bidder" as I like to call them. THIS PERSON DESERVES "NEGATIVE FEEDBACK" FOR THIS TRANSACTION, AND, NOW THANKS TO EBAY I AM UNABLE TO LEAVE IT FOR THEM. I want t know who's Knee-Jerk decision it was to make these changes. The system is not perfect, but, each side has a “Fair And Balanced” chance to leave feedback for the other.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
From now on when I sell I don't leave feedback until I get feedback. I will leave honest feedback whether it's Neg or Positive. But, If they're not going to gelp my rating then I'm not going to help theirs.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Great!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Great!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Great!
Should you be allowed to leave bad feedback for a seller that you did not pay ? Thats the real question.
A buyer should not be qualified to rate the seller in anyway if heshe has never purchased products from the seller via non payment.
This is pretty simple really I don't know how ebay has made this so complicated.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Great for who?!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Great!
On the other hand, if the seller over-commit fast shipment but actually it is not, then you should do your best to tell people your experience.
The point is - over-commit can take more business, but at the same time make more unhappy buyer, so your feedback is important to warn the other buyer.
However, if seller best describe the shipping situation, he already lose lots of potential transaction so never put the salt to someones wound.
Of course, if you are very care the delivery time, why don't you pay more and use express mail like FEDEX, UPS or DHL? Right?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Great!
It is ridiculous that if a seller runs into a buyer that is going out of their way to be difficult and making unreasonable demands, that the only thing the seller can do is leave a positive feedback!!! I know for a fact that some buyers try to nitpick items they receive, just so they can get some money back AND keep the item, and some leave a negative feedback despite the seller being cooperative, with no fear of repercussion! It isn't just sellers that can be problematic.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Once bitten....
IOW, the feedback should be about the transaction, not about the feedback. And since eBay cannot enforce that, they will try other methods. Will see how that will work.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Once bitten....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Once bitten....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Once bitten....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Once bitten....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
i recently had an incident where i wrote to ebay, detailing why negative feedback for buyers is ludicrous.
my frustration stemmed from the fact that if a buyer leaves a negative feedback for a seller, it is VIRTUALLY INEVITABLE to expect negative feedback in return, even if as a buyer, you do nothing wrong.
I recently won an auction on ebay. I had tried contacting the seller to ask a question about the item 4 days BEFORE i bid...no response. I won the auction, and 3 days AFTER, i had STILL RECEIVED no response from the buyer.
So, I left a negative feedback, truly expecting never to hear from the seller again. I left feedback essentially stating that the seller had poor communication.
Low and behold, the next day, I receive the FIRST contact I had received from the seller, stating he had NO CHOICE but to leave me negative feedback...not because i had done anything wrong, but as a retaliatory attack on the negative feedback i had left for him. Of course, his utter lack of communication was deserving of the negative feedback, while I had done nothing wrong.
Negative feedback from sellers for buyers is WORTHLESS. all a buyer needs to do is to pay on time...that's it! What ebay needs to do, (since they already own paypal this will be easy) is to denote on average, HOW LONG IT TAKES PEOPLE TO PAY for goods they have won...end of story.
I complained numerous times to ebay's customer complaint people after this incident a week ago...guess they got my message.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
We deal daily with individuals that want to bid and not pay. I am extremely uneasy about 0 to 10 Feedback buyers. I have too many playing games.
Leaving Negative has never been our first choice but after going through EBAY the slotted time frame, we have left a few negs to non paying buyers,Someone has to warn other sellers of these game playing jerks. We go through EBAYS channels to get refunded the final Value Fees. We eat the listing fees!. I feature alot of auctions and a nonpaying customers joke will cost me $20-$30.
But thats over now. They are free to destroy what took so long to build. I have welcomed the Good Buyer but Dreaded the bad one. Please remember, There are more honest sellers than the dis-honest one and the same for buyers BUT THE scale has tipped in favor of the buyers and the end for honest sellers in EBAY. Our hands are tied. I am jumping ship before it capsizes as are most of the others honest sellers who have been EBAY members longer than I have. All that will be left in EBAY will be the bad sellers. Take Care and good Luck .You'll need it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: eBay Feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
I recently won an auction on ebay. I had tried contacting the seller to ask a question about the item 4 days BEFORE i bid...no response. I won the auction, and 3 days AFTER, i had STILL RECEIVED no response from the buyer.
So, I left a negative feedback, truly expecting never to hear from the seller again. I left feedback essentially stating that the seller had poor communication.
"
Well no offense joshua, but it's losers like you that do deserve negative feedback. A seller doesn't have to ask a question about the item before you buy it, and you bought it anyways, so obviously you're the moron.
Plus waiting only a few days for a response isn't acceptable before you attack somebody's feedback. You need to give people more time. If you don't get an answer to a question you felt you needed to know, you didn't have to buy the item in the first place. And most sellers just ship the item without telling you, and they aren't required to ship in only 3 days in the first place.
Basically you're one of the small minorities of idiot buyers sellers have to protect themselves from. I hope you keep your dumb ass off of ebay. And you're delusional too thinking ebay is responding to your messages.
Stay away from human society because you're a lunatic.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:losers like you
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Its you that is the trouble maker and you deserved negative feedback
Dont bid on auctions than strat asking questions. THats just stupid and its people liek you who will abuse the new system completely.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Good sellers deserve to have a voice.
I had someone from CHINA leave negative feed back stating: TRADE WITH DIFFERENT PHOTO. What does that even mean?!?!?!
I have had International customers pick the standard air mail choice that we clearly state is un-trackable and sometimes their orders would get lost, and lo and behold no tracking is available. We take the hit and just ship them ANOTHER order, and bam! they slam us with negative feed back.
We have huge huge inventory from different vendors, so yes, rarely, our listings are out of stock and we don't realize until the customer buys. We apologize and offer them the world and they give us negative feed back.
Double ordered something? Oh, that's obviously my fault. Negative feedback.
Never received confirmation of your order being shipped because the email address YOU gave us is old? Thank you for yet another negative feedback.
I am great at customer service, I always do everything for my customers, especially if this company somehow messes up an order. I deserve to be able to tell other struggling sellers if a customer is too difficult to work with.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: What the f***?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: joshua, astonishing
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
hmmm
How come people don't think through these things?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: hmmm
How come people don't think through these things?
You're the one not thinking through things. All anyone would have to do is to check the feedback through a different account.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: hmmm
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: hmmm
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: hmmm
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: hmmm
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: hmmm
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
oi vey
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: oi vey
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: oi vey
I worked for eBay, started not long after this change had been made. It clearly took about a nanosecond for the worst among the buyers to figure out scam procedures to take advantage of it. Keep in mind that your seller account was severely compromised by receiving as many as TWO whole negatives. I was constantly getting calls from people who were being scammed, and tasked with communicating eBay's official policy of "Tough shit." as nicely as possible.
In my mind, I always visualized a top management meeting in which Donahue was pontificating on some "grand principles" level and said something like "Without buyers, there's no money. Without money, there's no business. We need to be buyer-focused." Which is the kind of bland tautology you get from these 7-figure geniuses. But as the vague idea pachinkoed down through upper management, all trying to show they were doing SOMETHING for their own six-figure salaries, it became a brutal anti-seller policy.
As long as the bad actors chose their targets wisely (avoiding our big money sellers), there was fuckall we could do for them. And of course, you'd get disabled people making their living off eBay getting in-yo-face ripped off, long-time, perfect-rating sellers ruined by scammers, etc., It got depressing.
And this was back when the eBay working environment was still trying to push the trappings of a "innovative, fun, tech startup" that valued its' employees. Ugh. I learned: put enough zeroes behind a companies valuation and you get bog-standard corporate management, otherwise known as 'Save on the lube."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Flawed system- valued volume and not revenue
I imagine the level of effort and staffing required to mediate these types of loss-leading transactions make the transaction a substantial loss from eBay's side.
My typical eBay transaction is somewhere around $250.00, which probably isn't typical, but if I go online and buy a $500 unlocked phone, and it doesn't show up, I think others would like to know of this experience before they "Sit down at the table".
Maybe you've seen it: People with 100bazillion feedback points for selling "Junkdrawer Items."
Maybe feedback based first on buyer/seller's ability to resolve themselves, or allow positive/negative feedback if the transaction amount is over a certain amount, say $100?
If the conversation goes on back-and-forth for a while, then the feedback has a higher absolute value when the buyer posts it.
I remember when you could post non-transactional feedback, or pull up a seller's contact information and call them at home. Have things changed...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
There are sellers who say IN THEIR LISTING that if you leave them negative feedback they will AUTOMATICALLY leave it for you; that's ridiculous and there has been no way to fight it.
I'm in the same boat as many others, my negative feedback has been mostly from disgruntled sellers looking for revenge.
A system that allows this is useless and I'm glad they are taking steps to fix it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Don't buy from them.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Second, a computer which said 160G hard drive which was only 80 (He paid for Newegg purchase, but I had to pay $50 to install it).
Third a broken vacuum cleaner, which was not packed, $55 shipping when it cost him $17. Shipping back would have cost me $55 +$17, he would have made money on shipping so finally I had it and I gave bad feedback and he retaliated. My only feedback then was 100% bad and I had done NOTHING wrong.
When I see certain things selling over and over for 3x the value and misrepresented, it makes me wonder if family and friends are buying to keep the price high and pad the good feedback.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
How stupid
Seems easy and fair.. Besides, anyone who takes the feedback seriously without a "grain of salt" is asking for trouble anyway..
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: How stupid
Then all a seller would have to do to prevent negative feedback from a buyer he screwed over from showing up is just to refuse to leave any feedback for that buyer.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: How stupid
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: How stupid
Feedback from one side is not made publicly available until a) the other side also leaves feedback or b) the time period for leaving feedback expires. At that point the feedback is added to the parties' scores and the comments are available for viewing.
Of course, if this were implemented, they would have to look again at the length of time available to leave feedback - what is it now, 90 days? That might be too long under such a system.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: How stupid
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: How stupid
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: How stupid
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Well it's about time
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Well it's about time
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Well it's about time
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Well it's about time
1) chargeback (partly protected, partly not)
2) false claim item not received
3) receiving / treatened by negative
4) item shipped and returned due to unclaimed (lose the postage), buyer take money back with PayPal, and leave you negative because he does not receive the item
5) item shipped and returned due to lost (maybe you can claimed for the money), similar to 4)
6) buyer request seller to pay for buyer's import duty otherwise negative
7) buyer take a used / damaged item and tell you item he received is not working, then return at seller cost and take the money back (otherwise negative) - just imagine if this buyer is local seller who just collect the defective item and use eBay as channel to return and get the money?
8) buyer (who is also seller) use negative or poor feedback to damage other's business - I can see some buyer (who is also a seller) leave more than 50% negative to his seller and this is diluted by 200% positive leave to his buyer to avoid others seeing his is abusing the feedback system.
9) item shipped, buyer claim item is not received, get the PayPal money back, and re-sell this lost item in his eBay store!!!
Buyer risk
1) item slightly not as described? If he use PayPal claim, he lose the shipping...
2) item significantly not as described? nothing lose - eBay protect you
3) fake item? nothing lose - eBay protect you
4) item not received - nothing lose - PayPal / eBay protect you
any? I cannot figure out.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
This is really the best solution?
But what about non-paying buyers? There are lots of them, and as Mike points out, that is a lot of complaints for eBay to take on, including the number of complaints and issues they already have to deal with. It takes effort and money for the seller to list things, so that is equally annoying having the do things twice.
The amount of non paying buyers also could go up if theres a small likeliness of repercussions from doing it.
Like its been mentioned a few times in these comments, not showing each others feedback until both sides have commented seems a better solution. Maybe not perfect, but better than stopping negative feedback.
What is the point of buyer feedback then? If it can only be good, whats the point of giving it?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: This is really the best solution?
When a buyer is reported and confirmed as a non-payer, they receive account strikes, possible suspension and/or account termination.
Riddle me this: Do you think more scams result from bad buyers or bad sellers? This makes perfect sense to me; Although, there can never be a "perfect solution".
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: This is really the best solution?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Not exposing doesn't work
What Ebay really needs is a multi-step feedback process. Once an auction is won both buyer and seller are presented with questions: Did buyer complete payment? Was payment on time? Did item arrive on time? Were all items included? Was item(s) as seller described? Was item well packaged? Was communication required and did buyer/seller respond in a reasonable time? There should also be follow-up questions available later: Did buyer file chargeback? Did item turn out to be fake? etc.
These questions shouldn't be available all at once but timed appropriately. Buyer can't answer item is recieved before seller claims it was sent. Items with shipping costs can't be marked recieved quicker than say 2-3 days after auction ends and so on. Then this series of answers could be used by Ebay support during disputes, be available to viewers of feedback, and even used to "score" the probability of feedback being fair or retaliatory and control whether it is displayed.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Not exposing doesn't work
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
works for me
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Scamming...
Now that there is no protection at all against scamming buyers, and eBay has once again increased fees (calling it a decrease), I no longer sell on eBay. My last listing will expire in a day or so.
I make more money with less work from my own website, with an occasional sale from Blujay.com (which has no fees).
Nothing wrong with eBay that a healthy dose of viable competition wouldn't cure in a heartbeat. I may take a look at Amazon -- unless they buy eBay, in which case all of the grief will simply have a new URL.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Too Little, Too Late!!!
I once used eBay quite a bit and had many good transactions. About half of mine resulted in no feedback whatsoever from the Seller even when I left positive feedback for them.
Once, I too got retaliatory feedback from a seller for a true comment I made in feedback which made me very gunshy. However, the worst was yet to come.
I made a purchase from a Hong Kong seller that went bad. As I tried to work things out with one-on-one email then moving up the chain, eBay ignored the problem and let the problem stand.
I finally posted negative feedback against the seller as I had promised him in my replies and he of course retalitated. The real insult was that he not only posted negative feedback but that he lied and said I had not even contacted him. This was after a month of trying to work it out with him. To make things worst, he moved to extort me to remove my negative against him immediately after he posted the negative against me.
I began to work through the various dispute resolution shell games that eBay has in place that all in all amount to absolutely nothing it a hostile dispute with an unreasonable seller. He would only insist that I remove the negative feedback with no consideration to my issue. eBay did nothing to assist me all the way up the ladder and I finally got to something that wanted me to pay $30 to not get what I was already not getting... resolution.
As a last ditch effort, I disputed the transaction with the credit card company and provided more than 70 pages of documentation of the transaction gone south. The charge was reversed by the end of the day. We were both barred from the payment service for my "abuse" of the system. Interesting.
eBay gets paid by the seller and does not really care about you or your transaction. The feedback system is there to give you a false sense of security that the system is safe, however, eBay stands back and waves its hands when there is a real dispute indicating that they cannot take sides for legal reason.
I did consent to remove the negative feedback to help my feedback score only since it did not matter what the seller had to me at that point. eBay had proven to me that there was absolutely no integrity in the system anyway. I had to sit and watch the seller continue to defraud buyer after buyer and I was totally helpless to help any of them. He moved from Hong Kong to Singapore and it was many months before he was at last banished for whatever reason.
Bad sellers will continue to find ways to ruin it for everyone and eBay will continue to insist they need to make more and more for providing less and less. I have found that eBay's support ends at the cash drawer and you are very much on your own to deal with people you will hopefully never meet in real life. eBay lacks my eTrust!
Thanks for reading...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
how stupid
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Substituted Reality?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Now add guaranteed bids to complete the loop.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Now add guaranteed bids to complete the loop.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
You simpletons don't really see the big picture.
Now since eBay has decided that their buyers are much more important than their sellers, they are happy please them at expense of the seller. What they seem to have forgotten is that the sellers are the ones providing 100 percent of their revenue.
If you really want to understand what is happening, look at these links and see what's happened over the last couple of years:
http://www.powersellersunite.com/auctionsitewatch.php
http://www.medved.net/cgi-bin/cal .exe?EIND
Now don't be surprised that the number of listings on eBay is skyrocketing right now. Many sellers are quickly dumping their inventories before the seller strike planned Feb. 18-25. and are claiming (at least) that they are shutting down for good. Check it out on ebay forums seller central if you don't believe me.
It appears that eBay's management has a new direction in mind and they think they can drive everyone off the cliff with them. They are wrong.
I like many others are seriously pushing our wares at:
http://ecrater.com
There are almost a million listings on that site and this free store front feeds straight into google base and google products. It also seamlessly integrates google checkout for credit cards. When people figure out how to search google products more efficiently, eBay will locked into it's death spiral.
This is a development that is not only healthy, but necessary to level the online marketplace playing field over the long term.
For companies like M$ that say they want to master search, what they need to do is master product search and it will be as if they own amazon, ebay, bidville, ecrater and every other podunk e-commerce site on the net.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
There is a bigger picture to be seen
Now since eBay has decided that their buyers are much more important than their sellers, they are happy please them at expense of the seller. What they seem to have forgotten is that the sellers are the ones providing 100 percent of their revenue.
If you really want to understand what is happening, look at these links and see what's happened over the last couple of years:
www.powersellersunite.com/auctionsitewatch.php
www.medved.net/cgi-bin/cal.exe?EIND
N ow don't be surprised that the number of listings on eBay is skyrocketing right now. Many sellers are quickly dumping their inventories before the seller strike planned Feb. 18-25. and are claiming (at least) that they are shutting down for good. Check it out on ebay forums seller central if you don't believe me.
It appears that eBay's management has a new direction in mind and they think they can drive everyone off the cliff with them. They are wrong.
I like many others are seriously pushing our wares at:
ecrater.com
There are almost a million listings on that site and this free store front feeds straight into google base and google products. It also seamlessly integrates google checkout for credit cards. When people figure out how to search google products more efficiently, eBay will locked into it's death spiral.
This is a development that is not only healthy, but necessary to level the online marketplace playing field over the long term.
For companies like M$ that say they want to master search, what they need to do is master product search and it will be as if they own amazon, ebay, bidville, ecrater and every other podunk e-commerce site on the net.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
It's not a good thing...
I see a total collapse to this Ebay... They are a company that is driven by greed...
They have changed the feedback policy so that the buyer is the only one who can leave a negative comment to the seller... This gives the buyer the edge and gives him the ammunition they need to hold over a sellers head to get them to reduce shipping charges, or say they receive an item they don't care for and want a refund, they can request that the seller refund and if they refuse, then leave negative feedback...
When a sellers feedback score goes down (as Ebay is counting on) then the sellers FEES GO UP!! This will encourage all kinds of crooks to bid and then not pay, with no recourse what so ever for the Seller...
The fees were already too high from the hike they added last year, but this whole new system takes the cake...
It's unbelieveable... Then they tried to sell it to the ebayers as a "bonus for them" Ha... LOL... What a joke...
Many stores are already going out of business on there and there will be a strike by sellers from& nbsp; (Feb. 18-24)... As an ebay store owner and also a purchaser myself, I will join in the effort to have the "powers that be" listen to us... We are all searching for another venue to place our goods where everyone is treated fairly... I have been a registered ebay member since 1981 and have enjoyed both being a buyer and a seller... It's not a good experience anymore...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: It's not a good thing...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay Bans Negative Feedback For Buyers; Everyone B
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: eBay Bans Negative Feedback For Buyers; Everyone B
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
e-Fencing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fence_(criminal)
At one company, there was a problem with people selling SIM cards on eBay. When eBay was contacted, they essentially told us to go away.
Eventually, one of my colleagues started bidding and buying the SIM cards, and that's when the heads starting rolling... Because the best run companies run SAP, the ability existed to track serial numbers back to a customer and a transaction. (Helps to have a great BI system, you-know-who you are).
So last year, I saw a CNBC program on this same problem we had, and it brought back memories. I felt somewhat disappointed that eBay gave them the same cold shoulder.
What eventually happened? Well, a consortium of retailers decided to pursue it through legislation action.
Who was the winner? Not the customer of established Brick-and-mortar retail (who has to pay higher retail prices to cover shrink costs), the buyer (who is receiving stolen property) or eBay (who could have assisted, but will now is looking at having to comply with new legislation.)
So when the lawyers get involved, it gets exponentially more difficult.
http://www.lpinformation.com/Default.aspx?tabid=70&forumid=1&postid=10113& view=topic
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Neutral Feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay blows now - go to Amazon
So the solution is to screw the very consumer that put eBay on the map to begin with.
Without negative feedback to the buyer, sellers are screwed. If you people think that "instant retaliation" is what sellers do just because they got a negative, just wait until you see negatives running rampant because sellers can do NOTHING to protect themselves.
As a buyer (sometimes seller) on eBay, I take a look at the feedback of negatives. I can very easily spot those that are legit and those that are based on stupid people who don't have a clue.
Many sellers often do this as well. If a buyer places a bid on their item, they'll research the feedback and will quickly dismiss "seller retaliation" replies.
Now that eBay claims to be "in the middle" of disputes, sellers are going to have no choice but leave eBay for another option because eBay is absolutely WORTHLESS in disputes, and when they do get in, often side with the buyer.
eBay is in serious need of restoration. Buyers failing to pay and sellers screwing over people with extortion-style shipping and handling.
Oh yeah, now I remember why I no longer visit eBay and have returned to Amazon.com.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Couple of comments
Second, sure, there are a lot of crooks in eBay. There are also scams to run up positive feedback (nobody buys 500 items from an account set up a month ago, until you look and see they are all for a penny and to the same couple of sellers). I think this is a step in the right direction. Another way to accomplish it would be to require the seller to leave feedback as soon as the payment clears (e.g. right away for Paypal payments).
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Couple of comments
Second, sure, there are a lot of crooks in eBay. There are also scams to run up positive feedback (nobody buys 500 items from an account set up a month ago, until you look and see they are all for a penny and to the same couple of sellers). I think this is a step in the right direction. Another way to accomplish it would be to require the seller to leave feedback as soon as the payment clears (e.g. right away for Paypal payments).
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What was the point before?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: What was the point before?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: What was the point before?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
It impacts buyers too - not just sellers. Now some nitwit can bid on items and not buy, or whatever they may think up - with a high potential of impacting other buyers.
But... Is the idea that you don't *sell* to a buyer with low feedback?
I could go bid on items I can't afford, or just refuse to pay. If I didn't like a seller, for whatever reason, I could go jacking up the price of all his auctions... etc, etc.. I'm sure there are many ways to muck up things. The buyer having to stick to his commitment is as much a part of eBay as the buyer's sticking to their commitment. It's a two way street.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay fees and feedback changes
As for the feedback changes, they are the death knell for eBay as far as this 10 year veteran is concerned. I am one of the small old timer sellers who specializes in the cool, unique, collectible, hard to find stuff, and I will be out of here in short order.
I've been hearing more and more reports of buyers leaving neutral or negative feedbacks for sellers or threatening to do so. Same people are shocked when the feedback they leave is reciprocated by the seller. Apparently many people think the feedback policy change is already in effect and don't realize it won't be until May. Then they threaten to report the seller to eBay because "seller's aren't allowed to leave neutrals or negatives anymore".
2/3's of my activity is as a buyer. I have never withheld feedback from a seller after I got the goods and was pleased with it. I have never threatened a buyer with a negative when they had an issue. I have always accepted returns from anyone dissatisfied. However the unspoken threat of receiving a possible bad feedback has probably held some nuisance buyers in check.
I truly believe that most people are good, honest folks who just want to buy or sell a widget. However there is that annoying small percentage of both buyers and sellers who can make your life miserable.
I keep track of my auction stats so I know this much. I have about a 4% NPB rate. Overall on eBay is 10%. In addition I have about a 2% PITA buyer rate, folks who cannot be pleased no matter how hard you try, or don't read or understand the auction description, or want to change my TOS, or renegotiate shipping costs post auction end etc. Only their reluctance to receive a negative has kept those people in check.
I figure anyone who sells on eBay in the future will be receiving negatives on a minimum of 6% of their transactions. In addition, if the seller doesn't immediately leave positive feedback for their buyers as soon as they pay, those sellers can expect to get negged by a lot of buyers for that as well. If the seller files NPB against a slow paying buyer they can expect a neg too. yet eBay is encouraging sellers to file such complaints.
Up until now anything less than a 98% positive feedback rating was considered pretty sketchy. What will the new "good seller" percentage be? I am betting it will fall to around 90%. How comfortable will that make buyers about shopping on eBay?
I really think eBay did not fully think through all the ramifications of these feedback changes. I do not see it as being positive for either individual sellers or for eBay as a whole.
So 60 days prior to the May change in policy is my cut off for selling on eBay. I don't feel comfortable selling in an environment where I can be unfairly chastised with a negative feedback without having much recourse. I've worked too hard with excellent customer service to achieve my 10 year good feedback record to allow any passing newby to chuck a rock at it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
the solution is easy...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: the solution is easy...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: It's not a good thing...
Without negative feedback to the buyer, sellers are screwed.
Sellers have been holding feedback over buyer's heads for years. They refuse to leave feedback until they get it, despite the fact that they must receive payment before sending an item. Why is the onus placed on the buyer to leave feedback first, when he's sent money first? I think the seller should be forced to leave a comment first, and before a buyer can post negative, there has to be proof of communication in an attempt to resolve the issue. This might require customer service and human review though, and we all know eBay is just terrible at that stuff.
I remember a while back there used to be the option to put a followup comment to the original comment...what happened to that? That's the perfect way to say "This guy doesn't leave any feedback."
I have been a registered ebay member since 1981
What
As a buyer, I do not recommend Amazon for non-new items. I've tried it twice and been burned twice.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: It's not a good thing...
Why?
Because the transaction is not completed when you are paid. There is the possibility that your funds get tied up in PayPal due to some erroneous complaint, that you get scammed with a fake check, that any number of things go wrong after being paid.
When the buyer posts positive feedback, you are then able to say that it was a successful transaction.
Sellers take all the hits on fees, etc. - they should control the feedback process.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Negative Positive Feedback
Give the person their green star positive rating, but then in the text write:
** BEWARE THIS BUYER DID NOT PAY **
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Negative Positive Feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
And waited. And waited. And waited. 8 business days later and I don't have my screen and I have received zero communication from the seller. I send off an e-mail via the "ask seller a question" link and finally get a response that he accidentally "scratched" the filter while packing it and was going to refund my money. I wrote back and said that was fine, but it would have been nice to know that a week ago so I could have looked at other auctions. I left neutral feedback stating that "Seller had 0 communication. Broke item before shipping - all money refunded." which in my opinion is more than fair.
His response was to post negative feedback about me (and this is a cut and paste quote) "Refunded money to avoid problem later, Sellers beaware!!, selfish person."
That's right, I'm selfish because I wanted the product I paid for and I wasn't willing to wait any longer than 8 business days before contacting him... beaware!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I don't sell on eBay anymore.
Amazon will cover your shipping costs via credit, offers a protection policy, and basically looks after both buyer and seller.
Sure they take a cut - but you have more protection in the process.
eBay is run like a cartel. They have set up a system where buyers can claim they didn't get an item, trash you with negative feedback if you report them to eBay, and eBay offers no recourse outside of a '3 strike' rule against buyers to kick them off eBay, where they promptly sign up again.
Screw that noise.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
This is a good thing
Also, sellers are somewhat protected from bad buyers - THEY DON'T SHIP THE ITEM UNTIL THEY RECEIVE THE PAYMENT. The only exposer the seller is subjected to is an irrational buyer that leaves negative feedback even though the item was good quality, as described, and shipped promptly. The folks at eBay should be able to identify these irrational buyers based on some automated algorithms that look at the amount of negative feedback left by a buyer as a fraction of their overall volume of feedback, and also by looking at the number of times the buyer leaves negative feedback for a seller that has otherwise received overwhelmingly positive feedback.
Thanks eBay!!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I've been there
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Just like any other seller...
News flash: The buyers are your customers. Talk bad about your customers, lose business. I'm pretty sure this is Business 101 stuff here.
If anything, I agree that the system should automatically apply some rating/listing to indicate how quickly the buyer posted payment, maybe an average would suffice. That's really the only job of the buyer.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
News Flash
When I sell something on eBay, I pay a listing fee, I pay fees for whatever features, I pay a final transaction fee, and I pay a cut to PayPal if the buyer pays through that route.
eBay's policies leave me virtually unprotected *except* for the ability to leave feedback to a purchaser.
I've never gotten bad feedback as a buyer or seller. I've never left bad feedback as a seller - but I have as a buyer.
Ultimately if eBay had the same protection guarantees if a buyer is a deadbeat and scams you out of money - I'd be fine with not being able to leave feedback.
However, I no longer sell on eBay because of that.
"Power Sellers", i.e. real businesses can still afford to.
Borrowers/Sellers who leave frivolous feedback are a problem, but that problem was manageable because they could both leave feedback.
If scammed by a borrower - I could post on his profile "SENT FRAUDULENT CHECK/BEWARE" and this protected other sellers.
How is this any different than a business posting signs of someone caught shoplifting, etc. to other businesses?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: News Flash
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: News Flash
I spend $3 of my money listing a $10 item.
Buyer wins auction at $8.
Buyer decides he doesn't want item.
Buyer doesn't pay.
I just lost $3.
I leave negative feedback: "Buyer did not pay, refuses to respond to emails."
Other sellers then vet the buyer prior to allowing them to bid. Buyer can't get on some auctions he wants to get on because of the number of sellers complaining about not getting paid.
Free Market FTW.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: News Flash
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: News Flash
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: News Flash
You think retail stores don't pay to list things for sale? Come on... please think about your responses, folks.
Personally, I mostly stopped dealing with eBay when PayPal use became such an issue with them. Too much inbreeding. I'll only resort to eBay in the most dire of situations now, as a buyer or seller.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Stop focusing on JUST feedback, it's the least of
They want the small/sporadic sellers (even smaller Power Sellers) gone - no more garage-sale-in-the-sky.
The eBayPal monopoly (and it is one - if not by legal statutes then certainly by the constraints they have and are soon imposing) has been moving in this direction since eBay bought PayPal ... remember when it was X.com and didn't charge?
It's all about the bottom line, the community aspect has been slowly moved out from around us and people are looking around and realizing only the barest trappings are there.
Feedback is the least of the issues change-wise; it's mainly a smokescreen in that people are focusing their enraged emotions on it ... the real issues are the fee increases (http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/pages/feecalc), the fact that small sellers will be pushed lower in search results, and the whole escrow issue with eBayPal transactions that have been deemed risky*
This last issue is where the FB change comes into play as more than a smokescreen; your DSR (star) ratings will have a bigger impact now - they will soon show only the last month's ratings ... the lower your ratings (or none if you haven't sold in over a month) the more at risk you are to have your payment funds as a seller held in escrow - however, you still need to ship the item and will have nearly zero recourse if buyer claims not to have rec'd. Many are already questioning the legality of this as eBay owns PayPal and forced escrow is only supposed to be held by a neutral party.
The sad thing is, a lot of small sellers - good & honest people whose eBay sales are their income - are already getting threatened with negative feedback by "buyers" with an agenda. The agenda is either one of stupidity (thinking that already sellers cannot leave even valid non-pos FB in return) or one based on terror; telling sellers that come May they are going to use their several IDs to neg them until their star-ratings are so low they're thrown off of eBay entirely.
How is that right???
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Stop focusing on JUST feedback, it's the least
I am a honest seller that bends over backwards to please my customers and to keep a 99.6% feedback score. (The 4% I lost to negative feedback, Non-paying Jerks)
If EBAY doesn't want me, fine. I've already closed my store and my auctions end this weekend. If the honest sellers are leaving than all thats left are the bad ones. They'll get what they deserve. So will GreedBay!!I've supported them long enough. The ship is going down, better jump before it sinks!!!Take Care and Good Luck !!!SDB
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
If it's broke, break it some more
While there are lots of completely honest buyers and sellers, the 3-5% of users who are either scammers, or just PITA(buyers and sellers) brings the entire site down. Their system is broken, and has been for a while. Now under the guise of "fixing" the issues they are actually making things worse.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Some sellers game the system
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
some buyers aren't nice either
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
If ebay is cracking down on leaving negative feedback he & others like him are the reason.
Slackers that ignore you untill you leave a negative and then they lie, slander etc to try to get you to mutual withdraw. The comments stay so why give them what THEY want?
http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=+tauntonmassmaninhouston&Dirn=Left+by&ref=home
Google ANY of his names and those stories come up.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
and the Arbitration system blows chunks
If craigslist would establish some kind of credentialing between individuals, eBay would go away pretty fast. Forehead SMACK!! THAT's why eBay bought craigslist-- to make sure that craiglsit transactions stay anon so they will always come with 10 flakes for every done deal.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: and the Arbitration system blows chunks
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebay feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
But at as a seller, I cant express to you the frustration with buyers that just dont take the process seriously, I am not a retail store, nore to I have unlimited time and resources, I am a guy that is selling on the side for a small business or maybe liquidating personal belongings, I dont have the time nore the energy to deal with people who dont pay, or buy the item and then tell you, ummm you know what, I dont really want the item anymore, or umm could you lower the shipping. 1 out of 7 is this type of buyer. And they cause me the most stress, and i am sure other sellers as well. Ebay has not address the problem with unpaid items and the feedback associated with it. I think a seller has the right just as the buyer to rate the other party, if someone doesnt act within reason or just doesnt care, its not worth risking a retalitory feedback. What should happen is there should be a 3rd party ensuring the claims made by one side or the other.
I as a seller would pay 1 or 2 % insurance to protect myself and my feedback reputation from people who act in a harmful manner.
As a seller, I just wanna sell, and make money. Free Market Forces will dictate who will survive as a seller and who wont. All I ask for is a fair level playing ground and that everyone follow the rules and be held accountable for not.
BUYERS AND SELLERS
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
How can sellers block bad buyers?
Let's see what happens when all the feedback I leave is negative.
With the old system, If I had left 100 negs, I'd get 100 negs.
Now I can leave 100 negs and still have 100 positive feedback.
I will complain about everything.
Box was dirty.
Color is light purple; looked dark purple in picture.
This is going to be fun!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: How can sellers block bad buyers?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: How can sellers block bad buyers?
Let's Go and F*Ck some Sh*T up!!!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: How can sellers block bad buyers?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: How can sellers block bad buyers?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
this is retarded.
*selling something they do not have.
*selling something that suck, not as advertised, etc.
*slow shipping.
****if eBay make these changes about feedback..
it will make the market better in some ways.
how? sellers will be forced to not sell something they do not have etc.. better competition and high profit selling popular stuff for people that do have the popular product.
manufacturers will profit this as well sellers will give better pricing to get the stuff to sell.
shipping will be changed to all sellers. which means sellers will not make money off of shipping anymore because they pay the actual shipping cost that they advertised.
the bad =[
Douchebag customers that think this is a RETAIL STORE will now leave bad rating at literally ANYTHING. 1 day late in shipping, BAD FEEDBACK. prado and advertised as prado buyer thingks its prada BAD FEEDBACK. buyer paid for shipping as advertised but then complains that its too much BAD FEEDBACK (why the hell did u buy it then?) now. its a snowball effect. one person leaves a bad feedback, and another, and another, and another, and another... next thing you know the seller hits 5% bad feedback. bye bye to you power sellers.
what ever happened over 2 years ago where feedback mattered? where people work on getting good ratings and so does the sellers. you have to look at it this way, a power seller will not be a power seller if they are not doing something right.
BACKORDER IS INEVITABLE
SHIPPING CARRIERS LAZY F*K FACES IS INEVITABLE
RETARDED BUYERS IS INEVITABLE
....OR, i may just be talking out of my a**
..lol @ j brown's comment. pay for $1 item and be god amirite?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Change for the worst
Ebay stresses in their FAQ that both parties should wait until the transaction is complete. Everyone assumes the "buyer" portion of the transaction ends with payment. It does not. How many times have sellers had buyers not pick up packages that show as delivered or request USPS only to then never be there when the postal services goes to deliver? The transaction isn't over until after the buyer acknowledges receipt of the goods and or problems are dealt with to that end.
Rather than deal with the real problem which is eliminating both bad buyers and sellers - which would hurt their bottom line they are just putting lipstick on the pig by covering it all up.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I agree
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
new ebay feedback policy
Note: I've been an Ebay member since 11-2004 and I have NEVER,EVER,EVER renigged on a purchase!! I get screwed by Ebay buyers at least once a day and I'VE HAD IT!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay Fee Changes
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay anti-seller tactics
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebay self inflicting wounds
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
WANT TO GET FREE STUFF OFF EBAY? HERE’S HOW:
WANT TO GET FREE STUFF OFF EBAY? HERE’S HOW:
Buy using PayPal. Then, after you have received the item, file a claim with PayPal and use these magic words: ''NOT AS DESCRIBED.'' PayPal will immediately HOLD the money in the seller’s account--just for you. Next, send back an empty box, for proof of return of course. After that’s done, PayPal will instantly give the buyer their money back, every time. My friends and I have claimed thousands of dollars in free stuff off eBay this way.
Also, ''NOT AS DESCRIBED'' works in cases of buyer’s remorse. It doesn’t matter if the seller's item is described accurately, or even if the seller has a “no return” policy. PayPal is so stupid, they will refund your money back again, and again, and again. You won’t believe how easy it is. Thank you PayPal; you are a Pay Pal.
This is not a joke. If you don’t believe me, try it one time, you’ll see.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: WANT TO GET FREE STUFF OFF EBAY? HEREâ�
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Done with Ebay
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Newsflash - Some Buyers are Just Jerks.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ayn Rand would be rolling in her Grave!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Not fair for honest sellers
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Feedback
To top this off he sends me 15 count em yes 15 hate emails using eBays forwarding system. Of course I report them to eBay calling me everything from a crook, thief, crackhead you name it! What does eBay do? Issues a warning big deal!
If he lived in CA I could have had him arrested for cyberstalking against the law here!
So now you cannot leave a negative and these hyped up morons can leave any seller a negative that they want to with no repercussions! Nice! Well I have left eBay for another site but the sales there suck. In fact so far no sales! No traffic equals no sales! So now I am thinking of just melting the suckers and taking the profit out of that when silver goes through the roof again!
Selloff in silver and gold was bank inspired as they had to cover their shorts. Major banks are losing billions course the government will bail them out with our money!
Thanks and remember eBay sucks!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Feedback,silverthefox not so nice
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Sensitive sellers should remember this is business
1) Ebay is right that buyers soften their comments or just skip the feedback process because of a desire to not be slammed by ego-tripping, or ridiculously sensitive sellers.
2) An "open marketplace" should be open. Sellers ghettoize new buyers through negative feedback that is sometimes based on petty concerns and bitterness.
3) Ebay makes money from Sellers, so of course they must protect their interests to some degree and if they do not they shoot themselves in the foot. Do the math.
4) I have bought items from sellers who have engaged in mail fraud, smeared my character without cause and lied repeatedly about events surrounding several transactions.
5) Buyers have very little space to defend themselves against the lies of bullying, angry sellers.
6) Removing the negative feedback option, encourages sellers to focus on making the Ebay experience of a vast number of private buyers positive and insult-free.
7) Ebay sellers need to remember that when they go to their corner store and buy something, no one gets to publicly lambaste them. They do not hang a sign in their window, saying that customer X is a thief and a liar. If this was the case, who would want to walk into that store?
Yes there are buyers who are running scams. There is a term in business called "shrinkage". Sometimes no matter how much you safeguard yourself, you will come out at the wrong end of a deal. This happens VERY little on Ebay.
8) Buyers make a leap of faith when buying on Ebay. Their money goes somewhere and then they wait for a seller to do the right thing.
9) Sellers set terms in their listings. Protect yourself with better store POLICY.Don't whine for hours about the naughty buyers - come on!
10) Sellers who are tempted to use the Ebay platform to reverse the old adage "the customer is always right". Should remember that the customer is not always pleasant, fair, or honest, but they are necessary. If you don't like your market, find another one.
Thanks and good luck to all!
Jacko
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Sellers will NOT be leaving ANY Feedback at all now; what's to be gained?
The sellers do not leave immediate fb ; why? BECAUSE BUYERS CAN RETALIATE. . THE ITEM IS NOT DELIVERED AND THE BUYER SATISFIED JUST BECAUSE THE BUYER PAID JERKS!!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: by Ray on Apr 7th, 2008 @ 5:44pm
Good people taught him his lesson.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
RE: STRIKE AGAINST EBAY
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: RE: STRIKE AGAINST EBAY by Jay
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
I left the following Neutral Comment after receiving a refund:
Sold an out of stock item, however gave an immediate full refund.
Reply by seller:
Didn't sell an out of stock item, you misunderstood
Follup by me:
"your order will be shipped as soon as the item is back in stock" = out of stock
Then I received the following Negative:
Thanks for your patience and understanding
Reply by me:
Seller sold an out of stock item. I paid,refunded. Seller mad over neutral feedback.
There are good and bad things about this change. Usually bad sellers/buyers don't last long. By the new eBay policy, once this seller is ousted from the community, the negative will be removed. Honestly I think that is all that is needed. Also, blatantly retaliatory negative feedback should be against eBay policy. My case is pretty blatant.
This benefits me as a buyer, but it is also no good to me as a seller. I've had some CRAPPY buyers, and I've only sold about 25 items on Ebay. Why should I have to receive a negative comment without being able to state that this guy waited 15 days to paying me for the item and didn't contact me before the 15 days?
Additionally, crappy buyers don't last long either. All of the buyers/sellers I've had problems with have eventually had to cancel their accounts.
In 40 purchases I've only left 2 Negative and 2 Neutral comments. In 25 sales, I've only had 1 non-payer, and 1 late payer. All of these people are now off of eBay.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
How are you going to even have buyers, if all the sellers get blackmailed by these precious sellers, and leave ebay??
if you don't have any sellers, the buyers are non existent and useless.
You should REally be sticking up for your SELLERS..since THEY are the ones that pay you more than the buyers....hence the listing fees, FVF, and Pay pal fees....are you SERIOUSLY choosing your buyers over your sellers??? You're crazy!! SO MANY SELLERS are going to leave you..this is their LAST straw with all your games!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Selling & Buying
I think the people in the Ivory Tower have gotten so far away from what it's like in the eBay trenches, that perhaps we're all better off just attending our local live auctions again.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Buyer Feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Buyer Feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Unfair to sellers
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Feedback Now an eBay JOKE!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Who needs sellers anyway!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay feedback
Its crazy that seller's can not leave neg. feedback. It makes me feel very unprotected as a seller.
The slow payers issue deserves a special category....as that seems to be the biggest obstacle as a seller but there are also the times when buyers can be petulant and take out their frustrations on sellers. I had one person after many emails back and forth re: a well packed but non the less broken in transit object finally tell me she had anger issues!!! And another international buyer insisting that I was making money on international shipping and letting domestic buyers skate...and this was way before our postal rate increases. I finally had to tell her that we could trade negative feedback or just let the matter drop. She ended up leaving positive feedback as did I.
I guess the feedback system has gotten kind of smarmy. Haha
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay neagtives. How to stop it.
Everyone should leave everyone negative feedback. This is the only way to make ebay smarten up or go bust.
Ebay! You better be listening to this. It will be contagious!!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Sellers Are Getting Ripped By Ebay New Rules!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I'm Finished with Ebay
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebays negative feedback
Not only are sellers not allowed to leave negative feedback, but all neutral feedback is now being used as a minus 1 deduction to the seller's feedback, interesting!
Maybe ebay should rewrite the dictionary as well
Neutral means neither for or against.
Ebay says it means against.
What happened to freedom here?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebays negative feedback
Not only are sellers not allowed to leave negative feedback, but all neutral feedback is now being used as a minus 1 deduction to the seller's feedback, interesting!
Maybe ebay should rewrite the dictionary as well
Neutral means neither for or against.
Ebay says it means against.
What happened to freedom here?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Its all about the cash
Bottom line is that eBay has found a new way to make more money and increase their bottom line. It is all about the cash, not yours but theirs!!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
no feedback for buyers
FTC
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Change is Always good
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
this is not good...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
feedback
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=calvin5167&ftab=Feedba ckLeftForOthers
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: feedback
What is the seller supposed to do? Send the item with milk & cookies?
I have been selling on eBay for over 3 years and in that time I've never had a non-paying buyer or problem that couldn't be resolved.
In the past two months, I've listed 6 items, and 2 of them have gone unpaid, both from buyers with 0 feedback, and I can't do anything about it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Needs more work
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
My 2 Cents
I am a Store seller on Ebay for about 5 years now. I have had 100% feedback and strived to insure that I made people happy to keep it that way even when I knew that at times they were most likely ripping me off. But now with this new FB system. It is the last straw. I hate to leave Ebay but the system no longer works fairly. You always will have good and Bad sellers and Buyers. But now the buyer has an open door policy to loot the store.
1) The sale is not complete until the buyer receives of the item ! So automatically leaving feedback to the buyer after receiving payment is nuts. DOES THE BUYER FEEL THE SALE IS COMPLETE AFTER PAYING FOR THE ITEM BEFORE RECEIVING IT?
2) What use is it to set your Ebay Filter to screen prospective buyers with Negatives if the Buyer can only get a positive rating? All buyers are good now. Bad buyers look the same as good buyers.
3) Now they are charging extra to let you access the international market. 10 cents Uk etc.per product.
So now we are members of Ebay National and it costs more to be part of Ebay International.
4)Ebay stopped download products. Yes I know there were a lot of people selling 1 cent items to get their rating up. So Ebay says they had to stop download sales to stop this. Well that is not entirely true ! They could have just raised the download Min $ for purchase and that would have stopped it. If someone would be willing to buy about 1000 different downloads at $3.00 ea just to get the red star, I think they deserve it. LOL
If Ebays intentions was to stop pirated stuff being download, that makes no sense either. Pirated stuff can be copied on disk.
5) The fees have gone through the roof. Between Ebay, Paypal and the new postal fees, if you are not selling bigger ticket items, it is hard to make any money. Especially since the scammers now have a season open sign posted by the field.
I agree with someone above. Ebay is tired of the smaller sellers. I think they are trying to cut back the sellers to big sellers. The ones that make them the big bucks. Less people to deal with and people who can afford to take a loss on a deal if needed.
Ebay is no longer the philosophical "60's Liberal Commune Marketplace" any more. It is growing up and leaving all that behind to be more like a Ted Turner or a George Soros.
Money and Greed seems to change the greatest of "Liberal Free the People Ideas". And the little guys get left behind when the money takes over.LOL
Green is Just plain Mean.
Well all that was more like a quarters worth.
I am closing down my Ebay account this month. Had it because there is more to come down the road. And it only is getting worse for the seller.
Anyone know of any great sites that help you sell your products like Ebay or similar, I would greatly appreciate the leads.
Best of luck to all of you. And lets hope something better comes along to replace Ebay !
Thirsty Rock
Phx,AZ
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Free Ebay Stuff
This new Ebay policy is ridicules. It encourages the thieves to steal. I can now order items off ebay, pay through paypal, receive the item and then demand my money back. Then all I have to do is file a complaint with paypal and get my money back, keep the item and give the seller negative feedback. Not a thing the seller can do about it.
I agree, its about money for Ebay. I dont think they care about fair practices. So the only way to get Ebay to change its policy is for enough sellers to dump Ebay. My mission now is to spread the word on how to hose the sellers. Once enough of them get burned, they will leave Ebay. Sellers watch out! We are coming!
P.S. Thanks for the free stuff!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
A set of Rules for the Buyer before purchase
Though not a catch all, it does provide a little more for allowing me to set the rules for the purchase. It helps me screen in a small way who I allow to shop in my store and the rules while they are there:
Here it is;
***** SELLER RESEARVES THE RIGHT *****
SELLER RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REVIEW BUYERS FEEDBACK AND IF SELLER WISHES TO CANCEL THIS SALE WILL DO SO AT SELLERS DESCRETION. WE WILL READ ALL YOUR FEEDBACK COMMENTS AS FAR BACK AS WE WISH. IF WE DECIDE NOT TO PURSUE THIS TRANSACTION WITH YOU, YOU AGREE THE CANCELLATION OF THE TRANSACTION WILL BE CONSIDERED A MUTUAL WITHDRAWAL WITH NO NEGATIVE, NUETRAL OR POSITIVE FEEDBACK LEFT BY EITHER PARTY.THE BUYERS MONEY WILL BE REFUNDED IN FULL BY SELLER. THE TOTAL AMOUNT WILL BE THAT PAID BY BUYER ON PURCHASE INCLUDING SHIPPING. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ACCEPT THIS AGREEMENT PRIOR TO PURCHASE ONCE YOU PURCHASE THIS ITEM. IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS WHETHER YOUR PURCHASE MAY BE REJECTED, EMAIL US FIRST BEFORE BUYING!
NOTE: MOST BUYERS ARE HONEST, BUT WITH THE NEW EBAY POLICY ON FEEDBACK, WE HAVE TO SCREEN EACH BUYER INDIVIDUALLY TO INSURE THAT YOU ARE A REASONABLE BUYER AND NOT A SCAMMER. PLEASE DO NOT BE INSULTED WITH THIS CHECK BY US. IF YOU ARE NOT SCAMMING AND LEAVING NEGATIVE FEEDBACK, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.
YOU ARE AGREEING TO THE SELLER MAKING A DECISION ON YOUR PRIOR HISTORY WITH OTHER SELLERS ON WHETHER TO DO BUSINESS WITH YOU.
DO NOT LET THIS SCARE YOU AWAY FROM BUYING!
BY KEEPING THE POSSIBLE BAD BUYERS FROM BUYING, WE CAN KEEP THE PRICES LOW.
If your Purchase is declined and your money refunded:
We are not saying you are a bad buyer for declining to accept your purchase. We have reviewed you feedback and at our discretion have decided that there may be too much risk involved following through on the transaction ****
You agree that we do not need to explain why we arrived at this decision...
99% of Buyers are accepted on the average. You are most likely one of them!
Communication:
If you feel you have a problem with the item after receiving it, you agree to contact the seller immediately though Ebay upon receipt of the item prior to leaving feedback. You agree to first try to resolve the matter with the seller.
Item as described:
If you have questions about a product, ask before purchasing. Do not assume anything! We make every effort to describe the item the best we can. But everyone looks for different things. So ask if you do not know.
Shipping Time:
We make every attempt to mail your product to you in 24 Hrs. Excluding weekends when the Postal office is closed and Holidays You will see the date shipped to you printed on your mailing label. We are not responsible if USPS takes longer then normal to deliver your item.
Example, first class mail in the United States normally takes a maximum of 3 days. If we shipped in 24 hours of your purchase (noted on label) and it took 7 days to get, that is the Post offices fault and you should not give us Bad feedback because we do not own the Post office or have control over your package once they have it. The important thing for you is to read the date the post office received it printed on your shipping label. You are rating us on getting the package out the door, not rating the Post Office in Feedback!
Shipping and Handling Charges:
If you feel the shipping is to high on this item, do not buy it.
Or buy more than one item and get a discount on shipping.
(Only Selected items receive a discount, read the page near shipping of the item you are reviewing to see it says a discount applies).
Every purchase you make on Ebay is a combined Price + Shipping = Total Amount for product.
So feel free to compare which gives you the best price for the product first and that you agree to.
Note: We do not pay or collect any VAT TAXES. If you feel you are subject to any VAT taxes in your country,
please contact your local Postal Office and find out before buying.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
List Disputes Opend Against Buyer or Seller
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
No Incentive for Seller
Think of it this way!
Example: A buyer buys from you, is not happy with product and wants a full refund. So you say, ship the item back to me and I will give a full refund as per the return policy in your Ebay page ad. They (the buyer) says they do not want to pay the costs to ship back. So you out of the goodness of your heart pay for the shipping and once you receive it, give the buyer all his money back.
What did you get out of it?
You ended up paying for shipping to get it back and do you think you are going to get good feedback?
NOT! So why waste the money. The buyer will say it was not as described or something.
Fight to keep the money and not throw away the extra shipping costs on your part. You are going to get bad feedback anyways most likely.
BY the way, you have to remember that some people sell the same item for years. And have always received 100% good feedback on it. Not that everyone will like it, but makes you question the intent of the individual who says not as described. Why did they not ask questions before purchasing? Did they not see what everyone else was saying in your feedback?
What fool out of the goodness of his heart would bend over and let someone destroy you and your family business over $10.00. Because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO? The right thing to do is not let the crook steal food out of your families mouth, that is the right thing to do.Fight em to the end. If you lose, it still is the same. You give em back their money, they leave you bad feedback and they may even keep the product. LOL
Gotta love disarming the seller and say play fair.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay Disclaimer Above by Thirsty Rock
The only way I know how to get a ruff idea of the buyer is after they purchase, look at feedback left for other sellers.
But if you are not allowed to base your sell on whether to deal with them after they purchase on their prior feedback to other sellers, you have no way to protect yourself. You have to wait to be burned than add to the block list of those you do not want to have buy from you. Like they really plan to come back and try and burn you again! LOL
And the buyer is not rated like the Seller. Why is this?
Oh ya, cause they have the money. So they must honest and fair. LOL
Why does the buyers feedback box at the top of their feedback page even show the negative count?
Does not apply anymore and is misleading now. You see positive but no negative unless they have had problems with selling something themselves. So maybe it ought to say Negatives left for others ! And Negatives received by others for selling.So depending on your business with them, you get a better idea if they are a good buyer and a bad seller, or a bad buyer and a good seller or just bad all over.
Ebay does not want it to be that complex, but once you start screwing with the meaning of the feedback chart on the top of the feedback page, ya have to change the chart folks.
The chart means nothing now. Except the buyer is always good. LOL
Well I started with 2 cents worth a few days ago in this post and thinking I may have put a dollar into this.
Take care sellers, best of luck, Hoping Craigs list is watching Ebay and learning, so when they are ready to blast out of the box fully, Ebay will be back to selling flowers on the street corner, saying peace and wearing physcodelic clothes again.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Sample Screen Of possible Better System
This gives a more fair picture and helps you evaluate a person as a Buyer or Seller better. At least you can identify problems more easily. I know it needs some work, but I think with buyer and seller input, it could work out to be something much better.
http://www.learntagalognow.com/Ebay-Feedback-problems.html
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay no longer a 2 Way Street!
On May 19, 2008 eBay's Feedback system changed and it seems to ONLY benefit Buyers.
It takes away the ability of a Seller to leave Negative Feedback even in the even a Buyer Backs out of the Auction after winning / never pays for an item.
It's ironic that everyone here the loves the new Feedback (Looking through the Community Boards) is someone who has never sold a thing on eBay.
Most Sellers have been on both sides of the eBay Street (Buying and Selling) and have every right to comment and be pissed about it.
If you have no experience with it, you really have no right to comment.
Let me ask all you "Buyers", what do you contribute in $$$ to eBay? What cost do you pay? THAT'S RIGHT... NONE!
This new Feedback system is fair how? My knowledge of Fair gives equality and right to all parties involved.
Feedback is an essential way of seeing who is the Honest and Dishonest on both the Buyers and Seller's Side. I have been on both sides of this street and over the almost 10 years I have been on eBay, I have 2 negative posts left on my account. Both because the Buyer did not read my auction fully and because they felt cheated (Even though I showed them the details they forgot to read) I received bad feedback. I live I move on, but overall, I come across a lot of "Non-Paying Bidders". I have to process at least one request a week that someone decided they are not going to pay or communicate with me. So I put in the Non-Payment Request which is a sellers right 7 days after the auction ends. The Non-Payment process takes close to two weeks overall to complete, when it is done, the Seller generally get rewarded their insert fees back and the now Bogus Buyer gets a Negative Strike on their account (After 3 eBay Suspends your account) and then I genuinely leave Negative Feedback on their account (Along the lines of "NEVER PAID, NO COMMUNICATION, AVOID " ).
Now if I get someone that never pays, I have to be nice about it??? I will no longer have the ability as a Seller to notify others that "Joe Buyer" never paid for this item and be carful dealing with. Yet on the other and, buyers if they feel they have had some type of 'Bad" experience with a seller, they will still be able to leave the Negative Feedback.
Again, this is fair how???
I think this could have been handled / done another way:
1. Like Sellers do, make buyers put in Credit Card information. Buyers don't contribute any $$$ to eBay. You pay no fees regardless of winning an item or not. A Seller on the other hand pays all the insert fees and once a Bid has been placed on an item, as far as eBay is concerned, it's sold and they take that percentage. Buyers putting in a Credit Card will solve / help solve buyers backing out. Rather then eBay loosing $$$ on rewarding me back my insert fees, they should be charge back to the buyer that backed out. Also on that, eBay should not take a percentage until the item is marked paid / sent by the Seller. You can change the system and make it almost like a wizard that a Buyer or Seller must go through to complete a transaction. From the initial bid, to communication after winning to leaving feedback. MAKE IT A REQUIREMENT ON ALL ENDS! Accounts neglecting to follow the rules get deleted after 3 months.
2. If you are going to put in this change, then there needs to be some considerations. For instance, let Sellers still leave Negative Feedback, if a Buyer gets more then 3 Non-Payment Requests or 3 Negative Feedbacks against them in the course of say 6 months / year, then the Negative feedback should show up. (eBay put something similar to this in effect)
3. Like Buyers do, we should have a "Star" System. Something that shows if the paid on time. Had good communication, Etc...
Feedback overall is based on two things:
1. A Sellers ability to provide the item as described / promised.
2. A Buyers ability to pay for the item and in the way the Seller accepts.
THAT'S IT!
It is a Buyers Responsibility to Ask the Seller a Question. If you as a Buyer don't ask, you may be disappointed in the item you receive, especially if is not what you expected. Also to alert the Seller as to when the Payment is sent.
It is a Sellers Responsibility to Advertise the item honestly and give as many details as possible, also maintain communication with the Buyer that won the item.
Do you know how many Buyers I have that NEVER communicate with me, then the minute I send a Non Payment request, I get the "Why did you do that..." The auction ended 7 - 10 days before, I have sent you several invoices and reminders and have not gotten one response, that is why. Overall, bad transactions generally happen because there is a LACK OF COMMUNICATION! I don't care that you went on vacation... I don't care that you only access eBay from your Work PC if you had time to bid / win then you have time to send me a quick note as to how you plan to pay for the item. It's simply common courtesy.
I have 398 Feedback notes on my account. Most of it as a Seller, the remaining (About 37 Transactions) as a Buyer, so I have been on both sides of this street.
Don't get me wrong, I know there are as many dishonest Sellers out there as there are Buyers, for the most part we are all good and in the world of Sales / Retail, in most cases, you sell an item based on 'Word of Mouth" (FEEDBACK)
I am sure that some of you will disagree with me and I would gather that for the most part, you are all Buyers and you have the right to your Opinion, but unless you have been both a Buyer and a Seller, you really don't realize how unfair this is.
Comments Welcome!
My eBay Blog
My eBay World
Items for Sale
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Bad Buyer List
The function to block buyers who you do not wish to deal with is there. But the problem is there is no way to add them to your blocked buyers list till they already burned you. And once they have, why block them?, they are not coming back anyways.
So lets create a list of user id's of those who are bad buyers.
Post it on the internet so anyway can copy the id's to their blocked buyers list. I will donate a site for this purpose.
Ideas, (Simple please) lol
Lets do it ! You can block before they come scamming to your door that way.
It si not the end all, but getting a list togehtehr appears the only way to somewhat protect ourselves.
you can email me at sitemen@cox.net
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Bad Buyer List 2
So, like un-paying category or scammer. LOl Well ya get the drift.
We need to take control of our future. To long we expected Ebay to help protect us. Now they have stripped us naked and thrown us to the wolves and still expect us to support them. Yes we are the ones paying their wages, not the buyers!
Lets start blocking the problem children NOW!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Sellers cannot leave negative feedback.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Yeah, Great idea... (NOT)
And a buyer who pays, but then decides that the item isn't something he really needs (or something he really needs to have to pay for) so now he wants a refund on an item that is NON-REFUNDABLE. Or the buyer who refuses to return a damaged item EVEN WHEN I OFFER TO NOT ONLY PAY THE RETURN SHIPPING AND GIVE A FULL REFUND BUT OFFER AN ADDITIONAL FEW DOLLARS FOR GAS. He did however pay after the purchase so he deserves a positive RIGHT?!?!?!?!?!!?
I have an international buyer right now who received a priority mail international quote, but then demanded he only have to pay for the first class international mail because it was cheaper (when he emailed he asked about ONLY 1 ITEM then bought 3, I told him that yes I do ship internationally but will only ship Priority or Express for tracking purposes.) Not only did he blackmail me into the international mail (and the quote HE looked up and decided on) but then forced me to give him the shipping discount on an additional 2 items he bought after. 7 days after I shipped the item he opens a paypal claim against me saying the item had not arrived... of course NOT though with the Priority it MAY have. He told me he would close the dispute when the items arrived. about 4 days later he closes the dispute and I hear nothing more from him for OVER 4 WEEKS. Now he is telling me his items haven't arrived and I'm just waiting for him to demand a refund (his order will be 15% of my average monthly income). But I'm sure I should've left him a positive as soon as his payment had been received...
There are idiots, scammers and jerks who can't be pleased ever out there. I REFUSE to leave a retaliatory negative for a negative THAT I DESERVED!!! But if someone is going to USE THE NEGATIVE for me to 1) Get out of terms stated clearly in the auction 2) Get out of a sale they are LEGALLY OBLIGATED to complete just because they changed their mind 3) Try to scam me into giving them my items for free or 4) Use the feedback console as a way to communicate then they deserve a negative.
I bend over backwards to the extreme for my customers. I want you to be happy with your purchase and have gone out of my way even after I received a negative to make the customer happy. I've left SEVERAL neutrals for non paying bidders because I didn't want to ruin their reputation (Non paying bidders COST ME MONEY but I didn't leave them a negative)
But yeah, I'm a horrible seller because I wait to make sure my customers are happy before leaving feedback. I DO NOT DO IT to retaliate, I do it to ensure communication so I can make the experience the best I can for my buyers because ALOT of buyers DON'T communicate is a seller has left feedback so I CAN'T FIX ANYTHING.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
PowerSellers united against eBay
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Too Bad Sellers! Waa Waa Waa!
Waa Waa Waa! Cry me a fucking river sellers!
IF I win and auction and pay within a reasonable amount of time - I SHOULD GET A POSITIVE. PERIOD!!!!
Before I buy ANYTHING from ANY SELLER, I review the feedback the seller has given to people in the past.
If I see that the buyer left a negative due to not getting the item, very slooooooow shipping, etc AND the seller has retaliated with negative feedback - I DO NOT BUY FROM THAT SELLER! I don't care how good of a deal it is, etc.
TOO MANY SELLERS HAVE DONE THIS! Seems to has become a STANDARD practice of A LOT if not MOST sellers.
If I pay fast and later receive crap merchandise or it takes forever, etc - I SHOULD BE ABLE TO LEAVE A NEGATIVE WITHOUT RETALIATION!
This change in policy would never have happened IF sellers did not do retalitory feedback!
YOU BROUGHT THIS ON TO YOURSELVES!!!!!!!!!!
YOU MADE YOUR BEDS, NOW FUCKING LIE IN THEM!!!
TOO BAD SOOO FUCKING SAD SCUMBAGS!
Now you cannot retaliate! AWWWWWWW!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
no seller feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Scammers Might Rise for A Period
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Suggested today to Ebay to fix Part of the Problem !
"I have a few suggestions that will help build confidence and protect sellers. And at the same not interfere with buyers.
1) Since the change on the feedback system on Ebay, Sellers are open for fraud and abuse. Also there is no way to know if the buyer is a crook since they can only get good feedback and good comments. You have no way of knowing anything about the buyer and no way of blocking a bad buyer. It should be our decision who we sell to.
So here is a suggestion: We need to have a way to select at our option in our Ebay to block anyone who has left Negative Feedback to a seller in the last 30 days. This can be an option the same as the unpaid items option we currently have. It can be...Block buyer who has left a negative feedback in the last 30 days with 1,2, negative feedbacks left for others etc. And maybe even a within 30 days, 60 days etc. This allows us to at least block some risky buyers at our discretion. And the buyer even though may have had justification for leaving bad feedback on the transaction with someone else, will still be able to buy from other sellers who do not want to block someone who has left negative feedback in a certain period of time. Also it gives the buyer a 2nd thought of leaving negative feedback without resolving the matter. It will not stop them from buying on ebay, it will just keep them from buying from those sellers who choose to set this option and do not wish to take as much risk on someone who could not resolve the matter in which they gave bad feedback.
2) Another suggestion to help protect sellers and reduce disputes would be an option to require those buyers who have not ID verified with Ebay and got there ID verify icon on their ebay account.
I would like to suggest that the seller have the option to select an option in their account for those that have NOT ID verified that they are required to pay shipping insurance in their purchases. This encourages them to pay the $5.00 and be recognized with ID Verify. They do not have to ID verify on Ebay and totally is an option for the buyer, but if the buyer has not been ID verified they will have shipping insurance automatically in their total costs. Those who are ID verified will not have shipping insurance automatically added to their shipping costs. Shipping insurance will be optional for ID verified members of Ebay as it is presently for everyone Id Verified or not. This way we can clean up the buyers a little, and at least know a little more who is legit. It encourages the buyer to participate a little more in the Ebay system. And gives the sellers a little more reinsurance on transactions.
I know there is no way of completely eliminating all fraud etc. But these 2 suggestions at least give the seller more control who buys their products and also helps legitimize more buyers. And since both are options, and not required to be used. It should have no effect on disrupting the present system. And you can stop all the bad press and forums about the feedback system which is driving your sellers away."
I suggest everyone who agrees to this, submit it through contact us on ebay. Or your suggestion. They are not going to change this buyer gets the item for free if they want policy, so we need safe gaurds that we can use if we choose to protect ourselves a little.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
By the way
This suggestion is for those who need a label saying coffee is hot on a coffee cup, that standing in the middle of the freeway could get you run over etc.
There are people like that out there, the MTV generation
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: By the way
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Over the past week, I've been endlessly harassed by BUYERS telling me to lower my shipping costs (they're not inflated; exactly what it costs for me to ship it off with insurance!) and to give them deals.
The icing? One buyer specifically said they were going to give me negative feedback if I didn't lower my shipping 75%, and sent me about 4 threatening emails. I can't even say anything about how reasonable this buyer is!
As with any feedback system, you will have scammers, and making the process more onesided doesn't help! You just change the balance of power.
After my horrible experience this past week, I am going to a different auction site
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Are you kidding me?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBAY FEEDBACK
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Fight the ban on non sellers feedback button.
Fight the ban
Ebay play dirty ,then so should we sellers.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Many sellers claim that is unfair because expectations vary from customer to customer. Too bad, Welcome to the real world.
Communicate and get the item to the customer fast. Period. End of story. And if you happen to be selling an item for $1. Big deal. You want the same good feedback, be prepared to offer the same level of service.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay
I sold an item about 2 months ago on Ebay and everything was good for 55 days then he decides he wants a refund. So he goes to Paypal and does the item not as described and they said to late over 45 days. So then he goes to Ebay and says the same thing and he gets no where so he drops the case and then he asked me. I had others just like it. He said it didn't work but he had forgotten to tell me earlier. I told him It was a little late but I would trade it out. Trying to keep my perfect feedback. No he wants a refund all his money back. I'm sorry exchange only so now I have my first Negative and ebay says that the way he worded it that it couldn't be removed. They said if your on Ebay long enough it is bound to happen. I look like a bad seller and I have done nothing wrong. Why wouldn't you just trade it if it was bad?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
EBAY
Goodbye power seller rating.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: EBAY
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebay
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Good idea, but not quite good enough...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Good idea, but not quite good enough...
When either party receives feedback, they will be notified, BUT they cannot see the feedback that was left until they leave their feedback.
That way, both parties give their honest opinions, without knowing what the other person said. In theory, this would end mean retaliation feedback...
Do it ebay! Try it, and give me the credit... I said it first!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
lol
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Is Ebay unfair...Verdict...YES
BUT the unfortute happens... there score keeps rising. THEY DO NOT NEED TO BUY ANTHING BUT THEY GET POSITVE FEEDBACK.
Is this Fair...NO WAY !
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Hmm
I've learned that the whole "The customer is always right" thing is bullshit. The customer is rarely right."
Bollocks - without buyers you wouldn't have eBay. It's ultimately a BUYERS market not a SELLERS one.
As both a ex-Powerseller and a frequent buyer I see two sides of the coin.
There are so many crap sellers out there too, selling stuff thats broken, take weeks to ship etc. etc. As a buyer I do feel more confident now that people will try to rectify a problem than before.
As a seller - yes its crap. Because there are plenty who don't pay and nit pick like crazy - so much so that I don't sell there any more its too stressful. That's ebays problem because they won't make much money from me anymore....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay abusers' heaven
Real fucking smart idea from ebay admininstration. They think with their ass.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
feedback
The feedback policy is meant to show the other ebay members that you are good and safe to deal with. In order to do that, you must have input from both sides. I find it absolutely ridiculous that you can't leave negative feedback for non-paying bidders now. How are you supposed to warn other sellers that this buyer has a history of not paying?
Now buyers can start making ridiculous demands, that is IF they send payment in the first place, and if they don't like what you say, they may just leave you a negative feedback with no concern for their feedback score.
The feedback system is completely useless now, but that's feebay for you.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay doesn't care about sellers!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: eBay doesn't care about sellers!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay is the problom
make no mistake eBay has friends in high places and if you click on my name you will see 1000 adverts we have saved where members are selling feedback and yet when we ask eBay about this , as usual they do nothing.
eBay is the problom and eBuster is the solution
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
10) item shipped, buyer tell you why delivery takes so long and tell you he need to cancel the item.
11) item shipped, buyer tell you his address is not correct and he sent it to your e-mail box immediately after payment, but you did not see this when you post the item, even you check all your message in eBay My message
12) item shipped, buyer tell you he never receive your shipping notification and ask for money back and blame for your poor services.
13) pre-order item of 30 days as listed in item description, but buyer ask why item is not shipped within 4 business days as described in your Shipping and handling section
14) buyer not pay and when you file eBay dispute, he paid and immediately leave you negative because you did not close the dispute after receiving his payment
15) when you close the dispute buyer told you he does not want the item and ask for return, you lose the FVF.
16) buyer purchase 100 of your items and ask you why your shipping cost is so big...
17) buyer purchase 100 of your items and ask you to give big discount to him...
so many...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Feedback is a joke and only costs £0.01 a go on eBay
eBays only action is to remove posts about this subject from the forum which helps scammers and it makes it look as if eBay is saleing a lot more then it is doing.
over 2000 of our policemen here in the UK recived so called special training from eBay last year so don't think they are going to help you and this may explain why we only had 70 convictions last year for on-line fraud.
sooner or later i beleive eBay will turn into an Enron and it need not look towards buyers or sellers for suport unless they are corporations themselves.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay Feedback is Truly a Joke
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Whats the point of it now?
What does annoy me now is the sheer pointlessness of leaving feedback for buyers at all as its obvious they cant be criticized in the slightest. What is the purpose of a feedback system that can only be about positive things?
Why couldn't they have allowed sellers to leave neutral or negative feedback given the buyer met a certain criteria, such as having being found guilty in a buyer dispute, or having received a buyer strike for a non-payment?
Im all for making feedback honest and fair, but the way it exists now, you mightiest well remove feedback for the buyers side all together because it serves no purpose.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebay feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: ebay feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Solution?
As of now I am just a buyer on ebay. Ive bought dozens of items in the last 5 months (67 left for others, and I always leave it), and of those I only ran into problems about 5 times. Two were lost and the sellers were sure to contact me about it, and said theyd inform me if they found them and I received a full refund. Another was the wrong item but the seller was cooperative. I only had real problems with two. One was when 2 of the 8 pieces were obviously broken before packing and their individual boxes were floating inside the big box, which had nothing but FLAT PAPER that was somehow supposed to absorb the shock. The one Im dealing with now really takes the cake.
Other than those, I have had all great transactions. And the lowest feedback score Ive seen aside from sellers who sell only a few items a month (2ish) is probably about 94%, but those are rare and I do avoid them. Normally feedback is in the 97-100% range.
*sigh* Id love to be the CEO. If I was, Id certainly do a lot of things differently. I wish fruitcakes like Donahoe and Eisner couldnt get hold of otherwise good companies and mess them up beyond all repair.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
negative feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Buyers are happy of course,
but i hope one day you'll sell something & when your buyer won’t pay for an item for some stupid reason you'll see how it feels :-)
F U ebay
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay bans negative feedback from sellers
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
for items already refund,no need for any feedback.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Terrible Idea
There is a way to deal with this. In the future, I won't sell to first time buyers or from buyers from non-Western countries. Or better yet, let's all use Craig's List - it's cheaper and you get to talk to a person.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
crazy buyers
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Buyers feedback!
I know sellers need to be honest with their items they are selling but the buyer needs to be honest to and not be lying about the item they received is bad or not as described.When actually their is no problem. Also never responsing to emails or make their payments. But we as the seller cant leave a person like this negative feedback? How is that fair?
Ebay needs to change this back so everyone can leave negative feedback.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The Perfect eBay Buyer Race
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay negative feedback club
I am starting an ebay negative feedback club.
Just to be a nuisance.
I like to buy things and just leave negative feedback for the fun of it for not reason whatsoever.
Heee it's fun. Weeee leaving negative feedback for sellers if fun and ebay proudly supports this by protecting our club of negative feedback leavers.
There is absolutely nothing any seller can do about it.
And who cares if ebay kicks him off or looses his/her business oh well.
And if ebay charges more fees because the seller did not maintain the feedback level or DSR rating ratio.
And if you get too many DSR Ha,Ha,Ha too bad you even get your items lowered on the search engine ranking system so you items may not even be seen anymore.
Yep, I'm a proud member of the negative feedback club and we do it just because it's fun.
And oh did I mention I might even work for ebay and sell my services to them in order to keep the power sellers from hitting that 20% discount rate in the final value fees discount.
Now isn't ebay great for protecting buyers from sellers ?
Or should they be protecting sellers from buyers like us ?
Now there's a thought
Bring back the old feedback system that was real, and allow people to settle their disputes and add or remove feedback as needed. Or correct it as needed. Don't make it permanent if people work things out the rating they leave should be changeable as the situation actually reflects
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Negative feedback
I have left negative feedback because I believe it is important for the next buyer to know about a seller's history. The primary reason I have left negative feedback is when the item received has been inaccurately described or depicted. In these situations, before I leave negative feedback, I always notify the seller first and explain the problem. I also request my shipping fee back. If the seller refuses, which is often the case, I open a dispute and leave negative feedback. Importantly, I have always won the dispute because it has been obvious to E-bay that the item description was less than objective. However, inevitably, after I leave negative feedback, I receive nasty emails from the seller. This is unacceptable. So, I appreciate what E-bay has done.
Just an analogy - - when I buy on-line from a company, if there is a problem with the purchase which requires a return, the company typically assumes the cost of shipping BOTH WAYS. I think the same policy should apply to E-bay. The bottome line is that Ebay is a business, and as such, there needs to be accountability and it should be without fear of retribution.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
whatever...
They need to take it a step further, I believe that if the item is not paid for by the time the case is closed, the buyer should automatically get a nice big red neg in bold saying "ITEM WAS NOT PAID FOR", this will make them think twice about bidding on things and have no intention of paying for it because other sellers will not do business with them if they see a buyer with a bunch of those, that is only fair IMHO, too many tire kickers and NPB make ebay a bad place to sell and they aren't making it any better by putting even more stupid rules into effect.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Enjoy Your Negatives
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Bad...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay feedback system
Its based on a trust between two community minded, kind and courteous individuals.
However there seem to be an ever increasing number of bad mannered irresponsible people who are signing up and bidding for a laugh. Unlike a shopkeeper we have no idea what a buyer is really like as there will never be any warning feedback against them. A shopkeeper wouldnt allow his banned customers to post a comment on the door!!
I only sell a few things per year and still get many of my auctions attacked by people just out to spoil them.
People with zero feedback who call themselves auction wrecker or 666 stormbringer with zero feedback and 500 bids.
Ebay hardly do anything to really protect sellers.
Also someone with say thirty feedback may have purchased only one item this year and have been nothing but trouble. Its impossible to tell from a star rating on a bidding list
I was given my first negative by someone who didnt even pay and spoilt the sale by being abusive. He didnt care as he knows its one way traffic.
So you cant have feedback that is controlled by only one party. There are plenty of bad buyers and non payers out there.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
this topic of course
And of course eBay is the epitomy of "getting something for nothing", as they do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for sellers. It's very expensive selling on eBay, and the platform is comepletely usless and doesn't work half the time. Sellers are the customers of eBay. We pay eBay hundreds of pounds a month. And we get treated like dirt. It's a complete bloody disgrace and eBay should be damned ashamed of themselves.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay Feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay Feedback
At the same time the system for sellers not being able to leave negative feedback is stupid. I have two folks that are Non-Paying Bidders right now, got one more day before I can file an alert on both of them. I can't let other sellers know about these problem bidders cause I can only leave positive feedback. I even have sent two invoices, too both bidders, and a message. They've choose to ignore the invoices and messages I sent.
It's just plain stupid on ebay to restrict the sellers in this way.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Bully buyers turning Ebay into Walmart
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
negative feedback to the buyer
Sellers feedback score goes down and the sellers FEES GO UP!!
eBay ripped sellers!
eBay will offer zero protection for sellers.
eBay need of restoration.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: negative feedback to the buyer
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Feedback system needs to be overhauled again
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ebay removes sellers rights
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Bullshit email from eBay in regards to feedback
----
Dear ####,
Thank you for writing eBay in regard to the neutral feedback that you
received from sua.2008.
I understand that it can be frustrating to get anything but positive
Feedback. Since neutral feedback can only be revised by the buyer, I'd
like to offer you some ideas on ways you can address your buyer's
concerns and pursue possible revision of this Feedback. Below are some
tips we've found to be effective in many cases.
-- Acknowledge your buyer's concern. A buyer who has received an item
that's broken or that they aren't satisfied with (whether or not the
situation is in your control) is going to be frustrated. It's important
to acknowledge this frustration when you respond to your buyer.
Even a statement like, "I understand how frustrating it can be to
receive a product you're unsatisfied with and I'd like to work with you
to help come to an agreement" can really help.
-- Make your buyer feel valuable. Let your buyer know that you
appreciate the Feedback as a way to help improve your business.
For example, if it's appropriate, consider a response like, "Thanks for
letting me know about the unclear parts of my item description. I'm
taking steps to make sure this confusion doesn't happen again."
-- Offer your buyer an incentive to buy from you again. Thank your
customers for helping you improve your business and offer them a thank
you for their time.
For example, you could acknowledge that while this transaction didn't go
smoothly, you'd be happy to offer them free shipping on their next
purchase from you.
--Make sure your buyer's concerns are resolved before asking about
Feedback revision. Once you're sure the buyer is satisfied with the
resolution, you can ask if they would consider revising their Feedback.
You can mention that Feedback is very important to your business,
because the buyer might not realize the impact it can have. However, if
the buyer declines, please respect their decision.
I hope this information is helpful. I wish you the best of luck in
resolving your buyer's concerns.
Thank you for being a valuable member of the eBay community. Have a
wonderful time shopping and selling on eBay!
Sincerely,
Arlene C.
eBay Customer Support
--------
Again, bunch of bullshit from eBay. Screw you and your ways, I'm leaving.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Bullshit email from eBay in regards to feedback
----
Dear ####,
Thank you for writing eBay in regard to the neutral feedback that you
received from sua.2008.
I understand that it can be frustrating to get anything but positive
Feedback. Since neutral feedback can only be revised by the buyer, I'd
like to offer you some ideas on ways you can address your buyer's
concerns and pursue possible revision of this Feedback. Below are some
tips we've found to be effective in many cases.
-- Acknowledge your buyer's concern. A buyer who has received an item
that's broken or that they aren't satisfied with (whether or not the
situation is in your control) is going to be frustrated. It's important
to acknowledge this frustration when you respond to your buyer.
Even a statement like, "I understand how frustrating it can be to
receive a product you're unsatisfied with and I'd like to work with you
to help come to an agreement" can really help.
-- Make your buyer feel valuable. Let your buyer know that you
appreciate the Feedback as a way to help improve your business.
For example, if it's appropriate, consider a response like, "Thanks for
letting me know about the unclear parts of my item description. I'm
taking steps to make sure this confusion doesn't happen again."
-- Offer your buyer an incentive to buy from you again. Thank your
customers for helping you improve your business and offer them a thank
you for their time.
For example, you could acknowledge that while this transaction didn't go
smoothly, you'd be happy to offer them free shipping on their next
purchase from you.
--Make sure your buyer's concerns are resolved before asking about
Feedback revision. Once you're sure the buyer is satisfied with the
resolution, you can ask if they would consider revising their Feedback.
You can mention that Feedback is very important to your business,
because the buyer might not realize the impact it can have. However, if
the buyer declines, please respect their decision.
I hope this information is helpful. I wish you the best of luck in
resolving your buyer's concerns.
Thank you for being a valuable member of the eBay community. Have a
wonderful time shopping and selling on eBay!
Sincerely,
Arlene C.
eBay Customer Support
--------
Again, bunch of bullshit from eBay. Screw you and your ways, I'm leaving.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
sellers leave it after payment
It's basically like when a government doesn't enforce a law that would be effective if taken seriously.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Not A Happy Seller
Also, they are holding my funds now even though other buyers have received their items and left feedback. I am NOT a new seller! I have been with Ebay over 9 years with 100% positive feedback and 155 transactions. This is not right.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Negative Feedback ????
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
hope for us sellers yet?!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebay sucks at customer relations
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebay feedback!
My first Neg in 10 years! What an ass! Not 1 word about what he paid for. Feedback is for 1 year, and all I can do is give him Positive feedback or report buyer that goes NOWHERE. Somebody open an Honest online auction service. We all need it bad. Ebay and Paypal is BS !!!!!!
Muchofreeo.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: ebay feedback!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I am Feedback Seller
i have 20 ebay accounts and selling ebay feedabck.if you have below to standard account and have selling limit on your account please contact with me on skype (mark.newyork40)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Poor Decision
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Take little or no notice of the positive rating system
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Very disappointed
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebay protect seller never-msrp from negative review
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
No Seller Protection
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
i ordered brand new timberland boots at August. i receive poor quality. after i talk to this seller we agreed that i will send the shoes back, and get refund. the seller promise that when the shipment arrives he will contact me. after one and 1/2 month i asked whats going on, and he said it arrived and forgot to tell me. since than i chased him for 2 months, at start he ignored all my messages, and when i threatened him i'll leave bad feedback he gave excuses that he need my email and other problems with paypal (i got refund before from another seller so its not true) . i sent the mail, and gave him solution for paypal. since than- he ignored me again. and didnt answer my messages.
Bottom line- ronaldbower2012 kept the shoes and my money (120 gbp!!).. he took advantage of the fact that it has been more than 60 days and ebay cant help, and i cant open a case. he tricked me.he is not honest. since august i chased him, until today.... be careful from this seller..
i have everything documented.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ridiculous
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Where results contain multi-variation listings, the item counts on the page are inclusive of all matching variations that are available.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Feedback
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
THE HELL WITH EBAY
I am tired of getting ripped off on eBay with many sellers and buyers. There are MILLIONS of Buyers that screw sellers and MILLIONS of Sellers that screw Buyers. What does eBay do about this situation? NOTHING they do not care. Many Buyers state there is something wrong with the product they purchased but that is not true since they do not return the product and get their money back and get a free item. This has happen to me many times. I Have lost thousands of dollars and PayPal stated the buyer has sent the product back but it may of gotten lost in the mail.. I said they did not even mail it because I look the person up on Facebook and they stated they rip sellers off. and sent them proof of this.
I am tired of PayPal. They are NOT number 1 in transactions there are other companies that is much better. eBay has gone down the hill over the last few years there are better auction sites now.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebay banning negative reviews.
personally would not be inclined to leave a negative review unless it is warranted.
Giving to fair trading on e.bay dealing with people we don,t know is risky so i tend to deal with people i have had good trading relationships with.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
eBay For Dummies-For Dummies (2014).pdf - 28.4 MB
http://www.anafile.com/qyum0gape058.html
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ebay did not let me leave negative feedback
ebay did not pay my money when I left a negative feed back it blocked it from being posted.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
buyer always wins
Representation on the seller's side of eBay's bargaining table is non-existent in all "Request To Return" cases. The seller is always the bad guy no matter what and has absolutely no say in the ruling. NONE! ALL seller testimony was blatantly disregarded. If a case is opened against a seller by a buyer, don't waste your time fighting it. It won't do you any good. YOU WILL NOT WIN!
In a recent email I asked eBay's customer service, "You obviously have the buyer protection program. Where do your seller protections lie?" She said, "The seller protection is the shipping insurance that you purchase." Well, what good is that if the buyer doesn't provide adequate information to produce a positive outcome to a claim? And neglects to report shipping damage to a facility where he received the item? I exercised that protection. I was told by customer service that eBay has limited resources to provide a ruling on a case and shipping insurance was not one of those resources. WHAT? Their main limited resource is their narrow little minds!
As a result of this experience, I am no longer an eBay user, and neither is my wife, as she had a similar "not as described" experience. So, if you decide to become an eBay seller, this is what you can expect. Absolutely ZERO seller representation under the buyer protection program. Make your decision wisely. You have been warned!!!!!!!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
bad competitors' hostile feedbacks
Here are few trouble makers from mine: bigdog77bigal, clipmonk570. cauus-qip8vln.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
another lesson
This seller adds Craiglist is absolutely free, extreme fast and locally and so the price can mark lower. The only problem is not too many items list for sale, because of our mistake.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Banned From eBay
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
RE: I have a restriction on my account - 233 SR# 1-132327258286
Hello Jez,
My name is Nida, one of the specialist from eBay Trust and Safety and I'm writing you with regard to your previous communication with our chat representative. I understand you'd like to appeal with the restriction to be remove from your account "phonetech247", so let me look into this for you.
Jess, upon checking your account once again and I would like to remind you that the Selling Restriction on your account is permanent and final. We won’t be able to help you to appeal this decision going forward.
Our decision is based on evidence from our records. We're not comfortable with your selling practices or business model, and we feel they don't help to promote a positive buying and selling environment.
Even though you can't sell on our website, you can still use your account to buy or bid on items. For more information on the basics of buying, please visit:
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/buy/basics.html
Please remember that you can't use other accounts or register new accounts to sell on eBay. If you do, your accounts could be limited, restricted, or suspended.
This is the last answer we can give you in relation to the account restriction. We are happy to assist you with any other query. However, if your query is in relation to this restriction in the next correspondence, it will remain unanswered.
Thank you again for taking the time to clarify this issue with us. We appreciate your cooperation.
Kind regards,
Nida V.
eBay Trust & Safety
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]