House Republicans Take Their Ball, Go Home In FISA Fight
from the so-THAT'S-what-a-spine-looks-like dept
It now appears all but certain that the stopgap Protect America Act, which Congress passed in August, will expire this weekend, despite dark warnings from the White House that this would create a parlous "intelligence gap" and stymie intelligence community efforts to track terrorists. House Republicans, led by Minority Leader John Boehner of Ohio, staged a walkout to protest Democrats' refusal to schedule an immediate vote on a bill approved in the Senate earlier this week enacting more permanent changes to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Unlike the RESTORE Act passed in the House back in October, the Senate bill establishes only limited checks on warrantless surveillance of communications between Americans and foreigners, and includes a provision granting retroactive amnesty to telecoms charged with illegally providing customer data to the government without a court order.
Democrats are, for a change of pace, fighting back against charges that they are soft on security issues. Contra predictions of imminent doom, many are now pointing out that the practical effect of the PAA's lapsing is likely to be quite limited, as any surveillance authorized under the law can continue unabated for another six months. And for all the administration's dire forecasts, Democrats note that it was House Republicans who voted down a further temporary extension of the PAA in the shadow of a presidential veto threat, and the Republican leader in the Senate who blocked a bicameral conference on the bill, in hopes of forcing the immediate approval of the White House–endorsed Senate bill. In a letter to President Bush today, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, who had drawn the ire of progressives for his perceived compliance with White House demands, blasted what he characterized as the administration's "reckless attempt to manufacture a crisis over the reauthorization of foreign surveillance laws."
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I know it's been said before but....
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
I still have the right to not be listened to if I'm calling someone in a foreign country or if I'm using my cell in another country and if a telecom company assisted in obtaining those calls illegally, then they should be held accountable for treating all Americans as guilty.
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Re: I know it's been said before but....
Im sick of people complaining that the government doesnt have a right. Do you want to know something? A terrorist doesnt have the right to take lives, and if we are saving lives, I dont care if they listen to every minute of my phone calls, because IM no terrorist.
The whole bill was set up by the Democratic party anyways, who were paid over a million dollars to vote for the bill by a group of lawyers who like to sue telcos for giving up information. The democrats dont even care if we might be missing key terrorist information, as long as they get a measly million bucks.
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
Shortly before the original FISA bill was passed in the late 1970's, Frank Church led a Senate committee investigation that uncovered a series of federal wiretapping abuses. For example, a congressman was spied on. The FBI, in a well documented attempt to uncover embarrassing personal information, spied on Martin Luther King, hoping to discredit him as a civil rights leader. This was done under the false pretense of investigating communism.
Human beings being what they are, without serious judicial oversight, its not hard to imagine similar abuses happening in the name of investigating terrorism.
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
"Do you want to know something? A terrorist doesnt have the right to take lives..."
Who does? We do?
Spare me...
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
We would absolutely prevent more crime and lock up more bad guys without pesky things like laws:
* providing the right to not self-incriminate
* against illegal search and seizure
* against double jeopardy
* providing the right to assembly
* etc.
We're a country that abhors false positives so much that we're okay with the occasional false negative.
The new senate bill completely obliterates judicial oversight. According to the bill, the courts do not have to be told hardly anything about the interceptions. The government is "not required to identify the specific facilities, places, premises, or property" involved in wiretapping. All the court is allowed to do is make sure the forms were filled out right. If the FISA court finds that the fourth amendment is being violated they can issue an order which "at the Government's election" does not have to be obeyed. Can you see why someone might object to that?
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
"We Americans were so horrified to discover we were vulnerable to terrorist attacks that we were willing to give dictatorial powers to the first mediocrity who asked for them.
When FDR became president, he said: "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." It's still true."
(Full Text by Philip Slater@ HuffingtonPost.com)
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Re: Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
Please tell that to 3000 New Yorkers, no wait; they are dead.
The wire taps have saved lives, maybe yours.
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
Ryan wrote:
There is no evidence that such surveillance has ever caught anything resembling a terrorist, or that it will ever do so.
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Re: Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I know it's been said before but..
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
No body is saying the Government can't listen in. What they are saying is that there has to be due process and review and a warrant has to be issued. The reality is that the FISA court and judges can act very swiftly in the case of an emergency and, in fact, taps can be started with out court approval but have to have a warrant issued with in a set time period or will have to cease. It gives law enforcement that ability to respond swiftly and provides for review.
Letting the government have carte blanch in observing the citizens is a recipe for Totalitarianism. This is a slippery slope that leads to the curbing of other freedoms.
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
Yeah, if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear, right? At least, not until someone decides you HAVE done something wrong. Just because you're sitting pretty now doesn't mean that down the line someone in power won't decide you're a threat. The more protection we maintain against those we've allowed to govern us, the better we stand against such possible future abuses.
We SHOULD do what we can do stop terrorist attacks on our country, but we SHOULD NOT compromise ourselves in order to do so.
"When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist."
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
A terrorist doesn't have the right to take a life unless they're funded by the American government and kill in other countries I assume you mean to say.
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FISA abuses
by the mainstream media, namely room 641a.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
The fact that they were not just monitoring foreign calls.
They were monitoring all calls, even if you were not on
a suspected terror association list.
Yes, that is right, all internal US calls, even grandma
to grandson on Christmas.
It may sound conspiratorial, but it takes more gear to
monitor all citizens so it cost more money for what
they TRULY implemented.
This exceeded the scope of their venture, and is
Orwellian at best, and I can only dream of what the
worst thing it could be done with it with speech
recognition and them possibly considering any
phone number that has called a gang members phone
as being a "domestic terrorist" even if your child
doesn't know that little johnny at school is a
poser gang member.
Like the Wikipedia article says, this is just one of
many such rooms around the country.
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Right On # 4 - 7
Americans 4, Ryan 0. Owned.
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Extreme Politics
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Extreme Politics
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It is people naive like you that are allowing them to do what they do - RETARD!
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Get a warrant
Nobody's saying you can't do domestic surveillance, but get a freaking warrant -- you can even do it retroactively! Someone other than the law enforcement officer needs to know what's going on. Why are you so afraid of judicial oversight?
For some reason authority seems to believe that if they just knew who everyone was, they would be able to find bad guys, but that isn't so because bad guys are motivated and smart, too (see Iraq) they will change tactics. New terrorists aren't likely to be spotted by anyone in law enforcement - they'll be spotted by us, the civilians because they will always learn how to hide from police.
Oh, and while I'm on the soapbox, I object to the whole "War On Terror" slogan. It's stupid. You can't declare war on terrorism any more than you can declare war on poverty. It's not a group or a place or land you can take and hold - it's a tactic, and eliminating (by force) the people doing it won't eliminate that people will still be doing it to each other a thousand years from now. It's how little guys (who in this case, by the way, happen to be homicidal maniacs) fight against an overwhelming opponent. If Al Zarquawi had the money and troops to roll 10,000 tanks into Iraq instead of kidnapping contractors and civilians, he would have.
The sooner we get rid of Bush, the better.... AND I VOTED FOR HIM!!!!!
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Hmmm
And Ryan, you are a tard.
There is no reason they deserve immunity for subverting due process. The telcos deserve to be penalized for breaking the law. And I am proud of the democrats for a change for standing up against this totalitarianism. About darn time.
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something seems wrong about this post...
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Do you remember the first thing they did with the
Anyone who believes this act is designed to protect us is an idiot. I know lots of you are idiots, and I am ashamed to share a country with you.
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Again I ask, why are you worried about it?
Oh, and the whole NSA Calling Scandal that has everyone's panties in a bunch? They were not listening to calls, they were seeing who was talking to whom. Get off your fucking soapboxes you sissieboys. Let real men protect you and America while you type bullshit on your computer screens.
Israel knows how to get things done. They did the world a favor when they wacked Mughniyah. How is that for due process?
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Re:
Every time a president wants more power, it's the same excuse "national security".
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Those of you
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Re: I know it's been said before but....
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Re: Re: I know it's been said before but....
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Re: Republican walkout
Seems like the Dems spend all their time and energy trying to embarrass the president and investigate every little thing the administration does, no matter how much it may also embarrass the country and even give aid and comfort to those who wish to see us dead. I'll be glad when Mr. Bush leaves office, since the Dems will have to actually show us results instead of this endless partisanship.
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