Yet Another Study Shows Red Light Cameras Cause More Accidents And Aren't Needed
from the it's-all-about-the-money dept
Over and over again, we've seen studies that have shown that red light cameras tend to increase, not decrease auto accidents, and certainly don't do much to improve safety. The Agitator points us to yet another study, this time from researchers at the University of South Florida, who again point out that red light cameras tend to increase the number of accidents. The research also points out that accidents from running red lights are rather rare, and it's hardly a problem that requires automation. As for the few studies that have shown better safety from red light cameras, every single one came from a group poised to make money off of the cameras -- and they certainly do make money. It's just unfortunate that it seems to come at the expense of more car accidents, all in the bogus name of public safety. Update: Of course, just after publishing this, I see a story on Engadget about how Dallas has found that red light cameras are effective in preventing red light violations (no word on rear end collisions from people slamming on the brakes however). Yet, here's the irony: because of that, the city gov't doesn't want to install any more, as it's cutting into revenue.
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Filed Under: accidents, insurance, public safety, red light cameras
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re:Update - I may be cynical but, ...
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How does that work? Isn't that kind of like talking out of both sides of your mouth?
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Re:
If you read the post, you'd see that I added that second part later. But, you know, you've never been a big fan of facts.
Besides, if you took the time to think about it, rather than using this as yet another excuse to trash us, you'd see that this actually does prove that it is all about revenue. Dallas installed them hoping to increase revenue, like other places found. Now that it's discovered it doesn't increase revenue, it's holding off the program.
So despite your weak attempt at trashing us, a basic reading of the post (even with the update) doesn't change the point.
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Get up on the wrong side of the blog today?
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Anonymous, you have certainly caught Mike in a direct contradiction. Unless, of course, the city government decides to back off the program because the revenue they expected isn't there. Which is kind of what his update says.
I haven't seen the story on Engadget, but what Mike wrote is at the very least internally consistent.
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Re:
For the most part, red light cameras are all about generating revenue. They are typically installed not at intersections that experience red-light accidents, but intersections that experience the highest amount of red-light violations. They are sold to public as improving safety, but are installed in locations that generate lots of revenue.
Now, when a municipality finds that the red light cameras reduce accidents (who knows, maybe Dallas actually installed the cameras at the most dangerous intersections), they are thinking of removing them because they generate less revenue. So again, it's no about safety but about revenue.
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Re:
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Irony in Tampa
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Re: Irony in Tampa
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lol@post 2
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The District of Columbia model
Apparently, the manufacturer of the red light cameras was happy to install them for the cash-strapped city at a discount in exchange for a percentage of the red-light ticket fees collected. Then someone (a city council member, perhaps?) pointed out that if the purpose of these devices is to reduce the amount of red-light running, why should the manufacturer get rewarded by their products' failing to do their job?
Arguably a camera manufacturer that is being paid by the ticket would be more inclined to make the cameras harder to notice by drivers, or even cheat by somehow "catching" people who were not actually running the light. Come to think of it, why are these cameras always camouflaged? Shouldn't they be bright orange to make drivers more aware of their presence and less likely to run the light? (Yes, I am saying this with tongue in cheek. Revenue enhancement through "enforcement" of driving laws has been around as long as there have been cars and public roads, and I've got a few speeding tickets from small town cops to prove it.)
I always thought the D.C. case was an interesting semi-paradox, or at least a great example of private industry profiting off of local law enforcement.
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Re: The District of Columbia model
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Re: Re: The District of Columbia model
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Anonymous Coward
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Re: the other side from someone who doesn't think
So if you want people stopping at a GREEN light at an intersection due to red light cameras (and the enormous traffic buildup that ensues/accident risk created from traffic/enraged drivers) be my guest. I'd rather that people stop believing that somehow ticketing people for more garbage is more safe...its like douple plus ungood logic.
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Re: Re: the other side from someone who doesn't th
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Re: Re: Re: the other side from someone who doesn'
That still isn't failing to stop for a red light. It's a different offense and issuing a citation in that situation for "failing to stop for a red light" is improper and probably illegal if done knowingly.
Talk about failing arguments.
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Re: Re: Re: the other side from someone who doesn'
> an intersection regardless of whether the light
> is green when you enter it or not, and I suspect
> it's the same across the Country.
You suspect wrong. In Texas, the law allows that if a driver enters an intersection legally, he/she is allowed to leave it legally, regardless of whether the light changes in the meantime.
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A considerable increase, and with injuries to go along with them.
...the goal for RLC's is to dramatically reduce the catestrophic side impact/head on collisions at red lights.
Bull. The goal is to make money. Side impact collisions from running red lights are already infrequent with the result being a net increase in injuries. You sound like some troll for one of the manufacturers. You don't care how many people get hurt as long as you make a buck?
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No, it's not that simple. I wish you were in my car with me 2 nights ago. After a kangaroo traffic court disallowed my appeal for running a YELLOW light alleged as red (while a real red light could be seen in the same photo at the next signal) I went to work that very night. This time I saw a yellow light same intersection. What do you think I did?
I hit the brakes and went into a panic stop. The woman behind me (uninsured) sent my car like a missile clear across the intersection. Her car mushroomed up to the windshield. Both cars totaled. Both of us taken to the hospital. Emergency techs immobilized my neck and spine and took me out tied down like Gulliver. A Sergeant was kind enough to take my gun (I'm a federal peace officer) - Me?, head, neck and back pains that I worry may be permanent. All because I worried about another $50 fine for a fraudulent summons. You assume traffic courts are honest: Here in NYC they are a joke. They don't care about the truth. They want your money even if the cards are marked - and they ARE in NYC. The driver behind me could have kept her distance, big shit! - most don't and they're not ready for a panic stop for a red light camera that gives you a summons when the light is yellow. The body shop tells me this happens all the time at RLC's. I'm telling you this is a depraved and despicable scam that rips off law abiding drivers who've committed no offense and I am one of them.
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So, some jackass is following too close, slams into another jackass who can't tell the difference between a yellow and a red, and it's the *cameras* fault?
OMFG!!
What will they come up with next? Has it really gotten this bad? Can no-one take responsibility for their own actions any more? What the hell happened to personal responsibility and integrity?
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The liberals and lawyers have all but extinguished it. You will be much better off once the government controls all of that messy stuff anyway.
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Remind yourself of that when you're roasting in hell for you initialed just before that.
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Going to Hell? For expecting responsibility?
Riiiight.
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No, where did you get that idea? Did you bother to read what was initialed before that comment? Reading comprehension isn't your strong suite is it?
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So, some jackass is following too close, slams into another jackass who can't tell the difference between a yellow and a red, and it's the *cameras* fault?
OMFG!!
What will they come up with next? Has it really gotten this bad? Can no-one take responsibility for their own actions any more? What the hell happened to personal responsibility and integrity?"
Anonymous Coward,
I really hope two things happen to you: First I hope you get ticketed for going a though a yellow light like I did.
Second I hope the next time you stop for the same yellow light, you get rear-ended by a truck. Now that would really show you who's a jackass!
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Any idiot that can't break for a yellow, or has to slam for a red shouldn't be on the roads anyway. They teach you what to do based on the colors of the lights in Driver's Ed, people.
It's really not that hard.
*laughing*
Definitely worth it. Put more up. Keep 'em coming. At the very least it should provide entertainment during lunch breaks.
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Oops, wrong forum again. :-/
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Red Ink Cameras
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Revenue Enhancement
If you think, and I'm being generous with the word think, otherwise then I regret to inform you that you are extremely stupid and may need some type of supervision so you don't hurt yourself.
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Those doing the Studies don't live in my area
Southern California
Southern Florida
Western Washington (state, that is)
I can't speak for the NE U.S. but the general populous in these other areas obviously is NOT getting tested for what the Yellow and Red lights actually mean. In these areas, when your light turns green, you best sit and count to 5, check both ways, and then check both ways again to make sure some D.A. doesn't try and run his light into you!
While this is not directly related to RLC, an example of the stupidity of drivers in these areas is evident just today as some D.A. in a semi-truck had to stop quickly at an intersection about a mile from my house because the person in front of him decided NOT to run the red light (the trucker was trying to). Hence, the D.A. semi-truck driver got stuck sitting on the rail road tracks right next to the intersection. You see where this is going...Needless to say, my tax dollars have to be spent to clean up the mess and he's in some hospital in critical condition.
I say leave the cameras up and ones up at every intersection in the country 'cause we might as well earn money off the stupid people. Hopefully the more they fund our government, the less my taxes will go up in the future (Do I believe this? No - but it's a worthwhile dream to have).
Anyways, just in case people were wondering...
Red = STOP!!!
Yellow = STOP!!!!!
Green = Go...and take your life into your own hands.
;-)
-Dean
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Re:
Your personal likes and hatreds aside, the law allows that in most states. If you weren't aware of that, then perhaps you should consider taking some driver education classes. I know, I teach them.
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At least the red-light cameras, if properly financed, have the potential to enforce laws at no net cost to the law-abiding taxpayer. Unless the study cited above is correct, and they actually make intersections less safe.
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Traffic tickets should only written for infractions of the law, not for things that upset you personally.
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Re: Cameras
These speed cameras are generating millions in revenue for the city and when a politician can raise revenue in those amounts without having to raise taxes on the residents even one dime, you better believe they'll do whatever is necessary to maximize it. For that reason it's also no coincidence that almost all these cameras are placed on commuter routes and not residential/business streets. They do that so that most of the people who are ticketed are residents of Maryland or Virginia, not the District. Maryland and Virginia residents can't vote out a DC politician no matter how mad they get over these cameras so they are safe to prey upon.
It's nothing but a commuter tax, pure and simple.
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Swings & Roundabouts
It's worth comparing, not the number of accidents with and without red-light cameras, but their consequences. Running a red light can cause side-on collisions and hitting of pedestrians, while stopping too quickly may make a rear-end collision more likely.
Rear-end collisions are probably some of the least dangerous to have, since they put the maximum amount of car between the people involved.
Besides which, if you run into something stationary, it's your fault. So the rear-end collision is not the fault of the driver who had to stop at the red light.
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Re: Swings & Roundabouts
But a rear end collision from someone who slammed onto the brakes because of a turning yellow is going to get slammed INTO the intersection that is now allowing traffic other direction... often both a rear AND side impact.
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In Chattanooga
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Sorry I don't understand sensationalized headlines too well.
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Nope. That's not it either, but nice try. People who get into accidents aren't blaming the cameras. What's happening is that the number of accidents at many of these cameras is going up, and the only change is the installation of the cameras. That would indicate that, indeed, it is these red light cameras that are causing the accidents.
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People are idiots. THAT is what is causing the accidents. The cameras just sit there.
Cameras are NOT the problem.
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Which part doesn't make sense? If you click on the links you can see all the details you want.
You recently get a ticket somewhere Mike and you a little pissed off maybe?
Nope. Haven't received a ticket since I was 19.
Here's an idea ... follow the rules of the road and don't go through stoplights, then you won't have an accident when the camera goes off!
I do follow the rules and I don't go through stoplights. That's not really, the point, though, is it?
If these cameras are resulting in more accidents, don't you think that's a problem?
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Sure. The second we see a camera fall off the light and hit the cars, we'll blame them.
Until then, stupid people cause accidents.
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Safety.
If accidents went to 0, do you really think they would remove them? No, and No, and Hell No.
P.S. It wasn't a government idea.... it was a private sector idea sold to the government. The public decided to roll over on the issue... but not asking for justification.
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We need more RLC's. From what I learned, the ones who take issue with this are the ones running red lights. It's so prevalent in many urban and suburban areas.
I can't see tax dollars being spent on putting cops on every street corner. That's just not feasible. I think harder enforcement policies might re-educate folks on how to obey traffic signals.
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And just exactly how did you "learn" that? You sound like more like you have some hidden agenda (like maybe a financial interest).
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Redlights
It's the CAMERAS causing the accidents? Not the morons driving through the red lights being caught by the cameras and how they react to them? Are you serious? Say that back to yourself and think about it a minute. Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it? That would be because it is stupid. Just like guns don't kill people, people kill people; these cameras aren't the cause of the accidents. The violators who abruptly stop because they are initially breaking the law are causing the accidents.
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Re: Redlights
It's the CAMERAS causing the accidents?
If the end result is more accidents and the only difference is the camera, why do you not consider that a problem? Studies have shown repeatedly that the way to prevent accidents is to (1) increase the length of time for a yellow light and (2) have a pause before the cross traffic light turns green.
Those are simple solutions that decrease accidents.
This is not about whether or not people are driving poorly. That's happening no matter what. Why not deal with the reality?
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Re: Re: Redlights
Yeah, but how does that increase revenues? That's the most important thing.
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Rounabouts and speed cameras
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Re: Rounabouts and speed cameras
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Don't forget...
That causes a lot of accidents and more tickets.
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Really only thing that sounds "stupid" here is that exceptionally lame argument that the cameras are somehow responsible for people driving poorly. C'Mon!
As for the financial incentive argument. I agree that there is a HUGE issue for others to "game" the system to provide financial gain for the city and for their own camera manufacturing corporation. This part does pose an ongoing problem. Isn't it just as easy for a concerned citizen to capture video on the timing of the lights and run that up to the local news media? Local news channels drool over their little "expose" news pieces.
I'm less concerned about the light timing issue and more concerned about problem traffic areas where you have to wait a full 3 seconds on a green light just to make sure someone doesn't t-bone you because they are running a red light.
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Not really. I did a little research on this subject and attended a few court proceedings. I found a correletion with high insurance rates and red-light runners. (go figure). Mind you, it's not professional research.
Oddly enough, those with the worst traffic records tend to be the most voiciferous when it comes to defending thier poor decision making processes. Also, oddly enough, are the ones with cleaner traffic records who have a tendancy not to argue as much as they should.
This is all public knowlege you know. I do appreciate your skepticism though.
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Cameras causing accidents
You are correct in a way. The red light cameras do not directly cause accidents any more than one-way signs do. What they do, just like the one-way signs, is influence driver behavior.
As you approach a traffic light, it turns yellow. In a split second, your mind calculates how to react. Do you have time to safely stop, what are the road and traffic conditions, etc. Once cameras are established at an intersection, people are much more likely to slam on the brakes and get rear-ended.
Think about that for a second, people who would have otherwise gone safely through an intersection with a yellow light now change their behavior because of the camera. Not due to road conditions, traffic conditions, or any obvious safety concern, but simply because of the camera.
Yes, the people following them should leave plenty of room to stop. The reality is that in normal driving conditions people never expect the person in front of them to slam on their brakes. Try flooring your brake pedal in traffic a few times and I guarantee your risk of an accident will go up dramatically.
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The fact that more accidents of the rear-end type happen isn't the fault of the cameras. If someone rear-ends someone else that could stop, what business did the following car have to even think of running the red light?
Why can't anyone focus on the problem here, rather than just pointing at red light cameras as revenue producers? I don't argue that they do raise money in some cases, but only because drivers continue to drive poorly.
Bring on a real driving test now!!! and get some of the worst drivers off the roads!
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Ignore the turf troll. Here's the link to the Florida article and it says no such thing. What it does say is “Instead, they increase crashes and injuries as drivers attempt to abruptly stop at camera intersections. If used in Florida, cameras could potentially create even worse outcomes due to the state’s high percent of elderly who are more likely to be injured or killed when a crash occurs." The report also analyzes the automobile insurance industry’s financial interest in cameras.
What, you didn't think anyone would check? Time to nym-shift "Mike". You've been exposed.
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People just need to get a clue, pay attention while you are driving, give the person in front of you some extra space (STOP TAILGATING!) and slow to a stop when the light turns yellow, oh no you're probably going to add a whole extra minute or two to your trip! (sarcasm here people). Saving an extra minute on a ten minute drive does not warrent smashing in to someone!
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y'all forgetting one thing
Politicians love it because they get thier palms greased by the insurance companies. If cameras made no revenue for someone they simply would not exist. Follow the money.
And of course it like it because I like to see the burgers, coffees and cell phones head toward the windshield in my rear view mirror.
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I wasn't trashing you, but maybe you should put a bit more effort in your original article before reading other blogs and then adding to your story with contradictions.
See, that's what its like when I try to trash you.
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I take issue with red light cameras and your claim that you learned that I run red lights from visiting court is a bald faced lie because I don't. You're just an example of the kind of lying scum that's trying to push these things.
Wow! I don't recall implicating you personally with anything I wrote. Hmmm.. let's look back upon this lively conversation and find even ONE POSTING that reads "Some person under the handle of 'anonymous coward' routinely runs red lights." You'll find that nobody said anything like that.
You seem to have taken this waay too personally. Lighten up jerk.
Regardless of your beliefs, I took the time out of my own schedule to educate myself on something that I wanted to know more about. I formulated my own opinion, which I have a right to have. That doesn't make me scum. In fact, I think your a fascist pig for saying that.
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You know, I really like the fact that Techdirt doesn't allow liars like you to go back and cover their tracks by editing their previous posts. It's also interesting watching a liar trying to cover up a previous lie with even more lies.
Let's see..., yep there it is, and I quote, "From what I learned, the ones who take issue with this are the ones running red lights". That's pretty plain and would include me as one of the ones who take issue with red light cameras. And that was a lie. What are you going to claim now, that it was a different FWIW that wrote that? And yes, for lying about me like that you are scum.
I'm starting to think you're an industry shill. Well, you aren't doing them any favors the way you've been posting here. You're only serving to make the red light camera industry look even more dishonest than it already did. I hope you've got every last cent you could scrape together invested in it and loose it all.
And you need to look up the word "fascist". I don't think it means what you think it means. As if though you would care anyway.
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Re: Re:
That was generalization on my part. That is my opinion. Stop faking your own self-righteousness. I wrote what I wrote and I'm standing by what I wrote.
If you have issues with it then that's your issue.
Looking back on your numerous negative comments all over this thread I can see how little enlightenment your offering to what could otherwise be a good discussion on a much debated topic.
Your comments, self-rightesousness, flaming, and useless logic serves to discredit you.
So I hurt your feelings. Good. You deserve that.
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You stated it as fact.
I wrote what I wrote and I'm standing by what I wrote. If you have issues with it then that's your issue.
But if you really think that way, then come on out from behind your anonymity and post your identity. Then maybe we can let a court decide the issue of defamation.
Yeah, I didn't think so.
Oh well, maybe I can subpoena some logs. You just might not be as anonymous as you think.
So I hurt your feelings. Good. You deserve that.
So you admit to purposeful injury. Do you have any other admissiions to add? You're helping my case considerably.
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RLC
In the end, it is up to you, the driver to be prepared for anything that can go wrong, to go wrong...think I may have heard that before, maybe they may have mentioned it when I was learning to drive.. or a number of times on this page... LOL
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RLC
In the end, it is up to you, the driver to be prepared for anything that can go wrong, to go wrong...think I may have heard that before, maybe they may have mentioned it when I was learning to drive.. or a number of times on this page... LOL
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Can we trust them?
"Wow, I never imagined that so many people would come out in favor handing over their safety and local law-enforcement to a company that has every incentive to increase the number of citations issued."
We have red-light cameras at a major intersection near my house. I have seen the flashes go off at the strangest times, when the photographed vehicle doesn't look at all like it's running the light.
While I haven't gotten a ticket at any of these, given what I've seen, I would demand to see the source code of the device, so I can be certain it's programmed properly.
Given how easy it is to screw with stuff like that, I can't believe how implicitly people trust these machines to regulate our lives.
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Study
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