California Refuses To Play By Real ID Rules
from the waiting-it-out dept
The Department of Homeland Security's "Real ID" program is a classic case of "security theater." It's a project designed to give the appearance of increased security, but which will actually do the opposite (and cost a ton of taxpayer dollars at the same time). The good (and somewhat surprising) thing, is that almost everyone (outside of DHS) seems to recognize this. Not a single state plans to implement the rules by the original deadline. DHS has been granting "extensions" to states that promise to implement the rules by 2010 while threatening to make drivers' licenses no longer valid IDs for things like boarding airplanes or entering federal buildings for any state that doesn't comply. While there are a few states that haven't even asked for an extension, California asked for an extension while saying clearly that it wasn't promising to implement Real ID at all -- but would use the extension to study the matter. This was a test, and DHS has backed down, granting the extension, allowing California drivers' licenses to remain legitimate federal IDs. This could give more confidence to other states to not just blindly implement Real ID. At this point, you have to think that many states are just waiting this out, assuming that there will be a change in management at DHS after the election this November, and the whole concept of Real ID will get changed or scrapped.
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Filed Under: california, homeland security, real id
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Yea the REAL ID sounds like a stupid idea. I'd love to see a state refuse and then that state's senators and representatives not be able to go to work.
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Real ID
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/29jan20081800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/08-140 .htm
Section 202(b) of the Act directs that REAL ID-compliant licenses
and identification cards must include the following information:
(1) The person's full legal name, date of birth, and gender;
(2) The person's driver's license or identification card number;
(3) A digital photograph of the person;
(4) The person's address of principal residence;
(5) The person's signature;
(6) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering,
counterfeiting, or duplication of the driver's licenses and
identification cards for fraudulent purposes; and
(7) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum
elements.
Section 202(c) of the Act also mandates certain minimum standards
that States must adopt when issuing driver's licenses and
identification cards intended for use for official purposes (referred
to as REAL ID-compliant cards). Those standards include, but are not
limited to, the following:
The State shall require, at a minimum, presentation and
verification of (1) A photo identity document (except that a non-photo
identity document is acceptable if it includes both the applicant's
full legal name and date of birth); (2) documentation showing the
applicant's date of birth; (3) proof of the person's Social Security
Number (SSN) or verification that the applicant is not eligible for a
SSN; and (4) documentation showing the applicant's name and address of
principal residence. Sec. 202(c).
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Re: Real ID
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Re: Re: Real ID
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Re: Real ID
I may have missed something in a past article or some link somewhere. Why is this a bad thing? Is it just people being against one large database where ID information is stored compared to 50 or so smaller databases?
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Re: Real ID
I'm all proud of my state, NH, for not going with this crap.
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SAY NOW TO REAL ID!!! ... or suffer like the Jews!
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Well...
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Turn up the heat
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Re: Turn up the heat
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Re: Turn up the heat
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SCARY.
yeahhhh...
I'm moving to Canada.
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fascism
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm
Watch part three!
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Falindraun is Real Retarded
Maybe he should go fight for freedumb some more.
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A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum
elements. Vague isn't it? Thats BigBro for you.
Yes, some low-tech this is implemented in the security strip on your DL now. However, this only encodes a digital representation of your fingerprint. However, if they up the ante with new technology such as RFID, your entire dossier can (and will) be stored on your 'Real ID'. Walk through a door set to scan those RFID, and you have a convenient, government issue personal tracking device.
If you are in the military, you have already committed your servitude to the government and their whims... And I wholeheartedly commend you for it. However, this is not something that should be initiated on the populous. It is NOT for our own good. Do you honestly think it will be easier to find people who are not supposed to be here by instigating a citizen tracking system? It will just entrap the legal populace and make it slightly harder to stay hidden.
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Get a clue before you comment
Let’s dispel the rumors and misinformation first. So I guess we need to start with the comment from our friend AJ – sorry dude but Real ID has nothing to do with your SS#:
“I'm not paranoid, nor am i a criminal, however, I don't think i like the fact that my state may be storing my ssn on my drivers license. I keep my ssn card in a safe, and other than that i try not to ever give it out. I really don't see a need for that info to be on a bar code on my license or any other state issued card other than my ss card. I feel safe as it is, I am not prepared to give up my privacy for security. I understand there is risk, thats ok, there is risk in everything we do.”
Another big WOW - nowhere in the Real ID information is there any mention of storing your SS# on the id – dude, read up before you comment or just go back to trying to Google nudie pictures of Agent Scully.
I want everyone to think about this fact: the majority of all of the 9/11 terrorist that flew the planes into the World Trade Center boarded those planes with real VA drivers licenses obtained by showing fraudulent breeder documents. One of the goals of Real ID is to make it tougher to obtain an ID or drivers license with fake or altered documents.
Gee – that sound awful doesn’t it? Why would we want to make it harder for illegal immigrants and terrorist to get US ID’s?
And really, do you honestly believe that there’s any information that will go on a Real ID that the government can’t already obtain with a keystroke about you? Listen people, years ago the military disclosed that they have satellite technology that can read the mint mark off of a dime laying on the ground from outer space. You thing that if the government wants to know the titles of the dirty movies that you rent or with whom you’re cheating on your spouse with that they can’t find out? Please, then you need to get with the Get Real Act.
Real ID is attempting to establish some strict guidelines aimed at making it more difficult for someone to illegally obtain or fraudulently alter an ID or drivers license. This has nothing to do with tracking who or what you are and or do.
If you’re some conspiracy theorist feel free to email me directly and I’ll be more than happy to share some things with you regarding technology that’s already out there and in use by major corporations that will really make you wonder about who it is that cares about what you do with whom, where you do it, how often, and if you while sitting at that stoplight last Monday on your way to work what you did with that booger that you picked out of your left nostril!
Get a grip – Real ID will not be axed by the next President and states will be required to comply and you should be happy about it. This one really is about protecting America and legal Americans.
No I don't work for any branch of the government and yes I do know 100% about what I'm talking about...
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Re: Get a clue before you comment
sorry dude but Real ID has nothing to do with your SS#:
Actually, it does. If you read the comment above posting the rules for a RealID it says "(3) proof of the person's Social Security Number (SSN) or verification that the applicant is not eligible for a SSN;"
So, they do want your number. For now it is just to prove you have one, but I think having to provide it is silly anyway. How many identity theft victims are there out there just because their SSN was stolen?
Another big WOW - nowhere in the Real ID information is there any mention of storing your SS# on the id dude, read up before you comment or just go back to trying to Google nudie pictures of Agent Scully.
You thing that if the government wants to know the titles of the dirty movies that you rent or with whom you're cheating on your spouse with that they can't find out? Please, then you need to get with the Get Real Act.
This is where I think you are being awfully trusting. The comment above (again, I assume you haven't read it) Clearly states "(7) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum elements."
They are very vague in saying WHAT those elements are. For now, maybe it is just your name, birth date, and residence. What about in the future? Maybe the government will decide to start listing any criminal activity.
If you are arrested, the record it on your RealID. Maybe they will record personal information about you like family members or common telephone numbers, vehicles you own, or other "information" they deem is necessary for the interest of public safety. Don't you think the government would look at something to help officers know who they are dealing with just by swiping an ID card?
While storing information like this might seem like a great way to cut down on crime and keep our public safety officers safer on the streets, to what degree of freedom are we willing to give up for that? An ID card that has my whole life on it. If it got stolen, I guarantee criminals will figure out how to hack into them and find out all about my life.
So, I say no RealID card. Do I think the government is interested in tracking me personally? No, not at all. But the allure of a "public safety" tool might be too much for a corrupt government.
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Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
And - the government is only putting the security requirements out there. It's up to each state to choose from a number of different security technologies out there. There is no big government database of your info based upon Real ID. Branches of the government already has all of the info that they need about you - believe me I'm fully aware that there is no such thing as privacy anymore but Real ID has nothing at all to do with this.
ID's and drivers licenses will still be issued and controlled by the state - the government is just saying lets secure the document that allows you to do just about anything....
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Re: Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
Then why not just make the requirements different rather than everyone having to go out and buy a RealID. See, you will not be able to just get a Driver's license and have that count as identification. You will need a state issued driver's license AND this RealID. If they government was only interested in "Securing the document" they would just change the laws required for obtaining state ids and diver's licenses to be more secure.
The fact that they are requiring a completely separate ID from the ones states already issue sets off a big red flag in my head.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
And by each state getting to to choose from a grouping of different security features it makes cracking every state a little tougher.
You people don't even know this?
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Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
There are 100's of other issues that have to be resolved to help and I'm I member of an non-profit organization of industry experts that works with the gov to point out where we need to focus regarding information security - and I am the first person to point out holes.
And if don't think that I couldn't become you with just your SS# please feel free to post it. Really I don't even need it. But with just your SS# In less then 30 days I could be more you then you are now. The only people that wouldn't know that I wasn't you would be your family, and I could probably make them think twice about it...
In order to begin to fix a problem you have to know how the problem occurs. And again, I'm an expert...
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Re: Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
If that's true then you are doing a bad job considering the P2P information leaks and laptops being stolen with sensitive information on them. I think the government needs to focus on securing themselves and worry less about securing the citizens.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
Do you know how you eat an elephant?
One bite at a time...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
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I'm an Information Security expert, too.
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Re: I'm an Information Security expert, too.
This is about the security of the DL or ID and of verifying that you are who you say you are. That's it.
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Re: Re: I'm an Information Security expert, too.
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Re: Re: Re: I'm an Information Security expert, to
And guess what's next, Birth Certificates. There are over 5000 different BC's printed around the country.
They are the easiest breeder document to fake in the country and people hold them in such high regard. I have 7, all with big stamps stating "Not a real document" that I put on them but everyone of them looks real... I use them to show people that we make it easy for illegals and terrorist to become Americans.
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Re: Get a clue before you comment
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Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
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Re: Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
"Our suggestions?" Who is "our"? Who do you represent?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
The "our" that I refered to is non-profit industry expert groups that write white papers and reports pointing out problems and making general suggestions regarding solutions.
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Re: Get a clue before you comment
http://www.turbulence.org/Works/swipe/state_analysis.html
plenty of states are storing your ssn on the bar code,
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Re: Re: Get a clue before you comment
Holy Crap!!!
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Re: Get a clue before you comment
I already have a Real ID, my military ID but unfortunately my government will not let me drive with this ID.
Your point about terrorist using fraudulent breeder documents to obtain drivers licenses from VA may be true. But really human breeder documents? I am sure this act is costing us nothing to make sure our breeder documents are valid.
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Real ID
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Re: Real ID
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Website with the Act and other information
Here - everyone go read up first; http://www.secure-license.org/cms/index.php
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My problem with RealID...
Furthermore, my personal information, including my fingerprint, is more important to me than a bit of terrorism that may or may not be stopped by this ID. I am not willing to trade freedom for safety - and in this case it's just the perception of safety.
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Re: My problem with RealID...
Believe me - the substrate cost for a Real ID would cost more then $20 on the street. Some of the technology is worth millions. And guess what the government did develop or profit from any of it!
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Re: Re: My problem with RealID...
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Re: Re: My problem with RealID...
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What about Minnesota?
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%CAPALO ALTO^mylastname$myfirstname$mymiddlename^mystreetaddress^?
;15digitnumber=10mmyyyy99dd?
two lines, broken between the ? and ;.
i live in palo alto, the last 7 digits of the 15 digit number are the numbers on the front of my licence, i dont know what the 10 is for (glasses?, year it expires?, prob. the expiration), then comes my birth date, with 99 separating the day from the month and year. all the symbols appear exactly as i put them. there are also start characters (look like a smiley in hyper terminal) before each line. the first line ends with a new line character (triangle pointing right) and the last line ends with an end character (looks like a heart).
the 8th to last digit in the 15 digit number is 4 and the number on the front of my license starts with D, but that may just be coincidence.
no hair color, eye color, height, weight, picture or signature data, as far as i can tell. (that stuff is printed on the card, for those that dont know)
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knock, knock at your front door,
it's the suade denim secret police,
they've come for you uncool niece..."
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doh....
Sam is a wolf in wolves clothing.
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Re: doh....
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Re: doh....
I'm informed, and am a member of numerous organizations that work within the information security marketplace. Believe me there are a lot of programs that I have just outright disagreed with but this one is a good start.
Is it perfect, no – like I stated earlier the only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time…
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What about the ridiculous costs
If the cost of ID's rose along with having to buy these new high-tech garbage cards then I just wouldn't buy one. While this wont affect people who have money to throw around a little wiggle-room so to speak, anyone who is in the poorer class cannot afford these. It would just make them try and fake the cards, or for that matter just not travel anywhere anymore. This Real ID would limit poor peoples chance at traveling or being able to do things they normally would have. Also, there is alot of theft, and when you put anything down on paper, card, plastic, metal, doesn't matter. Someone, sometime will steal it, and that'll be the end of you and your identity. I trust my drivers licsense becuase it is simple, and straight to the point. Sure, impriove the drivers licsense, but to create a whole new card I have to carry around in addition to? no thanks, I have enough crap in my wallet.
Thirdly, I'd rather spend the money on helping people get out of poverty, maybe spend the billions it would take to manufacture these cards in bulk, and the effort of distributing them, and spend it on creating jobs( run by the gov't) for people who have no jobs or education. GET THEM OFF WELFARE! it'lll make everyone happy, even them.
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Re: What about the ridiculous costs
Geez people - quit it with the dumb comments. This is not going to cost a the tax payers a dime more other than you might have to pay a buck or two more for a DL or ID.
But it will end up saving the tax payers money. Fraud cost the average family over $700 every year - believe me, when the hospitals, insurance companies, or banks get ripped off we all pay for it.
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Re:
And that's only one of the overall savings...
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Everybody just jumps up and says it must be a way for the gov to track you, it will cost us millions, spend the money on the poor... Holy crap none of you have even read the act, have you?
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Re:
If this is your first time commenting, you've picked up the ad hominem flame technique quite quickly.
Everybody just jumps up and says it must be a way for the gov to track you, it will cost us millions, spend the money on the poor... Holy crap none of you have even read the act, have you?
Are you saying that it won't cost millions?
http://www.ncsl.org/standcomm/scbudg/REALIDANALYSIS_Sept06.htm
It's not hard to find good *independent* researchers who point out the problems with Real ID. And to brush aside those who prove you wrong by claiming they're clueless is rather weak.
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/01/realid_costs_an.html
http://www.cato.org/tes timony/ct-jh041106.html
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Clue
http://www.turbulence.org/Works/swipe/state_analysis.html
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Re: Clue
A little more info for everyone.
There's not a state in the US that has an Information Security Officer or anyone who guides how information should be secured but if you're a public company with over $50 million in stock you have to have one. Doesn't make any sense does it?
So in the end the gov steps in and creates a set of guidelines to move states into providing a more secure document for the people that live there.
Has anyone every heard of HIPAA? Gee it was such a bad thing and would cost billions - why should doctors and hospitals protect a persons health information. "We're not going to do, we'll fight it and you can't enforce it." My butt - it's happening now and its about time.
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alright...
can I take the card out of my wallet and stab someone with it?
maybe throw it like a ninja star?
it's alright though... keep telling yourself that this will stop the "terrorists" and "illegals". you may have no problem with being nothing more than a number...maybe the rest of us do.
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Re: alright...
What can't people understand - the gov has nothing to do with it other then creating a set of guidelines.
If it's harder to get a DL maybe the next freaking terrorist won't be able to board a plane. Maybe some illegal won't get a fake ID that says he's a US citizen and go to the hospital on your dime.
Do I even need to go on?
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Re: Re: alright...
And guess what, you're already a number to everyone - gov or business, we all are, get used to it.
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Re: Re: alright...
Maybe I won't have to pay for some illegals 13 child to be born becuase he couldn't get a DL using stolen info.
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Re: Re: Re: alright...
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Re: alright...
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ok....
and since when is the "state" not the government??
you know... water is awful hard to hold in a paper bag there Sam.
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Re: ok....
And the state will be storing less information because they'll only need to verify a couple of key items and not place all your info into a crackable bar code like some do now.
Dude - I have to say it, go back to playing second life of what ever you do. Leave the important stuff up to people that take the time to review all of the information because you haven't and I'm sure that you never do...
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See, what would make me feel safer is a government that didn't try to impose it's will on the rest of the world. We take down dictators and terrorists in some place, but prop them up and train them in others. An ID card won't stop that now will it? Didn't think so. Now go wave your flag!!
Next!!!!
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Re:
No, it's not going to stop everything but if it stops one plane from getting flow into a building it's worth it. You're not losing any freedom you stupid moron.
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Re:
Are you even in the US - or are you typing from somewhere in the middle east there Abu?
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exactly
and yes, I am in the US, neo-con. now, like I said go wave your flag before I burn it.
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Re: exactly
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Re: exactly
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Re: exactly
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My point is..
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not federal??
SEC. 202. MINIMUM DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUANCE STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.
(a) Minimum Standards for Federal Use.--
(1) In general.--Beginning 3 years after the date of the enactment of this division, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.
(2) State certifications.--The Secretary shall determine whether a State is meeting the requirements of this section based on certifications made by the State to the Secretary. Such certifications shall be made at such times and in such manner as the Secretary, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation, may prescribe by regulation.
hmmm... the Secretary (Chertoff) works for BushCo. right??
but i know.. it's state run... and if my state doesn't abide by the standards then I can't travel. Thanks. And once I have supplied all this information it goes where?? They just look at it and say.. "ok, here you go" ?? or does it get stored somewhere maybe??
I think the water is draining out of your paper bag now Sam.
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i guess
Terrorists can't board a plane here in the states. Great.
oh... wait... what if they hi-jack one from say... Canada?
Then what? no, you're right... we would be safe from everything with the new card. Hell, my daughters allergies might even go away. I feel much better now.
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I do not like green eggs and SpAM M
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