Are College Lectures Covered By Copyright?
from the careful-when-you-take-notes dept
For a while now, I've been meaning to do a post on how the very idea of our education system seems to go against what copyright maximalists believe concerning the ownership of ideas. After all, so much of what any of us knows we learned from someone else in schools -- yet, we don't feel the need to credit our second grade teacher every time we do basic arithmetic. Unfortunately, it looks like the maximalist view is moving more into some college campuses. Against Monopoly points us to a story of a textbook publisher who is suing a company called Einstein's Notes that takes notes in classes and sells them to students. Most colleges have services like this, but the publisher, Faulkner Press, is claiming that Einstein's Notes is violating its own copyright and the professor's copyright on the lectures.Of course, we thought that the purpose of a textbook was to educate people so that they would naturally take that information and do more with it. Some may claim that Faulkner's claim makes sense since Einstein's Notes are selling the note taking service, meaning that it's "making money" on the lectures. However, that's pretty weak when you think about it. After all, if that were true, wouldn't professors (and textbook publishers) then have a claim to anyone's earnings that were based on what they learned from the lecture and the text? I still have a bunch of textbooks from college that I consult at times. If I use something that I learned from an economics professor or textbook to help build my business, have I violated a copyright? Where do you draw the line?
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Filed Under: college, copyright, education, lectures
Companies: einstein's notes, faulkner press
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I am not a lawyer
You can not patent a number, an algorithm, or a thought process.
You can not trademark ah ... help me out here.
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Re: I am not a lawyer
Anyway, you're 100% correct. One cannot copyright a fact...but one can be sued into non-existence by someone who thinks they can.
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Re: Re: I am not a lawyer
But they were able to force Auto Shack to change their name to Auto Zone.
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Re: I am not a lawyer
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Re: I am not a lawyer
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I guess they are worried that people may get their hands the material and not enroll in the university...
Or that other universities may copy the lectures?
This is stupid.
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Re: distribution of videos etc from college lectures
--Glenn
8]
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Re: Re: distribution of videos etc from college lectures
Right. A lawsuit will teach them a lesson they won't soon forget. Oh, wait...
Damn.
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Re: Re: distribution of videos etc from college lectures
--Glenn
8]
Now that you put it that way, I would like to introduce Face to Palm.
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Re:
Streaming = downloading. Why can't people as smart as professors figure that out? If can be downloaded, it can be saved for later use. Sure, they can make "saving" the file "cumbersome" to some degree but that's it.
Universities aren't in the business of selling information, and it's time that they learn that. Any knowledge or information you can get from a university can be obtained freely or cheaply elsewhere. Universities are in the business of selling guidance and certificates. Somehow they don't understand their own business model.
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ADA is the trump card
I'm partially deaf and wish I'd had access to a service like this when I was in college.
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Wow......
After wading through the complaint filed with the federal district court, all appendices, Florida Law, The University of Florida policy implementing the pertinent section of Florida Law (Section 1004.23 of the Florida Statutes), and other related sources, all I can say is that I am flabbergasted by this situation and do encourage the alleged infringer to retain counsel who actually specializes in this area of law. Based upon what I have read I have serious doubts that that this complaint will to any significant degree get past a motion by the defendant to have the case dismissed.
Even I, one who does support IP law as useful and appropriate in many instances, have to scratch my head and wonder just what the heck the two professors and the publisher are thinking. I can only begin to imagine the PR fiasco that will surely follow once this situation is brought to the attention of the Florida Legislature and the Florida Universities Board of Governers.
Excuse me, but I have to stop here in order to shake my head in amazement!
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Re: Wow......
I am the attorney for Faulkner Press. You should be happy to know that the Defendants have retained Edwards, Angell, Palmer & Dodge... certainly able counsel.
If you would like a copy of Judge Mickle's order denying the Defendants' Motion to Dismiss, I will be happy to forward that to you.
Jim Sullivan
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I don't think that copyrighting texts/lectures has much to do with protecting information as it does the presentation of it. All of the information found in a typical text book is completely free already, but starts out scattered in journals and papers (and other books). It's an enormous task to bring that information into a text, and to do it in a fashion that can be absorbed. A monetary incentive for doing an otherwise thankless job is probably appropriate. Imagine spending a couple years of your life organizing good lecture notes or a text book, just to find that some snot nosed kid was copying your work and getting paid for it... a transcription service for people -in- the course doesn't seem so bad, but broadly disseminating to people not paying for the course seems wrong.
I deeply admire the type who do this for free (wikipedia/wikibooks), but you can't fault people who want to get paid for it.
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Re: copyrights
--Glenn
P.S. Too bad a manuscript was never accepted, I suppose.
-- http://oregonnerd.livejournal.com/ is a blog.
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Re: Re: copyrights
Nope. That is incorrect. Anything is copyrighted at the moment it's made these days. It used to not be that way, but now it is.
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Re: can't fault people who want to get paid
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The whole idea is ridiculous, unless you're copying it word-for-word, there's not even a possible case here.
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Re:
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How about... You cannot copyright a paraphrase.
This is exactly the same as a newspaper reporter sitting in on the class and writing a story from the lecture. In lawyerspeak those notes are original work product and belong to the taker.
(I am not a lawyer, but I was a newspaper reporter. I took plenty of notes on classes, lectures, etc. and reproduced them in print in great detail.)
This is idiotic.
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So in the first instance the professor must not breach copyright of the book by using it in an unlawful manner.
Now if the Professor hasn't breached any copyrights in creating his lecture then it becomes a matter between him and Einstien Notes as to whether they are breaching his copyright.
The Professor being the creater of the work (lecture) owns the copyright of his work unless there is a specific work contract that assigns the copyright to his employer (the University).
There is an implied right for students to use his entire work for the purposes that it was created - study, take notes, research, keep as reference etc.
It is not clear to me that this right would extend to a third party like Einstien Notes so if I were EN I would negotiate directly with the good Lecturers and offer them a royalty on their work. The book publisher doesn't have a leg to stand on in my opinion so don't bother with them.
doug
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I side with the professor
He does some research work on his own. He does a performance (i.e., he gives a lecture). He is paid for the performance (because that's his job). Any derivative work (such as a book or a printed set of lecture notes) should remain in his own copyright unless explicitly given to the University as part of the contract.
In particular, I believe someone taking notes in his class could be in many ways considered as a bootleg recorder at ta concert. There could be differences between the bootleg and the official recording that could give reasons to think of atwo unique works (e.g., the recording angle, the noise from the audience, and so on), but they are usually not sufficient to give dignity and legality to a bootleg recording. Even if the recording are taken with the permission of the venue's owner.
So if I am playing at a pub, and the pub's owner records my performance without informing me or asking permissions, and sells these recordings without giving me a share, then the pub's owner is at fault I would say. There should be explicit provisions for the recording (and for the revenues deriving from them) in the contract I signed with the pub.
Also, as far as I know, the professor could take these notes and turn them into a proper book, and the University would not own a cent of that coypright, because book copyright (even on material used for lectures at the University) is never relinquished to the employer. And the existence of published lecture notes in the market would definitely harm the sales of this book, and this would be exactly a violation of his copyright.
So unless the professor explicitly relinquished copyright to the university within his hiring contract, I would say that the professor has lots of reasons and justification to sue.
Just my 2 cents.
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Re: I side with the professor
Suppose the pub's owner doesn't make an exact recording, but instead writes a paragraph or two explaining what the song lyrics were about. The paragraphs do not quote whole verses or even whole lines of your lyrics. If he somehow sells copies of these paragraphs, does he owe you money? Even supposing you had written the song, I would have trouble seeing how a crime has been committed.
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Re: I side with the professor
Wow, when 90% of america is commiting copyright infringement, I think it's maybe time to legalise it.
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Re: Re: I side with the professor
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Re: I side with the professor
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learning
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Can't stand this
He was teaching us MUS110, Western Music History. This was the most vague and introductory of courses. We covered nearly a millennium in 13 weeks, basically reading out of an overpriced textbook.
I couldn't believe it.
We were paying him to teach us this stuff. There was virtually no individual thought in the presentation of it. No one was in a rush to sell bootlegged copies of Prof. Johnston's lectures on the street. No one was rushing to see if they had surfaced on file sharing networks that afternoon. Yet, he was putting up barriers for students in his class.
It's beyond me what he thought he was protecting himself from...
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Re: Can't stand this
(Note that I'm not saying this is right or wrong, and indeed, I believe that our legal system has been weakened by too many diaper-wearing crybabies screaming about violations of their so-called legal rights.)
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Re: Re: Can't stand this
I didn't fight him over it because a) I didn't know enough about "intellectual property" law at the time, and b) I don't record lectures myself.
Damn, it was obnoxious though.
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Re: Can't stand this
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It's a mix
As a legal issue, this could be complex. It's a legitimate intellectual property case, and the right place for it is in the courts.
The professor does have some rights, the university has some, the students have some, and, though I like these people less, the textbook publisher and the notes reseller have some as well.
The professor doesn't own the facts, and the idea that he or she could have a claim on student's earnings is pretty silly. The idea that there are one set of "facts", however, and that professors just say them out loud and that's all there is to it, is also ridiculous. The presentation itself is a performance, a work, and is due certain protections. For example, if one professor copies another's lecture word for word, that's dishonest. A student is free to use what he or she learns, but fair use comes into play when that student or anyone is simply recording the performance (in notes or any other way) for resale.
Depending on the university's IP policy, though, the performance may be 'work for hire', not the property of the professor him or herself. An express clause to that effect may not be necessary - accepting pay for work is enough to potentially cede some rights.
The student has a right to his or her notes, and may use any IP involved in any manner consistent with fair use. If he or she creates and sells derivative works, it's questionable, but a court will have to decide whether something has actually been stolen and the burden of proof is on the owner of the IP, not the student.
Textbook publishers don't own the facts, but they have rights to their books, the way things are presented, visuals, etc. You can't just photocopy the whole thing and sell it. Fair use does apply. On the other hand, the claim that they own notes taken during a lecture in a class using their text is questionable. I doubt it.
The note reseller "Einstein's Notes" has the most tenuous claim to what they're selling, but they also have some legal rights. The question of who owns the IP they resell has to be settled, is all.
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public money - public information
I could understand private universities, but what about the ones funded with 'taxpayer dollars?'
It seems to me that a lecture given by a professor being paid with our tax dollars should automatically be in the public domain.
Maybe one could go so far as to demand that lectures given at schools who accept federal grants also be in the public domain. This way, everybody could learn something.
The real value of going to the school and participating in the class is the degree they give you. Joe Schmoe can't claim 'I listened to x amount of lectures that equals a degree' now, can he?
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Re: public money - public information
It's an interesting idea. Tax dollars only pay a percentage (something like 17% at our university, last I heard). I'm not philosophically opposed to the free distribution of information, but existing IP law would have to be changed.
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your understanding of referencing and citation is too simplistic
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Class Lectures are copyrighted and should be
But the lecture is copyright and the original creation of the lecturer. I am being given personal license to possess the notes but that is not a transmissable licence.
Now I don't think a notes service, who sells exclusively to the students enrolled in a course, are infringing on the copyright. Because they are only providing a limited service of writing down the class notes, where the lecturer isn't providing them directly to the student. Better and more valuable is for the lecturer to produce and distribute the notes as part of the class. Which my profs do. Good schools give good services.
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Re: Class Lectures are copyrighted and should be
Also the copyright law gives a huge exclusion to information being used for the expressed purpose of learning. All academic research uses the works of others as its foundation. Einstein's laws of relativity, for example, came about because of the work of Newton, Kepler and those whoo came before.
In 20 years, you may be repeating what your professor lectured to you as you lecture to a new generation of students. That's how knowledge advances.
You are certainly free to show your comrades your notes. There's noo law against it.
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This varies by university and publisher
No, a professor doesn't own "the facts" (no one does, Mike...I'm sure you know that). But, he/she certainly does have copyright on the materials he/she produces. For example, the Powerpoint slides and/or handouts I produce for class are covered by copyright (again, whether the prof or the college owns that (c) is dependent on the policy in force; at my university, profs retain (c) on all educational materials).
There's a difference between "knowledge" (i.e., the info contained in a textbook) and the textbook's contents. The textbook's contents are (c)ed because the (c) covers their presentation, layout, organization, etc. The ideas presented therein are not protected by copyright (that's where patents may come into play).
I think if more people understood these legal concepts, (a) there'd be less gnashing of teeth on boards like this, and (b) there'd be less confusion over what, exactly, is under dispute.
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Re: This varies by university and publisher
However, Einstein's notes seems like the old Cliff Notes model. Shame on the professors for tests purely from the book.
Thinking back, I have to say one of my favorite professors taught an advanced International Business course. Bill had first hand experience of WalMart strategy, and taught a great deal from first hand experience. I took a lot away a lot from that course, much more than what was in that International Business book.
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It's like Vanilla Ice trying to claim that he wasn't ripping off Queen and David Bowie.
Free distribution is one thing, and really that's at the professors discretion, but making money off of someone else's work is wrong in any business. This is why we have patents and copyrights: to protect and compensate innovation.
So many hippies who haven't created a damn thing in their lives think everything should be free. Have someone rob a great idea of yours and we'll see how quickly you rush in to defend intellectual property.
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Re:
Free distribution is one thing, and really that's at the professors discretion, but making money off of someone else's work is wrong in any business.
Can you explain why? Back here in the real world, that tends to be what leads to innovation and growth. You build on each others' ideas.
This is why we have patents and copyrights: to protect and compensate innovation.
That would be great if it were true. But it is not. Copyright and patents were never designed to protect innovation, but to encourage it. It's a vital difference. And, most of the research has shown that it does not do so.
So many hippies who haven't created a damn thing in their lives think everything should be free. Have someone rob a great idea of yours and we'll see how quickly you rush in to defend intellectual property.
As I've made clear, people copy stuff from Techdirt all the time, quite often without credit. Some folks are making quite a bit of money off of what we've done on Techdirt. More power to them. If anything, it just gives me more incentive to improve what I'm doing.
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Copyright and Ideas
So no professors do not have a claim on students learning, but can ask that they not copy and pass off as theirs any direct copy of the expression. Also saying 2+2=4 is a common fact not something copyrightable as an expression, so the math teacher issue is not accurate.
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Hard Sell
If professors are teaching just for money, they're in the wrong business. It sounds to me like another middle man is pissed off that someone else may be making a buck while they're not. They probably hang around the RIAA at lunch ;)
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Your analogy is a bit slanted
What IS protectable by copyright is the creative expression used to present the facts and ideas.
If the note-taking service goes anywhere beyond facts and ideas, and actually lifts the lecturer's creative expression (e.g., helpful analogies, clever mnemonics, a unique arrangement or presentation of the facts, or anything else that was the creation of that lecturer), then, arguably, they are infringing one or more copyrights in the lecture.
If all they're doing is just distilling the pure facts/ideas out of each lecture, and presenting them with nothing else, then, arguably, they're not copying anything protected by a copyright in the first place.
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uhhh...
Seriously, some folks have got to stop taking these career students (also known as, ahem... professors) so seriously. The liberal arts faculties in our university system are idiotic at the least.
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There is no line
There is no line, based on all these ridiculous claims of "infringement", the copyright holders assert that they are owed revenue based on any arbitrary and capricious decision they make. Not only that, copyright holders even claim they don't have to abide by due process to declare "infringement" and even claim the right to force third parties to "protect" their copyright.
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Of course it has copyright
What gets me is that the copyright holders in this story are **choosing** not to explicitly grant permission for others to use their copyrighted material in this way. It's educational material, for goodness sake! What good is it if it can't be copied!
Personally, if I were a professor and had the ability by my employer, I would explicitly make all of my (albeit copyrighted) material available to anyone. Looks like the MIT Open Courseware stuff is under the Creative commons BY-NC-SA license. Brilliant! That gives them full control over their material and they **choose** to make it available to anyone, to copy and modify however they want, for any purpose as long as they're not selling it. That's the *spirit* of education and, if you ask me, the Internet.
Faulkner Press needs to step up and learn something truly valuable here.
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the "notesellers" are selling a republication on a student's version of the lecture.
what's the phrase...copy from one, it's infringement, copy from many, it's research?
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Copyright in lectures
That said, instructional lectures are copyrightable under the separate copyright laws of some states. I remember that at least one state passed legislation protecting copyright interest in lectures back when I was in law school, deliberately to mess with a lecture notetaking service.
If this action is brought under federal copyright law I would expect it to be dismissable for failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted. However, that presumes that the defendant has good enough counsel.
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Re: Copyright in lectures
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Re: Re: Copyright in lectures
And if Einstein's Notes were making photocopies of the professor's written notes then that would be a different situation from what is being reported.
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English 101
At the onset of the class, I asked her if she minded me recording her lectures, to which she replied not at all, then another student asked if she could have a copy of the recordings (I was using my laptop so they were easy to email) so after asking the teacher if she had a problem with it (and she said no) I emailed the recordings to the other student.
By this logic, I was breaking the law by distributing it, I was breaking the law by recording it, and my teacher who has been head of the English department for 8 years at that time (3 years ago) was also breaking the law. Are you kidding me?
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The University of Florida is a public university. The professor is a state employee who is being paid to teach, and, of course, a necessary incident of that is to prepare and present lectures. To make students also have to pay for a coursebook in which the professor holds a financial interest seems a bit over the top.
Fortunately, it seems the good professor fancies himself an expert in copyright law, and particularly the formalities associated with copyright registration. A cursory review of each registration quickly demonstrates that his expertise is sorely lacking. Moreover, several of the "works" he registered and for which he now claims copyright were never presented to the university for the necessary waiver. The university does not grant waivers in gross...it does so only on a case by case basis.
Perhaps the good professor may be able to clear up the legalities associated with his obligations under the university's rules and policies, as well as the failings of his purported registrations, but in the end I daresay that the legal costs he will incur by doing so will far exceed whatever monetary award he may receive should he ultimately prevail in his lawsuit. Of course, there is also the "great unknown" about what may happen when and as the university learns about what he is doing as it relates to his students.
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