Don't Blame The Taser, Doctor Bro... Or Else We Sue
from the cause-of-death dept
There have been a number of reported deaths of people soon after those individuals were subdued by law enforcement using a Taser stun gun. More and more medical examiners have included the Taser shocks as part of the "cause of death." However, Taser, the company, is not at all pleased. As an anonymous reader sends in, it's even gone so far as to get judges to change the "cause of death," overruling the local medical examiners. It appears that the company has taken the exceptionally aggressive step of suing some of the doctors who list a Taser shock as one of the causes of death. It then uses research and "experts" paid for by Taser to make the claim that a Taser cannot lead to death -- preferring the basically made up diagnosis of "excited delirium." Somehow, it seems that Taser attacks seem to cause a disproportionate amount of "excited delirium." Either way, in suing to have the final diagnosis overturned, the company is clearly intimidating doctors, who may now be afraid that listing a Taser as a cause of death (no matter what the evidence) will lead to a courtroom battle.
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Filed Under: autopsy, cause of death, intimidation, taser
Companies: taser
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Re:
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Yup...
The reality is that tasers are dangerous. If you have certain pre-existing conditions (known or unknown) you can run into complications from tasers, possibly leading to death. Let's face it, you're running a boatload of electricity through someone, there's bound to be the occasional problem. It's entirely possible that a taser hit in an otherwise healthy individual could cause problems too.
The key to understanding tasers though is that they are "less than lethal" force. They're not supposed to be a "safe" or "harmless" way of subduing people. They're supposed to be an alternative to shooting someone with a gun and bullet, which in my understanding has a far higher incidence of negative side effects than tasering does.
Is it torture to use a taser? No doubt it hurts being tagged by one. Is it more humane than shooting someone? I'd say absolutely. Can it be abused to torture someone? You bet. Does the fact that it's "less lethal" tend to lead to it being used more indiscriminantly than it should be? Probably so, but the issue there is training, not necessarily the device.
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Re: Yup...
Are police more likely to use a Taser because the Taser company lies to them and says Tasers cannot cause death? Yes. Is that a training issue? No, it's a fraud issue.
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Re: Yup...
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Re: Yup...
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Re: Yup...
It is better then being shot, by far..but police use it as a means to controll the people and not used as a alternitve to shooting. of course, with the amount of money people are getting from the law who abuse this new tool makes it worth it i supposed, ill take a tas for a few hundred thousand dollars...no problem
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Having said that I agree that it's better than shooting someone. I saw a thing on TV where the cops had to tase a naked guy THREE TIMES before they were finally able to subdue him. He was trying to break into a day care center buck naked in broad daylight, so god knows what the hell he thought he was doing.
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Re:
The Taser is safe when used properly. It should never be used lightly, any more than deadly force - a gun - would be.
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Re: Re:
This is why they changed the name "non-lethal" to "Less than lethal" because it still can kill you, it's just not as likely.
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This situation isn't necessarily the best idea. It may give the officers respect for the pain that they are given the authority to inflict, but I can see how it would empower some people in the process. The whole "I had to go through it, so you can deal with it too" mentality.
Plus there is a certain amount of risk involved in being hit with a taser, as this article and comments point out. Why are you ricking the safety of your officers to prove a point?
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Re:
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Training...
The Irving, TX "taser specialist" called out to try to prevent a suicide a couple of years back missed a relative easy shot, and I'd bet money the root cause was lack of sufficient training. I use that example in my CHL classes. Probably should write it up for my blog.
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Re: Training...
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Likely a death sentence for me
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Re: Likely a death sentence for me
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Pacemaker protection
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Then how do they kill people?
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Thats like saying....
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Why do you get tased?
Do "innocent" people get tased? Nope. It happens when they're being idiots and refuse to cooperate with a police officer discharging his duty; which means they have committed a crime. Do cops use them too often? Possibly. Is it because people are idiots? Absolutely.
However, I'd rather see someone get tased then subdued by force. Would we have had a Rodney King if the officers involved had been armed with Tasers? Probably not. Would you rather be shocked by a "less than lethal" amount of electricity or "subdued" by 5 baton-wielding cops?
As for "excited delirium", well I expect that getting shocked can cause unexpected death. But even still, it's not a question of the "effectiveness" of the taser... it becomes a question of departmental procedure. Instead of throwing a tased suspect in to the drunk tank, they should follow the Navy's lead and throw them in to medical observation.
For those of you that argue the taser gets used too often, I would look at the circumstances they are used in. For every "questionable" use, there are at least 50 in which the suspect and officers avoided potential harm. And frankly I'll happily trade a couple of Darwinian rejects who think it's ok to fight authority for a few less officer funerals each year.
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Re: Why do you get tased?
You mean like the gentleman on the London bus in a diabetic coma that was tasered twice? He was not innocent?
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Re: Why do you get tased?
I guess innocent until proven guilty just doesn't exist in your world, eh?
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Re: Re: Why do you get tased?
To Gurney: Your "diabetic coma victim" is one of those "questionable" cases I mentioned. At face value, I would agree this was probably an inappropriate use of a taser. However, the decision to tase him was made with all due diligence, while following the documented procedures. Considering the police force was operating in a heightened security environment (an environment in which 4 seperate bombings occurred over the next week), it's a level of response I can find acceptable if not appropriate.
Second guessing someone's actions years later, after you know all the facts is easy.
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Re: Re: Re: Why do you get tased?
Their actions may be understandable, but officers of the law need to be held to a higher standard than that, because of the power and force of authority which they wield. What recourse does an innocent man have in the face of abuses? And if there's a blanket assumption of 'due diligence' anytime a police officer does something 'questionable,' you set a frightening standard for anyone who believes they are being mistreated or wrong by those police officers.
Like said above: if you have fear, COMPLY. I refuse to comply with unjust demands, and you would have me assaulted for that.
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Re: Re: Why do you get tased?
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Re: Why do you get tased?
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Re: Why do you get tased?
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What are the options?
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So WHAT if Tasers kill people?
I hope you guys who are screaming "burn Taser!" realise just how many people got tased when they otherwise would have been shot.
Only thing to do now is acknowledge that its possible in some rare instances that a taser could make things worse for a person, leading to death and act accordingly.
By that, some cops need to stop being so tase-happy. Most of them aren't bad, but others are waay too eager to use a taser.
And again remember, LESS-lethal not NON-lethal. They've been saying it for years. A handful at the start called them NON-lethal, but they've been classified as LESS-lethal for well over a decade.
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Re: So WHAT if Tasers kill people?
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Would They Still Be Alive?
Additional Commentary:
Too many times the police use a taser as punishment instead of the intended use. it is not their job to issue punishments.
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Comments
Secondly, the older version of the (projetile) taser has a relatively inaccurate targeting (especially on a moving target) as opposed to lets say a 9mm or even a standard paintball gun. Taser accuracy is effected by distance and even wind. They have a drop rate of about an inch for every yard, separation rate of about the same and are safely accurate up to 15 yards. It takes quite a bit of training for proper accuracy (and yes, officers who carry a taser do train extensively with them)
Third, in most jurisdictions, officers are encouraged to be tased before they are certified, and most do, but not all.
Fourth, Less-than-leathal is that for the Majority of the population, it is not lethal. it i " weapons intended to be UNLIKELY to kill or to cause GREAT bodily injury to a living target" it is in a similar class to pepper spray, or the rubber bullet. Both of these "non-lethal" weapons have caused deaths in the past, as well as other non-leathal weapons such as the Fork, a toothpick, and the hockey puck. All of these items would not be considered lethal weapons, but they have still caused deaths in the past.
For a point of knowlede reference, I have shot a tazer, and my brother is a police officer certified in carrying one.
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Re: Comments
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COPS ARE PUSSYS
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Tasers
Just a thought.
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tasers
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I have been threatened with tasing,
My point, some times its officer, some its the "perpetrator". Me, I don't feel I was wrong in any way, but I almost got tased. I bet a bunch of you will jump to the officers side with blah,blah...but I don't feel I was wrong and I had the right to object and not comply. Obviously the other officer may of thought so too....
read between the lines and maybe you understand why I got singled out in the first place.....
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Ohm's Law
E.g., a googling suggests muscle is about 400 Ohm.cm, and that taser probes must land at least 10cm apart for the device to be effective. So 4000Ohm . 60A = 240kV - and that's presuming the probes impact muscle, and doesn't say anything about electrical flux across the heart.. A quick test here of dampened skin suggests something in order of 100kOhm.cm resistivity, implying that potentially MV's are needed to drive 60A through skin (course, skin tissue wouldn't be such for long at such levels of current!).
Anyway, arguing the point around DC is irrelevant to a degree, because the Taser discharges 19Hz cycle pulses. I only know enough to know that working out the fields produced by AC is more complex than DC (e.g. skin effects in AC), and that AC pulses might differ in their impact on human physiology from continuous DC.
IEEE Spectrum had a good article "How The Taser Works", with less ill-informed speculation than either the AC or I have provided:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec07/5731/2
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Re: Ohm's Law
You first example: "If we presume the load is fixed, e.g. x cm of tissue, then a certain V implies a certain A and vice versa (with DC and linear electrical circuits at least)." It does not work at all. You need to know the voltage or current (amps) in order to get the other. Formula: Amps = Voltage divided by Resistance. Your example translates (roughly) to x = y/5 (5 for the "fixed"). I don't do much algebra anymore, but, well, I see a LOT of answers there.
Your second example: Look carefully, you disproved your statement by providing the amps. If they didn't act independently, then you wouldn't have to provide the amps.
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Re: Re: Ohm's Law
You say "voltage is separate from current", then a few sentences later, you say "They do effect one another. As one goes up, the other goes down." Unless I totally misunderstood you, those two statements contradict each other. Paul Jakma is correct to say that "voltage and current are not independent of each other".
Your equation of x=y/5 is correct (if x is current, y is voltage, 5 is the resistance). For a certain voltage y, there is only one current x. That is exactly what Paul stated.
"I don't do much algebra anymore, but, well, I see a LOT of answers there." eep! Maybe you should pick up the old math textbook every once in a while, so you at least keep a good handle on the basics :)
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Good and Bad
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Wow, 35 comments and only one got the point of the article!
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"Excited Delirium??"
_j
Corepage | The Instant Link Page System
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IMHO the reaction flow-chart should be, physically restraining the suspect, taser the suspect, shoot the suspect. These days it seems like physically restraining the subject gets skipped and they start at taser the suspect.
You can find plenty of videos on youtube of officers who are in absolutely no physical danger tasering people, sometimes multiple times. These suspects range from protesters and students to lost polish guys in airports. The polish guy died almost instantly and there was a massive cover-up on that incident too. The only reason why anyone even knows about it is because someone filmed it happening and tossed it up on youtube.
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Tase-happy
This fact would be plainly obvious to even the dumbest citizen if the only thing the security officer had on him at the time was a handgun-- I doubt even he would have shot the kid with a bullet. In order for Tasers to be the lesser of two evils, they must only be employed in situations when drawing and firing a handgun would also be appropriate. Law enforcement CANNOT expand the scope of that response threshold just because this weapon doesn't instantly blow someone's brains all over the floor. When it works as designed it incapacitates a person, which should never be done by the state just as a matter of convenience.
Back to Florida, if it was a "training" issue, then why was the dipshit security guy who employed it cleared of all wrongdoing? He went so far over the line it isn't even funny, but apparently it was okay because he followed his "training".
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Amazing - now about the topic
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Possible, but not probable
I have survived many electrocutions, including one where I took 220 for around five minutes before somebody found me and knocked me away from the electrical source. Yes, I wound up in the hospital and had burns on my hands and forearms. I have also been repeatedly "hit" by electrical fences with enough current to set a bull on it's butt. For those wondering, I grew up on a working farm and there are limitless ways to electricute yourself on farms. I've also been hit by tasers, and I'd rather be hit by the taser than the electric fence. In light of my expreinces I find the rising number of taser related deaths to be highly suspect. To put it in proportion, I have seen every single one of my friends and family get hit by the electric fence I spoke of earlier and all that resulted were some interesting curses and funny pratfalls. Yup, it knocked every one of us on our arses, but even my seventy year old grandfather wasn't phased beyond the initial shock. If fifty odd people can get hit a minimum of five times apiece, some much more, by enough current to stun a bull, yet no injury occurs, what does that say about the findings of these doctors?
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Re: Possible, but not probable
He's right. Because .00000008% of the population can take it, obviously the other 99.99999992% must be the same
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Re:
Myself, I think that committee ought to go back and read the United Nations Conventions Against Torture. Since I know you haven't, I'll quote it for you:
"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."
So, um... even according to the UN, in order for it to be torture there has to be pain provided as ordered by the government, WHICH IS NOT PART OF "LAWFUL SANCTIONS".
If cops indiscriminately tased random citizens, that would be considered torture. Tazing a suspect who represents a significant risk to the officer or the general public is incidental damage as a result of a LAWFUL SANCTION.
Good thing no one in the UN ever has a political motive. Or apparently bothers to read thier own charter. It might get in the way of a juicy headline.
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Keep em...
someone who doesn't listen to a cop and refuses to get out of a car should not be tased. There are other, safer options and ALL should be exhausted before the taser is fired.
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Stop the turfing
Tasers are supposed to be used as an alternative to lethal force. More times then not it's used to "stop someone from getting lippy" or for their own amusement.
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No, the *real* cause
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Re: No, the *real* cause
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Police taser man for refusing to sign ticket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3iNnvnjnk
Police taser handcuffed drunk woman in police station
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQXoczxzwYk
Police taser woman for not wanting to be man-handled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSG19c3elhQ
Police taser woman as she'd held down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si3y9gVxJtE
Police taser man for refusing to get out of car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UltIYWpVqXg
Police taser woman for refusing to get out of cop car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFH9kmKZX_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMpEr-MOSyk
Polic e taser woman for refusing to get out of car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkfkQcb45Lo
Police taser kid for trying to get away from them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIY3TemTpaM
Police hold pregnant woman on ground and taser her
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGuhY2LctUQ
Police taser unarmed 78 year old man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4f7YsGqXjs
Police taser woman for non-violently resisting arrest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYscLTfINpk
Police throw woman to ground and taser her
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWjXEf-TWIw
Police taser handcuffed kid for skateboarding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlPA6q1n4uw
Police taser woman in Best Buy for being agitated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHtYWhF7WGg
Police taser man with his hands up, in street
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xVCZxZ8HNc
Police taser pregnant woman for trying to break up fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFnl_BwOQi4
Police taser woman for not complying fast enough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io7eXAl9U8k
Police taser man for not standing when told to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FRnh9f1NnU
Police taser a woman for refusing to get out of car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Ywp2mZdJw
Police taser man for non-violently resisting arrest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9V41CHIc6k
Officer tasers 11 year old boy in school for fighting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmNPvuoKH-g
Police threaten passive protester with taser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jxnjomY0n0
Yeah, their lives were really in danger...
It probably won't sink in since many of you are too stupid to grasp the concept, but I figure I'll try anyway;
It's a good thing that police have something less lethal than regular guns that they can use to sudue violent suspects. It's a BAD thing that police are using it every time someone refuses to obey their orders. They're using it like a cattleprod. The taser is a device that has the potential to kill people and should not be used just because a cop doesn't feel they're getting the respect they deserve. Furthermore, the company that makes tasers shouldn't be allowed to bully doctors into keeping quiet about taser related deaths.
If cops truly need to taser someone, then they should taser them. If they truly need to shoot someone, then they should shoot them. The cops do not need to taser a middle-aged woman for refusing to get out of her car after being stopped for going a few miles an hour over the speed limit!
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To all you people claiming that police only taser people who are threatening them;
Police taser man for refusing to sign ticket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3iNnvnjnk
Police taser handcuffed drunk woman in police station
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQXoczxzwYk
Police taser woman for not wanting to be man-handled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSG19c3elhQ
Police taser woman as she'd held down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si3y9gVxJtE
Police taser man for refusing to get out of car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UltIYWpVqXg
Police taser woman for refusing to get out of cop car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFH9kmKZX_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMpEr-MOSyk
Polic e taser woman for refusing to get out of car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkfkQcb45Lo
Police taser kid for trying to get away from them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIY3TemTpaM
Police hold pregnant woman on ground and taser her
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGuhY2LctUQ
Police taser unarmed 78 year old man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4f7YsGqXjs
Police taser woman for non-violently resisting arrest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYscLTfINpk
Police throw woman to ground and taser her
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWjXEf-TWIw
Police taser handcuffed kid for skateboarding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlPA6q1n4uw
Police taser woman in Best Buy for being agitated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHtYWhF7WGg
Police taser man with his hands up, in street
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xVCZxZ8HNc
Police taser pregnant woman for trying to break up fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFnl_BwOQi4
Police taser woman for not complying fast enough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io7eXAl9U8k
Police taser man for not standing when told to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FRnh9f1NnU
Police taser a woman for refusing to get out of car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Ywp2mZdJw
Police taser man for non-violently resisting arrest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9V41CHIc6k
Officer tasers 11 year old boy in school for fighting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmNPvuoKH-g
Police threaten passive protester with taser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jxnjomY0n0
Yeah, their lives were really in danger...
It probably won't sink in, but I figure I'll try anyway;
It's a good thing that police have something less lethal than regular guns that they can use to sudue violent suspects. It's a BAD thing that police are using it every time someone refuses to obey their orders. They're using it like a cattleprod. The taser is a device that has the potential to kill people and should not be used just because a cop doesn't feel they're getting the respect they deserve. Furthermore, the company that makes tasers shouldn't be allowed to bully doctors into keeping quiet about taser related deaths.
If cops truly need to taser someone, then they should taser them. If they truly need to shoot someone, then they should shoot them. The cops do not need to taser a middle-aged woman for refusing to get out of her car after being stopped for going a few miles an hour over the speed limit!
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