Don't Blame Rick752 For Blocking Ads; Blame Those Who Made Ads Annoying
from the get-over-it dept
The Washington Post is profiling the semi-anonymous Rick752, a mid-50s guy in upstate NY who puts together and maintains EasyList, an extremely popular list that powers the popular AdBlock Firefox extension. Basically, (for the 12 of you who don't know) it lets people surf without seeing advertisements. And, of course, this pisses people off, unreasonably. The article is full of examples of sites either trying to block AdBlock or begging people not to use it, along with quotes from people whining about how if ads are blocked there will be less content online.Hogwash.
If the banner ads are bad content, then something like AdBlock and EasyList are simply a way of letting sites and advertisers know that the ads are not effective at all, but are annoying. That should be exactly what the advertisers and the sites want to hear, because that's the only way that they'll learn to make their advertising better. And the way you do that is by no longer thinking of them as ads, but recognizing that ads need to be good content.
I'm always fascinated by people who seem to think that interference with a business model is either a crime or unethical. In reality, it's simply a market changing, usually for the better. In fact, it's usually a sign of what customers really want and how to offer it to them most efficiently. That's all that AdBlock and EasyList are doing. They're letting advertisers and sites know that current ads just aren't effective. Rather than whining about it, it's the responsibility of publishers and companies to come up with business models that don't annoy users, but give them something of value. AdBlock and EasyList are just communicating that message back to them. Those that complain about it are basically just saying that they're too lazy to come up with a better business model.
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Filed Under: adblock, ads, banner blindness, blame, business models, easylist, rick752
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They corrupted the net, ABP fixed their corruption
Ads really were tolerable when they were a few simple pics on the page. But then things got out of hand REALLY FAST.
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Re: They corrupted the net, ABP fixed their corruption
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Re: They corrupted the net, ABP fixed their corruption
> especially popunder ads.
I've never been able to figure out what the point of a popunder ad even is.
Why send me an ad, then instantly hide it from my view before I can even read it? Isn't the point of advertising to get people to look at your ad? And if you're going to hide it from them, why bother sending it in the first place?
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Anyone who uses ADBlock is a THIEF and should go to Jail!
By blocking ads you're saying I'm not going to pay for what I've read or taken or used. I'm just going to steal whatever I can and I'm taking it for free. You might not click the ads if you show the ads but at least there was a chance that you could or that at least the ads were actually there and advertisers pay for the number of times the ad is shown to people.
Don't give me that same BS about how ads are annoying. Not all sites use those ads and they're only doing that because you're blocking ads. We have to make up for the money that ad blockers cost us. If I come in to your business or home and take some stuff you have there, hound you for information on how they work, then I go about using your electricity and water and then finally leave without paying for your products that I took with me or reimbursing you for the electrictiy and water - you'd be pissed.
Same way site owners are pissed when people come to our sites read our content, take whatever we're offering, waste our bandwidth loading videos and using our services, maybe even contact us to get something out of it and then leave all having blocked the ads that pay for the bandwidth you stole.
It's a crime, just like shoplifting.
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Re: Anyone who uses ADBlock is a THIEF and should go to Jail!
The manufacturers of those products can exercise control over how their products are sold. A web site publisher simply cannot exercise that same level of control because the text documents that make up a web page are interpreted on the client side.
By blocking ads you're saying I'm not going to pay for what I've read or taken or used. I'm just going to steal whatever I can and I'm taking it for free.
This is simply laughable. You don't get complete control over how your website is displayed because that isn't how the internet works. If a choice was made to put content on the internet in spite of this fact, then the publisher has no cause for complaint. Therefore, there is no moral issue.
If I come in to your business or home and take some stuff you have there, hound you for information on how they work, then I go about using your electricity and water and then finally leave without paying for your products that I took with me or reimbursing you for the electrictiy and water - you'd be pissed.
Sure, but that situation doesn't translate to ad-blocking, so it's a rather pointless comparison. You are talking about an abuse of private, physical property. When you put up a website, you are essentially offering an open invitation to view your content. That's where the level of control ends; you don't have the means to force how the content is viewed.
Another point: Since the files necessary to display a website are downloaded to the local machine, the end user has the right to make changes they want to the files on their computer. Adblock simply does this on the fly, editing the text document to remove ads.
It's a crime, just like shoplifting.
It isn't stealing, it isn't a crime, and it's nothing like shoplifting. As I stated previously, arguing against adblocking is trying to argue against the way the internet works.
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Re: Re: Anyone who uses ADBlock is a THIEF and should go to Jail!
I don't need filthy ad leechers there.
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Re: Re: Re: Anyone who uses ADBlock is a THIEF and should go to Jail!
Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. You can't actually counter my arguments, so you're going to resort to the "no, you're wrong" method. The insults just show that you really don't have any rationale to back up your statements.
I don't care how the Internet works.
That's fine, you don't have to care. However, since you still put content on the internet, it seems particularly foolish on your part to complain about it.
If you come to one of my sites like ChannelKing you have to view my ads. If you don't like it you can go to hell and go away.
As stated previously, that isn't true. You don't have the level of control necessary to enforce your demands, and I am well within my rights to control what I view on my computer.
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Re: Anyone who uses ADBlock is a THIEF and should go to Jail!
This must be one of the most pathetic non-RIAA/MPAA related analogies I have ever read...
content and ads are not the same. So content is not one stick of gum/handful of cereal/cup of milk and ads are not the other sticks/rest of the box of cereal/jug of milk
Just for that reason alone, the analogy doesn't apply
By blocking ads you're saying I'm not going to pay for what I've read or taken or used.
I wouldn't be paying anything anyway...whether I block the ads or not, no exchange of any kind of currency is involved. So again, a ridiculous statement.
I'm just going to steal whatever I can and I'm taking it for free.
Furthermore, I'm not stealing anything, for the exact same reason. Unless you put up a pay-wall, any content you make available on the web is (for) free, so nobody is stealing anything
Not all sites use those ads and they're only doing that because you're blocking ads.
Turning things around might be convenient for you, but that doesn't make it true. This is not a chicken and egg kind of situation...
Obnoxious ads came first, then came the adblockers, not the other way around, so please stop trying to feed us this fallacy that because adblockers exist you have to make ads more annoying. Frankly is just stupid to try to argue that, for three reasons:
first reason I already mentioned, nobody's going to believe adblockers came first.
Secondly, what kind of retarded business strategy would it be anyway? Adblockers are used because people don't like ads, so your solution to that problem is to make more annoying ads?
Thirdly, what kind of retarded business strategy would it be anyway? Adblockers are used and are effective, so your solution to counter that is....more ads?
Same way site owners are pissed when people come to our sites read our content, take whatever we're offering, waste our bandwidth loading videos and using our services, maybe even contact us to get something out of it and then leave all having blocked the ads that pay for the bandwidth you stole.
(yes, I skipped over your laughable analogy of you coming into my house etc... because it is that laughable)
Here's how it works in the real world: you put up content, offer things, maybe even allow visitors to contact you and you provide (at no charge to your visitors) the bandwidth to do all that. You're allowed the chance to earn some money by putting ads on your website, however, that's between you and advertisers. In no way, shape or form are any of your visitors involved in that deal so they have no obligation whatsoever to look at or click on the ads you display.
I kept the best for last...
You might not click the ads if you show the ads but at least there was a chance that you could or that at least the ads were actually there and advertisers pay for the number of times the ad is shown to people.
So when you watch a movie, show,... on TV, you dutifully sit through all the commercials? You never switch channels, go to the bathroom, etc...in short you never, not even for a second, refrain yourself from watching the commercials?
The answer to that question is obvious so why don't you shut your hypocritical mouth no matter how frustrated you are about people blocking the ads on your site because the ads apparently are annoying. Don't even think of responding that you do watch every second of the commercials, that's not going to make you virtuous or justified in your rant, it's going to make you a hypocrite AND a liar
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Re: They corrupted the net, ABP fixed their corruption
I had Adblock Plus -- after adding it as a sort of novelty -- and was running it and sort of liked it. Then I soon moved over to a new PC. I had not bothered to reinstall the add-on, Ad Block Plus.
But then something happened on my new PC. I hated the interfering banners. The got in the way. They didn't shrink when they were supposed to. They blocked functionality.
So I remembered that great add-on from my old PC and found it again. I installed it and feel great about doing so.
The trigger? In my case, an Estee Lauder ad that swelled up and blocked most of the New Messages on my Yahoo inbox. Yahoo had sold an ad that blocked my use of Yahoo.
Not only that (and this is something Canadians are used to), it also wanted me to click a "Find a Macy's near you" link in the ad.
Thing is, there are no Macy's in Canada. So I was getting an ad that I shouldn't have had. And ad that Estee Lauder should not have been paying for. And a real pain in the butt, interfering with my Yahoo "experience."
So I googled around and found out that Rick752 as apparently passed away. I'm sorry to hear that.
But he's definitely in Heaven now.
S.N.
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Adblock saved my life
I know what I want to buy, I will never buy, and never will, items from an ad online so adblock for me is a way to put blinders on it. IF I wanted to see ads, I can just open my local newspaper and read them there.
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Re: Adblock saved my life
I also use PeerGuardian that acts as a firewall. If you turn on the "advertisers" list, then the sites don't even resolve to their IPs (they resolve to your own localhost) so you don't even download ANYTHING!
Google Text ads don't bother me, and in fact I've unblocked them from adblock. I don't mind clicking the occasional link to help a webmaster out if they actually give me ads worth clicking.
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And yet...
Regardless of your view of their monetization effort publishers deserve to be paid for the service they are providing. If the ads piss you off so much then send them an email. Give them some real feedback. I can promise you they will pull the ads that offend you. The approach of blocking any and all ads only serves to escalate the problem.
I mean really, if the ads are so annoying to you on a particular site, dont go there. Pretty simple.
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Re: And yet...
You sound like a fairy designer defending ads. Sorry if I hurt your feelings PUSSY!
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Note: I say had, because in 7 years of me owning the .com I made a grand total of $250 in advertisements (and I was told that was EXCEPTIONAL!)
Didn't even cover hosting costs and I'd rather my visitors feel like they are on a homepage than a business (I don't care about making money off the site.)
Come to think of it, the ads might go back up now that Adblock is around simply because people have an opportunity to opt-out from seeing them. Hmm so is this a case of Adblock INSPIRING the use of ads?! I believe so!!
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Re: And yet...
Publishers "deserve" to get paid when they provide a service the consumer wants, and that evidently doesn't include invasive and annoying ads. Get over yourself.
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Re: And yet...
No, they only "deserve" what they can get. And if they can't get money from banner and flash ads anymore, then they obviously need to find another way to make money.
The notion that by viewing the content of a website you are somehow obligated to view the ads is ludicrous. If I want to watch a television show, I'm not obligated to watch the ads (since I can mute them, do something else, etc), yet I can still view the show. If I want to look at a website, I'm still not obligated to view the ads, and I can still view the website.
Just because you are able to earn money with a business model does not mean that you should always be able to earn money with that model.
The only thing worse than your spouting off about the ads is your hypocrisy.
Except that the ad revenue is simply supplemental income for Mike, and not the main revenue source. Meaning that he uses a different method of making money from the site.
If you don't know what you're talking about, perhaps you should hold off on the insults.
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Re: Re: And yet...
I ll be doing popups if they block that.
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Re: Re: Re: And yet...
Your solution to ad-blocking is to infect your users with adware and spyware, and annoy them with popups? You deserve to be blamed if you intentionally go out of your way to inconvenience and annoy your users.
If spyware and popups are your solution, then you are the one responsible for it. Pretending that adblocking is to blame for your ill-advised "solution" is a sad attempt at avoiding responsibility for your actions.
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Re: And yet...
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Re: And yet...
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Re: And yet...
As I've made clear multiple times, as a publisher, it still makes us some money, but it's a tiny fraction of our revenue, and if it goes away so be it.
It's not hypocrisy to say that ads aren't very effective for getting an advertising message across while still using them as a publisher. My point is that the companies that sell through brand advertising are going to discover it's not worth it.
Then, those sites that rely solely on banner ads will be in trouble.
The real issue is that if the ads are bad and annoying so that people want to block them, then that's going to hurt everyone a lot more than an ad blocker.
Regardless of your view of their monetization effort publishers deserve to be paid for the service they are providing.
No one deserves their business model. You have to earn it. If you piss people off, then you don't deserve anything.
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Re: And yet...
Or just block them, which is effortless and doesn't limit the content you get to see.
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Re: And yet...
"Regardless of your view of their monetization effort publishers deserve to be paid for the service they are providing."
I hate to tell you this but in a free market the publisher only deserves to be paid if I find the service useful. If I don't find a site useful because of intrusive, annoying, clock cycle stealing ads then I don't support the publisher or the monetization effort. So I use AdBlockPlus to do this? So what?
Have you approached some of the worst offenders (ie ZDNet or C|Net) about removing their trashy ads? People have tried for years to no avail.
And how you you, Jesse, speak for every webmaster out there who wants to support the site with annoying, useless ads?
If you read the comments here and on the Washington Post carefully people are not saying they're anti-advertising. They're anti the kind of ad that opens itself over, under and around a site without permission, is loud, annoying as all hell and has nothing to do with the site in the first place.
Or have these people learned nothing from the small fact that most people don't object to the simple, relevant text ads on Google?
Relevant, well designed, non intrustive text ads work better and, I daresay, get more clicks.
ttfn
John
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Intertube Stent Procedure
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I just want to block DoubleClick
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Art instead
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Re: Art instead
Ooh, very cool. Thank you for the link, sir!
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Re: And yet...
Read the article, over again, and this time PAY F--KING ATTENTION. ABP and EasyList exist because there are too many of those obtrusive, stupid ads that annoy the crap out of all of us. The ads here on Techdirt, at least since I've started reading it, are the good content type that don't get in the way and piss people off.
Next time, before your bitch about someone's supposed hypocrisy, you might want to actually understand what they're talking about.
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Re: Re: And yet...
It would be nice if there were a better way but right now this is how the economics of the internet work. Until that changes all you are doing is undermining the very content you are enjoying.
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Re: Re: Re: And yet...
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Re: Re: Re: And yet...
Untrue. Adblock might lower their advertising revenues, but it doesn't deny them the ability to make money. It does effect one method of making money on the internet.
It would be nice if there were a better way but right now this is how the economics of the internet work. Until that changes all you are doing is undermining the very content you are enjoying.
And programs like Adblock help influence the economics of the internet by limiting the effectiveness of one business model, which will lead to the development of other, more effective models.
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Re: Re: Re: And yet...
Not at all. You are simply making it clear that the business model is not effective.
That's not "undermining" the content, it's pushing the publisher to find better ways to monetize.
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Re: Re: And yet...
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I don't have advertisements on my site
Ad free - always has been, always will be.
Doesn't stop me advertising my site of course. ;-)
NB By 'ad' I mean space turned over to advertisers such that I effectively sell my audience's eyeballs to them.
I don't believe in selling one's audience to advertisers.
It's an indication of contempt.
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Stupid article
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Re: Stupid article
And how do "content" and "advertising" differ anyway? "Annoying ads" and "bad content" are the same thing. So are "good/relevant ads" and "good/relevant content".
For example, how does an article on the trend of social networks differ from a good advertisement from Facebook (i.e. a valid message describing what social networks are, who is out there, with focus on the market leading service)?
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Re: Re: Stupid article
Advertising: (from dictionary.com):
1. the act or practice of calling public attention to one's product, service, need, etc., esp. by paid announcements in newspapers and magazines, over radio or television, on billboards, etc.
The purpose of advertising is to inform you of something the advertiser would like you to buy. Content on a webpage can be anything - including ads, but also anything else.
If I click on a link taking me to a page telling me (just for example) how to drywall my garage, the instructions on how to drywall my garage is the content that I'm looking for. That's what I want. That's all I want. I don't want any other distractions. I may have all the materials and everything else I need, so don't give me helpful ads for your drywall products. If I need materials, I'll go to a site that sells materials and shop there.
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Re: Re: Re: Stupid article
If the content on your website is good, people consume your service. Content is advertising.
Thinking of the two as separate can be done today mainly because "advertisers" typically put out bad content. That is, they often have an extremely narrowly focused and lopsided message. A smart advertiser would put out content that their target audience actually wants to see/hear/read. In other words, they'd become "content providers".
Don't let the current stereotypes cloud your thinking. Ads and content are one and the same.
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Re: Stupid article
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Re: Stupid article
No, you're wrong. You read this post, right? And it's an "advertisement" for Techdirt. You didn't block it because it was relevant content.
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Google Ads
Google Ads are a great example of non obtrusive, applicable, and easy on they eye advertisements. But if Google is to continue in the long term I think they need to take advertising a step further and start right now. They should offer a new platform or modify the existing one to cater towards useful, artistic, content based ads. Also offer a tips section to advertisers that aids them in creating ads that work.
More and more people will use ABP, DVRs and such unless the advertising industry turns a new leaf. "Sheeple" are becoming a thing of the past. Bombardment advertising never was the answer. Instead of exclusively putting forth effort for the Super Bowl, try doing your job more often.
I shudder to think of a world without ads. I do not want a subscription to Google.
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Business model
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Re: Business model
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Re: Business model
Again, if the *content* is good, then there's no problem. You're reading Techdirt, even though it's an "ad" for our business.
People watch BMWFilms because they're interesting films, despite the fact that they're "advertising" for BMW.
People watch the Super Bowl for the ads, because they're more entertaining than the game.
Advertising is not Techdirt's business model, but we do have some ads, but it's more to learn about the advertising process. It's a tiny fraction of our revenue, which is made by selling Insight services to clients.
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Ads should be considered content
Why I can see why sites don't like AdBlock is that unlike TV ads that might be removed by some DVR device, sites are paid by impression or click; TV ads usually simply sell a slot for a fixed amount regardless of people watching. That means advertisers paid for time that doesn't reach the audience. AdBlock, conversely, takes money away from the sites. I can understand you thinking that they should make the ads better or entertaining, that would just be good advertising, but that isn't in control of the site hosting it.
Essentially you are preaching to one party (those wanting to advertise) about making better Ads as a solution for a problem another party (The site owner) has. I am afraid that simply won't have pull. Until a new model is discovered, they will simply find more creative ways to deliver adds avoiding AdBlock. You may believe its not a problem and the market will work itself out, and you may be right, but at this moment it does remove a level of reward for content providers.
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Re: Ads should be considered content
A little nitpicky, but you can't take away what was never received. Adblock might lower their ad revenues, but it doesn't "take money away."
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Re: Re: Ads should be considered content
On top of that, there is NOTHING in the specification of the Web that says that my browser must do exactly what the web author wants it to do. In fact, the specification of the Web is exactly that the client can do whatever it wants with the copy of the content that it downloads. If it wants to go fetch embedded images/ads...that is completely up to the client, not the web author/publisher.
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Re: Ads should be considered content
I used to work in the TV advertising business. The prices for ads are set based on viewership. The more viewers a show has, the more you pay. Ads run during peak viewing hours cost more than run-of-station (which usually ends up meaning 2-4am)
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Complain to the website?
Now suppose Yahoo's users complain about the ads.
Remember, you're in charge of Yahoo: do you pull the ads because a few (or a few hundred) people complain or do you continue to take $1 million in revenue from these advertisers?
Do you really think the Board of Directors will be happy that you turned down a $1 million account because a few people complained?
Now, granted, I don't know the actual amount that companies spend on advertising, but it does come down to user-complaints versus income issue.
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Re: Complain to the website?
I see what you are saying, but here is where I think it is different. You state they recieve 1 million, but generally the people we are talking about get paid by impression, not an upfront cost. If you went to the Yahoo Board of directors and said "People are compling about this ad we are showing and I think we are losing users over it. This ad stops us from getting impressions from other ads which generate revenue." I am pretty darn sure they would pull the ad.
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Toleration
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Re: And yet...
@DanC: Lovely misquoting going there, but I caught your attempted slight of hand. For anyone reading this, I refer again to comment #14, where a helpful Anon has written:
Publishers "deserve" to get paid when they provide a service the consumer wants, and that evidently doesn't include invasive and annoying ads.
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Re: Re: And yet...
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Re: Re: Re: And yet...
As for your "economics of the Internet" no one (once again, cause I know it's just far too simple for you) is saying all advertising is bad.
What qualifies is (1) Intrustive for it's own sake, (2) No relevence what so ever (3) downloading applets without my permission and waste valuable bandwidth and clock cycles (4) Malware loaded [Hi there, DoubleClick!] which includes cookies that I neither gave permission for or want (5) Just plain ugly.
People have outlined what they would accept though you seem to want (or perhaps design?) the spamware people are blocking here.
You also miss the right of the consumer (in this case me) to block stuff that I don't want on my system.
Want me to see your ad? Don't piss me off. Don't be DoubleClick etc etc and do be relevant, tasteful and NOT amimated.
ttfn
John
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Re: Re: And yet...
Not sure what misquoting I'm being accused of (or the sleight of hand either, for that matter). I didn't take anything out of context, so I'm a tad confused.
I simply have an issue with the notion that a web publisher somehow "deserves" to be paid for online content. If they are able to secure payment for their content, more power to them.
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Re: Re: And yet...
@Chris: HOWEVER, despite the fact that I disagree with Jesse's post, I cannot in any way support the offensive hypocrisy of your own post. You say "You rely on insults and attacks, thus betraying your self-loathing for all of us...", and then follow that up with "low-life troglodyte" and "Flame in hell, troll." Seriously, is this satire, or are you really that blind to your own hypocrisy?
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Re: Toleration
QUOTED FOR TRUTH
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Now that I think of it...
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No subject
This just made me laugh out loud!!!!
Proof that ADS and CONTENT are different things no matter how effective you make the ad.
Consumers do not want ads infiltrating their content.
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Re: No subject
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Re: No subject
Techdirt is an Ad for the Insight community.
"I'm a Mac" is entertaining content I carry on my iPod.
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Re: No subject
Huh? Not at all. Ads are content. And content are ads. Always. Any bit of content advertises something, and any bit of ads are content.
Where's the proof? I pointed out that ads can be *bad* content, and that's true. And that's the problem I'm pointing out.
But it doesn't change the fact that ads are content.
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We don't know if the ad content is good or bad
As for what advertisers "deserve," if the CPM data on which their ad rates are based factor in a certain percentage of blockers, then that make sense. But if a large percentage of a site's visitors are blocking the ads and that's not accounted for in the rates, then the audience size is being misrepresented to the advertisers and the rates are probably inflated. But that's an issue to be settled between the site(s) and the advertisers. Not the visitors.
As for Google Ads, I find them completely ignorable. Except for when they piss me off: I work with an animal rescue, and Gmail insists upon serving me ads for puppy and kitten mills. As many would point out, however, that makes them easier to find, and...{insert evil thoughts here}
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I did not know ether.
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Re: I did not know ether.
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hey nerds and geeks...
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Re: hey nerds and geeks...
http://www.getfirefox.com/
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I don't have a lot of free time and I don't want to waste any of it by having anyone trying to sell me something. I never go to these sources wondering what the ads are today. I don't care if they are great, intrusive, old, boring, or whatever. I don't like ads.
So, for some of us, technologies like adblock will never serve to improve the quality of ads because I'll always use any (legal) blocking tools I have. I'm sorry if someone's business model depends on ads because, regardless of their quality, they annoy me.
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And when you watch that TV show, it's advertising that show to you. And when you watch that DVD, it's advertising the actors and directors.
You DO like ads. You just only like them to be good content. If it's bad content, such as banner ads or commercials, then you get annoyed.
I don't have a lot of free time and I don't want to waste any of it by having anyone trying to sell me something. I never go to these sources wondering what the ads are today. I don't care if they are great, intrusive, old, boring, or whatever. I don't like ads.
Yet, you watch TV shows and movies, which are advertising themselves. You just don't think of them as advertising, because the content is good.
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If we're going to talk with any logic and common sense, we should start with our vocabulary.
An "ad" refers to something other than itself. Its goal is to direct you away from itself toward something else.
TV shows, movies, articles, novels, nonfiction books, etc. are not, in any primary sense, "ads" as they are completely self-referential. They refer you to the ideas, arguments, emotions, etc., that they attempt to create.
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You can define it that way if you want. But if you do, then your business model will fail.
I'm talking about defining it in a way so that business models work.
I'd rather focus on what works than semantics.
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Re: Re: Ads
> that show to you. And when you watch that DVD,
> it's advertising the actors and directors.
That's a rather broad and self-serving definition of "advertising". Using that definition, then everything you do and experience in life is nothing but an advertisement for itself.
If I like watching movies, then the movies are advertising themselves to me.
If I go out and play football with my friends, then the game and my friends are advertising themselves to me.
If I spend time with my girlfriend, she's advertsing herself to me.
If I eat a good meal, the food is advertising itself to me.
The list goes on. When you define advertising so broadly in order to define it as "content", then absolutely everything becomes advertising and the term loses all meaning.
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Re: Re: Re: Ads
But it has to be that way if you want to create a business model that succeeds these days. That's the point. The old concept of "advertising" has to go away.
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Consistency
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What's the confusion?
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Stepping into my flame suit...
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Re: Stepping into my flame suit...
However, I do hate how the studios are (mis)managing the content that is available. Most popular shows only have 4 or 5 episodes available at any time. Or they will have one season of many, which is neither the first nor most recent. Totally annoying, that is.
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Re: Stepping into my flame suit...
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Re: Stepping into my flame suit...
The reason you think of ads as separate is that you still think of it as "information that someone else wants to push on me". But that is exactly what content providers are giving you. You just happen to go "looking for news"...which is information that someone is "trying to push on you".
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Wait a second
If the status quo model for revenue is pay per click, then wouldnt these sites never make a dime off the people who use AdBlock anyway even if they didnt use AdBlock? Its also a huge exaggeration to say that this is something that EVERYONE is doing.
Firefox has about 40% market share and of those people what percentage use adblock (20%)? The way I see it, these are people who would NEVER click an ad in the first place, so where is the issue?
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Re: Wait a second
This is not correct - pay per click is the main model for google, but not for the majority of ads on the net - the ones that people strive to block. Those are paid generally on an impression basis.
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Just realized how much I love AdBlock
I personally like the ads in Gmail. Link and short description, but all txt based. I like reading them as I am reading my emails to see how accurately Google matches ads with my "interests". I do click on a good number of those advertisements too, so kudos Google!
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Re: Stepping into my flame suit...
That's my point - most folks would block the ads regardless of how conscious Hulu is to not overly annoying folks with ads. If ad blockers become as prevelant as popup blockers, then Hulu will have real problems and definitely would not be around in its present form.
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@Brian: I don't block ads by choice. I've used AdBlock on everything in the past, when some of my favourite sites used horrible, content-blocking Flash ads (one particularly annoying one from ATI comes to mind). Now, if I find a site that insists on obtrusive ads, I'll block them, and nasty ad providers I'll block either through AdBlock, the firewall, or the hosts file. I have no problem with ads, and I'm pretty sure there are many others like me, who just want to avoid the bottom of the quality barrel.
Otherwise, you sound pretty logical and right to me.
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Now, I'm a googleite, having long since abandoned Yahoo! and their increasingly overbearing ads that sing, dance and play movies, and clog up my internet pipes. I find myself ignoring content ads almost completely because now, most are either junk, scams or from companies I don't recognize.
In the old Yahoo! days, I did the following: applied for a Chevron gasoline credit card, opened a bank account, and at lesat two credit card accounts, based on 'relevant banner ads' that popped up on my screen. Today, with the rise of internet fraud and realistic-looking phishing fake banner ads, I refuse to click on anything presented to me as an online advertisement.
Back in the old days, when you could still trust online ad content, and I was totally p--d off at my bank (Wells Fargo, thieves and bandits in three-piece suits), I typed in keywords in the Yahoo search engine, like 'I hate my bank' and 'Wells Fargo sucks!' until a relevant ad popped up, leading me to open a bank account with a competing financial institution. Eight, nine years later, I'm still perfectly happy with that bank. This happens to be a company whose primary business isn't banking, and without target banner advertising, I never would have known they offered this service.
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Who says annoying ads aren't effective?
Your point is based on what I believe is the false assumption that annoying ads aren't effective. Who says annoying ads aren't effective? ("HeadOn!") Most people may think of advertising as a bit of a sleazy business, but they're not stupid. Almost all ads are annoying, so if annoying ads aren't effective, that would mean that almost all ads aren't effective. This is either not true or the companies that advertise have been throwing their money away since the dawn of advertising.
We may not like it, but annoying ads work. Less annoying ads may work better, but probably not enough so to make it worthwhile for most advertisers. Now, perhaps ad blockers will change the model a bit, but not because annoying ads aren't effective, but because people finally have a means to avoid annoying ads.
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Re: Who says annoying ads aren't effective?
You mean, because now we can make annoying ads ineffective.
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Who says annoying ads aren't effective?
Your point is based on what I believe is the false assumption that annoying ads aren't effective. Who says annoying ads aren't effective? ("HeadOn!") Most people may think of advertising as a bit of a sleazy business, but they're not stupid. Almost all ads are annoying, so if annoying ads aren't effective, that would mean that almost all ads aren't effective. This is either not true or the companies that advertise have been throwing their money away since the dawn of advertising.
We may not like it, but annoying ads work. Less annoying ads may work better, but probably not enough so to make it worthwhile for most advertisers. Now, perhaps ad blockers will change the model a bit, but not because annoying ads aren't effective, but because people finally have a means to avoid annoying ads.
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Just Doesn't Matter
Advertisers need to find a new model, that's for sure. Advertisements need to be directly related to the page I'm viewing (if I'm on Guitar site show me an ad for a guitar, not a car), should look natural and be undistracting (no music, no "games"), and shouldn't interfere in my browsing (those annoying ones which rolldown and cover everything).
The most effectives ads I've seen are those that the site probably isn't even getting paid for. Reading a forum where someone recommends a certain TV tuner card because it works well with Linux is going to result in me looking up that card and company and probably buying it. Seeing a blog review the new Asus eeePC will get me interested, not some ugly flash banner which screams at me to click here now.
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What customers want
That's easy. Customers want the best of everything, and they want it for free. You can cease your market analysis now. Trouble is, that doesn't put food on the tables of those who supply it.
"I'm always fascinated by people who seem to think that interference with a business model is either a crime or unethical."
And I'm always fascinated by people who seem to think that trying to protect your current business model is either a crime or unethical...
That being said, I use adblock myself (at least when I'm at home and can install whatever I wish). Like some of the other posters, I try to limit my block list to ad servers, or even specific ads on occasion, that are the most intrusive and detrimental to my enjoyment of the "real" content. If the ad just sits quietly to the side and doesn't get in my way, I'm glad to provide the site a little more ad revenue.
I've seen people argue that getting rid of ads and the revenue they generate doesn't mean there will be any less content available, because there are plenty of other ways the sites can make money. That's simply untrue. It's like saying we don't need fossil fuels because there are alternative energy sources available. Not everything lends itself easily to such a change it what drives it. Some could make the change almost seemlessly, some would need a major overhaul. It's no surprise that would be met with a fair amount of resistance.
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Re: What customers want
Not true at all. People will pay for value. They always have, always will.
And if you can leverage free stuff to get them to pay for something of value, that DOES put food on the table.
And I'm always fascinated by people who seem to think that trying to protect your current business model is either a crime or unethical...
I never said that it was a crime or that it was unethical. I just said that it was stupid, because it won't work.
And that's true.
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Re: Re: What customers want
Anyway, my point is that you have a good situation that not everyone has. Should those other folks just pack up and go home because the warm fuzzy for everyone business model does not exist (and may never)? I think not. Imagine the dearth of content if that were to happen.
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Re: Re: Re: What customers want
This is the standard doom-and-gloom argument you always get when things change. Some adapt to the changes, some don't. In other words, "Adapt or die". The question that should be asked is "Why should those other folks receive special protection for their business model?" Simply because you were able to make money using one business model does not grant you the right to always make money from that business model.
Your argument is that because all those other guys currently rely on ads, we should somehow place the internet in a vacuum so nobody has to worry about finding other ways of making money. Sorry, but stagnation is not a solution.
At it's core, a website is simply a text document that is interpreted on the client side to display the site. Knowing this basic fact, an entire advertising structure was placed on a system where the consumer's internet browser retains control over the structure of the site. And now some consumers are exercising that level of control in order to remove things that annoy them, including ads. Complaining about ad-blocking is essentially trying to argue against the way the internet works.
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Re: Re: Re: What customers want
Um. No business model is what it is. The market is constantly changing. And if that market tells you your business model needs to change, it needs to change. You can't just say "that's my business model, it must stay!"
Most of the entertainment and information you consume has been subsidized in some way. Its a fact of life and not something that just changes on a dime.
Indeed. I never said anything different. Nor did I say the idea that information and entertainment won't be subsidized. I just said it needs to stop being subsidized by *bad content*.
You are fortunate to have such high value content that it appeals to businesses that need to know what you know. Can that really be said of the blurbs you publish to the web? Probably not. Just because your content lends itself to being sold does not mean that case is true for everyone.
Who the hell said that information would be sold? Not I.
You're arguing against a strawman.
. Bottom line is consumers dont pay for content unless it is compelling.
Indeed. In fact, I'd argue they almost never pay for content. That's why I'm always talking up the importance of "free."
You seem to be arguing against something I never said.
Until there is a system of micropayments or something along those lines consumer facing websites have to support themselves with advertising (or find another source of income to subsidize their loss leader as you have done).
And, micropayments will never work. I've discussed that at length too.
But, again, you seem to be arguing against somethign I never said. Yes, websites will support themselves with advertising. That's what I've been saying all along. But that content needs to be good. And it's not.
Should those other folks just pack up and go home because the warm fuzzy for everyone business model does not exist (and may never)?
You seem to be confused and again are arguing against something I never said.
I really don't know how to respond to you when you seem to think I said something totally different than what I actually said.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What customers want : There's an old saying that goes...
"I know what I said."
"I just don't know what you heard."
It works in this kind of situation beautifully.
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john
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AdMuncher
No, I do not have any affiliation. Just pimping a product that has been amazingly effective.
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Obviously there are ads that people do enjoy
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Actually some of us (like me) just don't like ads. I turn on the TV solely to watch my show.
And when you watch that TV show, it's advertising that show to you.
Mike, that's like the joke about the kind of answers engineers give. While technically you may be correct, it's completely meaningless to say "if you like watching something, then it reinforces your desire to watch it again." It's not what we're talking about.
Your long-standing equating of "ads are content; content is ads" goes too far outside of what people consider "ads". I know that's part of your ongoing point: that we collectively need to re-think what it means to be an ad. However, what 99% of people are complaining about are commercials - distinct ads in various media. What adblock stops are commercials. The 30-second ads wedged between portions of Lost are commercials. The 8 movie previews Disney automatically plays in front of my copy of Dumbo on DVD are commercials.
No matter how good that content is, there will always be people who don't want the intrusion at some given point. We don't want commercials; we want to watch our show. Now if somehow selling opportunities are interwoven into the narrative, that may or may not be OK, depending on the details. I clearly recall Total Recall as having quite jarring product placement for the time.
My point is that not all content IS ads (obviously all ads are content), as most people consider ads to be. NOT all content is selling something. And a lot of people don't WANT to be thinking about buying things or getting offers while they're just trying to watch a fun show.
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But it is exactly what we're talking about.
Your long-standing equating of "ads are content; content is ads" goes too far outside of what people consider "ads".
And that's the problem.
However, what 99% of people are complaining about are commercials - distinct ads in various media. What adblock stops are commercials. The 30-second ads wedged between portions of Lost are commercials. The 8 movie previews Disney automatically plays in front of my copy of Dumbo on DVD are commercials.
Sure. And that's because commercials are bad content.
No matter how good that content is, there will always be people who don't want the intrusion at some given point.
Absolutely. So don't use intrusive ads. That's the point. Intrusive ads are bad content.
We don't want commercials; we want to watch our show.
I agree completely.
Now if somehow selling opportunities are interwoven into the narrative, that may or may not be OK, depending on the details. I clearly recall Total Recall as having quite jarring product placement for the time.
I'm not talking about product placement either, though it's a sub-segment of what we're talking about. If the product placement is jarring, then, again that's bad content.
My point is that not all content IS ads (obviously all ads are content), as most people consider ads to be. NOT all content is selling something.
That's where you're wrong. All content is advertising something, whether on purpose or not, and whether your realize it or not.
And a lot of people don't WANT to be thinking about buying things or getting offers while they're just trying to watch a fun show.
I never said otherwise.
You seem to think I'm saying that all content is trying to get you to buy something. I never said that at all. I just said all content is advertising.
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Hogwash
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I block your ads
Just letting you know that I block the ads Techdirt has on its rss feed. Reason: I don't like image/flash based ads. If there was a discrete one line of text ad links at the bottom of each item, I would be happy to have them visible. (I might even click on one occasionally). Otherwise, great and informative content.
Cheers.
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Wow
I hadn't heard of AdBlock until I saw the article via iGoogle at work. I sent myself a link to this so I could check it out.
It will install the next time I fire up FireFox and I will decide how useful it may be to me.
If it can prevent a heavy pile of large ads that delay a website while it waits for their server to adjust, great. If it causes more issues than it is worth, it will be removed.
I don't mind ads on websites. I do mind ads that take longer to download than the rest of the entire page, or bleat and flicker at me with sound or pictures.
I can flip past ad pages in a newspaper, but if I had to wait until something downloaded before I could turn the page, or the ad flashed at me while I tried to read the article, I would cover it or stop reading the newspaper. TV is more linear and really doesn't count. Ads are, perhaps, the original basis for newspapers, radio and TV, but the ads were either easy to ignore (newspapers), or a minor annoyance that did not continue to intrude the entire time one was watching the sponsored content.
That's my 2 cents, anyway.
Hope you enjoyed this, brought to you by the wonderful folks at...
Grins,
RW
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Adblock / Avoiding Sites
Ads are sold based upon a multitude of factors, some ads are sold based upon page impressions, ad impressions, total web site visitors, clicks, etc... Blocking the ad from being displayed (with Adblock for example) will affect some of those factors but not others.
The point is that If I visit a particular website and spend twenty mins clicking through content, that website logs that activity and now has another unique visitor which makes the site that much more valuable. EVEN IF I NEVER SAW A SINGLE AD WHILE I WAS THERE.
What your proposing (Avoiding sites altogether that have annoying ads) is much more damaging to the sites than using Adblock to avoid just the ads.
In that case, the ad wouldn't be seen or clicked on anyway AND the website would have one less visitor and half a dozen clicks.
You people are starting to sound like Prince. Take half a second to think before you start shooting yourself in the foot would you please ?
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Re: Adblock / Avoiding Sites
I agree 100% that if the ad is annoying block it or close the page and send an email to the webmaster. If they get enough emails about an annoying ad they will not run it anymore. If their visitations go down over the life a campaign they will see that too and probably figure out the cause. By blocking it you do not alert them to your aversion to the advertisement.
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Not at all true
If you are running a web site that's dependent on being paid by ad impressions and you're not logging that then you don't deserve to be in business, anyway.
That said. Just check the number of unique visitors to the number of ad impressions. If the visitor count and page counts are higher than the ad impressions then, I'd suggest, as a webmaster it would be time to get off your lazy butt and look into it.
AdBlock goes after the worst offenders, after all, and not just all advertising. It can also block ad servers who have been known to invade privacy and distribute malware.
I haven't seen or experienced it blocking Google Ads either on their site or sites that subscribe to the service.
Of course, if the business model for your (or my) website is reliant on banner ads which sing, dance, block content and generally make a pest of themselves and I want to stay in business then perhaps I'd better look at what else is available in the way of advertising that would support the site.
Nor am I arrogant enough to tell people coming to my site that they can't use an ad blocker. It's their machine, it's their browser they can do what they want.
If enough of my visitors are doing that I'm the one with the problem, not my visitors.
Simple enough?
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John
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Ads are eating up your bandwidth
Thanks but no thanks. I already pay my ISP for the use of the line. I'm not going to pay extra to be advertised at. Easylist is a great way to stop paying for "content" you just don't give a crap about.
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Ads aren't all bad.
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Please no one listen to what he says
Some one is a low-baller who is too scared to express there own opinions.
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Rick752
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