Is It Really So Bad If A Student Plagiarizes A Speech?
from the get-over-it dept
We've discussed how silly the concept of "plagiarism" is in many contexts once you look at the details. It's a concept that needs to be rethought -- as it often really represents someone reimagining a work in a different, and potentially valuable context. In fact, we've seen a few plagiarized defenses of plagiarism that are pieces of art by themselves.It can be especially silly in school, where what some people consider plagiarism is really no different than collaboration. And, in fact, what people complain is "plagiarism" in schools is the sort of thing that can often be considered perfectly reasonable as an adult. When a newscaster reads someone else's script, is that plagiarism? What about when a politician reads a speech by a speechwriter? In both cases they're "passing off" someone else's work as their own. And, of course, in the stand-up comedy world, "joke stealing" is considered a part of the business (the same is true in casual joke telling) -- and that's fine. Because the words themselves aren't always what's important. It's the delivery. Or the message. Or the actions to back up the words.
That's why it seems rather overblown to read about a local controversy in Palo Alto, California, as some graduation speeches apparently borrowed heavily from others. In the details provided, it sounds like the "plagiarism" mostly consisted of jokes. Again, repeating and sharing jokes is a crucial part of culture. Pretending that only one person can ever say a joke seems ridiculous -- especially on something where the delivery and presentation are so important. So, rather than condemning these kids for seeing some funny stories and incorporating them into their talks, can we start recognizing that maybe, just maybe, "plagiarism" isn't really as bad as some make it out to be.
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Filed Under: plagiarism, students
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Plagiarism is not cooperation, it's not even regular lying, it's fraud. You're fraudulently representing someone else's ideas as your own. Taking plagiarism lightly makes it ok to commit fraud... if that's ok with you then so be it, but it's not ok with me.
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Plagerising jokes?
And to assume that a graduation speech would be 100% original is dumb. If a kid thinks somebody's joke is representative of their feelings, let them go for it. I'd hate to think that people think that graduation speeches are some kind of chance to create the new great work of our time.
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If I read something, and think something that has been thought before, am I a plagurist?
Someone has probably said this before, but they may have used slightly different words, so I can't google for their words, and can't avoid 'plagurizing' their work.
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Is it really so bad?
JBB
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Not citing your source not necisarilly Plagiarism
Well, yes...actually it is. But a key point for me is that not citing your source when using non-original work is not necessarily plagiarism. It's about the presumption of authorship. For example, when a newscaster reads the news, I don't think anyone believes that they've written the copy. Same for speeches. Anyone who knows anything about politics understands that a modern politician doesn't stay up all night writing their own speeches. And what about jokes? Does the audience of a high school graduation believe that the kid wrote his own joke? Please. It's assumed that s/he heard it or read it somewhere.
But I think most people would presume that the actual content of a graduation speech is original. Again, the key point is about what a normal person, using common sense, would understand to be original and what's not.
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hmmmm....
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Maybe different
However, if you're a newscaster using someone else's script, or giving a speech based heavily on someone else's work, there no "award" for you to have at the end. There's only your reputation, And so, plagarism isn't so bad, since you are not "gaining" something unfairly. In fact, you might even innovate on the work, and come up with some slightly (but distinctively) different. I guess my main point is that plagarism in academic settings IS bad, and should be punished, even if plagarism in a broader sense needs to be reconsidered.
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Seriously
And for the record, that same joke was used at my High School graduation in 2001 and I'm sure it was used at other graduations before mine.
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"According to so-and-so, something funny happened to me on the way here..."
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All speeches plagiarized?
Nor is it important. The context is important, and should be a determining factor. While the expression of a common idea, joke, or "wow it's hot today" tidbit may not be universally original, it's still appropriate, relevant, and original to utilize it to connect with that particular conversation or event.
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my 2 cents
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Re: my 2 cents
You are not special, you are not a snowflake, grow up and realize that billions of people came before us and the probability that someone had the same thought as you is pretty high.
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Re: my 2 cents
Eventually, you won't be able to write even a single sentence without violating someone's copyright, because every conceivable phrase and sentence will have been written, and thus be under copyright to someone. By then, simply starting a speech with "My fellow students" or a letter with "Dear Sir" will put you in hot water, as either a plagiarist or a copyright infringer, or both.
But, rather than condemning you for seeing some pertinent quotes and incorporating them into your posts, I've started to recognize that maybe, just maybe, "plagiarism" isn't really as bad as some make it out to be.
And once every phrase and sentence is under copyright protection, copyright will become valueless, because every human will be forced, by necessity, to violate copyright, just to conduct their daily lives. Maybe, just maybe, at that point, our elected "leaders" will finally see that copyrighting everything automatically, and extending copyright to the ludicrous duration it currently receives, wasn't such a good idea after all (if you sing "Happy Birthday" in public, maybe even in the privacy of your own home, you are supposed to pay a performance royalty -- 114 years after the song was written). More likely, hell will freeze over first.
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Depends
But as for general content and examples - it's just a shame not to cite them properly. Reason being, the story behind the example adds meaningful context and reinforces the facts/examples/anecdotes. Even if you're giving an impromptu speech and you don't remember - it's called, "Someone once said," or "I've heard..."
Want to be extra sneaky about it and semi-cite? Form it as a question. "Did you hear...?"
To me, it comes short of the question of legality. Doing it right just makes your speech better.
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What would George say?
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Re:
There's no contradiction here at all. The point is not to focus on artificial limitations. If someone does nothing but plagiarize, then they won't get very far. But if they plagiarize in a way that makes something *better* gets it out to more people or improves upon it, that is innovation.
Where's the contradiction?
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As an example, many works are in the public domain and beyond the reach of copyright law. Are you suggesting that plagiarizing such works is perfectly ok?
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Re: Re: Re:
Telling someone they can't make any use of the work of others in crafting their own work.
Let me guess...that nasty thing known as copyright.
No. Plagiarism and copyright are entirely separate things.
As an example, many works are in the public domain and beyond the reach of copyright law. Are you suggesting that plagiarizing such works is perfectly ok?
Do not put words in my mouth. They don't prove your point, and, in fact, make you look like you can't read.
As I said, if someone does nothing but plagiarize, they won't get very far. But being able to use another work to do something more with it should be not just allowed, but encouraged.
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I put no such words in your mouth. I asked a question using a hypothetical where clearly copyright would not apply so that it would not be a factor in presenting your answer.
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And I answered your question.
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My take on this
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Plagiarism isn't that bad
As a child I was told that if I copied from a book or someone else it was plagiarism and I was told that it was illegal and I could be arrested for doing it in the real world, that's a little harsh isn't it?
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Re: Plagiarism isn't that bad
I agree with an earlier comment, regarding the presumption of authorship, and I agree that the fuss over a joke is ridiculous. But to go from that to the idea that plagiarism, in general, isn't that bad is unbelievably unethical.
In the "real world" you might not go to jail, but when caught, you'd surely lose your job and look like an ass while doing it.
Influence and transformation, when the inspiration(s) is recognized, is not plagiarism. Taking the work of others and claiming it as your own, or transforming a work without recognizing the primary influences, is just ass-hat shady.
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There is another reason - I am currently writing one of my graduating works (the last work before starting the diplom dissertation). I worked for the past 3 months quite hard, let's assume that someone plagiarizes a work, copy paste, changes name and date - less than 30 min work and to make even things worst, he gets a better note than me. I would feel really stupid for having spent that much time hard working and be demotivated and probably next time will copy/paste some others work, which would make the idea of writing such works for a university pointless. This is an argument I didn't see here, and I believe it is a vital one in this case.
Cheers,
Orlin
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Deceptive
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