Now Canadian Teachers Want Cyberbullying To Be A Criminal Offense

from the overreact-much? dept

Tue, Jul 22nd 2008 1:42pm — Mike Masnick

At some point, people need to realize that there are some people out there who just do jerkry things. In fact, at some point or another, probably most everyone is a jerk to someone else. It's no fun to be on the receiving end of someone being a jerk -- but it happens. However, in the last few years, there's been this silly focus on trying to turn online jerks into criminals. We've already highlighted such an effort underway in the US, but now a bunch of teachers in Canada are pushing to make cyberbullying a criminal offense. Yes, it's important to deal with cyberbullies, but charging them with a crime clearly goes too far.

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Filed Under: bullying, canada, cyberbullying, jerks, laws, teachers

30 Comments

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Lucretious, 22 Jul 2008 @ 2:09pm

yes, because kids will automatically learn to deal with difficult people the minute they turn 18.

Keep knocking off the sharp edges of the world and your kid will grow up to be afraid of his own shadow.
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Ven'Tatsu, 22 Jul 2008 @ 2:25pm

I might consider dealing with cyberbullying a worthwhile cause after teachers make and effort to deal with real world bullying.
If teachers can't deal with bullying in their own classrooms why do they think bullying that goes on far from their own field of vision will be something they can prevent?
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John, 22 Jul 2008 @ 2:28pm

Think you're missing something here. Cyberbullying can cause harm, even if its only stress and worry. Those can and do cause physical and mental harm. Face to face bullying is bad enough, and it is an assault. CB is worse because you can't face up and defend yourself against the assailant. I fully think the victims of regular bullying should stand up for themselves more, but something else is needed as a defense against CB. I don't think, however that the laws will be set right, 'tho.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jul 2008 @ 2:41pm

Re:
I think you're missing the point. Cyber bullying is something, that in the end, you can choose to ignore, you can delete comments messages etc. Almost every online community or app give you a means by which to deal with spam, annoying users, and so forth.

In contrast, say a real life bully... punches you in the face. That's not something you can simply delete or add to your ignore list.

I think a law like this is ridiculous.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jul 2008 @ 2:42pm

John, "being an asshole" isn't, and shouldn't be, a crime.

There are already laws in place against harassment, which should cover any of the serious cyber bullying that goes on.

It's just another attempt to demonise the internet, and some more "WE MUST PROTECT DA CHILDRUN!" crap from people who aren't doing their own jobs properly.

Like Ven'Tatsu says, if teachers and school authorities can't deal with bullying in real life, where you can *see* the bully and the victim out of the window, how on Earth do they expect anyone to do anything about bullying via email?

I agree that it shouldn't be something that's just laughed at and ignored, but making "cyber bullying" into a criminal offence isn't the right way. If anything, some basic education on how to use the internet would do wonders (an amazing amount of people don't seem to know how to block an email address, or block a contact on MSN, for example).
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jul 2008 @ 2:42pm

Re: missing something
but you can defend against cyber bullying. if it is attacks on a system, you can turn it into a legal matter with channels that are already in place. if it is only a 'verbal' issue most places and services allow methods of blocking, banning, ignoring, or otherwise stopping unwanted people from bugging you.

the internet is the great leveler for bullying, anyone can learn to defend themselves from verbal attacks
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Formerly Anonymous coward, 22 Jul 2008 @ 2:44pm

appropriate response
There is a very easy way to stop cyberbullying.
Turn off the computer. Disconnect the internet, being in these channels is a chioce, just like what you watch on TV, or listen to on the radio.
If you feel your child is not capable of dealing with what they may encounter in these areas, do not let your child go there unsupervised. Do you take your 5 year old to the ghetto to show them crack dealers?
If your child needs protection it is the parents job, not the laws, the provision of criminal law is to protect society. Not the individual, the individual needs to have some capability to look out for him/herself and their own family/property/personal preferences.
The answer is not always to litigate, sometimes the answer is personal accountability.
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Known Coward, 22 Jul 2008 @ 2:46pm

In the grand scheme of things is this really a big deal? I mean, yeah, kids can be jerks sometimes, hell I was one, I received my fair share of grief. But that is something that nearly every kid has had to deal with at some point in there life. Yeah it sucks, but so does hunger, famine, disease, drought, and war. But I guess I am missing the point, why protect our children from those things when we can criminalize being an ass. I guess we have to work on our priorities.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jul 2008 @ 2:49pm

Re:
You are definitely missing something John.

Life is not a nice safe place right now. Won't be for a while. For generations bullying has been the norm of school life. Even jocks get bullied at times (always older kids).

Cyberbullying should be dealt with similiarly. How do you deal with real life bullying? Two ways, usually done simultaneously.

A) Teach your kid to deal with it.
B) Punish the kid doing the bullying.

You can't do B if the parents of the Bully won't help either. All that will do is make it worse for the kid getting picked on. It pays to Know Your Foe.

I was picked on in elementary and middle school. I honestly wouldn't be who I am today without having been picked on.

Oddly enough, some of the people that used to beat me up have turned around to be decent folks once we were in high school. Some bullies do learn what they did was bad, and they regret it.

What if bullying had been a crime? Some of these guys are overall good guys - now at least. But if it was a crime they'd have a nasty record and possibly have gone to juvie which doesn't help anyone except a few rare cases.

Knee jerk reactions are dangerous. America is already paying for one we were led into by the Administration. Don't make things worse for future generations with yet another one.
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Matt, 22 Jul 2008 @ 3:02pm

Re: 100% agreed
This reminds me of a philosophical discussion that goes "if you killed every stupid person in the world nobody would be left" and the reasoning is that everyone appears stupid to someone by definition.

Same idea, if you made it illegal to "be an asshole" its too vague of a perception. 100% agreed on the rest of your phrases here.

If a kid doesn't know how to deal with bullying then obviously the parents have been failing at their job in the first place.
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Mark, 22 Jul 2008 @ 3:41pm

IMHO
When teachers have come to the point they would rather see the children they teach go to jail then succeed in life we have reached a very sad time.
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flanksteak, 22 Jul 2008 @ 6:48pm

Any part of bullying that constitutes a real threat to a person's well-being, whether online or IRL, is already covered by other laws.

Physical assault. Libel. Slander. Burglary or theft. Vandalism. Patterns of harassment can be fought with civil restrictions like restraining orders. I'd imagine there's even more fine-grained legal separations within the Code that apply.

We're left to wonder, what essential gaps remain in the current law that this legislation fills? Punishing people who write things that someone else gets butthurt about? As others have pointed out, that pretty much covers everyone, including the person who's building up a good head of steam reading my own post right now.

Ending bullying is a fine, high-minded sentiment. I'm sure we'll eventually get to it, probably shortly after we end war, poverty, and all get those cool flying cars that fold up into briefcases like the Jetsons.

In the interim, however, this just feeble, feel-good political grandstanding by yet another politician. All sound and fury, signifying nothing, as it were.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jul 2008 @ 7:03pm

Re:
Learning not to care is a good trick for dealing with any bullying. And it builds up those oh so important middle finger muscles.
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Blaise Alleyne (profile), 23 Jul 2008 @ 5:49am

Re:
Just because laws against CB are ridiculous doesn't mean that it can't be addressed in other ways. Of course it's a problem, but it shouldn't be a criminal offence.

Teachers can work to combat it, in the same way they work to combat bullying. Parents can teach their children to handle it, just like they do with bullying (it's not as if people stop being jerks when they're adults).

Everything that causes harm shouldn't be illegal.
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tee'd off, 23 Jul 2008 @ 6:18am

The worst part of this all is the un-even enforcement of this law. Teachers who are "cyber-bullied" will always have the maximum penalty applied against the perpetrators. While for students who receive similar treatment, their bully's only get a slap on the wrist (or a "children can be so mean").

So let's be honest here this isn't a let's protect the children scenario at all.
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Abdul, 23 Jul 2008 @ 7:01am

Internet Harrasment on the Rise!!
According to a new report, internet harrasment has been on the rise and one of the reasons put forward for this increase is the inadequacy of legislation to deal with it. I think the canadian authorities are doing the right thing and should be commended: Internet Harassment Is on the Rise, Research Shows(http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?section_id=665&doc_id=159390&F_src=flftwo)
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Chronno S. Trigger, 23 Jul 2008 @ 7:33am

Re: Internet Harassment on the Rise!!
Research shows that Internet usage is on the rise. Take a wild guess what else is on the rise. Things moving to the Internet, both good and bad. It's just another tool. I'd bet your research doesn't add that part now douse it?
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Ben Taylor, 23 Jul 2008 @ 8:01am

Going too far? More like about bloody time. Have you not heard the horrible stories of kids committing suicide because of the bullying they are subjected to online? Of course it should be a crime. Bullying is NOT okay.
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John Wilson, 23 Jul 2008 @ 1:28pm

At times I'm almost ashamed of being Canadian
And it's usually times like this when a group of people calls out to criminalize, oh, say, cyberbullying.

I'm also at a total loss to find anything that it would improve. Oh, it feels good to those calling for it because it imposes the greatest legal sanction the state has against the behaviour. And it is, of course, about protecting the children.

OK..that's out of the system now then let's take the time to actually look at why it won't work.

First of all as it would be a criminal offence the Crown and only the Crown (is US parlance the State) could bring a charge forward under the new Criminal Code offence. Crown Counsel (Prosecutor in US parlance) would have to look at the charge to see if there's enough chance of a conviction to even take it into a Criminal Court. Then the charge has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt which is hard to do. I can't imagine what evidence would manage that for one thing.

Secondly if you can do that the offender, often also a young person 18 or under, will be tried and sentenced as a young offender.

As critics of Canada's Young Offenders Act have correctly pointed out the main problem with the Act is the lack of any real consequences for criminal behaviour. Sanction without consequences is no sanction at all. I'm not in any way advocating that young offenders be treated with the same harshness as adult offenders, by the way. Though those of us living in British Columbia often think that adult sentences are something of a bad joke.

Oh, and as shaming is one of the most effective ways of dealing with a bully a tool for doing that is removed simply because the Young Offenders Act forbids publication of the name of the accused/convicted young offender.

So just exactly what has been accomplished here other than to ensure that it is actually harder to "protect the children" than it is now.

Left as a civil action all that is needed to deal with a kid is what is called, in legal terms balance of probabilities a far lower standard of proof that what's required in a criminal proceeding. In short the way discipline, what there is of it, is carried out in school systems right now. It's also possible to discipline a group of children without having to deal with proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Let's also remember here that cyberbullying is started and done at its worst by kids the victim already knows. Others on places like Facebook and YouTube may join in from around the world but the start always occurs with a known perpetrator or perpetrators. People that know you are also the ones who can cut the deepest with this.

Let's also remember that studies have shown that the vast majority of cyberbullies are girls and that their victims are girls.

One of (the only?) saving graces of teenage boy macho culture is that it demands that issues are dealt with face to face. Male perpetrators are an order of magnitude fewer than female perpetrators.

The problem with do-gooders, at least in Canada, is that they want good to be done but are reluctant to do it themselves. It's easy to say that "I've done something" and forget it by passing motions like the one the national teachers organization did that call for criminalization of a behaviour then sit back and do nothing but complain when it doesn't or can't happen for reasons like those I've outlined above.

Still, they get to say they've done something when, in fact, they've done nothing at all. Less than nothing, in fact.

ttfn

John
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A Different John, 23 Jul 2008 @ 2:25pm

Re:
Ya know, if it weren't for the fact that kids were offing themselves, I'd have to agree with you, but when 30, 40 and 50-somthing year old adults relentlessly text, email, phone, create malicious web sites to threaten, embarass, humiliate, blackmail and extort kids (who by the way may already be getting picked on/bullied in school, on the way home from school, near their own homes, etc.) I don't think this is just a matter of punishing someone who's being a jerk, it's to get the people who don't give it a rest...who are told to stop and don't, figuring, who's gonna stop me.
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Troy, 3 Mar 2009 @ 10:30am

WTF???
IF kids would justfollow the status quo everything would just be chill. Cause its when prople like nick pipe jacking off in the library that internet fights start. So if he would of followed the status quo and kept it in his pants everybody would live in harmony.
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Cindy in Canada, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:41pm

bullying in general
when our children walk into school, they shed their rights as a person. If someone walks up, slugs your kid, and he swings back, it's his ass going to the office to get yelled at. I did all the conventional things for my boy, meet the teacher/parent/other kid... How many beatings must they take before they're permitted to land one honest slap on their tormentor?
My kid is bigger now, and he absolutely refuses to be beaten on anymore. Last week, a large kid put a smaller kid(by the neck) over a steel railing, and proceeded to 'pile drive' with an elbow on that kid's neck, over the f'n rail. How long did they want three or four kids to wait? Takes about five to ten minutes to fetch some teacher to stop it. The child could have been killed, maimed, or destroyed. My son threw off the attacker, saved the small boy, who immediately collapsed. He got screamed at, threatened with expulsion...excuse me. My kid saved that little boy's life, without doubt. I gave him $100 cash, and told him he was my hero, if no one else's. So for this zero tolerance bs, if ya wanna play that game, put the f'n coffee down, get yer high assed attitude onto the playground, and protect the children. If they don't want to do that, return to us the right to sue. Recently, a six year old child choked to death after being sent to the bathroom--she thought he was going to puke on her classroom floor. He died. They refused an inquest, his mother hung herself. Our schools have no accountability, and our children are defenceless in them. I disagree with bullying, and throwing kids in jail. But I will never tell my son to stand and let some asshole slap him around. You swing on him, ya best be ready for a full on punch, square in your uneducated mouth. How canadian is that? For any who take offence, in any way to any single word, phrase, collection of such, or otherwise, bite me. When your child is delivered to you in a body bag, and you can't do shit all about it, come on back, and we'll debate self defence and human rights in canadian schools.
DarthMom
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Olivia, 23 Apr 2009 @ 10:48am

of course it should be a criminal offense...bullying is harrasment whether it is in person or not. im sure if you were the one being tormented you would feel the same way...
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olivia, 23 Apr 2009 @ 10:50am

Re: Re:
so what about when the bully send it to everyone at school?? are you telling me that people arent going to bully someone in person for things like that?? that is the whole point CB leads to real world bullying. they are the same thing!
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دردشه, 5 Jul 2009 @ 2:21pm

they are the same thing
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شات صوتى, 17 Jul 2009 @ 8:00am

hi
they
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Rathan Nose, 23 Nov 2009 @ 9:10am

You guys should stop cyber bullying eachother
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Rathan Nose, 23 Nov 2009 @ 9:29am

I too agree with everyone on here that cyber bullying should not be a criminal offense. If a kid can't deal with someone talking shit about him/her over a computer how is he/she going to survive in the real world. Cyber bullying is a joke, a kid shouldn't be hurt by the comments someone has posted about them. Especially if the bully is too childish to not say it to the kids face. try turning off your computer.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2010 @ 1:18pm

Kids commit suicide as a result of cyber bullying. They bully, the source of the psychological trauma, shouldn't be held accountable?
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lrobbo (profile), 29 May 2012 @ 4:19pm

Each case needs to treated on its individual merit. I mean some of the Facebook trolling that goes on here in the UK has resulted in prison sentences recently.
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