Don't Blame One Wal-Mart Employee For Dumb Copyright Comments
from the wrong-target dept
A bunch of folks have submitted this BoingBoing story about a Wal-Mart employee making some dumb (and incorrect) comments concerning copyright to a guy who was trying to scan some century-old photos of his family. Wal-Mart and some other convenience stores have had policies in place for years that they won't reprint or scan images that might still be under copyright. Yes, it's a silly policy, but the convenience stores feel they need to do this to avoid ridiculous lawsuits from copyright holders, which we all know are far too common these days. The problem here is copyright law, not necessarily the Wal-Mart policy, no matter how ridiculous the end results are. In fact, Wal-Mart has supported important changes to copyright law, such as an orphan works bill, that would enable it to avoid such liabilities.So the fact that one slightly ignorant Wal-Mart employee took that policy to an extreme in stopping this guy from scanning century-old photos of his family shouldn't be seen as Wal-Mart's problem. It's a problem of the way copyright works these days, the nature of copyright-related lawsuits these days, and the general culture of "content ownership" that's being promoted by vested interests that make folks, like the ignorant Wal-Mart employee, think that copyright lasts forever, and scanning 100-year-old photos of your grandparents is copyright infringement. When the entertainment industry is allowed to go into schools with its own "educational" programs on copyright, that pretty much ignore fair use, it should come as no surprise that Wal-Mart workers don't know what's going on. So, don't blame this one Wal-Mart employee -- blame the copyright system and the worldview (and legal environment) that its strongest supporters have created.
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I don't think that Wal-Mart should be raked over the coals over this but I do believe that they should be proactive in making sure that their employees, not just this one individual, understand the policies they are expected to enforce. I would bet that Wal-Mart has more than one employee who believes the same as this guy but perhaps those employees just aren't as concerned about enforcing it.
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I think the point is that copywright law is so complex that WalMart would need to send this guy to law school and then a seven year internship on capital hill before he would have a firm enough grasp on the information necessary to enforce it. I am not the OP but I think that was more his point.
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I thought the issue was about a Coca Cola billboard in the background or something?
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Not true. Copyright law applies to all photographs. Whether you enforce your rights is another thing entirely, and usually only professional photographers will bother.
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I had a similar experience at WallyWorld with a studio photograph taken 50+ years ago. They pulled out a document from (I believe) FUJI which said in no case should any studio photograph be reproduced **ever**.
I could/should have lied and said I took the picture 50 years ago, but I just don't look old enough. It sure ruined my plans to do a nice picture for a memorial service.
At what point can I legally reproduce that picture???
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I have a completely different beef
Why should I commission them and not become the owner of said production?
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Re: I have a completely different beef
Most photographers retain ownership of the images and sell you copies, it is their business model. If you contract them to photograph an event and dont read the release that you signed before they were taken, well your just not too bright.
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Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
No, I'm the guy that always has the negatives to any photo he wants reproduced. But thanks for asking.
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Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
lol... I dont know many photographers that still produce "negatives". Film based photography in the professional world has been dead and buried for a long time, it just isnt cost effective. Are you saying that you attempt to browbeat them until you get all your digital files in RAW format?
I would offer you the same deal I do to anyone else requesting those files, pay the extra money for the extra product or kindly find another phtographer you can attempt to take advantage of.
I still contend you are not too bright though.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
Nope, haven't been to a studio since I got my first digital camera and tripod. It just isnt (sic) cost effective to go to a studio.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
So, he is a demanding customer that drives a hard bargain. If you aren't willing to work with that, don't. I am sure some are. Our wedding photographer charged us a flat rate, and then provided us with all the negatives, both the 35mm ones and the 2x2 ones, whatever those are called. But, he also offered REASONABLY priced prints. Guess what? Most of my family bought prints from him, and they bought way more than they would have at the normally outrageous prices.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
However "retain" and "turn over" indicate to me that the we are talking past tense.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
You greatly underestimate the cost of the:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
Seems like YOU should have to pay your victims, er, customers, for the privilege of using their likenesses and their photos to promote your business.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
If you can negotiate a different deal up front, fine. If you dont like it, have great aunt Maude pull out her Kodak disc camera and shoot your formals for you.
What I am saying is, if you sign a contract to have a pro shoot your event you are obligated to pay for the services. You do not get to decide after the fact that you dont like the pricing scheme and that you dont want to pay for the products at the agreed price. If you duplicate those photos you are in the wrong, plain and simple.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
Those of you who have the option to buy the copyright are most likely buying an unlimited use contract as well. Normally you pay an extra fee which reimburses the photographer for the loss of sales from prints. Picking a good photographer is the key to being happy with the end result in any situation. YES, there are photographers who take advantage with outrageous prices. They will be out of business soon.
Whoever gave the example about the building someone a house, that it doesn't mean they can charge you to use it. Well the building isn't covered under copyright, but the blueprints are. If you copied that house and rebuilt a replica (or 100), prepare to be sued. Just because you bought the house, doesn't give you the right to steal the creative works of the architect. Same thing with photos, just because you are buying a house, doesn't mean you bought the rights to the design behind it and can reproduce it freely and just because you bought a photo doesn't mean you can reproduce it freely.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
Obviously you are missing something here. If I pay for the final product, it, and all rights associated with it, should belong to me. I also do web design and graphics work, I would never consider something that someone else bought and paid for to be mine. My skills are worth something, but when I'm done on a job, it belongs to the individual who paid me. My skills, techniques, and general designs are mine to use however I see fit, but the product delivered to the customer is not. I always request permission from the client to use copies of the final product. Why? Because its the right thing to do. I get paid well, I don't need to try and force someone to pay me multiple times for the same job. When the job is done to the client's satisfaction, or exceeds their satisfaction, they tell people about it. This generates more work, which generates more referals, and so on. If you feel the need to strangle your clients for every penny, well, don't know what to say except you must have a lot of extra time.
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Someone apparently doesn't understand the "work-for-hire" doctrine. Yes, if the recording engineers and cameramen were working independently, they'd be getting the copyright to their respective works. However, in most cases, the work-for-hire doctrine assigns their copyright to their employer: the producer. So don't scoff at the authorship of a recording engineer or a cameraman; if they were working independently, they indeed would have rights to their works.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
Which in the case of a wedding production would be those that produced the wedding and hired the photographer to photograph it. That's why wedding photographers like to get signed contracts changing that around because otherwise they wouldn't get the copyright.
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Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
I work in printing, this is just a fringe benefit.
Copyright means nothing to most in the print biz. It just pisses off the customer and they go to someone who will copy or print whatever comes through the door. The word is rarely mentioned.
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Re: Re: Re: I have a completely different beef
Maybe there needs to be a PIAA to sue people like you for blatantly stealing others property then distributing it.
Maybe they could find a way to actually get the money into the original photographers hands though
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:D
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Re: I have a completely different beef
With the attitude you have, I would never welcome you into my portrait studio!
You buy a CD, does that mean you now own the songs?
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Re: I have a completely different beef
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this happens
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CUSTOMERS PROVIDING MATERIALS FOR CPOYING OR PRINTING ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ENSURING THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO REPRODUCE THOSE MATERIALS. THE CUSTOMER IS ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY POSSIBLE INFRINGEMENT OF ANY COPYRIGHT LAW.
I am not a freaking cop. It isn't my job to interigate people to make sure they are legitimately copying a picture of their great-grandma.
Of course, that statement wont protect me from a lawsuit. Logic and reason wont either apparently.
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Walmart Sucks
I have not been in a walmart in almost a decade and have no plans to ever go back.
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Re: Walmart Sucks
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Don't Get Mad
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The heart of the matter
So, yes, don't blame one Wal-Mart employee for dumb copyright comments, but DO blame the company leadership for failing to properly train/educate their employees. DO hold that company leadership liable for any legal issues that arise from failing to properly train their employees.
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Re: The heart of the matter
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Re: The heart of the matter
Agreed. That's just what I was going to say but you beat me to it.
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Maybe I'm just a techie
The one I've done look better than the originals.
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walmart copyright issues
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Copyright doesn't apply
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The employee works for Walmart. Walmart policies drive them to be concerned about copyright. Walmart either needs to tell all employees to leave customers the hell alone OR they need to thoroughly educate them on copyright law so they won't lose business because of wage-monkey idiots who don't know what they're talking about.
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Wal-Mart Photo
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Re: Wal-Mart Photo
Their most recent beef? Wal-Mart refused to print her photographs of their newborn baby girl because she did a little color balancing and modified the lighting to make it look crisper. Wal-Mart told her to come back with a release form; she no longer uses either service.
Lesson learned here: With the advent of decent digital cameras, photo manipulation software and good home photo printers there this is just one more reason to avoid retail printers.
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Re: Wal-Mart Photo
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Depends on the contract you sign when you hire the photographer. As "some old guy" said above, he won't deal with a photographer who won't agree to transfer copyright to the photos as part of the contract. Copyright is vested in the person who creates a work (in this case a photograph).
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OMFG
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Re: OMFG
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Okay..
1. buy an all in one fax/scanner/printer.
2. Go home and print it yourself.
Seriously, you can get them for like $50 now.
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Do a Sidestep
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Surprised Walmart would open themselves to litigation
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Anyone I give images on disc to can go in with the disc and get it printed at walmart if they so desire. I laser my name and phone number on the dics, along with my business logo, and a disc #. I also include a letter of authorization (on the disc, as well as a printed copy) which allows them to print "X" number (usually unlimited) of any of the images included on disc # (whatever). do NOT give them the copyright, just the right to print. They also do not get raw images, but downsized jpgs (large enough for 8 X 10)
Frankly, walmart print quality sucks, and I recommend them to my own printer, who cost about $2 more for an 8X10 but comes up with images 100% better.
Why photographers cost so much? Humph. Ever had to spend 12 hours with a bridezilla and her family on the wedding day? As well as provide a second photographer to spend the day with groom and his guys? Believe me, I earn every penny of it. I don't sell prints, I get paid for my time and my ability like any other worker does. When they want "those fancy" images, I charge for processing time too.
I don't work for free, and I don't imagine too many people do. Do you think the equipment comes free? Nice if it did, but no, there are expenses.
I do pro-bono work for charity fundraisers (ie: for free), but I gotta earn a living like anyone else.
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Photo Release
Print it, sign it illegibly, take it with you when you pick up your photos!
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No, I prefer to blame Walmart
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Ummmm - what ?
Professional photographers do not go to Wallmart for their photographic needs.
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These photos could be under copyright
The Copyright Act provides the following:
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§ 303. Duration of copyright: Works created but not published or copyrighted before January 1, 1978
(a) Copyright in a work created before January 1, 1978, but not theretofore in the public domain or copyrighted, subsists from January 1, 1978, and endures for the term provided by section 302. In no case, however, shall the term of copyright in such a work expire before December 31, 2002; and, if the work is published on or before December 31, 2002, the term of copyright shall not expire before December 31, 2047.
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Whether these century-old works would have been "copyrighted" is governed by the 1909 Copyright Act. That act provided that the works became subject to copyright protection when the copyright was registered. The photos could have gone into the public domain under the 1909 act if they were published without a copyright notice. And to have been "copyrighted," the photographer (or whomever else may have been able to claim ownership) would have had to register those works. So if as of January 1, 1978 the photos remained unpublished and the copyrights had not been registered, the copyright would have naturally run to 12/31/2002. But if at some time between 1/1/78 and 12/31/2002 the photos were first published, the copyright in them would extend to the life of the author (photographer) plus 70 years, or 12/31/2047, whichever is later.
I don't mean to say that this slight probability somehow realistically legitimates Wal--Mart's irrational fear. I'm just sayin'.
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About my 7 years old daughter got ranover by a cart.
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Wal-Mart Copyrights and Check-Out Experience
Greetings from a Wal-Mart Supercenter cashier…
Many customers who used the self-checkouts prior to the remodel of our store often required the most hald holding. i.e. They were inept when it came to operating the register, slowed down the lines and caused problems for other customers and employees.
Why were the self checkouts removed from many Wal-Mart stores? – Due to a high level of theft.
As a cashier – the following issues are worthy of mention:
To those of you from India – please do not bring an item to the check out you have no intent of purchasing only to ask for a price check or simply to say I don’t want this.
To the wanna be rich person – Get off your cell phone when you are in line and stop telling your friend on the phone you just left Tar-shay (Target) Are you shopping at Wal-Martay too… What a bottom feeder.
The light above the register really has a purpose other than to look pretty. When the light is on – the lane is open to serve you. When the cashier is closing down his/her line the light will be turned off… This is not an invitation for you to stand in line behind the last person who was rightfully in line before the light was extinguished.
Maybe this will make some sense to you… A green light gives you the right-of-way but when you are about half way through an intersection someone who does not stop for a red light slams into your car….. It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood!!! – Just imagine, most of us learned about traffic lights in Kindergarten. Oh I am sorry – you were absent that day – and have been absent for most of your life to afford others common courtesy.
If your store isn’t like mine, perhaps you are shopping at a Wal-Mart “in the hood…”
Thanks for your business – Employees really appreciate the contribution your tax dollars make towards public assistance programs.
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