Bills Introduced To Protect Laptops At Border Searches
from the restoring-the-4th-amendment dept
As was widely expected following earlier statements from politicians such as Russ Feingold, legislation has now been introduced that would curb Homeland Security's ability to randomly search laptops at the border, instead, requiring them to have a "reasonable suspicion" of illegal activity before they can search or copy a hard drive. This would be a huge step forward in terms of reasonable levels of privacy at the border. While defenders of the random search program claim that it's necessary, they give little proof. You can tell because their arguments could equally be applied to searching a random person on the street as well, as they just give vague platitudes about protecting the country from harm. Yet our country has privacy rights and probable cause for a very good reason. It's nice to actually see some politicians standing up to make sure that Homeland Security live up to those ideals.
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Filed Under: border, customs, homeland security, laptops, russ feingold, searches
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Why are the borders special?
Well the state can stop and search a random person on the street anytime they want too, as long as they have reasonable suspicion (which is anything the state says it is). I dont see why people on the border are subject to additional protections? I dont understand why you guys are so concerned with the rights of terrorists and criminals yet seem uninterested in protecting the country that insures those rights?
VOTE McCain 2008 - The politics of failure have failed, together we can make them work again.
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Re: Why are the borders special?
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Re: Why are the borders special?
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Re: Why are the borders special?
Actually you answered your own question.
In the initial bill, anyone could be searched whether there was reasonable suspicion or not.
That was the difference...
Now the searches are on par as on the street. You get searched if there is reasonable suspicion.
BTW, the politics of failure has failed? Yet, you'd vote for a person who'd keep following the same path as G.W. Bush? (stay the course, as they say)
You probably also believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 (it didn't, Al-Qaeda is an Afghan group), and that there were WMDs stashed there (there weren't, not north, south, east nor west of Bagdad) and that this war in Iraq can be won (it can't, it's Vietnam 2.0)
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Re: Re: Why are the borders special?
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Re: Re: Re: Why are the borders special?
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Re: Re: Why are the borders special?
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Re: Re: Why are the borders special?
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Re: Re: Re: Why are the borders special?
I think you may be a little naive. I know some of his type personally and, believe me, they aren't kidding with that stuff.
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Re: Why are the borders special?
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Re: Re: Why are the borders special?
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Re: Why are the borders special?
I don't know if I would want "politics of failure" to work again.
I want a new kind of politic.
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Re: Why are the borders special?
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Fourth Amendment
Why do we need a separate law to say "No, we really mean it when we say
@NeoConBushSupporter - If you're not deliberately trolling, you might consider sitting in on a high school civics lesson or two.
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Re: Fourth Amendment
Would it make you happier if they made up something to justify "reasonable suspicion" first?
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Re: Fourth Amendment
NeoConBushSupporter must be a troll, as making a statement like that isn't even close to conservative beliefs.
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Re: Re: Fourth Amendment
What does George Bush or the republican party have to do with conservative beliefs?
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Re: Re: Re: Fourth Amendment
Thank you. Conservatism is about limiting the power of the federal government, not expanding it to new heights, as the bush administration has done.
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Re: Fourth Amendment
Conservatism is about limiting the power of the federal government
OH! Ooooh, ouch... damn, you made me spray coffee out my nose....
"Conservative" doesn't refer to a government world view, but a social world view. It's a push for puritanicalistic controls and expectations in the population, however big government has to get to enforce it.
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Re: Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Because they are not in the USA yet but on the way in so its a gray zone and they have no rights in limbo.
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Re: Re: Fourth Amendment
"Shall not be violated [...] but upon probable cause, supported by Oath"
Hmmm. Still not seeing where it says "... except at the border, where the stormtroopers have free reign"
Limbo, huh? So, just... no rights at all? We're cattle, then? Can they shoot us just to see what happens?
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Random Searches
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I can't believe..
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Re: I can't believe..
"VOTE McCain 2008 - The politics of failure have failed, together we can make them work again."
McCain 2008 = Politics of failure
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Freedoms?
I cross the border weekly and have never so much as been questioned except for the usual, "Do you have any produce?" line of questions, that are more a health issue than a security one. So I think there is a bit too much overreaction to the whole inspection process.
btw- Both political parties are the same monster in a different colored hat. You can go Socialism by 2012 with Obama, or you can maintain some semblance of "freedom" with McCain while the government takes over anyway, but in the end the victor will be torn down by the people as not living up to promises of change because Change is not possible while the system still exists. For example either Iraq option will cause issues: pulling out of Iraq and bringing terrorism back to US borders from the vacuum currently formed in Iraq is bad, while staying in Iraq and causing another few hundred soldiers' deaths while keeping terrorists occupied with the worlds finest military also bad. Which is worse?
So instead of arguing about who, why not come up with a solution to the two-party mess. Partisanship is the root of the current problems and neither side is free of blame, and as long as there are sides there will be no solutions.
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Re: Freedoms?
I agree, Obama and his liberal allies in Congress are spending all thier time practicing partisan politics while the country is in crisis. Now is not the time for blame, now is the time for solutions . . . we need more Americans like you.
VOTE McCain 2008 - Say NO to the partisan politics of Washington insiders!
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Re: Re: Freedoms?
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Political direction
America was founded on getting away from taxation and oppression. Looks like we didn't get very far.
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Many of us say that about most politicians. But I guess those who watch too much TV news think one party is actually better than the other. Anymore, if you kinda pull your head out of the sand and look at - not what they say - but what they do, it seems to be one big happy party, with two 'factions' that debate on how to execute a specific agenda - but anymore the overall agenda doesn't seem to be debated much; just how to go about it. The 'bail-out' bill's a prime example. Why don't they 'bail-out' all the people who have been foreclosed on, instead of the banks?
Has everybody forgotten the independant party? We need to get worthy candidates to run independantly.
That's EXACTLY what we need - one or two more parties. I will likely be voting for NO member of the Democratic or Republican party, except for a few people here and there, but that's dependent on the particular candidate.
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Re:
Informed people are the worst! Always spouting off about facts and truth. Facts and truth dont protect this country, facts and truth dont put bread on the table.
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Re:
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This is really about child porn
If you break a law of the USA outside of the country, it is still illegal in this country. You must be held accountable for your actions.
Now for those who want to let all the child mongers come and go as they please and not get caught, then lets vote this law through. For those that want to stop or potentally prevent the inoncent praying on of children, then stop this law. If it goes through, who knows what else will be caught, maybe a terrorist, maybe some trade secrets being stolen, etc. People are stupid and do leave things on their computer. If your upset about this then what are you hiding?
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Re: This is really about child porn
This all started because a guy had child porn on his laptop.
Again, as before, not to be too crass about it, but So what?
Now for those who want to let all the child mongers come and go as they please and not get caught,
Puffery. Straw man. Hot air. BS. Fool's Gambit.
Not to mention an outright lie. Defending rights and liberties does not make me a pornographer, a terrorist, an agent of espionage, or a supporter of such in any fashion. It makes me a good citizen, defending the principles upon which this nation was founded and has flourished. It means I recognize the trade of liberty for security as the fast track to losing both.
I see no reason to trade away this nation's hard won freedoms so casually as has been done during this administration. Shame on you.
If your upset about this then what are you hiding?
This is your lesson for the day, people. Read this message and understand it for what it is.
This is the banner and the mantra under which opressive and totaletarian regimes come in. Nobody wakes up and decides to give away their freedom, their freedoms are bought from them one piece at a time. Give up this freedom and we'll protect you from another enemy at the gates.
Tell us what we want to know.
Show us what we want to see.
Give us what we wnat to have.
No, no, don't argue. Aren't you a loyal citizen?
Or are you one of Them?
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Re: This is really about child porn
(i.e. let's try to eliminate as much of their future freedom as we can. They won't be good future slaves if they have too much freedom.)
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Second the standards of reasonable cause also don't apply to the border. They can search you, your body cavities and your luggage if they want to. You have tacitly "signed up for that" when you leave the country and cross the border coming back in. If an Iranian ship comes into our harbors, do we really want to accord it 4th amendment protections from inspection? How about a North Korean boat? Again same answer.
So let's not get preachy about this. There are plenty of reasons why our border patrols can search whatever they want when something comes into the country. That has been the state of constitutional law for decades--and no that is not a neocom invention.
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Re:
If an Iranian ship comes into our harbors, do we really want to accord it 4th amendment protections from inspection? How about a North Korean boat?
There's what most reasonable people might call a "Big Fucking Difference" between a foreign ship entering a harbor and an individual at the border.
There is, further, what those same reasonable people might similarly characterize as a difference, between one or more people from a known hostile state and a citizen of our own country... not to put too fine a point on it.
And neverminding the SC's thoughts, nowhere in my reading of the Constitution do I see it state "... except at the border".
What other rights do we surrender at the border? Do I still have the right to speak and worship as I please? Am I still protected against cruel or unusual punishment?
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Re:
That depends upon who you ask.
It seems that you would really like for people stop discussing this issue. Why's that? What's your stake in it?
You already said that. You're basically just repeating your first point in a misleading attempt to make it look like an additional point.
No, I didn't (as much as you and your apparent buddies would like to pretend otherwise).
Then quit preaching.
Sorry, didn't fly for freedom lovers 200 years ago and still doesn't today. The founders of country knew that government agents would try to use them those kinds of arguments to destroy our liberty, hence the 4th amendment.
The law used to condone slavery too before it was finally changed. That still didn't make it right.
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Independent = never going anywhere
As long as our system relies on the electorial college system, no independent will ever be elected, it's just not possible with the current system.
No matter what the 'popular' vote is (that's you and me going to the poles and voting - and it has no effect on which candidate gets elected - other than 'suggesting' to our state's electors who we would like to see elected, the state has no obligation to select the candidate that won the popular vote), the states electorial votes will still go to one of the major party candidates (ie. the system is rigged). If we had a true democracy where the people's vote actually mattered, then a strong independent candidate may have a chance, but in the republic we live in, it's just not possible.
Hmm... The government in the Star Wars was a republic before the corrupt rose to positions of power and assumed total control creating the Empire (during military events the people gave up their freedom to the government in exchange for promises of protection - see any similarities to our government 'seizing' our freedoms in exchange for promises of 'protection'?). So obviously the only solution is to call in the Jedi to remedy the situation, oh wait, we don't have any Jedi, guess we're screwed no matter what we do....
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Its legal....get used to it!
Although the Supreme Court has not addressed the standard of suspicion necessary for a warrantless border search of electronic materials, the current jurisprudence, guided by Ickes and Arnold suggests that customs officers may search any electronic materials (including laptops, CDs, MP3 players, cellular phones, and digital cameras) randomly, without any suspicion, and without any first amendment restrictions.
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Re: Its legal....get used to it!
I understand the courts have upheld this. Courts can be wrong. People can disagree with the court's decisions. Discussion about these disagreements is how a free society arrives at more equitable laws and enforcement thereof.
These border searches are an offense to the notions of freedom and liberty, and are directly counter to what is written in the Constitution. I feel Customs, as an agent of our government, is overstepping the bounds of decency and liberty. I am not alone in this feeling.
Speaking out is how change begins. Chanting "It's legal get used to it!" is childish and unhelpful. If you feel this is good policy, defend it on its merits. That a court has upheld bad policy (my opinion) is not a merit as such.
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DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
DHS
Someone should introduce a bill to fire the private contractors, including and especially Blackwater.
They are waging war on American citizens and this is a travisty.
I personally have been assaulted with a non-leathal weapon and am recieving electronic torture and mind control, I believe the culprits were Blackwater.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]