Gov't Computers Used To Dig Up Info On Joe The Plumber
from the and-so-it-goes dept
We have pointed out in the past that people need to realize that any government database of info will be abused. It's almost impossible for it not to be abused. People use it to look up info on ex-girlfriends or friends or relatives. The data is there, and if someone has access to it, it's simply too tempting not to look up some info, no matter what "safety precautions" are in place.Over on Slashdot there's yet another example of this happening, as apparently three separate people accessed various databases to look up info on Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher, better known as "Joe the Plumber," right after the third Presidential debate, in which Joe was a central part of the discussion. It's not entirely clear what the nature of those database lookups were, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was just individuals who knew they had access to the government databases, and were just curious and couldn't resist looking. But, what's more interesting is that no one caught this database snooping until the Columbus Dispatch asked for log information.
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Filed Under: databases, government, joe the plumber, privacy
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Databases
Why limit your statement to government databases? Your phrase would be better as "any database of info will be abused." Want to bet that Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher has been looked up on private databases, included those kept by credit bureaus?
But, what's more interesting is that no one caught this database snooping until the Columbus Dispatch asked for log information.
I am unsure of why you are surprised. I am sure that the government has hundreds of thousands of users and I would be willing to be that no one is assigned to watch for people looking up Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher. Even if someone was watching, they would likely have no idea whether the usage was legitimate.
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Re: Databases
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Re: Re: Databases
A similar situation is in place where I work (under ITAR regulations). Among other things, every email sent or received at work is audited at the end each month. Which is a good reason that I have not given out my work email to ANYBODY outside the company. And I do my personal email with my cellphone.
Some companies care enough to put teeth in the rules. The government needs to do the same.
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Re: Re: Re: Databases
The fact is that when authorized staff by design is given access to data, auditing of this access is rare although almost guaranteed to be logged.
When a database produces millions of individual log entries per 24 hours there is no way to verify all the "normal" traffic.
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Re: Re: Databases
Then the database should not be kept, at least not by those who cannot insure it's security.
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Re: Re: Re: Databases
Then the database should not be kept, at least not by those who cannot insure it's security.
Assumption: A database containing personal information exists.
Assumption: The database is maintained for some ostensibly legitimate purpose.
Assumption: The database is accessed by users.
Assumption: A monitoring program, or log, exists to document who accesses the database.
Assumption: Because taxpayers or stockholders prefer to pay only for those things that add value, no one is proactively monitoring database access.
Conclusion:
Either all databases must be eliminated.
Or
The limitations of databases must be considered when placing yourself in a position to be included as a member of the database.
Essentially, you are advocating elimination of all databases. It will never happen.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Databases
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Joe the
Still isn't a real plumber.
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Re: Joe the
A private citizen challenges a politician on an issue, and since you disagree with him, then, what, attack the private citizen?
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Re: Re: Joe the
Americans are becoming this people of "do the least to make the most".
Douchebag should go get licensed and stop bitching about the world.
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Re: Re: Re: Joe the
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
To me this is a compliment.
I understand this is an insult from you, but you obviously are clueless about what socialism is.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
Think I understand history...Thanks,
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
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Re: Joe the
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Re: Re: Joe the
What I disagree with is claiming you are a plumber when your state says that you are not unless you are licensed.
I may not agree with the requirement for being licensed, but that is how it currently stands, which makes him a liar.
Pretty simlpe really.
If he is going to challenge Obama, there are plenty more ways to do it than flat out lying about yourself just so you can challenge him.
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Re: Re: Re: Joe the
He's not a "licensed" plumber, but that doesn't mean he doesn't plumb for a living [read: plumber].
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
In this case the legal definition of "plumber" is pretty clear. And if he were going around calling himself a medical doctor or attorney without being duly licensed as such that would also be a lie. Can you not tell the difference between the truth an a lie or do you just not care?
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Re: Joe the
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Re: Re: Joe the
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Re: Re: Re: Joe the
People like you are very anxious to discredit even a related hypothetical discussion stemming from this mini-media circus. It's OK for your candidate to be scrutinized. That's how the game works.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
There is nothing hypothetical about this.
Since the poor fella is not licensed to run his own plumbing business McCain is incorrect and Joe will end up getting a tax cut 3 or 4 times larger than if McCain is elected.
And you aren't scrutinizing Obama. You are disagreeing with my opinion.
I back Obama because to me as naive as I am he symbolizes a change to a "me first" culture. And you can make your arguments about my opinion all you want. But I have yet to hear anything truthful from McCain that makes me think he is even a remotely pleasant person to be in the vicinity of. Crashing 5 planes doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a fucking fuckup. Graduating as close to the bottom of his class at the academy supports this view. There is nothing about the man that shows me that he will take this country in a better direction.
He keeps talking about fixing the image of USA.
And then he picks Gov. Palin as a running mate. This shows a complete loss of sense of reality to me.
If he honestly has Americas best in mind he would not be running. McCain will guaranteed by me be a continuation of the last 8 years. He has said nothing to disprove this other than "I am not Bush". He states nothing concrete that separates his views from the current administrations agenda.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
Grow up.
There are international polls showing a huge favor for Obama.
And the simple fact that you can even ask "How is picking Palin as VP any worse" means that it is overdue you open a newspaper and see some of the extremist tirades she spews forth.
Look into why she argued against research of fruit flies as an example. But she is excused, she is after all a creationist, and since nothing every changes what is the point of any research? Oh, and the sun circles the earth, not the other way around as is popular belief.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
Oh, and I am a creationist as well, so your rant about fruit flies means nothing to me.
So international polls favoring Obama is a good thing? Ever think that their motives for favoring Obama are less than pure? Maybe they think they can push him around?
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Re: Joe the
I really wish you would have told me from the beginning.
Had I known I wouldn't have wasted my time on you.
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Re: Re: Joe the
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Re: Re: Re: Joe the
"It is funny how anti-religous bigots feel like they are the enlightened ones yet cannot hold a reasonable discussion with anyone who disagrees with them. If you are so enlightened, why can't you discuss your views rationally?"
No one can have a rational discussion with you Because you have DECIDED to divorce yourself from rationality.
Your decision that legitimize scientific proof, scrutinized by many other scientists and researchers and backed up by scientific evidence could not possibly be right because YOU cannot understand the difference between word for word fact and an allegory marks you as being unable to actually have a rational discussion.
Yes I believe that god created the universe, however I am not ignorant enough to think that a story told to explain how, to people with no scientific knowledge whatsoever would be literal truth.
When we (humans) were as little children, the explanations were simple, as we grow as a race God expects us to learn
the secrets of his creation, so that we may be amazed and revel in the glory of his handiwork and intricate plan. God does NOT expect us to remain forever ignorant as you have chosen to be. Our learning and understanding Gods creation, is the way for us to glorify God.
So all I can say is, it's been 2008 years since he saved you, grow up.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
Of course any God that can create all of this in a week could spend millions of years doing it through evolution. But seriously, what scientific proof is there for evolution? The missing link has never been found for any species. Some of the early "humans" found have now been proven to be apes rather than people.
Why is it that when Christian scientists present evidence against evolution it is suppressed and even met with threats and violence? What are "legitimate" scientists afraid of? If they are right, then why can't they debate the issue?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
As far as proof of evolution, there is so much of it that your refusal to accept it proves your lack of rationality, you may as well be insisting that the world is flat.
Also, you are not a "Christian scientist" You are fundamentalist, a biblical literalist. You have no clue what scientific process consists of, part of your argument is that you don't need to as you have faith instead.
You are also the only one bring up violence.
And by the way, saying "No it's not" is not and never will be debate, it is simply blind argument.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
Well, if it isn't then how come The Bible says it has four corners?
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Re: Re: Re: Joe the
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe the
Think for yourself, Be Responsible, Be Free -Libertarian...
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Re: Re: Joe the
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Re: Joe the
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Re: Re: Joe the
All I hear from McCain is "Yadayadayada tax increase for everyone" when this is dead wrong. So please present us with an argument that works.
If something is good for 95% of the population then suck it up and do it.
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Re: Re: Joe the
Where did you get that from?
My simple point is that his state requires him to be licensed, and he is not.
He would know that if he actually cared about being a plumber.
Therefore, he is a liar, and not a plumber.
I do however, disagree with the requirement to be licensed. The market would pretty quickly weed out the fakes without such a requirement, as well as they wouldn't be charging extortionist fees anymore.
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Re: Joe the
My point? Okay, I don't have one other than to ask you, what is your point, you twit?
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Re: Re: Joe the
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Re: Re: Joe the
You are not claiming to be ASC certified, are you?
Clearly you are not.
It just so happens that in his state, it requires a license to be a plumber, so no, that makes him not a real plumber there.
Thank you for taking an abstract view though.
Also, note that Techdirt has done posts in the past about why setups like that where it is required to be certified are not the best idea.
If his state requires it, and he is not, then that makes him a fake when he claims to be. That was my point.
Had I realized you were missing so many of the facts I would have explained more. I will do better in the future.
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Re: Re: Joe the
Doesn't make him a plumber.
If he lost his NHRA license, then I'd say he was no longer an NHRA driver. Absolutely.
The law doesn't require that to call yourself a mechanic. But, if it did and you weren't licensed then I'd sy you weren't a real mechanic. Just like if you had no medical license but went around calling yourself a medical doctor anyway I'd say you weren't a real doctor.
Ahh, name calling too. Figures.
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At the least one was a legitimate search.
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Re: At the least one was a legitimate search.
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Re: Re: At the least one was a legitimate search.
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Re: Re: At the least one was a legitimate search.
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It's why such good ideas like RFID tracking, Electronic Voting, Cameras Everywhere, etc make such very good sense, it would allow these people to further abuse the system. The party zealous sheep will do anything for their party.
How many times you think a security guard sitting on a camera pans in on your wife or daughter's chest or tail?
How often do you think ex-wives/husbands that work for Government keep tabs on the ex? Or how often that nutty stalker looks up current info on your aunt's driver's license at the BMV or where ever?
Some of these political zealots are even worse, they'd kill their own mother if they thought it would get their candidate elected.
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Why is it relevant that they have endorsed McCain?
And no it does not bother me that a paper/news organization supports a candidate. I see it as just an extension of their editorial department. I don't need the Dispatch's endorsement to ascertain their leaning. Nor do I give a dam that they endorsed XYZ. I'll makeup my own mind thank you very much.
Palmyra or Joe the retired Economist
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Re: Why is it relevant that they have endorsed McCain?
It shouldn't be. Shouldn't be at all.
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Re:
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re:
And no, bias at all is not ok. Unfortunately we have accepted it though.
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Re:
Yeah because they're not bias at all. I'd much rather have them come out and say it than report a lot of slanted news like your CNN buddies led by dumbass Jack Cafferty.
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Who the fuck is Joe the Plumber?
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Re:
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Re:
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re:
Democrats are just up front about the cost.
They after all have to fix the gaping hole that is the economy left behind by the Republicans.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
I won't argue that the Republicans seriously screwed up the economy. But the Democrats have screwed it up pretty badly too. Remember, it was under Clinton that Freddie and Fannie were basically mandated to start giving out loans to people who couldn't repay them.
Also, keep in mind that Pelosi & co. have had 2 years to do something about this. So what, exactly, have THEY accomplished?
The biggest problem I have with the Republicans is that, for some reason, they don't even TRY anymore to articulate truly conservative economic policies - all they are anymore is Democrat Lite.
So, yes, the REPUBLICANS won't help things at this point, because they're almost the same as the Democrats anymore. We might actually see something change if a real fiscal conservative got into office - but that's not going to happen until after Obama totally tanks the economy over the next 4 years.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
They are all to blame.
They all want our money...they just spend it differently.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Also, keep in mind that Pelosi & co. have had 2 years to do something about this. So what, exactly, have THEY accomplished?
******************************88
So while Pelosi & Co. should have fixed the problem in 2 years, you'll totally let off the republikans for not fixing the Freddie and Fannie problem in six years?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
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How could that happen?
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Re:
That is how reality works, and if you don't like it you can go find a democracy you like better.
Quit your whining and do what the world demands from you.
Crying over a license? Grow up.
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Re: Re:
Last time...
Think Free, Be Resposible, BE FREE - Libertarian.
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Re:
So if you self-medicate then you must qualify as a medical doctor. Go ahead, put that M.D. after your name and start writing scripts for controlled substances. See you in prison.
Are all McCain supporters that stupid?
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-Joseph Goebbels
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Re:
-George W. Bush
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transparency in government
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Joe the Plummer
That should solve many of these issues.
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Power to the People
Obama - Lawyer / lifetime campaigner
Biden - Lawyer / lifetime politician
McCain - Military Brat / lifetime politician
Palin - regular person tired of the bullsheep, got off her ass and did something about it.
Joe the Plumber - ditto
Even if you don't agree with Joe and Sarah, they should be praised for their courage! A lot more than I can say about most of us....
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Re: Power to the People
How did Obama/McCain improve the lot of those
in his district while he was senator? What
legislation did they support, not support or
actively work against?
When Obama was given an executive seat on the Annenberg
Chicago Challenge (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Annenberg_Challenge)
Did he obtain any of the objectives with the considerable
sum that he administered?
As for McCain... I'll note that he sponsered bills like
Kennedy-McCain, McCain-Feingold and his failure to support
Bush's tax cut.
I can't get too excited about either candidate. Although
Obama is the more photogenic of the two.
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Biden - Lawyer / lifetime politician
McCain - Military Brat / lifetime politician
Palin - regular person tired of the bullsheep, got off her ass and did something about it.
Joe the Plumber - ditto
******************
How about:
Palin - Tired of floating through life (four universities?) decide to get some of what other AK politicians were getting. Before she has even been elected we know that she hired all her friends while in office, tried to fire Bro-in-law, billed AK for staying in her own home, raised taxes in Walsila. Tells so many lies that she can't even name what newspapers she reads without lying. (Another Dumbo?)
Obama - Raise in broken home, puts self through college, graduates top of his class, gives up high paying career to help others. (that sure sounds evil to me)
Make your own decision, but I think we know what electing another Dumbo would do to the country.
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Re:
Just an ammendment, from the actual facts and records
"puts self through college," - in correct, his sheik buddy paid for his scholarship to college.
"gives up high paying career to help others" - what career he has always been a politican and party hax....
Sorry Junior, Case Closed.
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Political Discussion
It should come as no surprise that government databases are abused. You see this much more in government than in the corporate world, because corporations have to follow the law and not upset customers or risk ruin, governments don't really have that worry. The point is, that personal information that can be abused, will be abused.
For the record, I just made the final decision today that I'm voting for McCain. I've been leaning that way for a while. I'm just a little right of center in my political views. I made my decision based on the candidates as they were on Jan 1 2008, disregarding all of the campaign garbage. I think more folks should think about that, as in, before the candidate started running for president, what was he or she up to? Anyway, I think that Mr. Obama could use some more experience and move a little more to the political center. It took so long because I was waiting for one of them to really screw up!
Joseph M. Durnal
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It's how it's supposed to work
The information that was "dug up" on Joe "the Plumber" was public information available to anyone who asks. Here's how it works:
#1: The Plumber's License (or Lack Thereof): You go to a municipal or state office and you ask if so-and-so is a licensed plumber. The person in the licensing body looks it up on a "government computer" and gives you the answer. Naturally, it will show up on a log. This is the way people find out if the guy that showed up on your doorstep with an unmarked van and box of wrenches is actually a plumber or not.
#2: Joe "the Plumber"'s Tax Liens: All federal income tax liens are recorded with the Clerk of the Circuit Court's office. That's how ambulance chasing lawyers find out who to send the unsolicited mail to people with tax liens offering their services. Anybody who's had a tax lien can tell you all about the tons of unsolicited mail that comes to you with these offers. At the Clerk of the Circuit Court's offices here in Chicago, for example, you don't even have to ask for help. There are "government" computers lined up for the public to use to look up recent tax liens. It's all perfectly legal. Reporters do it ever day to find out what cases have been filed recently, looking for news. Naturally, there are logs kept.
It's amazing that there is an outcry because people looked up Joe "The Plumber" on publicly open records, but practically nothing about NSA agents listening in on personal phone calls of Americans working overseas, including calls of a very personal nature, and then joking about it. Listening in on military personnel, reporters, aid workers, peace activists, contractors, and others.
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Re: It's how it's supposed to work
Actually, I believe you're confusing two separate things. No one is complaining about the 2 items you described above -- both of which were publicly available. The complaints are that gov't employees looked into *non-public* databases. It's not clear what info they found, if any, or what they did with it -- but the issue is the looking into non-public databases.
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Its nice to accept
It's nice to accept whatever the news is telling us.
Visit: freddiesjoint.com
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