Group Wants A National Ban On Yakking While Driving
from the no,-there's-nothing-else-going-on dept
As the nation gears up for the inauguration of a new President and Congress and state and local governments laying out their legislative priorities for the coming year, one group says that in addition to pressing issues like the economy, legislators should take up a nationwide ban on cell phone use while driving. They've trotted out the usual rhetoric, equating yakking while driving to drunk driving in an attempt to evoke an emotional response, but ignoring some salient facts. First, while it's hard to argue that driving while talking is completely safe, it may not be as big a risk as some of these groups would lead us to believe. Second, the laws are very hard to enforce and don't automatically decrease the number of accidents. Instead of adding another law narrowly focused on one particular behavior, why not more stringently enforce existing traffic laws dealing with dangerous driving? Laws already exist covering all manner of unsafe driving; perhaps a good way to make the roads safer would be to increase enforcement of them and work to clamp down on all types of unsafe driving, rather than single out particular ones.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: driving while yakking, laws, regulations
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New Laws...
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Re: New Laws...
I think that's only part of the story. I'm sure there are people out there who actually think that talking on the cell phone is a new or unique problem. But to give the benefit of the doubt, I think there are probably many people on the side of this legistlation who take a much more pragmatic approach.
For example, say you became concerned about the issue of people talking on their cell phones while driving and after thinking about the issue for, oh about a minute and a half, you realized that the problem was more about inattentive or bad drivers than the specific issue of cell phones. What are you to do? However much the idea of better enforcement seems to be the simplest, best approach, how to you force better enforcement? You can't exactly pass a law that says "hey, cops, why don't you actually do your job for a change?"
But what you can do is pass a law that will increase enforcement of the problem that is on many people's minds. I'm not defending this approach. It results in bad laws that are way too targeted at specific acts instead of really dealing with the underlying problem. But I can see where someone, even a reasonable someone who has considered the issue, would think that supporting this kind of legistaltion was a viable approach.
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Re: Re: New Laws...
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Re: Re: Re: New Laws...
Anyway, what I was trying to say:
"You can't exactly pass a law that says "hey, cops, why don't you actually do your job for a change?""
You can't blame cops for not pulling people over for unsafe driving because someone was using a cell phone.
The simple act of using/doing something is not enough to call anything "unsafe". The person using/doing something while driving must actually show signs of being "unsafe" at that time...you know, like swerving, cutting across multiple lanes, driving on the shoulder, etc.
If you want to ticket people for being "unsafe" while doing something specific, you have to have a specific law for that thing.
A judge will require the police to have a reason explaining why it was unsafe or the case will be dismissed.
Basically, they need just cause to pull you over for any general "unsafe driving" type of ticket. Which is why everyone wants to put these specific items into their own laws.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: New Laws...
I didn't say that I wanted to ticket people for being unsafe while doing something specific.
Basically, they need just cause to pull you over for any general "unsafe driving" type of ticket. Which is why everyone wants to put these specific items into their own laws.
I'm sorry, but this sentence doesn't make any sense to me. Are you sure your cat didn't type it? ;-) But seriously, the very act of unsafe driving is the just cause. If someone is swerving on the road, driving 15 miles an hour in a 40 MPH zone, or changing lanes without signaling, that is the just cause. While talking on the cell phone while driving leads to all three of these offenses, the cop doesn't need to know why you were doing them, just that you were.
Yes, I can see why people would want to add the specific reasons for unsafe driving as a means to "force enforcement". But not because it's legally required, but instead it's probably the only means they see to the end.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Laws...
I don't know if a cell phone ban should be enacted, it depends on the data. Would it work? Are cell phones really dangerous (seems to me they are)? How much? Would just the ban be effective, or would additional enforcement resources be necessary? Depending on the answers to those questions (which I don't know), it could make perfect sense to ban talking on cell phones while driving.
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Then by extention...
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What next?
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Re: What next?
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I'm amazed...
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I read about this yesterday
We have a law that covers this crap. It's called reckless driving. If the cops around here would actually enforce that one we wouldn't need a damn anti-cellphone bill (or speed traps to get extra money).
I have honestly never had a near miss from someone on their cellphone. They just like to drive slow in front of me. Every near miss I have had has been by a solo driver (no one else in the car) not on a cell. People in Pennsylvania just can't drive.
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Re: I read about this yesterday
"When two planes almost collide, they call it a near miss. It's a near hit. A collision is a near miss."
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Re: Re: I read about this yesterday
/pedantry
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Re: I read about this yesterday
They need to make a law that all cars will drive themselves without the need for us imperfect humans... that would fix everything...
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Re: I read about this yesterday
Yet, as soon as they do, people cry out that their ticket was undeserved and traffic laws are just revenue generators. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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I honestly wouldn't care if they banned driving and talking everywhere unless you use a bluetooth or headset. I like the law in DC
I think another part of the problem is there aren't enough officers in general, and the ones they do have arent working traffic violations, they are working murders and thefts, which is reasonable.
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Re:
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anyone who can't operate a vehicle safety while talking on a cell phone should not be allowed to drive, as there driving skills are obviously WAY UNDER PAR!!
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oh wait we also need to ban CD, tape, and 8-track players from the driver too.
then, so the driver doesn't get bored and inattentive lets jab needles into random areas of his butt and back ad random intervals so that are always fully alert.
then we also need to develop special windows that only allow other cars, roadsigns, pedestrians, animals, and the road be seen so that they are distracted by any scenery they might normally see out the window.
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I don't care how they do it.
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Re: I don't care how they do it.
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Re: I don't care how they do it.
It was something along the lines of...........
Someone who holds a belief even though they have no logical reason to do so...............
Now what was it called?
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Re: I don't care how they do it.
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It is another just doing something look..
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Re: It is another just doing something look..
@virgingwool I'm one of those idiots with a manual car so both of my hands are usually not on the wheel.
My brother has (knock on wood) had 2 emergency landings as a pilot and he had to talk to the tower on a hand free set.
But he is trained to do that BK?
Exactly teach us how to drive, most people havent' had their driving skills tested to 20 years. Sad.
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I think a ban is a good idea
When a moron talking on the phone crashes into me, they are infrigning on my right to safe passage.
When a moron who doesn't wear a seat belt crashes and they fly 1,000 feet through their windshield, well that's just their problem.
I live in the Dallas/Ft. Worth, Texas area, and it seems at least 75% of the people are on their cell phones. I catch more and more texting while driving. I cannot tell you how many times I had a "near miss" (ha, ha prior comment) because of some idiot on their phone.
People need to realize that driving is by a large statistical margin the most dangerous thing that nearly all of us do in our lives. When you are behind the wheel of a vehicle weighing several thousand pounds and travelling at high rates of speed, GET OFF THE ******* PHONE.
Bottom line is you are not that important and neither is your stupid phone call... so pay attention to the extremely dangerous thing you're doing!
I think we should take it a step farther for truck drivers -- you get caught on the phone driving a heavy truck and you lose your license for at least 1-3 years. You are driving an 80,000 pound vehicle that is unstable, cannot make sudden adjustments to direction/speed, and has many blind spots. GET OFF THE PHONE.
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Re: I think a ban is a good idea
I've had none, I've avoided quite a few?
What ever happened to personnel responsibility????
I know there are many people who can't drive with one hand just as there are many people who can't ride a bike with one hand.
How about people take responsibility for there actions and abilities and we stop legislating the lowest common denominator.
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Re: I think a ban is a good idea
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Re: I think a ban is a good idea
I talk on the phone all the time while I'm driving, but I have the wherewithal to hang up if there is a traffic or if conditions are bad.
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Re: I think a ban is a good idea
Actually that's not (necessarily) true. If they're 1000 feet away from their car, they'll have a hard time keeping their hands on the wheel. Whereas if they're belted in, they may have a chance to maintain some control over the car after the primary impact and avoid more trouble (your car for example) afterward. Probably this is a minority case, but it does happen.
Everyone else in the car should be belted for the same reason: it's harder to drive when your passengers are colliding with you.
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Re: I think a ban is a good idea
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Re: I think a ban is a good idea
I love bans on things. Why stop at forcing people to wear seat belts becuase it "MIGHT" save their life. Let us ban Smoking, Using a Cell Phone which includes using anything else in the car would could be construed as a cell phone. Let us ban kids running around on Bicycles because someone driving a car might hit them. Let us ban talking bad about Politicians because that is slander upon a politician. Lets ban driving over 55 cause it will save gas.
Nope. Banning stuff is about as useful as giving people 800 billion who can't manage their money any better than their checkbook. The Brilliance just astounds me. A Better give-a-way would have been to give 1 Million to all the tax paying citizens, 137 billion vs 800 billion. Banks would benefited faster, Economy would have got a kick in the pants, loans would have been paid off, and the Rich would have made out just as much as if they had been paid 9 trillion.
Back to banning Cell Phone use, Ban CBs, Children's Band Radios first, they've been around longer, are far more dangerous, and make about as much sense as putting pads on a Child to ride a bike after banning bicycles use cause drivers might run over Children riding bicycles.
Sorry, I could go on for hours about how Intelligent our Honorable Representatives are in the Different Congresses. Obviously, products of a public education system their previous Honorable Representatives created.
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Re: Re: I think a ban is a good idea
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Re: I think a ban is a good idea
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Re: Re: I think a ban is a good idea
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Re: banning yanking
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Do we ban people with only one hand from driving? They obviously represent more of a risk than someone with two hands. Might as well lump anyone over 50 in there too since their reaction times slower than someone who is 30.
No one should be punished for not doing anything dangerous while driving. Are you a pre-cog? Can you see the future?
Talking on the phone may be hard for some drivers. Guess what, some people can handle driving on a 5 lane highway, some people can't. Are we banning 5 lane highways because you don't feel comfortable with driving on one?
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I would much much much prefer...
Tailgating is a nationwide epidemic. Defensive driving doesn't even fix the problem because if you ease up on the vehicle in front of you, that's just an open invitation to somebody else to get in there. It would be fun to once in a while see that law enforced. Oh but who am I kidding, everyone does it so it must be okay and safe.
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Like many laws, there are those that flout it, cruising in their flashy company cars with the work phone glued to their ear, ask yourself - is it really necessary?
How many times can you see the *need* to use the phone while driving? The only real one I can think of is getting directions to a location from someone (or similar variations), that chat with your wife on the way home? Letting someone know you'll be there in 5 mins (when it really makes no difference)? Are these really valid reasons?
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No decrease in accidents...
I myself would like to see something that allowed huge fines to be given to anyone caught texting while driving. Yes, I know some people can type on their phones without taking their eyes off the road, but you'll have a difficult time convincing me they're not doing so to read the response. And I have seen a scary number of people with both thumbs at work around their steering wheel.
In short (too late), I'm in favor of any law that will increase the price of stupidity, particularly when it endangers the rest of us. For that matter, I'm in favor of sterilization and imprisonment of the dangerously stupid for the good of society, but I won't hold my breath on that one.
The study that concluded no link between phone usage and crash rates is a joke (the "as big" link). Any controlled study [that I've seen] on the ability of a driver to adequately respond to situations on the road while on and off the phone shows a significant difference. And any statistical analysis relating overall phone usage and crash rates, fatal or otherwise, [usually] ignores too many other factors to be of any use (as Mike points out in the other post, at least as relates to that particular study).
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It is illegal here (WA)
I think a better solution is to make the act of talking on a phone while driving a multiplier to the penalty for the reckless driving that you should be pulled over for.
If you are able to drive safely while on the phone, so be it. However, if you are not driving safely and are talking on the phone then triple the fine. We have similar penalty multipliers for speeding in a school one or construction zone.
The problem is the burden of proof. It adds a level of "deniability" for the offender. Conduits need to be established for record checking in a timely manner in the case of a challenge to the charge.
Unfortunately laws of this nature, "for public safety" have to be written to the lowest common denominator, which is getting lower all the time.
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Re: It is illegal here (WA)
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Trying Hard
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Re: Trying Hard
I personally can't drive on a 6 lane highway. I don't ask for a ban of 6 lanes, I just don't go into DC anymore.
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Re: Trying Hard
Though I agree with most of what you said, the problem is that there is not a direct correlation between cell phone use while driving and accidents. There IS a direct correlation between not paying attention to your surroundings while driving and accidents. So why punish those who are able to use a cell phone and still pay attention while driving?
To be honest, I don't have a solution here. I agree that one's rights end where another's begin, but suggesting that everyone is equal in this is simply untrue. And that's before even considering that there are countless other distractions available to drivers.
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Then what?
The current law is fine, if you're reckless you get a ticket. I use the phone a lot while driving and have never had an issue with it being a problem.
It honestly comes down to the person driving. Some people are more comfortable doing things while driving than others. Same goes for racing or any other auto sport. Some people can do it, and others can't.
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Evidence?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wi ki/Mobile_phones_and_driving_safety
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Re: Evidence?
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Re: Re: Evidence?
I finally came to my turn, which had a red light. Good news for people at the light: there was no traffic in sight. However, after I came to a complete stop at the red light and before turning, I looked to my left at the driver of the slow car. She was yakking on a cell phone intently. I only wish a police car had been around. Driving 10 mph or more below the speed limit is illegal in my state.
Unfortunately, I see this same thing virtually every day. People yakking on the cell phone do not signal lane changes or turns. They wander around their lane. The drive too fast or too slow. They run red lights or forget to go when the light turns green. Yes, these people are no more dangerous than those shaving in rush hour or putting on make-up, but it is more pervasive than those activities.
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Re: Re: Re: Evidence?
I saw the same kind of thing. A car in front of me driving 25 in a 35. It then ran the red light and almost caused a wreck. Turns out the person driving was just old. She wasn't talking on the phone and both her hands were on the wheel. I also wish there was a cop around for that.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Evidence?
the more I think about it, the more I am fine with making driving drunk legal. if you were driving wrecklessly (for any reason) and the officer doesn't believe you'll be able to drive safely once he has pulled you over and fined you (say because you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol) then he makes a judgment call to take to you the station or home or whatever.
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Re: Re: Re: Evidence?
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So, you've missed a point of what the legislation will do. Right now, it's still socially acceptable to talk on a cell phone while driving. The studies and the fear of law have not yet made their way into public consciousness.
We need not enact a law against juggling baby geese while driving because nobody seems tempted to do it. Drive/yak, however, is highly prevalent. It makes sense to legislate against major modes of danger, if you're into that whole prevention thing.
Following your own argument, we should simply ignore drunk driving -- it's just another form of reckless driving, after all. So, if you want to be consistent about your position, you should agitate for the removal of drunk driving laws.
Personally, I would remove said laws, then, if you were in any accident and had been found to be drinking or talking on a cell phone (check cell logs), then you automatically assume responsibility for the accident and gets various reckless endangerment charges added.
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Re:
With a cell phone your mind is not altered, you are of sound mind and if you get into a wreck because you can't drive and talk than it is your fault. Same with walking and chewing gum.
I kinda half agree with you, though, on taking that law away. There isn't any direct law about driving under prescription drugs. The same affect can happen. The same affect can happen with NyQuil but there is no law forbidding it.
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stupid
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Ah well, guess I'll just have to move on to doing other things while driving. Maybe I'll try playing violent video games or downloading music for free while driving...
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Ban Driving
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Nothing wrong with singling out cellphones...
For many years a driver of a car has not been allowed to view a TV while driving, so yes you can single out a specific device in law.
And before you point out that phones are more prolific, I ask you this, at what number would prolific over ride safety? If every car had a TV, would it then be legal to watch TV while driving?
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Data not being tracked
We had few cases I know of in GA were people got hit and killed because someone was on a cell phone and the reason no one was really prosecuted fully was because there was no LAW saying that you can't use you cell phone and drive. So it was just unintentional that they hit someone. It's a completely different case if their was a LAW saying you can not use a cell phone and drive..
and to go back, not all this data is being tracked by the front line of defense ( our officers ).
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Yakking while driving
2. Massive enforcement of difficult-to-enforce laws equals massive costs. IFF (if and only if) the people proposing a ban on talking on a mobile while driving that indicate that the costs of ensuring more safety on the road can be somewhat reduced, why not give it a shot?
3. But Michael is right to the extent that merely blindly passing "agin" laws, with no data to support them (which, unfortunately, happens all too often) is wrong!
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In-car phone use will NEVER rise to be on the cop's RADAR! $$$
In-car phone use will NEVER rise to be on the cop's RADAR! $$$
On the one hand, I remember the first advertisements for car radios, which were intended to use the car battery, but only while the car was stationary, so, for instance, you could listen to the ball game while having a picnic beside your parked car.
Now we think of radios as normal in cars, even safety enhancements, especially with news and traffic reports helping us avoid traffic jams.
Car phones were fist touted as safe because you could call in accidents and call for help. At first, there were scant few car phones, so people weren't generally chatting on them all the freakin' time!
Then global positioning, where at first people actually got where they were going without stopping in the lane wondering if they should turn off or not, but now people turn right into a culvert or river without looking because their GPS told them to!
Anyway, I pass in frustration and then look back in wonder at every driver wandering the road as if in a world unto themselves, and invariably they are on the phone, completely unaware of their presence in the way of the flow of traffic, one of them even cutting off an ambulance yesterday.
Here's my logic. When driving, you can pay attention to only one of three things at a time, at the expense of the others:
1 - what's going on outside the car, in the car's environment -- traffic -- this is pretty much the safest and most aware way to drive.
2 - what's going on inside the car, the car's interior -- the speedometer, the screaming kids, a bumble bee -- this is starting to get dangerous, but on occasion it supports our safe participation in zone 1 above, especially if we check our speed when we see a speed limit sign now and then. However, since day one with cars, too much time ignoring zone 1 in preference for zone 2 has always killed -- fumbling for a cigarette, spilled coffee, unfolding a map while cruising, and so on.
3 - what's going on elsewhere -- in our head, over the radio, over the phone -- this is where we become an impediment to the flow of traffic
Explore this as you drive and see if you can find a pattern of safety. I think safety goes down and risk goes up as we pay attention down the list, that is, we're less safe when we pay attention to our car's interior, such as watching the speedometer, and even less safe when we pay attention to a universe totally disconnected from the flow of traffic, such as chatting with someone back home or back at the office.
We supposedly have hand-free laws, but, like seatbelt laws, they don't show up on a radar gun in the cop's hand as they hide by the roadside, so it's highly unlikely the police will ever participate in enforcing this as a safety issue.
Our challenge is to find a way to enforce safety, not just make more laws. People are addicted to their phones and their phone relationships with people not sharing their immediate space. Fine. What can we do about it -- other than blast the horn or get a PA public address system and scream at them as we pass?
I', serious! What can we do that will be effective?
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Private versus public:
Ahhh, I know what the problem is:
Private versus public.
When we're chatting on the phone, we're having a private experience, separate from the public experience around us.
This is especially dangerous when the public venue in which we are having a private experience is the high speed, highly dangerous highway, full of traffic, full of other people.
That is why I walk to another room when I'm on the phone at home. There's no way I can reconcile the private chat with the "public" in the rest of my house -- perhaps speaker phone?
But at least my home is not rolling along the crowded highway supposedly under my concerted control with supposedly undivided attention.
It's ridiculous to hear someone in the room at home who only hears my side of the conversation and tries to control the, to them, invisible dialog. And then the person on the other end gets confused, "Are you talking to me?"
Hilarious.
Ludicrous.
On the highway, dangerous.
But, as mentioned, there's no real avenue of enforcement.
The police only act on radar because it's easy, profitable, and well documented for court -- an all around"no brainer".
It's unreasonable to ask the "no brainer" police to actually asses safe driving, or conversely, unsafe driving, let alone ask them to document and present a bona fide prima facia case in court based on such an observation, let alone make additional revenues for their community with such arrests.
Air horns and screaming public address systems blaring from passing cars at the poky people chatting on their cell phones seems the only way.
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Makes perfect sense to me.
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It is obviously impossible for someone to say 'I am trying to negotiate a particularly tricky road in heavy traffic at the moment I really can't concentrate and talk at the same time'. So therefore it must be safer when you have 20 miles of empty road in a straight line ahead of you on a quiet night to just space out in silence staring ahead of you in a trance. I am so glad that we have such clever people doing absurdly unrealistic studies, no doubt at the expense of the taxpayer just so that they don't have to do something useful for a living.
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