ASCAP Continues Its Attack On Lessig; Free Culture
from the but-why? dept
We were already quite surprised when ASCAP set up a private lunch to come up with ways to "counter" the viewpoints of folks like Larry Lessig and various "free culture" supporters. After all, songwriters who have been embracing those concepts are making more money because of it. The problem, of course, is that those means often don't send that money through ASCAP. Still, as an organization that claims it represents the interests of songwriters, you would think they'd be thrilled to have songwriters make more money. Instead, it appears they would like to have songwriters make less money, and to attack Larry Lessig in the process.Their latest move was to send out an email to members with links to various articles and commentaries that try to undermine Lessig's ideas. It's basically ASCAP propaganda. I guess they're afraid that songwriters might discover that they don't actually have to be beholden to ASCAP to make money.
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Filed Under: copyright, culture, larry lessig, remix
Companies: ascap
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No surprise
This is the problem I have with the EFF. They constantly try to make 'deals' with the dying industries, instead of educating people about the facts of the new realities. The Pirate Bay, Party, etc., has done more in a few short years than the EFF has managed in its entire lifetime.
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hate to say...
I TOLD YOU SO, and not that long ago either.
Cue the Industry Apoligitards(tm) who will now, yet again, deny they do the very things they are always caught doing.
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With so many suggesting that copyright laws run counter to freedom of expression protected by the First Amendment, it does seem a bit incongrous to decry those who in exercizing their freedom of expression happen to make statements the former do not like. To me this almost like "Do as I say and not as I do."
Mr. Lessig and others who subscribe to his views do make many though provoking points, but the same can be said of those who present opposite views.
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Re:
If that were true, that would be great. But it's not. Rather than present any actual valuable information to "counterbalance," they are mocking the findings of those who have presented evidence that many musicians would be better off giving their music away for free.
This is not "the other side." These are people presenting ways for musicians to be better off without relying on ASCAP.
With so many suggesting that copyright laws run counter to freedom of expression protected by the First Amendment, it does seem a bit incongrous to decry those who in exercizing their freedom of expression happen to make statements the former do not like. To me this almost like "Do as I say and not as I do."
Oh please. This is not about decrying them for their freedom of expression. This is decrying them being totally disingenuous.
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Re: Re:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080529/2308011264.shtml
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Re: Re:
This is not "the other side." These are people presenting ways for musicians to be better off without relying on ASCAP.
You argue eloquently for business approaches based upon the distinction between infinite and scarce goods. Yours is an argument based upon economic theory.
In contrast, the "free culture" discussion is not one of economics, but of law. ASCAP advocates a coypyright regime of one scope, and those associated with "free culture" advocate a copyright regime of a different scope. The two groups are engaged in an ongoing discussion of what should be the scope of copyright law. Yes, business models may be different to some degree depending upon the scope of copyright law each side advocates, but the two sides are in agreement that copyright law does serve to promote progress in science.
It is important for your readers to understand the above
distinction. ASCAP and "Free Culture" are not challenging your economic theories. They are engaged in competing views of what each believes is the proper scope of copyright law. Importantly, both sides of the issue advocate positions that are contrary to your economic arguments because in either case they would still result in the existence what you term "monopoly".
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Re: Re: Re:
Odd. I don't see how you could possibly argue in either direction for a legal change without understanding the economic underpinnings of copyright. Otherwise how could you POSSIBLY claim that what you are doing is in the best interests of the artists.
My complaint with ASCAP stands. It is supposed to serve the interests of songwriters, and it is most clearly not doing so.
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Purveyor of Truth, Justice and Culture?
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Re: Purveyor of Truth, Justice and Culture?
Nobody. ASCAP is the acronym for the American Society of Composers, Artists and Publishers. Its sole purpose is to receive and distribute royalties to those of its members whose works are publicly performed. It is a non-profit that was created to centralize the royalty process, and it is reported that its overhead runs about 12.5% of receipts, with the remainder being distributed to its members.
There are two other major and similar organizations, BMI and SESAC.
There is no triple dipping by the organizations' members. They are signed with only one of the organizations and receive monies from just that one organization of which they are a member.
A more detailed description can be found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCAP
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Re: Re: Purveyor of Truth, Justice and Culture?
Hint: the answer is no
Suggestion: If ASCAP knows that they have no intention or capability of distributing royalties to those whose performance the royality was collected, then they should not collect the royalty. ASCAP wonders why some people look upon them as being not entirely honest. Go figure.
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Re: Re: Re: Purveyor of Truth, Justice and Culture?
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ASCAP Royalty payout
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How You Get Paid At ASCAP
http://www.ascap.com/about/payment/paymentintro.html
and don't forget to download the brochure on the payment system. (PDF) linked at the top of the page ...
Before attacking ASCAP without knowing what you are talking about ... why not visit their website and find out who they are and what they do. http://www.ascap.com/
Tonso
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How You Get Paid At ASCAP
They certainly have every right to track down the thousands upon thousands of commercial users of music world wide and make their own deals with them one user at a time. Then, of course, they can keep track of everyone they've licensed to be sure the pay correctly and on time ... and if the users don't - and won't - they have every right incur the cost of suing to collect the money due.
Most songwriters and music publishers think collective bargaining makes more sense for any number of reasons especially when they own the organization which is the case with ASCAP (but not BMI or SESAC) and every dime collected - after deductions for overhead (in ASCAP's case the lowest in the world) is paid to its member owners.
Bottom line... if you're a writer and feel compelled to spend every waking moment trying to collect what's due you ... when do you find time to write?
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Re: How You Get Paid At ASCAP
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Re: How You Get Paid At ASCAP
Thank you for the reference material, but perhaps you would like to address the issue that was raised.
Does ASCAP pay all those for whom royalties were assessed ?
Certainly this is a simple enough question to answer - right ?
Do you not see the problem with recieving funds under false pretense or do you deny that this occurs ?
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Why are royalties more complicated than say - Sales Tax?
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Re: How You Get Paid At ASCAP
If you mean by 'assessed' - captured in the variety of ways ASCAP surveys the use of music, the answer is 'yes'. If a work is detected has having been performed, the writers and publishers get credit for the performance.
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Re: Re: How You Get Paid At ASCAP
Why dodge the question?
Can you not provide an answer ?
Does ASCAP pay all those for whom they collect royalties ?
It is a simple question - no ?
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Why are royalties more complicated than say - Sales Tax?
Would everybody please stop mixing up songwriters issues with artists issues. Take the time to understand the difference before feeding back artist arguments in songwriter conversations. Other than the fact that artists sing songs artists and songwriters have totally unrelated concerns.
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How You Get Paid At ASCAP
No.
ASCAP pays everyone whose works are picked up in their surveys. There are, however, situations where writers get performances in venues that aren't surveyed. For those writers, ASCAP has a program (offered by no other PRO in the world) called ASCAPlus. Once a year writers can advise ASCAP of performances of their works in unsurveyed venues and are eligible for special cash awards for those performances. In essence, therefore, all writers who have had works publicly performed have the opportunity to be paid for those performances.
But, of course, you would have known that if you had have taken the time to review the information on the ASCAP site.
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Re: How You Get Paid At ASCAP
I thought I read somewhere that ASCAP was having difficulties locating certain bands that they had collected royalties for, and ASCAP just kept the money because it would be too hard to find the bands. Did this not happen?
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Re: Re: How You Get Paid At ASCAP
I thought I read somewhere that ASCAP was having difficulties locating certain bands that they had collected royalties for, and ASCAP just kept the money because it would be too hard to find the bands
I believe you are thinking of SoundExchange, not ASCAP.
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But the identical argument can also be leveled at "free culture" advocates, becaue even they support copyright law, albeit one they view as "kinder and gentler".
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Re:
But the identical argument can also be leveled at "free culture" advocates, becaue even they support copyright law, albeit one they view as "kinder and gentler".
I'm not sure how you can say that? Improving the copyright regime would improve things for artists, so I disagree with your assertion. At the same time, I've pointed out to you in the past (and for some reason you seem unwilling to understand this), I'm not in favor of abolishing copyright. I am in favor of looking at the system to see how it can be improved.
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Re: Re:
In all fairness, you have noted that one cannot turn a ship on a dime (my words), so that the immediate elimination of patents and copyrights could have untoward effects. Nonetheless, it seems to me quite clear that you are in favor of their eventual elimination. Your economic arguments admit to no other conclusion (unless, perhaps, I have missed something).
Perhaps it would help clarify things if you provided examples where a patent and a copyright would promote (economic) progress in the sciences and useful arts.
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I have stated quite clearly to you in the past (do you not remember) that I am all for someone providing an economic argument for how a patent or copyright system might help. I am willing to see one. To date, I have not.
That doesn't mean I don't think that the efforts of those who promote stronger fair use and weaker copyright laws won't improve the situation for creators.
Even you must understand that.
Perhaps it would help clarify things if you provided examples where a patent and a copyright would promote (economic) progress in the sciences and useful arts.
It is true that I have yet to see an example where this applies, but I am hoping to find one. I've been asking you, for example, to provide some in the past and you have repeatedly refused to do so -- instead jumping on some "moral" claim about how the "kids these days" have no respect.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
You have mixed a couple unrelated issues here. The moral/ethical claim re copyright infringement is not unique to me. Even Lessig shares the same view. There is no justification for gratuitous file sharing without authorization over P2P networks.
As for examples, some months ago I referenced a specific patent for what at the time was an important breakthrough in parallel processing technology. That technology was incorporated into company products for military applications, and was also the basis for a commercial startup that took the technology into new markets that would never have been served by the company. One such market was plasma displays for HDTV. In fact, the importance of the technology was recognized last year when it was awarded an Emmy. Unfortunately, the company that had integrated it into its high-end TVs was Pioneer. Hopefully, another manufacturer will integrate it into its products.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'm not sure how that's economic proof that a gov't granted monopoly is a good thing.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
WHAT! I don't believe that will ever happen. Now a perversion of the current structure I could see, but elimination of them totally no.
Now examples of how copyrights promote economic progress. In my opinion when an individual uses their copyright to their advantage via income from licensing I don't see how that is not "economic progress". Afterall, is the economy not based on individuals striving for their success? I believe it is.
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