Next, Microsoft Will Release An Even Worse Operating System To Jack Up The Prices On Vista...

from the not-sure-I-see-it dept

Tue, Feb 17th 2009 12:23pm — Mike Masnick

While it is rather amusing to see customers so interested in sticking with Windows XP rather than the supposedly more advanced Windows Vista that they're willing to pay a fee for the downgrade, it's tough to see much merit in the claim that such a charge is an antitrust violation. But, of course, that won't stop the lawyers from trying to convince a court that it most certainly is an abuse of a monopoly position. There's nothing monopolistic about charging more for a product that people want more. It certainly is ridiculous to claim that this is all a plan by Microsoft to squeeze extra money out of people by use of its monopoly position. Microsoft, by all accounts, would like nothing more than for folks to stop wanting to buy XP. The launch of Vista has been a massive disappointment for the company, not a part of a nefarious strategy to jack up the prices on XP.

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Filed Under: antitrust, class action, vista, xp
Companies: microsoft

94 Comments

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R. Miles, 17 Feb 2009 @ 12:40pm

Someone should forward this to Dell.
A few months ago, I purchased a new laptop. Since the software options didn't have an XP option, I called customer support and requested it.

I was told they no longer offer XP and the laptop was "specifically" designed for Vista (which is crap, given the 1525 model has been out for years).

I would have paid more for XP, given all the costs I had to endure buying upgraded software because 90% of what I owned didn't work on Vista.

It would have been worth it.

Thank you, Dell, for lying to your customers about its availability.

Oh, and I want to take this time to thank Microsoft for literally destroying the concept of "personal" PC and rendering all my software incompatible thanks to that bullshit security layer. Jerks.

I'm definitely on the side of folks who agree Vista sucks.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 12:48pm

It's not just the issue of XP working better than Vista, but as the first poster hinted at the matter is also one of interoperability. For example, my mother has an accounting business doing Quickbooks, and in Vista Quickbooks is basically broken, and you have to buy several add-ons with the Vista addition to have all the functionality that you do with the XP version of Quickbooks. And I know of several other programs that suffer the same problem. So it is actually cheaper to pay the premium for XP than it is to shell out all the extra cash needed to get Vista programs to work the way XP programs do.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:00pm

I like Vista. It challenges me intellectualy every time IE7 freezes and I am forced to troubleshoot. Fortunately, I have learned enough so I only have to do this about once a day.

As for its incompatibility with several of the programs I used with XP, buying Vista compliant software made me feel quite patriotic because I knew I was doing my bit to stimulate the economy in these tough economic times.

Seriously, I envy my daughter as she uses her HP Netbook with XP as the OS. It may not be as "pretty" as Vista, but at least it is stable and devoid of BSODs.
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Chronno S. Trigger, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:15pm

Vista douse suck
On my desk right now I have Vista, XP, and Win 7 all linked together threw Synergy. Outside of the older programs not fully working with the new version, I can't tell witch is better, 7 or XP. Vista is by far the worst. It crashes every day. I can't even open Outlook anymore. For the most part I just use it for Firefox and MSN Live (Pidgin crashes it as well).

I think that once Windows 7 gets out of beta, it will be a decent replacement for XP. For all I know that's what they're doing with Vista: make it suck so bad that the new version must be better.
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Jesse, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:30pm

What people want to is not to be asked to spend hundreds of dollars every few years for a product with almost no visible improvement when what they already have works perfectly fine.
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ehrichweiss, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:33pm

Vista does suck but Windows 7 will suck even worse..
Windows 7 is apparently going to be implementing some draconian DRM. For example, someone replaced a .DLL in a LEGIT copy of Photoshop that removes a registration nag. When they rebooted they could no longer use Photoshop, they couldn't delete or remove the .DLL, and it got worse than that. M$ also allows commercial software producers to stealthily add exceptions to the Wintendoze firewall so that they can get in and out of your system at THEIR whim. Nah, there's no way that someone is going to target those software publishers to hack so they can then have a back door into your system. The payoff from that would be in the billions.

Glad I use Linux and have no plans on switching.
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erica, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:33pm

Windows
Windows Vista just seems to me to be a step above windows ME but a step under 98 and many steps under XP. Though as a power user, I cannot say I have any crashes (pidgin, Outlook, FF, Opera, Chrome are all good) I still think Windows 7 is what Vista should have been.
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hegemon13, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:35pm

Wow, lot's of misunderstanding
Okay, the downgrade fee is from the OEM, NOT from Microsoft. The OEM sells a ton of systems with Vista, and only a few with XP. So, naturally, they charge more for the product that scales less. Any special ordered computer costs more, and this is no exception. Microsoft receives non of the downgrade fee. It all goes to the OEM, so to claim that it is an antitrust move by them is silly.

And on the note about a releasing a worse OS...I must hand it to MS. They seemed to have actually listened to their user base for once, because Windows 7 blows Vista AND XP out of the water.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:35pm

Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
Learn Linux
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:37pm

Re: Wow, lot's of misunderstanding
Learn Linux
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:39pm

Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
I was told they no longer offer XP and the laptop was "specifically" designed for Vista (which is crap, given the 1525 model has been out for years).

That's incorrect. Some of the BIOs settings/upgrades do not work with XP. It costs them quite a lot to make some of the hardware come for XP and some for Vista, so they pick one or the other and order x number of those systems. Currently I have an HP on my desk that will not install or run XP without a blue screen on boot. It's a matter of BIOS, but in order to get this Vista book working with XP I will have to put time and energy into various settings and flashes. This is fine for me, expensive for Dell.
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WarOtter (profile), 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:43pm

Re:
XP can be even prettier if you use WindowBlinds. Vista has nothing in it that Stardock hasn't already squeezed into xp via 3rd party apps.
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hegemon13, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:43pm

Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
Did you buy Vista Home, or Business? The downgrade rights only apply to Vista Business (and possibly Ultimate - not sure there, but you'd be dumb to pay for Ultimate and then downgrade). So, they were correct if you ordered Home.

Also, it is the OEM's decision whether or not they want to offer XP. Microsoft provides downgrade rights, but the OEM does not have to take them up on it.

Last, there were other options. You could have paid for an XP license instead of upgrading all your software. If you ordered Vista Business, you could have ordered a license-free XP disc to use with your downgrade rights. Last, you could have downloaded a Dell XP disc from a torrent. Since you legally own the license, the media is unimportant, and it would not have been illegal to use the downloaded disc, provided your version of Vista offered downgrade rights.
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hegemon13, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:49pm

Re: Vista does suck but Windows 7 will suck even worse..
First, Windows 7 is still in development, so the firewall backdoors you talk about may not be present in the final version. Second, I don't even buy that claim. No way are any IT administrators going to allow an OS where they don't have control of the security. MS knows this, and they are not that dumb.

Second, did you stop to think that maybe the hacked DLL was, er, BROKEN?? Or, that maybe, just maybe, Adobe provided their OWN DRM? Think this through. How the hell would MS know whether it had been altered? Upgrades from the manufacturer often require changes to DLLs. No way MS is going to keep a database large enough to encompass hash values for every version of every major piece of software.
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lavi d (profile), 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:51pm

The Past
I liked it better when you called them "Microsot"
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Joey Joe Joe Shabadoo, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:54pm

Microsot?
Did anyone see that they mispelled Microsoft in the title of the article? Anyhoo, from what I hear Vista isn't as useless as ME was but it's pretty bad. I'm still using XP and my next computer will be a Mac so I don't care if 7 will be better than XP and Vista or not. L8er MICROSOT!
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interval, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:58pm

Re:
The Microsoft tax. What more need be said? I threw a fit the first time I bought a notebook (since I build all my machines the only opportunity Microsoft has to screw me is with a notebook, which I can't build myself), and wasn't presented with the opportunity to decline Microsoft's EULA and get my money back on the extra $120 or so I spent to buy the machine. Speaking with the resellers (I think it was a Gateway) did no good as they hummed and hawed and didn't quite grasp what my demands were.

And M$ has the balls to deny they have a monopoly. What a crock!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 1:59pm

Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
You wrote, "I purchased a new laptop. Since the software options didn't have an XP option, I called customer support and requested it. I was told they no longer offer XP"

And then you wrote, "Thank you, Dell, for lying to your customers about its availability."

They lied to you?

The way I see it is that there are plenty of laptop manufactures out there, If you specifically wanted something, you should have purchased from a laptop manufacturer that sold exactly that. But then again, you do sound like a person who blindly pays several hundreds dollars without first researching what you are paying for. I have plenty of [swamp] land to sell you at a good price!
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interval, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:00pm

Re: Re:
DON'T. DON'T have a monopoly. Why is it every time I rant about the evil empire I screw my self over on the spelling???
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Old_Paranoid, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:03pm

XP re Vista
Microsoft gets paid regardless of which OS is installed, XP or Vista. I don't think the amount is so different. The hardware vendors don't like supporting multiple SKU's so they make their choices. The hardware vendors are the ones pushing more functionality, after all to run it you need bigger discs and faster processors. If you were happy with lighter weight systems, you would still be using your old system.

I have worked for Microsoft for 5 years. I run Vista on my 2 primary home systems because of the enhanced security and the fact that I can run my kids as normal (not administrative) users, and hence have some chance with parental controls. I keep an old Win 98 box which I upgraded to XP SP3 to let my kids use software that will not run on Vista - a lot of third party software makes inappropriate assumptions about the available system functionality of user applications and what they can write to (Apps do not need to write to Windows system folders and rarely need to write to HKLM registry).

As for stability, I find Vista to be more stable than XP. I am running Win 7 on my work systems and finding it to be very good.
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interval, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:04pm

Re: The Past
Yeah, that works for me to. Put me down for a Microsot.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:08pm

Based on the comments here and the demand for XP, maybe your headline of "even worse operating system" is wrong? At least in those folks opinion.
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Andrew Kerr, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:09pm

Microsoft is simply digging themselves a bigger hole.
If they would just release a new OS from scratch, instead of these patches, everything would be better.
FYI, Win Vista is based off Win Xp. Xp off of Millennium, ME off of 98, and 98 off of 95.

Microsoft last released an original OS back in 1995. That is freaking pathetic. Legacy programs are nice to be able to use, but it hurts in the long run.

I would prefer to have one OS for 5 years that works great. It is very difficult for software makers to be require to accomodate so many different types.
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fight_the_idiocy, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:14pm

Re: Vista does suck but Windows 7 will suck even worse..
Hi everyone, long time reader, first time posting.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm pointing out this is based on one individual's experience, and said person has a history of being inaccurate and inflammatory, so you really can't base anything on their unfounded experience (this story was broken on slashdot with no supporting evidence, and as far as I know, none has come to light, and attempts to duplicate the situation have not been successful). Not only that, but Windows 7 is in beta testing right now, and a free upgrade to its release version is being provided to several Vista customers. MS has a history of similar moves of trying to rectify errors, such as the 3-year warranty extension I got on my XBox 360 free of charge when the RRODs were running rampant. Which brings me to my main point.

It's silly to think MS wants anything but your money and continued support. They're a company, out to make some money, and like every other company, they know it costs way more to convert a client than it does to keep one. This whole theme of "Oh noes, M$ wantz my sole an my pron colekshion!" is born mostly of ignorance and unfortunately rampant fear-mongering. I'm not a strong supporter of MS's tactics, but I think with Windows 7 they really have a chance to do right by their user-base. I have experience with most OSes and I can say for the average user, most Linux distros are so difficult to operate cleanly as to be almost inaccessible, and the Apple alternative leads to a culture (focus on the CULT part) that is engrossing, limited in scope, and difficult to transplant from. When it comes to most middle of the road users, MS and Windows are still the best options out there; and let's face it, not everyone wants everything stupid easy/has the dedication to learn how to run from the command line.

Just wanted clear the air on this one. Sorry forthe rant.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:21pm

um, have you USED win7? it's not worse.. it's better.. even as a beta it's wonderful. i love techdirt but this post is way off, at least do a little research before you write. win7 has had excellent reviews from.. pretty much everywhere.
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Ben, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:25pm

ASUS Eee PC
Can be had with Linux or XP and they work well at a low price.
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dh, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:31pm

I've been using vista for about a year. I don't have any problems with it and I actually like it just as much if not more than XP.
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Brad, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:40pm

Re:
Andrew Kerr: "Microsoft is simply digging themselves a bigger hole.
If they would just release a new OS from scratch, instead of these patches, everything would be better.
FYI, Win Vista is based off Win Xp. Xp off of Millennium, ME off of 98, and 98 off of 95."

Hmm. It's a good thing someone like you came along to explain the code tree in Windows to us! Sadly you got it VERY wrong.

The kernel in Vista is not "based" on XP. XP was the last upgrade of the NT kernel, which came about in the Windows 3.1 days as a server technology. Windows NT 4.0 was next, then the NT kernel skipped Win95, 98, and ME (all based off of the older 16-bit system). 2000 was based on NT, and then XP merged some of ME's superficial features with the more powerful core and multitasking capabilities of NT. So no, XP is not "based off Millenium". None of the code was directly used, because it all came from an incompatible kernel.

Vista's kernel is a fundamental re-write of the system kernel.

Also, XP is almost 8 years old. You've had it for 5 years, and then some.

I like how the second line of your comment "would just release a new OS from scratch" and the last one "I would prefer to have one OS that lasts..." seem incompatible. Which do you want them to do? Or is it that there are no easy answers?
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Brad, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:45pm

This wasn't a downgrade
Mike, while it's cute that you think the XP was a Downgrade, it's clear you didn't actually bother to read it. She went from Vista Home to XP Pro. That's not a "downgrade". That's like saying "I traded in my 2008 Chevy Aveo for a 2001 Peterbilt 388, and they had the nerve to charge me a downgrade!"

It doesn't matter that it's newer, it was a lower end product being traded for a higher-end, professional one. Also, it wasn't Microsoft doing the trade - it was her OEM. Microsoft didn't see any of the money, and they never sold her a Vista license. Just the one XP Pro license.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:48pm

Re: Re: Wow, lot's of misunderstanding
Maybe, when linux will run the software I use and require.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 2:57pm

Linux? Meh. Apple's Marketing may make OSX a bigger threat.
I would be more concerned about OSX being released for the regular PC market. I've watched a few threads on this topic, on other sites, and it appears all they would need is a good installer with solid hardware detection.

Some may say it'll never happen as Apple is a HW company, but I've been watching the space, and a lot of people who get OSX to work on their PC ultimately buy Mac Hardware within a 1-2 year time frame.

All this could be a part of a long-term strategy. But it makes sense considering Apple's move to CES from MacWorld.
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Mike (profile), 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:00pm

Re:
um, have you USED win7? it's not worse.. it's better.. even as a beta it's wonderful. i love techdirt but this post is way off, at least do a little research before you write. win7 has had excellent reviews from.. pretty much everywhere.

um, did you read the article? This wasn't a comment on Windows 7. This was a joke about the stupid person suing Microsoft. In other words, this post was in support of Microsoft's position. I love our commenters, but this comment is way off, at least do a little reading before you write.

:)
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Mike (profile), 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:01pm

Re: This wasn't a downgrade
Mike, while it's cute that you think the XP was a Downgrade, it's clear you didn't actually bother to read it. She went from Vista Home to XP Pro. That's not a "downgrade". That's like saying "I traded in my 2008 Chevy Aveo for a 2001 Peterbilt 388, and they had the nerve to charge me a downgrade!"

Doesn't that... um... support the point of the post even more? If it was an "upgrade" (and I still say that's debatable), then what's wrong with charging for it?
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GHynson, 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:10pm

Free XP
Since MS is being a B&$% about the availablity of XP even though they clearly know the public wants it.
I say F*&$ MS and download a free, unlocked version of XP from any torrent site.
I've since been running a cracked version of XP ever since my new notebook came with Windows Shitsa and the OEM would'nt let me "Upgrade" to XP.
MS lost my $149 for XP cause of thier S&*#-headedness
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:14pm

Re: Windows
that's because windows 7 is really Vista SP2
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:23pm

Re:
If IE7 freezes on you every day then you may need to learn how to use a computer...
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CmdrOberon, 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:24pm

Re: Re: Vista does suck but Windows 7 will suck even worse..
They won't keep hash values of all software
ever created, but they can keep hash values
of software you've installed. Imagine that
they're doing this to preven virii from attaching
to binaries.

So, you copy a new & different DLL on top of an old one
and the system should refuse to let it run.

But, it should also allow you to clean up the mess.
From the Article I read, it will not let you clean
up the mess.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:29pm

Re: Re:
Or, more likely, they just need to click here:

http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/
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Geoff, 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:32pm

Vista [Home edition]
I have tweaked Vista to my likings.
Rock solid....no probs.with numerous s/w apps.
Granted Win7 is less of a pig than Vista, but Win7 is still in beta.
Tried Linux for years and it still sucks the big one.
Macs too expensive for my taste.
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Bobby (profile), 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:34pm

I like XP, Vista and Windows 7
So far Windows 7 wins hands down, yes I have some compatibility issues with Vista and Win7 but I also had issues with XP back in the day. Example is the vpn software we use, the developers are always slow on an upgrade. So I just VMware my old XP and use it like and application, I know in time the develpoers will get the software ready and I will have the vpn back as a service on the host os.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:35pm

Re: Re: Vista does suck but Windows 7 will suck even worse..
uh, when was the last time you used linux? there are multiple distros that are extremely easy to use.

In a modern linux OS is it easier to install (insert CD and keep clicking next), easier to add programs(just goto the add programs utility and type a search then select install), and come with the basic necessities preloaded (OpenOffice, web browser, so forth) and the user doesn't have to worry about trial software slowing down their computer.

I have set up many computer illiterate people with linux, usually because their old computer needed windows reinstalled because it had been many years and was loaded with junk and they didn't have the install CDs anymore and didn't care what I did as long as they could "do the internet" and read documents. I installed a Linux distro and within 10 minutes they were able to do as much if not more than they did on their windows system. They also don't need to worry nearly as much about viruses or other malware.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 3:57pm

Operating systems!
I think everyone should take a look at this...

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of
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Overcast, 17 Feb 2009 @ 4:11pm

I need something dependable to work on, I don't need the bells and whistles if they take away one single bit from stability.
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Alex, 17 Feb 2009 @ 4:21pm

Operating systems
All of you people out there who think vista sucks! i have news for you. Vista by itself works as well or better than XP, if youre running a computer that you bought from HP, Dell, ect. thats why youre having problems. OEMS dont check their PC's for Defragmentation & registry errors before they send them out, plus all of the OEM software bogs it down even more, and yes i have proof.
I am Running a Clean install of MS windows Vista Ultimate on an Acer AcerPower S260, which has hardware 3-4 years before Vista's time, and it WORKS. i Never ever get BSOD's, IE7 doesnt freeze, ect. in comparison, my school bought 2 BRAND NEW HP laptops (each with a dual core proc & 4 gigs of mem, and Vista home premium SP1), and they both took 10+ minutes to come to the first setup screen. after setup was complete, i ran registry & defrag programs. there were almost 1000 registry errors and over half the drive was completely fragmented. i dont know about you, but that sounds to me like the OEM's are getting LAZY. and i tell you that is the root of most of vistas problems, heck, i didn't even have very many problems without SP1
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TW Burger, 17 Feb 2009 @ 4:27pm

Re: Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
I did. It's easy to get used to and I have had two or three crashes in ten years.
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Autman, 17 Feb 2009 @ 4:48pm

This is a diversity action in the middle district of Washington... according to several news sources, Alvarado alleges violations of the Washington Unfair Business Practices and Consumer protection act, located at http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=19.86

Specifically, Alvarado (plaintiff) alleges an agreement/conspiracy between Microsoft and OEM companies. Note that this case is based on Washington State law, not federal anti-trust (i.e. The Sherman Act)

I have a copy of the complaint filed in the Western District of Washington, it makes a lot of general monopolistic accusations against Microsoft.

The focus here is the agreement between Microsoft/OEM in the sale and licensing of Windows - securing monopoly profits / being anti-competitive.

I'm not familiar with Washington law, but it seems like you're reasoning backward from your conclusion in this post under general ideas of anti-competitive behavior rather than the alleged violations. This is the type of conclusory analysis riddled with "seems" "rathers" and "likelys" I see on techdirt all too often. I love you guys but seriously, stop it.
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TW Burger, 17 Feb 2009 @ 5:02pm

Windows 7 is Vista SP2
Agreed, I'm running the Win7 beta and it is a major service pack, not a new release.
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Joseph, 17 Feb 2009 @ 5:03pm

Re: Vista Issues
I don't know wha the problem is with Vista. I have a laptop and Home PC running Vista (both about 1 year old)I also have a Macbook about 6 months old and I use a PC with XP at work. I've never had a problem with either Vista machine. I work at a computer store where we see computers with all sorts of OS systems coming in each day. The problems with most...adware, spyware and trojans caused by customers visiting and downloading from porn websites or torent sites. The other thing we see are problems caused by people downloading free programs that are untested and often cause problems. It's amazing how often people claim that they don't know who would have been on such sites. Stop downloading crap and stay away from porn and Vista, XP , Apple OSX will likely all be problem free...
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 5:07pm

Re: Re: The Past
I always liked "MicroSquish" since I read it over ten years ago.

Although the best is the Chinese translation used in Microsoft's first Asian advertising campaign that literally translated to "Small and Flaccid".
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Joseph, 17 Feb 2009 @ 5:08pm

Re: Quickbooks
I use Quickbooks Enteprise one office and I have quickbooks pro on this very machine. All have Vista on them and all have no problems and I've never had to buy anything extra. I ran Quickbooks 2008 versions last year and Quickbboks 2009 this year and I've never had a problem. How old is the version your mother is using?
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Autman, 17 Feb 2009 @ 5:25pm

If anyone wants to discuss the merits of the anti-trust violation you can check out the txt of the complaint at my blog or to just check out the txt http://www.scribd.com/doc/12421859/Complaint-Against-Microsoft
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rob s, 17 Feb 2009 @ 5:40pm

Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
while i dont use vista i have 2 dell computers
one was given to me and the other i bought cheap.
after dealing with dell for a few minor issues with the 2 computers, i would NEVER buy another dell unless it was an amazing deal ... i think dell SUCKS
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TW Burger, 17 Feb 2009 @ 5:44pm

Free (or Cheap) OS Options are Good Business
When I went looking for a new laptop I could not find XP on anything except the little netbooks. The exception was Dell, but the price was too high given that I do not require the level of support offered and my local wholesaler who would custom order anything I wanted but the price for such customization was again too high.

I bought and returned two laptops running Vista Home addition. The first would not run at all (Vista crashed or simply did not respond when doing anything) and the second performed poorly.

Finally, Staples advertised a business laptop that had Vista Business with an XP Pro option at a very decent price. I bought two and a bunch of accessories and software dropping over $3600 in one store in one day. I'm sure other retailers would have liked to have had my business but they would not offer me the flexibility.

The new laptops run a P8600 dual core CPU and with Vista are no faster than my six year old computer with a 2.4GHz P4 running XP Pro. Some of my software like Visual Studio 2003 will not run in Vista. This is an expensive development package made by Microsoft (place ironic pause here) and I need it for my work. I probably will change the new computers to run XP Pro.

If I had not had the XP option I probably would not have bought the computers and would have ordered a blank machine and put a Linux distro on it. With the current economic climate computer resellers must demand Microsoft allow them to provide what customers want, not what MS wants.

Microsoft needs to look into supporting XP and Vista and simply improving upon them for the next few years offering updates for a small fee and fixes for free. All computers sold should be setup with a basic OS version and then allow the customer to download any version they need.

If MS is adamant that Windows needs to evolve into the 21st century they should go the Apple OS X root and rebuild Windows completely from the ground up based on an established, proven, secure platform. It's too bad MS did not manage to buy QNX in the 1980s (they tried). Windows may have been the best OS ever if it was based on the Neutrino micro-kernel.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 5:47pm

Re: Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
The line you're looking for is

'I was told they no longer offer XP and the laptop was "specifically" designed for Vista (which is crap, given the 1525 model has been out for years).'

If you're going to snipe, at least don't be an idiot about it.
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Clueby4, 17 Feb 2009 @ 6:14pm

Works for Me = "noise"
Yea gota love those less then useless "Works for Me" posts.
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jeff, 17 Feb 2009 @ 6:18pm

Tired of Microsoft...try Linux...
I have been a Microsoft junkie since Microsoft came about, but I have recently come to my senses and switched to Linux. I will not tell you that Linux is flawless or perfect. It have inherently similar flaws that MS has. The only difference is that it is free and has the world working on fixing bugs and flaws with each update. Not mention it is FREE and almost every program that runs on Windows has an alternative for linux. What have you got to lose except time trying it and you lose that trying to decide which flavor of Windows to use.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2009 @ 6:53pm

The younger generation understands
The younger generation understands tech stuff better than their parents, this is a given. M$ knows this and sees the inevitable result. M$ market domination is waning, and will continue to decline unless they can do something to lock in the users to their product.
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Kevin, 17 Feb 2009 @ 8:16pm

XP vs Vista
If I could be assured 100% in writing with an Insurance policy attached signed by Bill Gates himself and notarized, that going to the new Vista version would not cause me any pain, suffering or lost wages (I actually use my computer to earn a living), I would change.

Until that day happens, I will continue on with my stable and great 'ol XP Pro.
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OldGeek, 17 Feb 2009 @ 9:15pm

Bunch of Youngin's
It seems none of the posters are old enough to remember moving from 16 bit architecture to 32 bit. Had the same problems back then, had to get all new apps. Now we're moving from 32 bit to 64 bit and yes you're going to have problems. I've had to dump Linux because my new 64 bit system isn't supported, but I keep getting told that linux works well on older hardware. Well Vista Ultimate 64 is running great, sure I needed to get some new apps, glad I did because there better than the old ones. I'm not a fanboy of any OS, I just use what works and right now Windows works real well. Yes there are still times I miss BeOS-DR5, OS/8 or OS/2-Warp2, but one has to keep up with the times or get left behind.
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro, 17 Feb 2009 @ 10:15pm

Re: Bunch of Youngin's
OldGeek reminisced:

It seems none of the posters are old enough to remember moving from 16 bit architecture to 32 bit. Had the same problems back then, had to get all new apps.

We certainly didn't. Apple brought out its first 32-bit machine (the Macintosh II) in 1987, and guess what? Most of the existing software worked just fine.
Of course, it helped that the 16-bit Motorola 68000 CPU that Apple had been using in its previous models was really a cut-down 32-bit processor, unlike Intel's short-sighted x86 designs.
Not that I'd recommend Apple nowadays; they're just another proprietary vendor with the usual monopolistic tendencies. Go for Free software—that's "free" as in "freedom". A system like Linux is your best long-term choice.
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Ynynymys, 17 Feb 2009 @ 10:30pm

Finally used Vista
I used Vista a couple weeks ago on my mother's laptop so I could download the Eeebuntu ISO. Just downloading the ISO and unetbootin caused IE to keep crashing. When I finally got them to download, I opened My Computer to clear out my USB drive and it froze up on me. Then I tried to open the task manager from the Start menu, and the Start menu froze up too. I tried to reboot, but it just hung waiting for Explorer to close. Had to hard reset the laptop. Repeated the freezing/hard reset thing two more times, then finally got to unetbootin. I haven't had a single problem with Eeebuntu yet.
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Jeeva, 18 Feb 2009 @ 2:05am

Microsoft has done a "Microsoft" ... again
I dont see why the author of this piece is blind to Microsoft's ever expanding (nefarious, if you will) plans to squeeze out every last bit of money from each computer user.

This seems to be no more / no less a ploy to the same end.

Sadly, we the customers continue to be suckers!
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R.Miles, 18 Feb 2009 @ 4:15am

Re: Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
Some of the BIOs settings/upgrades do not work with XP.
BIOS is still software. There's not many new devices in this laptop which aren't XP compatible, and the new ones were added to support Vista.

Why do you think there's a huge compatibility list from Microsoft? Not all things are as simple as a BIOS upgrade.

The way I see it is that there are plenty of laptop manufactures out there
Yes, that's true, but I've been with Dell for a long time due to customer satisfaction and quality of products. I know some out there have had issues, but I haven't. So I keep coming back.

Learn Linux
No reason to until the Linux software library can match the software I use designed for Windows.
Believe me, I'm keeping tabs on Linux updates and am looking forward to the day I'm free of Windows.

Microsoft will just never get it.

I don't know what the problem is with Vista.
Machines are used differently, but I'll simply state this: As an administrator, I shouldn't have to run software with the option "Run As Administrator" just to get it to work.

A simple inclusion of this in Vista's help section would have eliminated 3+ hours of web searching I had to do in order to get the damn thing to do what it was supposed to do.

I wouldn't recommend Vista to my worst enemy.
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R. Miles, 18 Feb 2009 @ 4:27am

Re: Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
Did you buy Vista Home, or Business?
Home, Premium. I didn't see any added value of purchasing a Vista Business solution.

Also, it is the OEM's decision whether or not they want to offer XP.
Actually, it's not. Microsoft made this call. Dell has no choice.

You could have paid for an XP license instead
Why? I still have my XP CD from my desktop, which is sitting and collecting dust.
XP wouldn't install on the laptop. I tried.

At any rate, it's done now. I hear good things coming from Windows 7.

Let's just hope Microsoft listened to its customers this time.
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Peter Blaise (profile), 18 Feb 2009 @ 5:02am

Yes, break up the Microsoft monopoly at last ... though Microsoft seems to be hell bent to do that themselves!
.

"... The launch of Vista has been a massive disappointment for the company, not a part of a nefarious strategy to jack up the prices on XP ..."

That's not the point. XP isn't good, it's merely better.

The point is that Microsoft is taking advantage of it's monopoly position to charge for BOTH Vista and XP for those who do not want Vista.

Try this:

"... The launch of Vista has been a massive disappointment for the company, proving the point of why we break up monopolies -- because monopolies diminish competitive innovation in commerce that should provide opportunities and enhancements to the qualities of life of the citizen ...".

At least that's the way the US Constitution reads.

.
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Peter Blaise (profile), 18 Feb 2009 @ 5:28am

.

"... I hear good things coming from Windows 7 ..."

Nope, just repackaging. Same half-dozen confusing product line, same re-learn everything to use it, same replace your peripherals and upgrade your software if you're coming from XP or earlier, same double your PC resources requirements, same old crap from the same old monopoly.

.
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Peter Blaise (profile), 18 Feb 2009 @ 5:37am

.

"... Okay, the downgrade fee is from the OEM, NOT from Microsoft ..."

Wrong. Microsoft already charged the vendors in bulk for Vista on every PC they sell, so you cannot buy a PC without the vendor already including the price of Vista in the total price. So, when we ask for XP instead, they cannot make XP available instead, only as an extra price addition -- we pay for Vista, which we do not want, AND we pay for XP, which we at least tolerate. Also, Microsoft is raising prices on XP to try and stop their total loss of revenue due to Vista being accurately perceived as anti-customer crap (and 7 will be no different).

What we are seeing is the fallout results of monopoly practices. Microsoft won, we all loose, and now Microsoft is complaining that they have so little future now that they have won their monopoly position. It's what they deserve, and what we deserve for allowing ourselves to be bushwhacked by a shrub for 8 years. (Clinton's administration was moving forward on the break up of the monopoly.)

,
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hegemon13, 18 Feb 2009 @ 7:03am

Re: Re: Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
"Actually, it's not. Microsoft made this call. Dell has no choice."

Actually, you're wrong. Microsoft offered the downgrade rights, true, but Dell is not required to offer the service of building an XP installation. You have the right to do it yourself, and most OEMs offer the service as an extra revenue stream, but it is entirely their choice.

"You could have paid for an XP license instead
Why? I still have my XP CD from my desktop, which is sitting and collecting dust.
XP wouldn't install on the laptop. I tried."

Why? Because you bough Vista Home, which means that, legally, you don't HAVE downgrade rights. OEM licenses are non-transferable, so you also can't use that old license on your new laptop.
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hegemon13, 18 Feb 2009 @ 7:06am

Re: Re: Re: Vista does suck but Windows 7 will suck even worse..
That makes no sense. You are saying that Windows would not allow software to be upgraded. Upgrades often overwrite DLLs.
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hegemon13, 18 Feb 2009 @ 7:18am

Re: Re: Wow, lot's of misunderstanding
Er, what, if anything, did that have to do with my post.

And, FYI, I run Ubuntu Gutsy on my laptop, and I love it. However, newer versions have a critical incompatibility with my video chipset which does not allow standby or hibernate. I have found no solution in the forums. I have tried a lot of options, including saving my old xorg.conf to use in the new build, but nothing works. So, there is an example where even an experienced user can't find a solution. How do you think a normal end-user will deal with something like that? Linux is great when everything is working. The problem is that, when it breaks, the average end-user has no hope of resolving issues.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 8:08am

Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
90% of your software didn't work in Vista? Really?

Forgive me, but I find that awfully hard to believe. Vista is actually a very decent operating system, and the refinements with service pack 1 were substantial. Most software works fine. Granted, some older and more rare software types may have a harder time. For the most part though, it'll run mainstream apps and games just fine. In some events application patches may be needed. (*Gasp* Oh no! Not that!)

Secondly, the 1525 model has been out for years. However, has it been out for years with the same specs? Likely not - as who would buy a 2+ year old computer system. Thus, it's the newer components they say are designed for Vista. More so, it's that Microsoft has minimum requirements for OEM's to say their products are "Vista Ready" or "Vista Capable". So, alas, the OEM's upgrade to the minimum requirements so they can add the Vista Ready or Vista Capable stickers to their machines - effectively engineering their products specifically for Vista. I'm sure that is what Dell means.

Third,
For someone who obviously is not an early adopter of technology, you seem to have a lot to say about an OS that you have very little experience with. Not to mention Vista is far beyond the "early adopter" stage. If you only knew. Vista has many great features and has a lot of power behind it. It's a transition operating system in many ways, yes, but that doesn't make it horrible.

Grow up. :)
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TDR, 18 Feb 2009 @ 9:14am

Don't forget that Vista has DRM in it as well as an encrypted backdoor that only Microsoft can unlock so they can modify your system when and if they want. Even if you turn off the automatic upgrades, they can still force them on you. One such upgrade completely wiped out my Vista partition and I had to reinstall onto a different one, and I still can't access the original.

I'd have switched to linux by now, but I'm a gamer and I've had trouble getting to work with my video drivers, it just doesn't want to find them for some reason. Instead I just get dumped to a command prompt.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 9:21am

Re:
I've yet to BSOD Vista... Not saying it can't happen, obviously, because it most certainly can. However, since running the Beta, the RC, pre-SP1 install, and post-SP1 install, I haven't been able to accomplish a BSOD in any everyday-use scenario. I could probably force one to happen, but that isn't the point...

If your programs are constantly locking up, and you're constantly having BSOD's, perhaps it is due to your RAM. Those are frequent issues with bad RAM. Maybe it IS Vista, but, it sounds like there is more investigating you could do...

Also noting that Vista will use more RAM than XP, and use it much more often. So if there is in fact issues with your RAM, those issues could be more privy in Vista than XP.

...Just saying.
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Jim, 18 Feb 2009 @ 9:28am

Re: Windows
I'm not impressed with Windows 7. 1- It's ugly- very very ugly. 2- It works hard to babysit you and prevent you from doing anything that MS didn't plan on you doing. Trying to replace that DLL? Sorry, your just a user, you can't do that. I bought an extra copy of XP awhile ago and when I buy my next system, that's what is going on it.
The thing that burns me up is that when people buy a system from DELL or HP, part of what they're paying for is Vista, then they have to buy XP, thus giving MS money twice. They actually make more money by making their new versions worse than their old ones.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 9:30am

Re: Vista douse suck
Windows 7 is entirely built off of Windows Vista - just so you know.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 9:57am

Re: Windows
Haha, seriously? I remember the 98 and ME days well enough to know that Vista is not nearly as bad. I think you're saying that simply to attract attention to your comment.

It worked.

Vista does a lot more than you know. The support for current and future technology is widely built into Vista, which is why it works so well in a Server 2008 environment. In fact, it is amazing when compared to Server 2003 / XP or even Server 2008 / XP.

As you noted, you've not had any problems with crashes. So where do your complaints stem from? After all, Vista is a step under 98... I can think of a laundry list of 98 problems that would annoy me to no end long before forming a list for Vista. So because you're using that as the basis for your comment, I think you should elaborate - or, you could just stop commenting.

I'll agree that Windows Vista was a let down in the sense of... They took so long to build it, and it didn't come out with a lot of flash or a bang. Rather, I expected it to have more and do more - but it is what it is. For me it has been stable, it works well with newer tech, and will take advantage of a lot of upcoming tech. I have zero complaints.

Windows 7 is Windows Vista SP2. Really. It's very much the same - especially the fundamentals. To say Microsoft should have released Vista in the state Windows 7 is in, is arrogant. Even with all their testing it takes a consumer market to reflect some of the core issues in an OS. Then they write service packs to address those issues and roll-up the slew of updates.

...The difference is that Vista was criticized so badly by the mass media, and Apple, and other know-nothings, that they now have to release the same software again under the name Windows 7, and tweak it a bit.

Hooray.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 1:13pm

Re: Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
Actually all you should have had to do was to slipstream the SATA/RAID driver in the XP install disk.
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Azrael, 18 Feb 2009 @ 1:14pm

Re: Re: Re: Someone should forward this to Dell.
Hey, have you ever heard of Wine ? I can run in it practically everything that doesn't require DirectX.
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Azrael, 18 Feb 2009 @ 1:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Wow, lot's of misunderstanding
In that case run it thru Wine.
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Azrael, 18 Feb 2009 @ 1:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Wow, lot's of misunderstanding
In that case use another distro, anyone would be better than the Herring.
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scott, 18 Feb 2009 @ 2:34pm

It's all BS
We've wanted a stable operating system for 30 years.
All we get is new ones that REQUIRE buying a new computer, new software, and new internet, and new this and that, and subscriptions for anti malware and other services. Just like the housing bubble bursting....this will break too.
Unfortunately there are no real alternatives except maybe linux.
Hey Microsoft...we're all out of money and your OS still causes more headaches than productive work.!...now what?
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Jacques VANDEN BORRE, 19 Feb 2009 @ 8:39am

Windows Vista
I don't think there is anything wrong with Vista, except for the fact that you need to get used to the new GUI. I have and I like it beacuse it is more secure than Windows XP. And when Windows 7 emerges, I definitely will upgrade to it beacuse it is going to be even better.
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Mark, 19 Feb 2009 @ 8:47am

I've never understood this
...why so many people with above-average intelligence foolishly advocate linux, when linux a) has all kinds of device driver instability, b) doesn't run world-standard Microsoft software, c) requires the user to spend time learning a clunky command-line interface and assosciated arcane vocabulary, and d) requires the user to learn how to install an entirely new type of OS.

Most people do not get off on tinkering with their OS. Most people want to use their computer to get their work done, and get on with their lives.
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Jacques VANDEN BORRE, 19 Feb 2009 @ 8:49am

Windows Vista
I don't think there is anything wrong with Vista, except for the fact that you need to get used to the new GUI. I have and I like it beacuse it is more secure than Windows XP. And when Windows 7 emerges, I definitely will upgrade to it beacuse it is going to be even better.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Feb 2009 @ 3:30pm

Re: I've never understood this
...why so many people with above-average intelligence foolishly advocate linux, when linux a) has all kinds of device driver instability,

very few things in a modern linux have have driver problems.

b) doesn't run world-standard Microsoft software,

It Doesn't need to though, it has Open Office to replace Microsoft office (and it is better at reading documents from older versions, both of itself and MS, and preserving formatting than Microsoft is) and offers functionality that MS office lacks without extra features installed (Printing to PDF)

c) requires the user to spend time learning a clunky command-line interface and assosciated arcane vocabulary,
You clearly having used a modern linux, in OpenSuse and Ubuntu you do not have to use the command line at all, and if you decide to do so it is probably because someone is showing you how to do something and finds it easier to say "C&P this line then hit enter" instead of "navigate to this sub-sub-menu and select this option and change it to this"

and d) requires the user to learn how to install an entirely new type of OS.
most of the people linux is suggested to are already facing a reinstall of an OS, so this is a really feeble complaint. When you consider that the install of a modern linux is just clicking next a bunch of times, perhaps selecting a username and pass, it just becomes laughable.

I can set anyone up and get them installing linux is moments without being in the same room, just tell them to put the disc in, turn off the computer, turn in back on, wait till you have a mouse, double-click install, keep clicking next after you put in your name

really, installing an OS is not hard.
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Phillip, 20 Feb 2009 @ 7:31am

Re:
Problems with IE7 != Problems with Windows Vista.

The amount of ignorance surrounding computers is staggering to me.
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BillG, 16 Mar 2009 @ 11:11am

Vista sucks, even today, with all the "fixes" programs constantly crash, even MICROSOFTS ERROR REPORTING SERVICE CRASHES, LOL

And when I tried to downgrade my vista ULTIMATE, I was told by the lady on the phone when I went to activate my XP version, that I didn't have a valid XP KEY. She SAID I NEED TO PAY FOR A VALID XP KEY.

IF I HAVE TO PAY FOR A COPY OF XP, THEN ITS NOT DOWNGRADING, ITS REINSTALLING.

THEY ARE NOW TRYING TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE YOU CAN DOWNGRADE VISTA, ...

But in all REALITY, you cannot, you MUST PURCHASE a 150$ COPY OF A VALID XP.

How is this a downgrade, or how is this considered NOT charging me for the downgrade, (like they advertise users of vista premium can apparently do for "free")

Microsoft is an over-grown beast that needs its head chopped off and split into two competing companies.
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DEBPRATIM GHOSH, 21 Mar 2009 @ 1:29pm

Windows
MAC AND WINDOWS BOTH ARE EXTREMELY HIGH QUALITY OPERATING SYSTEM. BUT IN THE RACE OF OS WINDOWS WINS BECAUSE WINDOWS IS MORE FAMOUS THAN MAC AND ALL OTHER STUFFS THAT WE NEED IN LIFE FROM DIFFERENT COMPANIES ARE SUPPORTED BY WINDOWS. THATS WHY I THINK WINDOWS IS ALWAYS THE BEST.

debpratim.ghosh@gmail.com
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SS9, 16 Aug 2009 @ 5:11pm

Re: Re: Wow, lot's of misunderstanding
Absolutely. Time for everyone to go Linux.
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rpgdude, 22 Oct 2009 @ 7:26pm

Re: Windows 7 is Vista SP2
Microsoft made you pay for a service pack. So basically you had to pay to fix software that didn't work in the first place that you also paid for. How many times will you have to pay for Windows before it works right? The only reason Microsoft has any money is by restricting patches to customers that are gullible enough to keep paying for broken software.
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rpgdude, 22 Oct 2009 @ 7:30pm

Re: Re:
Fundamental rewrite? I'm pretty sure its a heavily patched version of the same NT kernel found in XP. If Microsoft rewrote the kernel, none of your apps would work, they would have to be rewritten against the new kernel API. Oh wait, maybe thats why nothing works now ;-)
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rpgdude, 22 Oct 2009 @ 7:46pm

Re: Bunch of Youngin's
That doesn't make any sense. The Linux kernel supported 64 bit hardware way before Microsoft even attempted to support it. Also, because of the proprietary nature of Windows apps, even though you may be running a 64 bit version of Windows, most of your applications were compiled for 32 bit architecture and don't fully utilize your hardware. Almost all apps written for GNU/Linux are compiled for both 32 bit and 64 bit platforms.
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Spectate Swamp (profile), 27 Oct 2009 @ 7:27am

Who needs windows 7
Not only that but they might break my favorite apps.
More hoops to jump through for no real benefit. So who needs it.
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ttx, 25 Apr 2010 @ 8:15pm

microsoft 7
windows 7 is vista 2 not windows 7 microsoft lied about it and got away with it they put xp out of the stores so people would have to buy windows 7 (vista 2) and they lied about you can get windwos 7 ulitmate what a lie the xp mode does not work at all and you can not print in xp mode so you have to lose out on all of it games do not play in windows 7 and app's do not run in windows 7 like quickbooks 2010 does not run in windows 7 and a lot of games do not play or install in windows 7 and yes microsoft says i have more then what it takes to run windows 7 so i will tell you before you go buy win7 don't i have buddys that beg me to put xp on new computers they buy why is windows 7 is junk or shit
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