The Pirate Bay Closing Arguments: Since We Can't Get The Real Infringers, We Should Blame Everything On These Guys

from the interesting-logic dept

Mon, Mar 2nd 2009 10:58am — Mike Masnick

As the closing arguments are being heard in The Pirate Bay lawsuit in Sweden, there seems to be some rather tortured reasoning by the entertainment industry that's quite troubling if the court accepts it. Representatives for the entertainment industry keep claiming that the claims of "losses" from the entertainment industry (including one guy who claimed that all of the industry's troubles could be pinned on "piracy") should be taken as fact, and the professor who discussed numerous studies showing this was untrue shouldn't be listened to. But the most troubling of all may be this:

The police can't possibly go after all TPB's users and the defendants are therefore responsible for the whole damage claim, he argued, adding that they are free to claim money from their users.

So, because they are too incompetent to deal with the actual problem, they should put all of the blame on the four guys they happened to round up. Doesn't anyone realize how ridiculous a precedent that would set? There's also the claim that damages should cover "the damage in goodwill" to the entertainment industry. Has it not occurred to them that the damage in goodwill wasn't from The Pirate Bay, but the industry's idiotic response to services like The Pirate Bay? Hopefully the court sees through such tortured reasoning.

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Filed Under: closing arguments, liability, sweden, trial
Companies: the pirate bay

81 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 2 Mar 2009 @ 11:50am

Put these 4 guys out of business and clear the way for 8 more
If you put these 4 guys out of business there will be 8 more to replace them. The pirates are still out there. They will find a new, harder-to-track service located in countries that are harder to reach.
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lane, 2 Mar 2009 @ 11:54am

lower cost = more business
So it cost me $1 plus tax to get a song from iTunes, a whole disk costing me 10 - 15 dollars. Are you telling me that it is the same price or more to post music to a website than produce a disk that ends up in stores? Why do you think I turn to P2P? Make it affordable and I'll buy your higher quality product but your greed has killed you. Stop gouging me for my entertainment and I might purchase more of it. On the positive for entertainers, I go see more bands play because I have heard the entire album, not just the single, and dubbed them worth the admission price.
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musashi, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:00pm

I agree with lane
If the cds weren't soooo overpriced, and if dvds and videogames weren't overpriced, there wouldn't be this outcry for piracy. I love having ACTUAL copies of cds it makes me feel like a person, but if i have to decide betweeen lunch and the new linkin park album, then something is going wrong. These music companies are like all the rest, they want rewards for nothing, and they'll charge everyone as much as they have to until their satisfied. The only problem is they are only satisfied for that day...
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Ox, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:01pm

High Priced BS Rock on P2P
yeah what they said...and what about us poor unemployed gamers who are on the virge of selling their gaming rigs who cant afford 50 to 60 bucks per game...WTF is the world coming to....s#ny is broke a$$ becouse of their playstation prices and they whine...how does it feel to be f%^$ed and not kissed first....the ramblings of a madman here...Pirate for life!!
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Reality, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:11pm

Software
If software was more reasonably priced, more would purchase over pirating.

Many claim $700-$1000 for Adobe Photoshop is paying for quality and such, but imagine how many people pirate Photoshop, thus the one person buying a $1000 copy is making up for the 10-20 people who stole it.

Now imagine you could get it for $200. I'll bet money more people would buy it legally.

Same deal for so much software out there.
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A. L. Flanagan, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:12pm

Seen this argument before
The industry has used the "we can't go after each downloader, so we'll get this guy" argument repeatedly. They seem to be saying that because it's infeasible to comply with the law, they should be able to rewrite it. Imagine if we could all do that.
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duh, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:15pm

ok just a thought WINMX is still out there if you "patch" it
can police break a law to enforce a law if not winmx could become the best of the pirate world since winmx was officially closed down long ago. it a lil slow but could make a huge comeback the more pirates go underground
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dazla, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:16pm

Am I a criminal if I use these sites to download tracks that I already have on vinyl but am too lazy to rip to my harddrive???

Am I entitled to ask for compensation from the music industry for pushing compact cassettes at me even though they knew that they would stretch and degrade???

Viva pirate bay!!!
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Ed, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:27pm

I don't understand targeting Pirate Bay at all. If they can do this then it seems to me if two people worked out a plan to rob a bank over the telephone then the telephone company would be liable.
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hegemon13, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:29pm

Re:
Technically, yes, you are. Ethically? Hell, no.

I refuse to "double-dip" on entertainment. If I have a movie on VHS, I won't, except for a few notable exceptions, purchase it again on DVD. VHS tapes were no cheaper than DVD, so why should I pay again just because the technology changed? I won't. I will find somewhere to download the DVD or a friend to copy it from. I have already paid the "royalty" portion of owning that movie. I never started collecting music until CDs, so I haven't had that problem with music, but I would feel the same way.
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B, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:45pm

Re: Re:
That's a pretty good point, actually. As of late the entertainment biz has been really pressing the point that they're selling your a personal license (go read the EULA in a video game pamphlet some time). If I don't have the actual music/game/movie/whatever, and I really just have a license, shouldn't the provider be obligated in some way to make sure my media is available on the most recent technology?
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batch, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:48pm

I hope the Pirate Bay wins
I don't know much about Sweden, but I sure hope their court system isn't totally corrupt and useless like ours in America all too often is.
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KM, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:56pm

NEXT UP
If this goes through, I'll be taking gun manufacturers to court for all gun deaths.
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RD, 2 Mar 2009 @ 12:57pm

re: I hope the Pirate Bay wins
I hope the prosecutors win. Yes, thats right, I hope TPB loses. Here is why. If the Big Media wins this case, it will set a precident. And because of the way copyright and trademark law works, you MUST DEFEND AGAINST ANY INFRINGEMENT YOU KNOW OF. And that means they will HAVE TO go after Google, MSN, Yahoo, etc. You dont get to cherry-pick the infringers you go after, you have to defend ALL that are known. If not, you LOSE many (or all) of the protections C and TM provide. So, I want TPB to lose so it will bankrupt these companies when they go after Google, or they dont and lose their protections. If only this were in the USA, losing this case would nip the entire copyright issue in the bud in one fell swoop.
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Killer_Tofu (profile), 2 Mar 2009 @ 1:04pm

Re: Re:
While IANAL, I was under the impression that it is not against the law at all to download music you already own.
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LJSeinfeld, 2 Mar 2009 @ 1:08pm

RD's ass-backwards Precident (sic)
Why not just use the precedent set by WINNING the case in front them?
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Killer_Tofu (profile), 2 Mar 2009 @ 1:10pm

Re: re: I hope the Pirate Bay wins
You only must defend against Trademark infringement.
Even then really, you don't have to, but if you don't, you will lose it.
Content producers have every right to not enforce the stupid copyright laws we have here in the US. In most cases it is in their best interest not to enforce them (if it is their fans spreading their work).
Even with trademark, they are stretching it these days. Trademark was made to prevent consumer confusion. However, we are seeing tons of stupid court cases these days where it really has absolutely nothing to do with consumer confusion (See: Monster cables).
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Mar 2009 @ 1:15pm

Re: Re: Re:
Well while IANAL either, I don't believe it is against the law to download anything at all, or at least they can't get you for it. They only go after the uploaders.
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Mario Koch, 2 Mar 2009 @ 1:42pm

The price that even one guy hast to go to jail is far to high.
These guys may sound rude for american lawyer who think US jurisdiction applies worldwide. But its about truth should win.

If you go into partnerships with the US you are dependend, just a small tool in their hands they will always use you press all the money out of you. People should learn who made the worlds economy to collapse, speculating on food prices.

See all this prime ministers kissing ass in Washington. Now its time to go for new partnerships with countries other than the so called civilized countries feeding the world with wars. India and China really need help but hve ressources. See how Africa profits from partnerships with China. First time ever they feel treated like a real partner. What America has changed? Banana Republics will remain always banana republics, poor and hopeless. Thats how they are used to treat business partners in a puppet theatre.

Dont expect fairness or truth from Americas music industry. All they want is to remain in power and to make the most money out of it.
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Sean, 2 Mar 2009 @ 1:58pm

Re: High Priced BS Rock on P2P
You probably wouldn't be unemployed if you could compose a sentence. Perhaps you should work on your spelling and grammar, along with conveying actual ideas.

Saying that piracy is good because it helps uneducated, stupid unemployed gamers isn't going to win you any praise.

If you can't afford 50-60 dollar games a month, maybe you should consider getting a job, even a restaurant job, or consider playing your older games again. You make it sound like you NEED a new game every month.
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alternatives, 2 Mar 2009 @ 2:02pm

CD business had fraud in the past
The class action and the $12 I got showed me they are not above fraud. Why should I think they are fraud free now?

I don't use pirate bay or P2P for 'piracy' of music/movies. I gave e'm up once the DMCA became law. But given their past and present actions - I have no sympathy for 'em.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Mar 2009 @ 2:03pm

You guys should all try living here in Australia. A new release album can cost as much as $39. That's right you read me right. 39 freakin dollars!

Tell me again why piracy is so rampant?
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Kevin, 2 Mar 2009 @ 2:12pm

Re: I agree with lane
but if i have to decide betweeen lunch and the new linkin park album

I agree...if you're even considering Linkin Park over a ham sandwich, there's DEFINITELY a problem (though not with the music industry).
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UnlikeLobster, 2 Mar 2009 @ 2:32pm

Re: Re: High Priced BS Rock on P2P
Actually, Ox makes a valid point. One of the main reasons the PS3 is suffering is because of its prices. It costs far more than either the Wii or the 360, and Sony has failed to secure the hottest titles exclusively for the PS3. Sony shouldn't complain about their failure to move units when they made their system so inaccessible. There's no point to pay $600 for a system that doesn't have any good games on it.

Also, Sean, not all gamers are uneducated and unemployed. In fact it's quite the opposite. But it doesn't change the fact that the prices of games are overinflated. Since almost all console games are about 50-60 bucks, even those who have jobs can't afford to pay that much in this economy.
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UnlikeLobster, 2 Mar 2009 @ 2:37pm

Re:
That's about the idea, but in this case, the entertainment companies would rather go after the middleman than restructure an outdated business model.
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Kevin (profile), 2 Mar 2009 @ 3:01pm

Re: Theft
Everyone now should bow their heads and pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that he brings our pirates safely home. Amen.
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TPBer, 2 Mar 2009 @ 3:07pm

Re: Re: Theft
Inspiring words from a true Pastafarian, I totally concur!
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Anshar (profile), 2 Mar 2009 @ 3:26pm

So-called 'losses'
My main point of contention with the entertainment industry's arguments is their claim that every download is a lost sale.
I disagree. Reality's post regarding Photoshop makes an outstanding example. Who really thinks that everyone who pirates photoshop would go out and pay $1000 for it if pirating it were (for whatever reason) not an option? Not many, to be sure.
There are products out there which are worth their prices and there are those which are not. Those which are not worth their prices might be worth a lower price but unless manufacturers and/or vendors drop the "pay this price or don't buy it all" attitude and let the market set a fair price, paying that lower price can't happen. The exception is the used market but then again, the entertainment industry seems to put that on par with piracy anyway.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Mar 2009 @ 3:45pm

Re: So-called 'losses'
"The exception is the used market but then again, the entertainment industry seems to put that on par with piracy anyway."

Quite. DRM on computer games these days has killed whatever used computer game industry existed. They're using technology to escape the first sale doctrine because they can't get Congress to remove it.
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Lars UltraRich, 2 Mar 2009 @ 4:30pm

Re: lower cost = more business
They've been ripping us off for years (as proven by their loss of a large class-action price fixing lawsuit), and yet they get all huffy when someone else does it to them? Guess they only like screwing when they're on top...

EVERY study ever done not paid for by the music industry shows that lower prices results in higher sales, usually MUCH higher, but they're too stupid to take that business model and run with it, instead insisting that the world remake itself to keep their old one profitable.
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Lars UltraRich, 2 Mar 2009 @ 4:37pm

Re: Re:
Technically, no he isn't. If he owns the vinyl, he owns the rights to the song, for his own personal use no matter how he sees fit. Unless he specifically transfers ownership of that song (or, in the case of an album, songs), it remains his. The artists have (supposedly) been paid, the record companies have been paid, heck, in many cases they've been paid twice due to fees imposed on blank cassettes and blank "music" CD's. Download away, the music is legally yours.
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Marc, 2 Mar 2009 @ 5:20pm

Re: re: I hope the Pirate Bay wins
I hope you are right
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Weird Harold, 2 Mar 2009 @ 5:21pm

Pirate Bay basically is a criminal facilitation system, nothing more and nothing less. They don't actually rip the stuff off, but they profit grandly from the theft.

Tell the truth: if the only stuff on Pirate Bay was there entirely legally, would any of you actually visit? Think about it, no DVD rips, no software with keygens, no ripped CDs, no Pr0n. What would be left would be nothing more than a tucows file list.

They know what is on their site (even as they tell little white lies in court about it) and pile the cash up offshore. If you don't think they are profiting from it, well, then you might want to watch out for the tooth fairy trying to rip your teeth out tonight when you sleep.
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One-Eye Blinded, 2 Mar 2009 @ 6:37pm

Ridiculous
If the media industry wasn't so self-seeking and greedy and made their products more affordable, people most likely wouldn't have a problem paying for a quality product. But why would someone want to pay 3 hours worth of working at a minimum wage job for a CD or DVD, and why would someone want to pay the amount of a used car for software?

Get with the program people! We're in a depression! And if people weren't pirating media, there would still be no increase in profits for the media industries - normal people don't have $15.00 for music or $8,000 for software.
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code connector, 2 Mar 2009 @ 6:54pm

Well, weird harold

Your local roadmap maker is also a criminal facilitation system, nothing more and nothing less. He doesn't actually rape and plunder but he profits enourmously from it.

You see, many so called "criminal" bikers are looking for the local hells angels club. They buy roadmaps to find it.

Tell the truth: if only the stuff on the roadmap was entirely legally, would any of the bikers actually take a roadmap ?

Think about it, no angelhome or policestation or banks or hangouts on the map. What would be left would be nothing more than a big collection of white spots.

The roadmap makers KNOW what is on their map (even if they would never admit to have heard of hells angels) and pile their cash up offshore.

If you think that this is far fetched....do you have any idea then what a torrent actually is ??

In the future: Would you be rewarded...or rather arrested...for just pointing out where the hells angels live ?

torrents, read about it and educate yourself.
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code connector, 2 Mar 2009 @ 6:54pm

Well, weird harold

Your local roadmap maker is also a criminal facilitation system, nothing more and nothing less. He doesn't actually rape and plunder but he profits enourmously from it.

You see, many so called "criminal" bikers are looking for the local hells angels club. They buy roadmaps to find it.

Tell the truth: if only the stuff on the roadmap was entirely legally, would any of the bikers actually take a roadmap ?

Think about it, no angelhome or policestation or banks or hangouts on the map. What would be left would be nothing more than a big collection of white spots.

The roadmap makers KNOW what is on their map (even if they would never admit to have heard of hells angels) and pile their cash up offshore.

If you think that this is far fetched....do you have any idea then what a torrent actually is ??

In the future: Would you be rewarded...or rather arrested...for just pointing out where the hells angels live ?

torrents, read about it and educate yourself.
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code connector, 2 Mar 2009 @ 6:56pm

sorry for the dupe
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electroidolisis, 2 Mar 2009 @ 6:59pm

I think ethically I am right. I do not download cheesy ripped off movie rips. I don't want to hear people coughing and eating popcorn on my rip. Stupid. The guys who went to jail for stealing brand new movies deserve it. Let them make their money first. All sales after movie leaves box office are "middle men driven". I don't feel bad about downloading an old movie I've seen a 100 times. What's the harm. Everyone downloading brand new stuff are ruining for the rest of the ethical downloaders. Here's a hint... you guys called yourselves the pirate bay, what were you thinking as far as fighting a cause. You should have called yourselves fairshare or something not so obvious. Look, I love these guys, but your plan sucked.
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Spectere, 2 Mar 2009 @ 6:59pm

Re: High Priced BS Rock on P2P
Wait, so you have a "gaming rig" but can't afford to pay out $50 for a game every once in a while?

...

Congratulations, you've left me completely speechless.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Mar 2009 @ 7:16pm

Re: Re: I agree with lane
Where do you guys eat lunch? I can get lunch 3 times for the price of one linkin Park Album....
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Mike (profile), 2 Mar 2009 @ 7:18pm

Re: re: I hope the Pirate Bay wins
I hope the prosecutors win. Yes, thats right, I hope TPB loses. Here is why. If the Big Media wins this case, it will set a precident. And because of the way copyright and trademark law works, you MUST DEFEND AGAINST ANY INFRINGEMENT YOU KNOW OF.

This is false when it comes to copyright.

It's also not quite true (but closer to true) when it comes to trademark.
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Mike (profile), 2 Mar 2009 @ 7:27pm

Re:
Pirate Bay basically is a criminal facilitation system, nothing more and nothing less

Actually, quite a bit more. It's why many artists actively promote their music via the Pirate Bay. Why should they be barred from doing so, just because some others misuse it?

And based on your reasoning, Google is equally a "criminal facilitation system."

They don't actually rip the stuff off, but they profit grandly from the theft.

You might want to look up the definition of "theft" and then come back and admit you are wrong yet again. There is no theft at all going on here. There may be infringement, but it's not theft.

Tell the truth: if the only stuff on Pirate Bay was there entirely legally, would any of you actually visit?

I don't visit it now, so I'm not sure what difference that would make.

What would be left would be nothing more than a tucows file list.

Well, and music from the many artists who purposely use it for distribution. Lots of Linux distros use it as well. Plenty of people use it for legit purposes. What do you have against them?

If you don't think they are profiting from it

First of all, even if we take all you've said as given, and that they are profiting from illegal activity on the site, again, you still wouldn't have a case, because they are the tool provider and are not infringing on any actual copyrights themselves.

It must be fun being totally ignorant of liability rules.
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Never, 2 Mar 2009 @ 7:27pm

Re: Weird Harold
@ #33 - by Weird Harold - Mar 2nd, 2009 @ 5:21pm

I totally disagree with your post, if the only content on TPB was General Licensed material the site would still host a large following.

The Bittorrent system is an amazing way to distribute information. Simply because the entertainment industry has failed to utilize the into a system that can directly benefit content authors opposed to their middle men doesn't mean the site craters should be punished.

Its been stated in this thread that if the four of them get taken out eight more will spring up (its the system, stupid). Oh and on that note, the craters have all right to make money off of there site because they take the time to maintain and update the site. Simple ad revenue and donations are not ill gotten gains.
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goodluck, 2 Mar 2009 @ 7:30pm

Re: Re: High Priced BS Rock on P2P
haha all i can say to the SIIA, AAP, ESA, MPAA, NMPA & RIAA ETC ETC:

GOOD FREAKN LUCK

because.. lets face it - you are going to need it. and a lot of it to stop piracy. so shame. SHAME. you greedy a$$holez
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ghfghf, 2 Mar 2009 @ 8:02pm

Re: Software
Photoshop is a horrible example.

Adobe isn't stupid. They realize that if people borrow a copy and like the product in their own time, that they will use it at work (and pay for the liscense at work). There is a reason they don't go after pirates and that is simply the fact that piracy HELPS them be profitable.

Crazy, I know.
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Doug Hall, 2 Mar 2009 @ 8:16pm

Re: Software
It's not a fair statement to say that Adobe has to charge more for Photoshop BECAUSE of the ones who pirate it. Certainly those who pirate don't actually cost Adobe any money.

If they charge less, more people will purchase it. Period. They may actually make more money due to the increased volume. The assumption that those extra people who purchased Photoshop would have otherwise stolen it, is wrong. There aren't just TWO choices - pay for Photoshop or pirate it. People have many other choices. The can just not buy anything. They can buy Elements. They can purchase another commercial program that does many of the same things, or use The Gimp, or some other open source program.

Companies would like you and everyone else to think that every pirated copy is a lost sale, but that is just not the case.

Yes, pirating is wrong. Yes, software is expensive to create. But I guarantee that the cost of a legitimate copy of Photoshop is NOT affected by pirating. It costs $1000 because enough people/companies are willing to pay that amount per copy.
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Geo, 2 Mar 2009 @ 9:03pm

Re: Re: I agree with lane
True that. I'd rather eat a sandwich than listen to one note of a Linkin Park album.
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david miron, 2 Mar 2009 @ 9:15pm

Pirate Bay Trial CARTOON
Avast Ye Landlubbers, check out my CARTOON about the Pirate Bay Trial
http://www.pcdisorder.com/2009/03/pirate-bay-trial-almost-over-before-it.html
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Thomas, 2 Mar 2009 @ 10:18pm

these guys don't realize that P2P MADE the industry.. u think without sites like TPB, artists would be as popular or would be heard as often?
The way I see it, if TPB and other P2P sites go down, so will the music industry 'coz noones gonna listen to their tracks unless its free (or dirt cheap)...
and P2P is the only solution it seems right now.
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Yogi, 2 Mar 2009 @ 10:34pm

TPB
The level of greed from these moguls never ceases to amaze me..... hit them where it hurts.... boycott, boycott, boycott and see how they like that!
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Mectron, 2 Mar 2009 @ 11:17pm

Stop Piracy?
Easy: Shutdown the MPAA/RIAA

But before that, SUE them for every single cents they have for doing a DoS Attack on the Pirate Bay Website.

if terrorist want a target that will earn them sympathy worldwide, just blowup the RIAA/MPAA headquarter since there is no sign of human life, nothing will be miss.
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OregonDave, 2 Mar 2009 @ 11:32pm

TPB
Overpriced!!!! Its all way overpriced. And most of the performers are ridiculously overpaid!. They have to go after us and sue us to death to pay these over paid twits. I took a pay cut to stay in my chosen profession, I think all the musicians and what not, need a paycut too..

LONG LIVE PIRATE BAY!!!!
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PDG, 3 Mar 2009 @ 12:37am

The Pirate Bay
For years I have watched movies long before they were officially released on DVD and in some cases, before they were even on show in UK cinemas, largely thanks to The Pirate Bay.
Shouldn't the entertainment industry be keeping its own house in order and making every reasonable effort to ensure that the movies don't end up there in the first place?
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COUNTERESTABLISHMENTARIANISMIST, 3 Mar 2009 @ 1:43am

WTF!!!
All gone ???? I was looking 4ward to the 3-d movie trend! Ready with hammer in-hand, you know to really 'focus'... C'es La Vie - Bitches. "Shake the jug!!!" 555 alive.
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Ideas-4-dummies, 3 Mar 2009 @ 1:55am

money-makers
I guess this would be a good time to invest my $78,000 IRA, which has matured to $67.59 ( please wind back the clock!), in my 'codec-on-a-gumball' theme. Also, would anyone be interested in a gently-used kidney? Non-drinker - but I might start here, soon. Better not wait too long! Oy, six years of college and I'm sucking crack for dick!
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Ripped-off Swedish tax payer, 3 Mar 2009 @ 6:36am

TPB and IPRED
Is it any coincidence that this trial comes at the same time as the Swedish government approves the IPRED-law? I don't think so... and in the meanwhile MY tax money is being spent on this ridiculous trial.
MAFIAAs are going down the drain sooner or later, their biz model is not sustainable. If those lads are convicted, they will be turned into martyrs.
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Weird Harold, 3 Mar 2009 @ 7:39am

Re: Re:
Mike, Mike... if ignorance is bliss you are turning into one of the happiest guys on the internet.

Don't confuse TPB with P2P - bit torrent ISN'T TPB. Notice I don't say anything against P2P file transfers. Moving Linux distros and freeware software and GPL products including music isn't the issue. P2P isn't the issue.

The issue is what is on TPB, how TPB has addressed DMCA / Copyright notices, and why they are so wildly popular. Without the material that is stolen (theft by unauthorized duplication and distribution is still stealing, you might not like the idea, but it's the truth) TPB would be just another GPL distro list, perhaps popular in it's own way, but certainly not the wildly popular thing it is today.

Top 100? http://thepiratebay.org/top/all - almost everything on that list is a DVD rip or stolen content. Heck, slumdog millionaire is on there, but the DVD hasn't been released yet. Nice.

If 1 in 100 files was questionable, if even 2 in 100 was questionable you might have a point. But the top 100 files are probably 95% questionable or completely illegal distributions. Isn't this obvious enough for you?

You can put your hands over your eyes and go "lalalalalala" to try to ignore reality, but I just linked you to it. Please try to spend a minute to understand the concept.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Mar 2009 @ 7:59am

Re: Re: Theft
Brother, you have made a typo. It should be "R'Amen"
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Mar 2009 @ 8:08am

Re: Re: Re:
Tell me, what does a person who is stolen from lose?

He/She loses:
1. The physical item that was stolen;
2. The opportunity to sell that particular item.

On the other hand, when copyright is infringed upon, the copyright holder loses:

1. The opportunity to sell that song/movie/etc to the person who "stole" it.

Even this case is not absolute. Many people that I know will buy something after pirating it because they liked it.

All that the copyright holder loses in infringement is an opportunity; he/she would suffer the same loss if a competitor's product was chosen over his/hers. Infringement is not stealing.
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Anshar (profile), 3 Mar 2009 @ 8:57am

Re: Re: Re:
@ Weird Harold: What exactly does DMCA have to do with The Pirate Bay?
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Mike (profile), 3 Mar 2009 @ 9:41am

Re: Re: Re:
The issue is what is on TPB, how TPB has addressed DMCA / Copyright notices, and why they are so wildly popular.

The DMCA is an American statute. TPB is based in Sweden.

TPB obeys with the laws of Sweden.

The reason they are so popular is because of all the free publicity the MPAA got in having the US gov't try to force Sweden into shutting down TPB (seriously, their traffic doubled within weeks of getting "shut down").

For someone who keeps calling me ignorant... man... you take the cake.
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Newguy, 3 Mar 2009 @ 10:12am

Pirate bay will win
I believe the Piratebay will win. And then those suckers will do what? those suckers are so damn rich so let's share some part with the world. Of course they still can sell movies and songs to people who can buy but don't try to sell to me as I am not able to buy. So no matter what happens I wont buy anything
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Ed, 3 Mar 2009 @ 4:48pm

Advertising
The industry gets paid when it is broadcast over the airways. It gets paid by advertising. Books and magazines can be seen in the library. The Internet is a method of transporting and distributing the product just like the airways.

Instead of looking at p2p as the enemy the industry should realize that it is the cheapest way to get the product into the hands of the user cutting out the middle man. They don't have to pay for or maintain the distribution as they would with over the air transmission. There are no trucks etc. Software could be used to put area and personal preference and language advertising on the files before they can be used. All the money spent on lawyers could be spent on making the software for product distribution more crack proof. A time limit could be put on the product so that it would have to be reset with new advertising before continued use. A person who really doesn't want to bear the advertising can pay for the product if that is the preference. This way the industry gets paid for the products. Isn't money what this is all about?

Prohibition of alcohol in the US didn't stop people from drinking. It did stop the government from collecting liquor taxes. When Henry Ford saw his high taxes he changed his tune and supported the of ending prohibition of alcohol to lower his own taxes.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Mar 2009 @ 8:33am

Re: Advertising
That would require DRM, which would piss customers off, and be cracked. To create a truly un-crackable program, you must make one which can never be used.
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User Dude, 8 Mar 2009 @ 11:50am

Stuff is cheap!
I cant understand some people, they complain about the cost of video games , Cd's and DVD's but if you go back less than 10 years you were looking at about £25 for a decent new release album, £5 for a single, £40 for a Sega Genesis/Super Nintendo game and around £25 for a new release DVD...
Look at todays prices £12 for a new album, £25 for a new release game, £11.99 for a new release special edition dvd!
How cheap is CHEAP people?
I prices are driven too low, there will be no insentive to create and release new things, after all, nobody does anything for free!
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scott, 24 Mar 2009 @ 1:40am

one point
A real point, dark night 100 million or more income in the first weekend at the theaters. 3 million for sales in its blueray release in stores and its the most illegal downloaded movie. Is pirating really the problem or a source for control of what gets produced ?
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Jim Edwards, 17 Apr 2009 @ 2:54am

Reasoning FAIL
I can't believe the failed logic on these post. I hate hearing people repeatedly say, "Gosh I wouldn't steal your music if you just made it affordable, if I must choose between *Insert crappy band name*'s new cd or lunch then you've forced my hand.

Hold up... did you just compare EATING to listening to a crappy band play a song that sounds like every other song they've ever played.... LogicFAIL.

If you can't afford the CD, don't buy it! Don't steal it, just freakin don't listen to it! You want to see the music industry come to your house and throw music at you.... stop buying it, stop stealing it, and let them make a real decision about if they'd like to eat lunch....

But till then, stop the lame excuses for stealing. Just don't. Don't tell me you have to cause it's too much, don't tell me society cries out for you to make a stand. The world loves a martyr, but historically Martyrs pay a price... so what's the price your paying when you "Stick it to the man" with you 60,000 song collection. WOW WAY TO SUFFER TOUGH GUY!

We have bread an entire generation of people who think that just cause I can, means I should. And better yet that cause I can, it's morally ok.

PS *userdude* couldn't agree more! the time it takes to develop a video game for example makes the $49.95 I pay in the US so tight on the industry, often companies won't produce a decent game, for fear they won't break even....
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gents, 17 Apr 2009 @ 2:55am

The world is a changing place
With changing habits.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Apr 2009 @ 2:56am

Re:
Yes, yes, what about all those tapes I bought 20 years ago? They were convincing me that I buy right to hear the music, not the medium itself. Why can't I get this albums for free now since I have allready bought it? Why they would not replace my CD if it gets unplayable, since I bought the right to listen to music?
Doesn't "bought the right to listen to music" sound to weird by itself? Shouldn't some of the "artist" and entertainment inudstry pay me some fee because I have to listen to their stuff on public places even though it is obivously rubish?
We have a person who is compositor, judge and law writer who was working on copyright infringement law, and he is sitting in a comittee for conflict of interests?!? WTF
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gents, 17 Apr 2009 @ 3:01am

it's not the price...
Today there are so many things fighting for our attention. Trillion times more things to do.

We have the possibility to taste from all these things. Eventually we still spend money. That's the true value of money: buying what you really like. Even for me as a starting artist it is not harder then before. Au contraire! We have the freedom to share every creative thought. A public we never thought would see, hear, read or experience our work is now an audience.

Still people see all this as a thread. Maybe we should embrace these possibilities rather then fight them. These are old laws in a brave new world.

But maybe i'm just not cynical enough.
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gsdsd, 17 Apr 2009 @ 8:00am

Re:
Porn's not illegal, idiot.
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GEORGE, 27 Apr 2009 @ 1:39am

RE: GREEDY
Pirates will always be around and you will never get rid of them"EVER".. The companys don't like anyone to get it free.
They are to greedy' So who don't want to get it for free.
Even members of there own companys download it as well.
Trying to stop people from downloading will not happen.
And if they ever do. People will just go back to swap meets' Or trading at meets posted on the web sites.
So good luck you greedy fuckers.. YOU LOSE !!!!
AND I'M GLAD TOO!!! THE WEB WAS ALWAYS FREE...
FROM THE START IT WAS FREE AND TRADING SOFTWARE IS TOO.
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Ed, 19 Jun 2009 @ 7:09pm

society
It really saddens me but this is the way society has been for a very long time. In areas of poverty, crime rate is higher and mostly through desperation for survival. If people didn't have to steal, they wouldn't. However, rather than society asking WHY people have to turn to such measures and improving matters, it seems geared to punishing the people who are desperate. Technology drives things forward too quickly for anyone on average earnings to keep up. I bought hundreds of films on VHS which are now virtually obsolete. I had hundreds of Vinyl records. I had lots of megadrive, sega saturn, amiga, nintendo 64, playstation 1, xbox games and they are now all virtually useless. Buy a game for £50 and see what it's worth a year later. Maybe we should all just stop buying products and media and see how the large corporations complain then. Perhaps the whole human race should stop buying music and dvd films altogether so the ridiculous payouts to certain individuals can stop and be put to better use. How can millions of dollars payments be justified to an actor to appear in a film. It sickens me thinking about all the money they waste on people who don't really need it.
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che, 23 Jun 2009 @ 7:54pm

Re: Reasoning FAIL
I agree with the part about video game companies shutting down. I mean, im not telling everybody to go ahead and buy their games, but nowadays b/c the technology in which games are being run on is more advanced many companies cant afford to simply make any game they want. Lots of companies have shut down, or have been bought out by bigger companies simply because they cant make ends meet.

The problem here has many factors, blaming it all on illegal downloads is not a smart approach however. I think they should cut down on costs via other ways.

Downloading copyrighted material is far more easier and user friendly than trying to go to shopping center, walk around through the store, look for the video/music cd, wait in line, pay, walk back; or ppl sometimes download a program thats not as user friendly and easy to use as other P2P software apps.

Anyway times are changing, and the entertainment industries should try to alongside it, they must be smarter than the many p2p software in order to be able to compete with them. That was my ramble.
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Team-MA3 )*Warez*(, 11 Jul 2009 @ 12:19am

Warez!!
Warez ftw, Start being less greedy and the warez might stop. Team-MA3 Owns you all!!! Warez... Warezz.. Future!
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Bonsai, 14 Aug 2009 @ 7:37am

The P=Bay
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Bonsai56, 14 Aug 2009 @ 7:47am

The P=Bay
All this sounds like legal. I guess that's inportant. But wht I am thinking of is if I buy a house? Di I have to pay the seller everytime I want to change somethine?

And there inlies the problem I have with all these software companies. I buy their prduct, then I have to pay them again everytime I want to use it. THAT!!!! is piracy
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AmericanLawGamer1, 3 Sep 2009 @ 2:59am

The Sad Truth
Last Post!!! Yay! OK well if anyone makes it down this far past all the crazies I'd like to point out that the whole copyright thing in general sucks. Stuff like patents and copyrights used to expire QUICKLY like almost after it stopped "mass" sales (atleast in the US) the Internet used to not require an ISP and so on and then AT&T and some other companies realized they could make money by PAYING to put locks at points in the network so that they could CHARGE YOU for something you had for free before it was popular. Bittorents were a military developement (from what I've heard (aka that specific fact may not be true))that weren't frowned upon and were little known then ISPs started INVADING PRIVACY to save all information you send over a network and determine a)there's a torrent going on & b) Oh look its about such and such. I can't talk about the rest of the world but if its anything like the US it seems like Linux and other open source such as The Gimp might end up being locked off by big name companies like Adobe once they start losing profits and if they determine they can't make their flawed logic work that way they'll just attack what they can get away with.
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knowledge, 17 Sep 2009 @ 7:05pm

Re:
They profit off of advertisement from the broad number of users thepiratebay generates. The content is all user ripped, and user uploaded. What they are doing is not illegal at all.
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GoldenRod, 18 Oct 2009 @ 4:21pm

I entirely agree. If i go out and pay almost a freakin days pay worth of money on a damned CD, then when that cd won't play, then the greedy bastards should replace it free of charge, or else let me download my music as i please. Besides, when i go and download something, who are they to tell me that I don't own an original copy. For all they know i did, it just stopped working and i simply misplaced it, but i still owned it, THUS i have a legal right to own a DOWNLOADED copy! Correct? i think so, however i'm sure someone'll tell me off
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Patrick, 24 Sep 2010 @ 9:26pm

even though this is a dead thread im adding my 2 cents
I am a pirate, thus i have to right to talk in the defense of the entertainment industry. Entertainment falls into the category of a hobby. Entertainers should be paid based on performance not copy of that cd/movie/application. the cost of materiel to produce the cd/dvd is all i believe one should have to pay for not seeing it live. as far as applications, once development time is paid for the same principle applies. they make games to sell unlike the way it was meant to be Solly for ones entertainment. EA is good for placing entertainment value on there content but then gouge the price to cover a Mercedes after. Screw the legality of it or not. I live in the united states where whats legal over rides whats moral. its mans flaw to place restrictions on others. crime would reduce if there where no laws. no one would rape out of fear of being shot, and no one would kill out of the same reason. take to note one simple way to sum this up, screw you im gonna do what i believe in weather you like it or not.
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