The Pirate Bay Closing Arguments: Since We Can't Get The Real Infringers, We Should Blame Everything On These Guys
from the interesting-logic dept
As the closing arguments are being heard in The Pirate Bay lawsuit in Sweden, there seems to be some rather tortured reasoning by the entertainment industry that's quite troubling if the court accepts it. Representatives for the entertainment industry keep claiming that the claims of "losses" from the entertainment industry (including one guy who claimed that all of the industry's troubles could be pinned on "piracy") should be taken as fact, and the professor who discussed numerous studies showing this was untrue shouldn't be listened to. But the most troubling of all may be this:The police can't possibly go after all TPB's users and the defendants are therefore responsible for the whole damage claim, he argued, adding that they are free to claim money from their users.So, because they are too incompetent to deal with the actual problem, they should put all of the blame on the four guys they happened to round up. Doesn't anyone realize how ridiculous a precedent that would set? There's also the claim that damages should cover "the damage in goodwill" to the entertainment industry. Has it not occurred to them that the damage in goodwill wasn't from The Pirate Bay, but the industry's idiotic response to services like The Pirate Bay? Hopefully the court sees through such tortured reasoning.
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Filed Under: closing arguments, liability, sweden, trial
Companies: the pirate bay
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Put these 4 guys out of business and clear the way for 8 more
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lower cost = more business
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Re: lower cost = more business
EVERY study ever done not paid for by the music industry shows that lower prices results in higher sales, usually MUCH higher, but they're too stupid to take that business model and run with it, instead insisting that the world remake itself to keep their old one profitable.
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I agree with lane
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Re: I agree with lane
I agree...if you're even considering Linkin Park over a ham sandwich, there's DEFINITELY a problem (though not with the music industry).
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Re: Re: I agree with lane
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Re: Re: I agree with lane
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High Priced BS Rock on P2P
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Re: High Priced BS Rock on P2P
Saying that piracy is good because it helps uneducated, stupid unemployed gamers isn't going to win you any praise.
If you can't afford 50-60 dollar games a month, maybe you should consider getting a job, even a restaurant job, or consider playing your older games again. You make it sound like you NEED a new game every month.
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Re: Re: High Priced BS Rock on P2P
Also, Sean, not all gamers are uneducated and unemployed. In fact it's quite the opposite. But it doesn't change the fact that the prices of games are overinflated. Since almost all console games are about 50-60 bucks, even those who have jobs can't afford to pay that much in this economy.
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Re: High Priced BS Rock on P2P
...
Congratulations, you've left me completely speechless.
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Re: Re: High Priced BS Rock on P2P
GOOD FREAKN LUCK
because.. lets face it - you are going to need it. and a lot of it to stop piracy. so shame. SHAME. you greedy a$$holez
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Software
Many claim $700-$1000 for Adobe Photoshop is paying for quality and such, but imagine how many people pirate Photoshop, thus the one person buying a $1000 copy is making up for the 10-20 people who stole it.
Now imagine you could get it for $200. I'll bet money more people would buy it legally.
Same deal for so much software out there.
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Re: Software
Adobe isn't stupid. They realize that if people borrow a copy and like the product in their own time, that they will use it at work (and pay for the liscense at work). There is a reason they don't go after pirates and that is simply the fact that piracy HELPS them be profitable.
Crazy, I know.
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Re: Software
If they charge less, more people will purchase it. Period. They may actually make more money due to the increased volume. The assumption that those extra people who purchased Photoshop would have otherwise stolen it, is wrong. There aren't just TWO choices - pay for Photoshop or pirate it. People have many other choices. The can just not buy anything. They can buy Elements. They can purchase another commercial program that does many of the same things, or use The Gimp, or some other open source program.
Companies would like you and everyone else to think that every pirated copy is a lost sale, but that is just not the case.
Yes, pirating is wrong. Yes, software is expensive to create. But I guarantee that the cost of a legitimate copy of Photoshop is NOT affected by pirating. It costs $1000 because enough people/companies are willing to pay that amount per copy.
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Seen this argument before
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can police break a law to enforce a law if not winmx could become the best of the pirate world since winmx was officially closed down long ago. it a lil slow but could make a huge comeback the more pirates go underground
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Am I entitled to ask for compensation from the music industry for pushing compact cassettes at me even though they knew that they would stretch and degrade???
Viva pirate bay!!!
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Re:
I refuse to "double-dip" on entertainment. If I have a movie on VHS, I won't, except for a few notable exceptions, purchase it again on DVD. VHS tapes were no cheaper than DVD, so why should I pay again just because the technology changed? I won't. I will find somewhere to download the DVD or a friend to copy it from. I have already paid the "royalty" portion of owning that movie. I never started collecting music until CDs, so I haven't had that problem with music, but I would feel the same way.
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Re:
Doesn't "bought the right to listen to music" sound to weird by itself? Shouldn't some of the "artist" and entertainment inudstry pay me some fee because I have to listen to their stuff on public places even though it is obivously rubish?
We have a person who is compositor, judge and law writer who was working on copyright infringement law, and he is sitting in a comittee for conflict of interests?!? WTF
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Re:
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I hope the Pirate Bay wins
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NEXT UP
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re: I hope the Pirate Bay wins
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Re: re: I hope the Pirate Bay wins
Even then really, you don't have to, but if you don't, you will lose it.
Content producers have every right to not enforce the stupid copyright laws we have here in the US. In most cases it is in their best interest not to enforce them (if it is their fans spreading their work).
Even with trademark, they are stretching it these days. Trademark was made to prevent consumer confusion. However, we are seeing tons of stupid court cases these days where it really has absolutely nothing to do with consumer confusion (See: Monster cables).
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Re: re: I hope the Pirate Bay wins
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Re: re: I hope the Pirate Bay wins
This is false when it comes to copyright.
It's also not quite true (but closer to true) when it comes to trademark.
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RD's ass-backwards Precident (sic)
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These guys may sound rude for american lawyer who think US jurisdiction applies worldwide. But its about truth should win.
If you go into partnerships with the US you are dependend, just a small tool in their hands they will always use you press all the money out of you. People should learn who made the worlds economy to collapse, speculating on food prices.
See all this prime ministers kissing ass in Washington. Now its time to go for new partnerships with countries other than the so called civilized countries feeding the world with wars. India and China really need help but hve ressources. See how Africa profits from partnerships with China. First time ever they feel treated like a real partner. What America has changed? Banana Republics will remain always banana republics, poor and hopeless. Thats how they are used to treat business partners in a puppet theatre.
Dont expect fairness or truth from Americas music industry. All they want is to remain in power and to make the most money out of it.
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CD business had fraud in the past
I don't use pirate bay or P2P for 'piracy' of music/movies. I gave e'm up once the DMCA became law. But given their past and present actions - I have no sympathy for 'em.
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Tell me again why piracy is so rampant?
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Re: Theft
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Re: Re: Theft
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Re: Re: Theft
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So-called 'losses'
My main point of contention with the entertainment industry's arguments is their claim that every download is a lost sale.
I disagree. Reality's post regarding Photoshop makes an outstanding example. Who really thinks that everyone who pirates photoshop would go out and pay $1000 for it if pirating it were (for whatever reason) not an option? Not many, to be sure.
There are products out there which are worth their prices and there are those which are not. Those which are not worth their prices might be worth a lower price but unless manufacturers and/or vendors drop the "pay this price or don't buy it all" attitude and let the market set a fair price, paying that lower price can't happen. The exception is the used market but then again, the entertainment industry seems to put that on par with piracy anyway.
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Re: So-called 'losses'
Quite. DRM on computer games these days has killed whatever used computer game industry existed. They're using technology to escape the first sale doctrine because they can't get Congress to remove it.
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Tell the truth: if the only stuff on Pirate Bay was there entirely legally, would any of you actually visit? Think about it, no DVD rips, no software with keygens, no ripped CDs, no Pr0n. What would be left would be nothing more than a tucows file list.
They know what is on their site (even as they tell little white lies in court about it) and pile the cash up offshore. If you don't think they are profiting from it, well, then you might want to watch out for the tooth fairy trying to rip your teeth out tonight when you sleep.
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Re:
Actually, quite a bit more. It's why many artists actively promote their music via the Pirate Bay. Why should they be barred from doing so, just because some others misuse it?
And based on your reasoning, Google is equally a "criminal facilitation system."
They don't actually rip the stuff off, but they profit grandly from the theft.
You might want to look up the definition of "theft" and then come back and admit you are wrong yet again. There is no theft at all going on here. There may be infringement, but it's not theft.
Tell the truth: if the only stuff on Pirate Bay was there entirely legally, would any of you actually visit?
I don't visit it now, so I'm not sure what difference that would make.
What would be left would be nothing more than a tucows file list.
Well, and music from the many artists who purposely use it for distribution. Lots of Linux distros use it as well. Plenty of people use it for legit purposes. What do you have against them?
If you don't think they are profiting from it
First of all, even if we take all you've said as given, and that they are profiting from illegal activity on the site, again, you still wouldn't have a case, because they are the tool provider and are not infringing on any actual copyrights themselves.
It must be fun being totally ignorant of liability rules.
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Re: Re:
Don't confuse TPB with P2P - bit torrent ISN'T TPB. Notice I don't say anything against P2P file transfers. Moving Linux distros and freeware software and GPL products including music isn't the issue. P2P isn't the issue.
The issue is what is on TPB, how TPB has addressed DMCA / Copyright notices, and why they are so wildly popular. Without the material that is stolen (theft by unauthorized duplication and distribution is still stealing, you might not like the idea, but it's the truth) TPB would be just another GPL distro list, perhaps popular in it's own way, but certainly not the wildly popular thing it is today.
Top 100? http://thepiratebay.org/top/all - almost everything on that list is a DVD rip or stolen content. Heck, slumdog millionaire is on there, but the DVD hasn't been released yet. Nice.
If 1 in 100 files was questionable, if even 2 in 100 was questionable you might have a point. But the top 100 files are probably 95% questionable or completely illegal distributions. Isn't this obvious enough for you?
You can put your hands over your eyes and go "lalalalalala" to try to ignore reality, but I just linked you to it. Please try to spend a minute to understand the concept.
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Re: Re: Re:
He/She loses:
1. The physical item that was stolen;
2. The opportunity to sell that particular item.
On the other hand, when copyright is infringed upon, the copyright holder loses:
1. The opportunity to sell that song/movie/etc to the person who "stole" it.
Even this case is not absolute. Many people that I know will buy something after pirating it because they liked it.
All that the copyright holder loses in infringement is an opportunity; he/she would suffer the same loss if a competitor's product was chosen over his/hers. Infringement is not stealing.
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The DMCA is an American statute. TPB is based in Sweden.
TPB obeys with the laws of Sweden.
The reason they are so popular is because of all the free publicity the MPAA got in having the US gov't try to force Sweden into shutting down TPB (seriously, their traffic doubled within weeks of getting "shut down").
For someone who keeps calling me ignorant... man... you take the cake.
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Re: Weird Harold
I totally disagree with your post, if the only content on TPB was General Licensed material the site would still host a large following.
The Bittorrent system is an amazing way to distribute information. Simply because the entertainment industry has failed to utilize the into a system that can directly benefit content authors opposed to their middle men doesn't mean the site craters should be punished.
Its been stated in this thread that if the four of them get taken out eight more will spring up (its the system, stupid). Oh and on that note, the craters have all right to make money off of there site because they take the time to maintain and update the site. Simple ad revenue and donations are not ill gotten gains.
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Re:
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Ridiculous
Get with the program people! We're in a depression! And if people weren't pirating media, there would still be no increase in profits for the media industries - normal people don't have $15.00 for music or $8,000 for software.
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Your local roadmap maker is also a criminal facilitation system, nothing more and nothing less. He doesn't actually rape and plunder but he profits enourmously from it.
You see, many so called "criminal" bikers are looking for the local hells angels club. They buy roadmaps to find it.
Tell the truth: if only the stuff on the roadmap was entirely legally, would any of the bikers actually take a roadmap ?
Think about it, no angelhome or policestation or banks or hangouts on the map. What would be left would be nothing more than a big collection of white spots.
The roadmap makers KNOW what is on their map (even if they would never admit to have heard of hells angels) and pile their cash up offshore.
If you think that this is far fetched....do you have any idea then what a torrent actually is ??
In the future: Would you be rewarded...or rather arrested...for just pointing out where the hells angels live ?
torrents, read about it and educate yourself.
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Your local roadmap maker is also a criminal facilitation system, nothing more and nothing less. He doesn't actually rape and plunder but he profits enourmously from it.
You see, many so called "criminal" bikers are looking for the local hells angels club. They buy roadmaps to find it.
Tell the truth: if only the stuff on the roadmap was entirely legally, would any of the bikers actually take a roadmap ?
Think about it, no angelhome or policestation or banks or hangouts on the map. What would be left would be nothing more than a big collection of white spots.
The roadmap makers KNOW what is on their map (even if they would never admit to have heard of hells angels) and pile their cash up offshore.
If you think that this is far fetched....do you have any idea then what a torrent actually is ??
In the future: Would you be rewarded...or rather arrested...for just pointing out where the hells angels live ?
torrents, read about it and educate yourself.
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Pirate Bay Trial CARTOON
http://www.pcdisorder.com/2009/03/pirate-bay-trial-almost-over-before-it.html
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The way I see it, if TPB and other P2P sites go down, so will the music industry 'coz noones gonna listen to their tracks unless its free (or dirt cheap)...
and P2P is the only solution it seems right now.
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TPB
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Stop Piracy?
But before that, SUE them for every single cents they have for doing a DoS Attack on the Pirate Bay Website.
if terrorist want a target that will earn them sympathy worldwide, just blowup the RIAA/MPAA headquarter since there is no sign of human life, nothing will be miss.
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TPB
LONG LIVE PIRATE BAY!!!!
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The Pirate Bay
Shouldn't the entertainment industry be keeping its own house in order and making every reasonable effort to ensure that the movies don't end up there in the first place?
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WTF!!!
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money-makers
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TPB and IPRED
MAFIAAs are going down the drain sooner or later, their biz model is not sustainable. If those lads are convicted, they will be turned into martyrs.
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Pirate bay will win
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Advertising
Instead of looking at p2p as the enemy the industry should realize that it is the cheapest way to get the product into the hands of the user cutting out the middle man. They don't have to pay for or maintain the distribution as they would with over the air transmission. There are no trucks etc. Software could be used to put area and personal preference and language advertising on the files before they can be used. All the money spent on lawyers could be spent on making the software for product distribution more crack proof. A time limit could be put on the product so that it would have to be reset with new advertising before continued use. A person who really doesn't want to bear the advertising can pay for the product if that is the preference. This way the industry gets paid for the products. Isn't money what this is all about?
Prohibition of alcohol in the US didn't stop people from drinking. It did stop the government from collecting liquor taxes. When Henry Ford saw his high taxes he changed his tune and supported the of ending prohibition of alcohol to lower his own taxes.
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Re: Advertising
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Stuff is cheap!
Look at todays prices £12 for a new album, £25 for a new release game, £11.99 for a new release special edition dvd!
How cheap is CHEAP people?
I prices are driven too low, there will be no insentive to create and release new things, after all, nobody does anything for free!
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one point
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Reasoning FAIL
Hold up... did you just compare EATING to listening to a crappy band play a song that sounds like every other song they've ever played.... LogicFAIL.
If you can't afford the CD, don't buy it! Don't steal it, just freakin don't listen to it! You want to see the music industry come to your house and throw music at you.... stop buying it, stop stealing it, and let them make a real decision about if they'd like to eat lunch....
But till then, stop the lame excuses for stealing. Just don't. Don't tell me you have to cause it's too much, don't tell me society cries out for you to make a stand. The world loves a martyr, but historically Martyrs pay a price... so what's the price your paying when you "Stick it to the man" with you 60,000 song collection. WOW WAY TO SUFFER TOUGH GUY!
We have bread an entire generation of people who think that just cause I can, means I should. And better yet that cause I can, it's morally ok.
PS *userdude* couldn't agree more! the time it takes to develop a video game for example makes the $49.95 I pay in the US so tight on the industry, often companies won't produce a decent game, for fear they won't break even....
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Re: Reasoning FAIL
The problem here has many factors, blaming it all on illegal downloads is not a smart approach however. I think they should cut down on costs via other ways.
Downloading copyrighted material is far more easier and user friendly than trying to go to shopping center, walk around through the store, look for the video/music cd, wait in line, pay, walk back; or ppl sometimes download a program thats not as user friendly and easy to use as other P2P software apps.
Anyway times are changing, and the entertainment industries should try to alongside it, they must be smarter than the many p2p software in order to be able to compete with them. That was my ramble.
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The world is a changing place
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it's not the price...
We have the possibility to taste from all these things. Eventually we still spend money. That's the true value of money: buying what you really like. Even for me as a starting artist it is not harder then before. Au contraire! We have the freedom to share every creative thought. A public we never thought would see, hear, read or experience our work is now an audience.
Still people see all this as a thread. Maybe we should embrace these possibilities rather then fight them. These are old laws in a brave new world.
But maybe i'm just not cynical enough.
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RE: GREEDY
They are to greedy' So who don't want to get it for free.
Even members of there own companys download it as well.
Trying to stop people from downloading will not happen.
And if they ever do. People will just go back to swap meets' Or trading at meets posted on the web sites.
So good luck you greedy fuckers.. YOU LOSE !!!!
AND I'M GLAD TOO!!! THE WEB WAS ALWAYS FREE...
FROM THE START IT WAS FREE AND TRADING SOFTWARE IS TOO.
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society
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Warez!!
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The P=Bay
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The P=Bay
And there inlies the problem I have with all these software companies. I buy their prduct, then I have to pay them again everytime I want to use it. THAT!!!! is piracy
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The Sad Truth
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even though this is a dead thread im adding my 2 cents
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