Harlan Ellison Sues Again
from the it's-all-about-the-money dept
Harlan Ellison may be a well-respected writer, but he's got something of a history of threatening and/or suing anyone who he believes is unfairly profiting off of "his" works. You may recall a while back that he mistakenly sued AOL when he discovered that fans of his (not that he'd call them fans) had posted some of his writings to Usenet. Yes, to Usenet. Not to any AOL property, but to Usenet. However, since he'd discovered it via AOL, somehow they were to blame... so he sued. And a court quickly explained to Mr. Ellison the DMCA's safe harbors and the fact that Usenet isn't AOL. Ellison appealed... and, amazingly, AOL eventually settled just to make him go away, knowing that even though the courts would reject such cases under DMCA safe harbors (and common sense), it was cheaper to just pay up.This wasn't just a one-off misunderstanding. Ellison has a long history of being economically and technologically illiterate about these sorts of things, as was made clear in this video that made the rounds a few years back:
Either way, that's all prologue to the news that Ellison is suing yet again. This time, he's suing Paramount Pictures and the Writers Guild because he wrote an episode of Star Trek that aired in 1967, and Paramount hasn't paid him for certain Star Trek books that include elements from that show or other merchandise like a (not making this up) talking Christmas tree ornament. He's suing the Writers Guild because it apparently told him that he was nuts and they weren't going to take on Paramount over this issue (he's accusing the Guild of too narrowly interpreting its contract).
And, in classic Ellison fashion, his statement on the matter is all about the money:
It ain't about the 'principle,' friend, its (sic) about the MONEY! Pay Me! Am I doing this for other writers, for Mom (still dead), and apple pie? Hell no! I'm doing it for the 35-year-long disrespect and the money!Given these antics and ridiculousness, you have to wonder just how many folks won't be hiring Ellison in the future, knowing he's likely to blow up and potentially sue them, as well. You also should wonder how much "money" he's missing out on from folks like me who will never buy any of his works. If it's "all about the money" perhaps someone who writes sci-fi like Ellison can think about the future a little bit, and how many opportunities he kills off by demanding every penny today at the expense of dollars tomorrow.
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Filed Under: harlan ellison, lawsuits, money
Companies: paramount, writers guild
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Holly crap
You know what. Every time this asshole goes to the doctors office he better be paying me. I built that network and I should be payed for the work I did three years ago.
What has he done recently so I can not go get it?
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Asshat
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Harlan is right and you are wrong
I am a writer. I make these stories, I craft them carefully and I sell them. I get paid for my stories. I also get paid is someone reprints my stories.
So if someone steals one of my stories and posts it somewhere where anyone can read it for free, this cuts into my personal profits and hinders the way I make a living.
If the big studios are justified in applying draconian measures to stop the pirating of their works (TV shows and movies showing up on Youtube, for instance) then why can a writer not similarly stand up for his rights to be acknowledged as the sole owner of his own intellectual property.
Harlan is hitting the studios with logic they understand.
The writer's guild did not think that Harlan was nuts. They acknowledged that he was correct, that the original contracts did guarantee him the right to participate in Paramount's profits when they were earned through the use of his work. Paramount did not live up to their own contract and the writer's guild, though they knew that Harlan was in the right, did nothing to stand up for one of their members. Harlan is reluctantly suing his own guild for failing to go to bat for one of their members.
Creative work is different from other work, but it is work and the creator of that work is due something, especially when what he has made helps a big corporation get fat and rich
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Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
Why do you think that? What makes what you do different from what I do? Or what tens of thousands of other people do? Why should you get paid IN PERPETUITY for something, when I only get a measly paycheck? Do you somehow think you're better than me, simply because you chose to be a writer (and not a very good one, I might add)?
Exactly what makes you so fucking special?
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Re: Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
Why should you get paid in perpetuity for your "creative work" when others, like myself, only get a paycheck for ours?
If you're so creative and intelligent then you should have no problems explaining. Otherwise, you're trollin'
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
On a side note, all the talented musicians I know do it because they love it. They'd do it regardless of making money. I personally have never respected any so called artist who only does it for the money. That's the kind of "artist" who comes up with crap like Hair Bands and Boy Bands. And episodes of Star Trek. Yeck.
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Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
And I'm still saying, if he wants payed for decorations based on a show that he douse not hold the rights to (douse he even hold the rights to the part of the one episode he wrote?) than I want him to pay me every time he goes to the doctors office. Electronic Medical Records programs are a pain in the ass. It takes some real creative work to get that to run on each individual network to the satisfaction of every single doctor.
Even if he douse have a valid claim, he's still an ass by talking that way in that video.
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Re: Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
For Harlan, flipping out is SOP. As for the Christmas decoration, it depends on what his contract said: if he was entitled to a royalty for merchandise based on a Star Trek episode he wrote, then he should have been paid. That part is not a copyright issue, but a contract issue.
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Re: Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
# put out, as of a candle or a light; "Douse the lights"
# wet thoroughly
# dip: dip into a liquid; "He dipped into the pool"
does:
# 3rd-person form of the verb "do"
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Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
Why shouldn't he get paid for this?
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Re: Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
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Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
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Re: Harlan is right and you are wrong
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@ 3.
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I don't think he's too concerned about the potential in the long run...looks like he could croak any day now.
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Harlan is just being Harlan
How "well-respected" Harlan is, is an open question. But anyone who hires him knows exactly what they're getting.
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Re: Harlan is just being Harlan
He's damn good. Damn prolific. And a god-damned curmudgen to the end. It could be worse, he could have drifted off into Andy Rooney territory.
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erm, no
Um....no. Colossal FAIL.
Copying is not stealing, its infringement. Do you only have ONE COPY of the work in question? Did they DEPRIVE you of that ONLY COPY? No? Then its not stealing. Doing something against the wishes of the copyright holder is infringement, and its not a crime.
Lets repeat that again for the 'tards out there and those with below-average comprehension skills:
COPYING A WORK IS INFRINGEMENT UNDER THE LAW AND IS NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENSE. IT IS NOT STEALING AS THE AUTHOR IS NOT DEPRIVED OF HIS PROPERTY.
As to the other part, about how posting something of yours that might find A BIGGER AUDIENCE by making it "free" cutting into your profits, well, you simply have a bad business model then and havent figured out how to leverage a MASSIVE FREE AUDIENCE interaction to sell your product.
Perhaps if the text of your book were available "free" online, more people would see it than otherwise would, and some of them would then like to purchase the actual book, say a hardcover that sells for $25. Or a book-on-tape. Or a paperback. Or they read Book 1 for free and then BUY the others in the series.
If you havent thought about it this way or figured out a way to leverage the "Free" nature of the internet, then maybe you need to reconsider your career path. The world needs ditch diggers too.
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Re: erm, no
Well then how come the studios aren't happy when someone copies their movies and puts them up on the internet? Maybe they should be thankful that even more people get to see their movies other than those of us who paid money to..
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Re: Re: erm, no
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What I want to know is...
Also, since I'm not a fan of Ellision, can someone here tell me if his writing is distinguishable from his other excretory activities?
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Re: What I want to know is...
His stories are generally pretty good- some are better than others. I don't know if he has actually produced anything in years. He was supposed to write an episode of B5 that never materialized.
Harlan is a force of nature and I disagree with him as much as I agree with him. If he can get money out Paramount for this more power to him.
I do love the settlement he got from MARVEL when they ripped off a Twilight Zone he wrote as the plot and a shot by shot lift for an issue of the Hulk. MARVEL now is required to send him one of everything they produce.
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Re: What I want to know is...
Yes, he's justly renowned for his writing. He's got 8 Hugo Awards and been named a SFWA Grand Master, and it's hard to find anyone who thinks he doesn't deserve all of that. That's why he's still around, why people still listen to him, why he still gets work. But, as noted elsewhere, his personality has a reputation too.
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Re: Re: What I want to know is...
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An Ass but Not Wrong
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Re: An Ass but Not Wrong
He even said himself that everyone else was doing it for free. He told the lady on the phone to go screw herself and she hung up. Then he seemed surprised that she never called back. He was already payed for the commentary and he wanted to get payed again.
It's like a photographer taking a picture of a wedding and then bitching that the pictures were put up on flicker. He was payed to be a wedding photographer but he still wants to get payed every time the pictures are used.
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Re: Re: An Ass but Not Wrong
And if the bride and groom didn't get reproduction rights to the photographs as part of their contract with the wedding photographer, then the photographer would be within his rights to demand either payment or the removal of the photos from Flckr.
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Re: Re: An Ass but Not Wrong
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Wow! What's piss going for these days?
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Re: Wow! What's piss going for these days?
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Harlan being Harlan
That said, I have a hard time trying to put the comments of someone like Harlan into a "copyfight" context. He's been in the entertainment business for a long time, and he knows that no matter what contracts he signs he's going to end up being ripped off, because that's how the game is played.
His way is to take it back to them with bare knuckles every time. Asking for far more than he "deserves" is how he gets what he believes he's justly owed.
He doesn't care about the technology because he doesn't need to. He a scrapper and a survivor who succeeded by fighting every step of the way while many of his peers ended up destitute or worse.
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Yeah, that will end well.
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Re:
So, from this point forward, Yo's Plumbing Service is instituting a compulsory faucet usage license. Every time you turn on your sink, we will expect a "small" royalty. It is only fair for the effort we put into fixing your sink eight years ago. Please note that this license is limited and does not exempt you from liability for infringement should we determine that you are using your water for an unapproved use, or sharing it with others in an act of "public water consumption."
Of course, any inventions aided or inspired by the use of your running water will be the sole intellectual property of Yo's Plumbing Service, and we will aggressively collect any royalties due.
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Re:
you can not equate real things to someone photocopying, scanning, whatever your work.
Mr Plumber can only be at one place working on one thing at one time.
However if pirate x copies your work that does not affect you doing business with citizen y.
You can easily argue both are wrong but that does not make them the same. It is wrong to cheat and it is wrong to kill but would you say that killing someone is the same as cheating?
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Harlan Ellison's Rep
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What a small minded little cretin he is
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Yes!
Way to go, NOW you are getting it!
Say it with me now....the more people that know your work, THE MORE POTENTIAL PEOPLE YOU CAN SELL YOUR STUFF TO!
Also, Dark Knight made more money than any movie in history (except Titanic) and was heavily downloaded at the same time. This it not an issue of "Free" its an issue of LEVERAGING "free" to make MORE.
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Case in point: Ellison sued the makers of The Terminator because they supposedly borrowed from his Outer Limits scripts. Now, I haven't seen the episodes in question so i don't know what the similarities are. Unless someone else can correct me, I seem to remember that they were also rather generic (e.g. soldier sent back in time to protect the future, etc.). Even if I'm wrong, many of the things that made Cameron's first film a success had absolutely nothing to do with Ellison - Schwarzenegger's breakout performance, Stan Winston's fantastic designs, Cameron's ability to make the movie look much bigger than its moderate budget, etc.
Because of Ellsion's reaction, I've not read any of his work. I'm not a massive sci-fi fan (horror's more my genre). Maybe I'll pick up some of his work in the 10p bargain bin for old, worn books at my local second-hand book store but otherwise I'm not really interested. It helps that I'm not, say, interested in picking up a season of Star Trek he worked on, but he's not going to get a penny of my money, ever. I'd rather give my money to someone who's interested in creating something new rather than whoring off works he did 40 years ago.
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You can count me among those people. I've had his works (especially Ender's Game) recommended to me more times than I know. But I refuse to read even a borrowed copy because the guy is such a complete ass.
On the other hand, I've downloaded and read several works by Cory Doctorow and even purchased the ones I really liked to support him. Now there's a guy who "gets it".
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You work at McDonalds. You come up with a clever way to sell a Quarter-Pounder. McDs thinks this is great! They record you making the sale, fire you and use the recording to sell the QP to every customer. Now you were paid for a days work but McDs continues to profit off of your efforts but in millions. If they had let you continue working, they would have made the money but would have been required to pay your days wage. But you were fired.
At the end of a performance, all of the artists and techs are in effect fired. But the film/record/book publisher continues to sell your work at a large profit (one hopes). Isn't it logical that each time they sell your work, you should be compensated? To what degree is up to you.
As we fight for and develop our personal reputation (hopefully based on skill and character) we constantly battle the new guy who will do it cheaper to get in the door. Normal, this is part of the process as long as it does not devalue the art form (meaning, we still know the difference between the pro and the amateur). If the artform is devalued, the pro becomes obsolete and the amateur still doesn't make any money and never will.
Nothing worth having is truly free! Stop kidding yourselves. If art doesn't cost money then how do you judge its value? By the number of people who want it? Okay so if everyone believes the artist is great but nobody pays him/her then the artist is effectively nothing. You cannot produce if you have no money.
Just because record/film/television companies are poorly managed does not mean art is free.
Stop trying to make art free!!!!
Jimmy
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Re:
That's EXACTLY how it works for people who work for large corporations. If I work for MacDonalds, and come up with a great idea for selling more burgers, then that idea belongs to MacDonalds, and yes, they get to keep using that idea in perpetuity. Or, to provide a more practical example, if I work for a manufacturing firm, and I devise a more cost effective way to manufacture one of our line of widgets, the patent (or the copyright, if it's a paper that would be published) belongs to my firm. That's the terms of employment, and if I don't like it because I think it's unfair, too bad. I can go find employment somewhere else. But good luck trying to find a company that won't make you sign a document stating that they own whatever you invent while collecting a paycheck from them!
Really, the naivete of you creative types about the real world the rest of us live in is enormous.
I've done some creative writing, and yes, it is hard. Pulling characters out of your ass, and devising plots out of thin air isn't very easy at all. But I would not say that it's harder than my day job working for The Man.
So you can see why you la-di-da creative types whining about residuals don't exactly get a lot of sympathy from the rest of us wage slaves.
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Re: Re:
If you're a studio or producer and don't want to pay residuals, then don't include them in the contracts with the people you employ. You probably won't be able to hire any union or guild members, but that's your business.
Same goes for writers: royalties are a contractual issue between a writer and a publisher. If the contract calls for royalties to be paid, it doesn't matter if the content is 50 years old: if the publisher is still selling it and earning revenue, the writer should get paid.
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Pick a scenario that might possibly exist in the real world, and your argument makes more sense. Then again, your argument is so wrong-headed that I don't think that would help.
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You create/improve something for your employer it is theirs.
You only get paid for your time and if you have a good employer you MIGHT get a bonus of some type for helping out the company. However, you will not get paid every time your employer makes money off of what you did.
Also, you can not take your work with you to the next employer. The work came while they were paying you for your time so they own the product of that payment.
This is how the real world works. You do a job you get paid for it then. You do not get paid for some work you did even a week ago let alone years ago like musicians and writers and the like.
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TIA
As for your ad hominem attack, Ellison is one of the most highly awarded and prolific short story writers and essayists in America, but doesn't need me to defend him. Incidentally, he seldom writes actual science fiction. Is he litigious, obnoxious and frequently unplesant, even in social situations? Yes. But since when is "demanding every penny" one is owed a bad thing?
How about I take this insipid article and include it in my next bestseller, and get rich? That's ok with you, isn't it? You won't expect a cut will you? After all, it wouldn't be "work for free," since the article is already written. Thanks.
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Re: TIA
From one writer to another, I think you need to edit your copy a little.
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Re: TIA
No, that's not correct. They make a living by producing a product AND THEN employing a business model that works in the market.
If the artist isn't paid when his work is used, the artist loses money, and has every right to seek compensation.
Also incorrect. As we've been showing for over a decade, smart artists have learned how to give away certain works for free to make much more money in the long run. There is no "loss."
How hard is that to understand?
I understand just fine.
As for your ad hominem attack, Ellison is one of the most highly awarded and prolific short story writers and essayists in America,
Which ad hominem would that be? I said that he's a well-respected writer? That's an ad-hominem?
But since when is "demanding every penny" one is owed a bad thing?
When it harms your ability to make money.
How about I take this insipid article and include it in my next bestseller, and get rich? That's ok with you, isn't it? You won't expect a cut will you? After all, it wouldn't be "work for free," since the article is already written. Thanks.
Yes, as we've said 1000 times already, that would be great, and no we don't expect a cut. Please go ahead and use it!
Thanks for appreciating our work so much that you would like to make use of it!
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Re: TIA
He surely is an excellent contorsionist, judging by the way he licks his own asshole.
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Doesn't want to "work for free" but wants a DVD for free!
He wants everyone to pay him for everything remotely related to things he worked on (like the Christmas tree), but then wants people to send *him* their work for free!
Quick! Somebody put Harlan Ellison's photo on the wikipedia entry for Hypocrite!
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Re: Doesn't want to "work for free" but wants a DVD for free!
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I'm a journalist I don't get paid when the AP uses my story but I can't and won't sue. You know why because I didn't have a good enough contract and didn't have a union to watch my back and get me More money.
Nobody works for free. Well, nobody with any sense works for free.
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Pay Me - or i'll throw a fit
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People who need money are stoopit or something
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Re: People who need money are stoopit or something
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It's very simple...
Like it or not, it's that simple.
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But it's OK to screw writers and other creative types
You have no appreciation for the anger that a writer feels when he sees his work sold and resold IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW AND HIS CONTRACT by greedy corporations who steal because they can get away with it. I have watched my work be stolen - yes it theft even if you don't think so - and profited from by the New York Newsday, Newark Star Ledger, Chicago Tribune, Cigar Aficionado Magazine, Business News NJ Magazine, just to name a few of the greedy bastards.
I doubt that a single one of you who are so nasty on this subject have ever done a single creative thing in your life.
You offer ridiculous excuses for your empty ideas. Just because some writers or singers or musicians make money by using giveaways as promotions, it does not follow that someone who chooses to be be paid should therefore start allowing other people to profit from his work without compensation or even the courtesy of asking for permission.
Expecting income from the use of past work is not really all that different from a landlord expecting rent. No one is forcing anyone to use the creative work or to live in a certain building. But if you do, you pay.
If you don't want to pay, go find someone willing to give his work away or a landlord who will let you build on his land and rent out the building. You may have to read or listen to crap. The open land you build on may be a cesspool. But hey, it's free.
Of course, you may discover that there are no books worth reading on your shelf or magazines at the dentist. The movies you get for free may be eye-junk. The free house you live in may lack a bathroom or electricity.
But if you want to steal my work, the bread off my table, I'll fight you. And any sensible landlord will evict a deadbeat.
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Re: But it's OK to screw writers and other creative types
Many of the people who have posted have done creative things.
Hell, I was in the movie Volcano, I'm on screen for a few minutes and you even get to hear me moan in pain. I only worked one day on that film, but I had my own dressing room in a trailer, was treated like royalty by the crew, and got paid fairly well. But.., I never received one royalty payment. Didn't even get my name in the credits. Why, because I got screwed in my SAG contract. Could I have filed a complaint with SAG, and probably gotten paid and some royalties, maybe even gotten my name in the credits of the movie? Probably. Did I do it? Nope. Why? Because of the point Mike was making with this post. I was fairly new to Hollywood, I was just starting to network, and I didn't want to soil a reputation that was just getting started.
Oh, and guess what? I did a whole lot of work on film crews, actually more than I did acting. I have my name in the credits for a number of movies and TV shows, some you've probably seen. But, get what, MOST of the crew don't get royalty checks on film and TV. They get an honest days pay for an honest days work. I can't stand people like you and Harlan Ellison, and it's the reason I'm no longer in the entertainment industry.
I was a member of SAG and AFTRA back in the '90's. I had a casting company that was doing pretty well. Lots of sub-contracts for bit parts for the bigger casting agents. Then SAG went on strike and killed my business. On top of that, because SAG was on strike, I couldn't even fall back on making some quick pocket money doing extras roles. So I ended up in the computer industry. Very happy with what I'm doing now, and getting paid a decent wage for being a network engineer. But when writers and actors go on strike, I still get pissed. Why? Because, I know, from first hand experience, all those people in the credits that role at the end of movies, and the myriad of people behind the scenes for television shows, are out of work, and most of them don't get unemployment checks, and for F*CKS sake, they DO NOT get paid royalties for the past creative projects they helped produce.
So Joe, you and Harlan, and the rest the whining little f*cktards can shove it up your arses. There are PLENTY of very VERY talented people waiting in line behind you that could use the exposure and break, and most of them will do it for very little money, because they just want to do it. God only knows how many actors, writers, directors, and musicians do student films and free shorts and so on and so on, just in hopes that they will get seen by someone who can take them to the next level.
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Re: Re: But it's OK to screw writers and other creative types
If you're willing to work for the exposure and no residuals or on-screen credits, that's entirely your affair. If the Writers Guild or SAG goes on strike, yes, it does hurt others working in the industry that are not union members (and it actually hurts many of the union members as well), but perhaps they should organize themselves to get a better deal.
If you were happy with your film work and the compensation you received, that's great. But most people who work for the exposure when starting out do so in the hope and expectation that as they succeed in the business, they will get the extended compensation and other benefits of union contracts. But no one is guaranteeing that success.
I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.
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Re: But it's OK to screw writers and other creative types
It's pretty much exactly the same mindset. Widespread rent-seeking has become the enemy of an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. I mean, you'd have to be a chump to spend 30-40 years of your life working a 40-hour week minimum when you can just stake out a piece of intellectual 'property' and collect the cheques for the rest of your life, right?
(Also, in reply to someone else's comment, I'm pretty sure Orson Scott Card is a douche because he's a raging homophobe, not because of his views on IP.)
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Harlan Ellison: Creativity Destroyer
In almost every commentary on that episode or any other Star Trek episode dealing with time travel, it's noted that no one revisited his thrilling story with a follow-up (at least not officially, anyway) in ANY of the following episodes or any of the subsequent movies or spinoff shows, nor did they ever use the character/plot device of the Guardian of Forever (despite its incredible popularity) simply because no one wanted to deal with him at Paramount. I believe, I don't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure, I read somewhere that even JJ Abrams, when writing the upcoming Star Trek movie wanted to use that plot device but was unwilling to deal with Harlan himself.
It's also why, even though all of the Star Trek actors, directors, other writers and production staff were at the WGA protests last year, and even though they all typically appeared together in videos covering the event, no one appeared with Harlan.
Now granted, he's entitled to what was agreed upon in the first place between himself and (at the time) Desilu Studios for the episode he wrote. Legally though, once the package is put together everything becomes Paramount's property. If they make money on it, the writers get some money for it (not sure how much or how long). That's it though. Harlan's mistaken belief that he somehow controls the characters and plot of his stories and that he ought to get paid any time derivative works are used is simply ludicrous.
Perfect analogy: he's put all of his characters and plots and plot devices and other such creations behind a paywall. If/when he frees his content we'll see more creative adaptations and uses of these things.
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Lost Sailor
Well spoken LostSailor!
Jimmy
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i have hope that artists can transform society
from its greedy state to a gift-exchange basis,
thanks to the miracle of cost-free reproduction.
you can't beat someone over the head, however,
to get them to give you a gift. it just won't work.
i find it difficult to see why harlan should "work"
for free, when nobody else is. they needed him
more than he needed them. do you expect me to
side with warner brothers instead? i think i'll pass.
i'm gonna take a piss now. hey, no need to pay me. :+)
-bowerbird
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You are simply not of the same gene pool
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Many of the suits I've heard about sound like nuisance suits. "Pay me somthing and I'll go away." There didn't seem to be any justice in Ellison's extraction of money from the creators of "The Terminator," for instance.
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Harlan Ellison is a fucking gang-banging faggot
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