Apparently, You're Only Allowed To Comment On Failed Business Models If You Believe In Them
from the fascinating dept
We've noticed quite a trend around here when it comes to the various business model discussions we tend to have: people who believe in the bad business models we discuss almost always start screaming about how we have no right to comment because we haven't embraced that bad business model. Thus, when we talk about music, we're told we can't comment because we've never sold music. When we talk about patents, we're told we can't comment because we've never received a patent. When we talk about the journalism business, we're told we can't comment because we've never been journalists. Of course, that's quite silly. It's like saying that no one who isn't an economist can comment on business models, because only economists understand business models. And, it makes even less sense when you realize that what people are effectively saying is "you can't tell us how stupid our plan is unless you decided to make use of the same stupid plan."But now we're even seeing the flipside, as well. Randy Siegel is saying that Jeff Jarvis shouldn't be trusted on talking about the future of media because the worse newspapers do, the better Jarvis does -- both as someone the media goes to, and in getting consulting gigs that help companies trying to avoid the fate of newspapers. Of course, there's something tautological about the whole thing. Basically, Jarvis is being slammed for being right. Because he's right, more people go to him for info -- and to Siegel, that means he can no longer be trusted? Wow.
First people are told they can't comment on something if they're not in the business -- and now they're being to they can't comment on something if they are in the business -- and successfully avoiding the giant ice berg floating up towards them. I don't see how that makes any sense at all. Apparently, the only people allowed to comment on how to avoid the ice berg are those who are screaming their heads off about the ice berg coming towards them, but are unwilling to do a damn thing about it. It seems like those people almost deserve to hit the ice berg.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: business models, criticism, economics, journalism, newspapers
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Can I Comment?
Pot, meet Kettle.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Can I Comment?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Can I Comment?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Can I Comment?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Can I Comment?
You have no idea what you are talking about and are obviously just making crap up, fan boi.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Can I Comment?
Wait? It went through immediately!?!? Really? Ok, I think maybe it is you, cock stain, who has no idea what they're talking about.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Can I Comment?
Wait? It went through immediately!?!? Really? Ok, I think maybe it is you, cock stain, who has no idea what they're talking about.
Mike has previously said that they use automatic spam filters to flag suspicious messages. And the filters don't just trigger on message content either. If there has been a spammer operating from your ISP lately then posts from anyone using your ISP may be filtered. And rather than let a suspect message go through and remove it later, they put it in a hold to be reviewed first. So no, despite your claims, your post didn't go through immediately, it went through the filter first. But maybe you don't think Mike has any idea either, huh?
Matt (or Your Gawd and Master or whatever name you're using now), It's always funny to watch how you fan boys start lying, nym-shifting, name calling and spewing vulgar language when you're wrong. So predictable.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Back on topic. Mike, did it occur to you that those people may not want to avoid the iceberg? They're afraid, no, terrified, of the open sea^H^H^H future. And when people are terrified, they'll make all kind of nonsensical decisions. Such as choosing to die on their high horses rather than live on their feet.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Err, Felix, Techdirt really isn't that kind of blog.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
My guess : AC#3 is lying.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The problem with your models and the examples you use is that most of the musicians are experienced with various aspects and can handle a lot of the day to day business of releasing a record and all that goes with it. Of the examples you list where the musician is not experienced I don't see a lot of them getting out and touring. Ok, good for them all if they can survive as a musician and be happy with their careers. Great!
But the vast majority of musicians need a network of people supporting them, kicking in tour support until they get on their feet, providing the promotion for the release and tour, sorting out much of the documentation, taxes, logistics. This is where labels and booking agents are invaluable. If the label starts cutting into sales on the road of both merchandise and fees the musician suffers, as this is often what they depend on to support themselves throughout the year.
This is, for me anyway, the problem with someone never having been in the business coming up with solutions that don't address a lot of what happens in the music business.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Damned if you do, damned if you don't
Using their flawed logic for an example: I don't have a valid opinion of how good a prospective car is, because I don't make cars. And then, if I do make cars, I can't comment, because it's self interest! lol That's ridiculous.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Thanks
Note, too, that Siegel has a very strong interest in seeing old newspapers say alive so he can sell them Parade. Every time a paper dies (or cuts its budget), he dies a little. That's why he started that Newspaper Project blog and ad thing to sell the wonderfulness of paper as paper. He benefits a lot more than I do.
As I pointed out in a comment on his NewspaperProject blog (there's no opportunity to comment at E&P - surprise, surprise), Siegel doesn't reveal that he and I worked together as I was president and creative director of Advance.net, the online arm of his parent company, for a dozen years. In that capacity, I tried to bring Parade into the future. I failed.
I quit so I could accomplish more change - helping newspapers - as a professor. I now earn a fraction of what I did when I worked for Advance but I believe I can get more done. Note well that I also still consult for Siegel's company... helping a newspaper.
Mike, what I think you're identifying is both a defensiveness and emotionalism that is taking over this discussion as things get more dire. I'm seeing it, too, in the debate over paid content (otherwise rational people who just stomp their feet and say it SHOULD happen). I guess it's not surprising: a mark of desperation.
I work hard to try to help advance journalism into the next age. Anyone is welcome to disagree with me and what I say. But to attack my motive is nothing short of petty and defamatory.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Thanks
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Thanks
But other than that...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Faith
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The future
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: The future
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Track record
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Change (even positive change) is difficult for most people, it takes strong leadership to embrace change. Some people (and businesses) dig their heels in and insists that the way it has always worked will contine to work. The pattern continues to the point where there is a new "normal" and only a handful of businesses exist doing it strictly the old way, cashing in on the limited interest in "nostalgia". It's your typical bell curve.
In the printing industry for instance, there have been quite a few of these technology shifts. The last big one was from letterpress to offset. Now it is shifting to digital from offset.
Along with all of these changes come failures and successes ... and opinions about what those businesses are doing. This is a pretty normal thing. I have to say that I also find it a bit "fascinating" or amusing when when someone argues by saying "you can't tell me!" Of course they can tell you. It doesn't mean you have to believe them!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
From a journalist who sometimes criticizes Hollywood biz models
And when that happens, I have a hard time resisting the temptation to send this reply: "How can you possibly tell a newspaper writer how to do his job? You've never reported a story for a daily paper!"
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Being Right.
It seems that it is difficult to soar with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys (envious turkeys, that is).
You must be doing something right if you are under savage attack from a horde of turkeys.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
You of all people should know
It's much easier to attack credibility then to be constructive about why you think the author is wrong.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Just the facts.
If Siegel is going to make such a snide comment, he should make sure to get his own blasted facts straight.
According to the Washington Post's AdBook, which can be found here;
http://www.washingtonpostads.com/adsite/_res/files/managed/TWP%20AdBook2009.pdf
the Post has a circulation of 666,434 for the Monday-Friday period, and 912,433 for the Sunday. Even an idiot would know that you don't simply add those two numbers together. There's going to be lots of overlap, and it's even feasible that a majority of those Monday-Friday people also are getting Sunday, meaning that the daily readership is well below 1 million.
I'm all for snide comments, but make sure you're right.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Technologists who are industry-ignorant thieves that steal music and build businesses without paying
vs.
Record labels who are greedy, ostrich-like dinosaurs with their heads in the ground, running bloated models that fatten their expense accounts and line the pockets of superstars.
For more than a decade (and even longer if you work in "niche" genres), most of us in the music business (not just the recording industry) who think it is important for projects to be profitable and for everyone to make a living, have had to operate in the reality of lean recording budgets, creative marketing (instead of expensive advertising) and direct fan interaction. I'm grateful for the new tools and models that make some of these things more efficient and for the old models, like commercial licensing and radio airplay (which is still how 70% of people find out about music) that fund these efforts.
It's idealistic of me to expect that meaningful dialogue and collaboration between the two sides can become the dominant course instead of the bickering, but at least I enjoy the benefit of finding the desire for mutual benefit in my professional dealings.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
"
And to hell with those caught in the middle (customer).
Why do you not get exasperated about this?
And then both sides wonder where the market went .. as the customer says screw you and hightails it outta there.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What have you accomplished, Mike?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What have you accomplished, Mike?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: What have you accomplished, Mike?
What is your point? What's up with all those questions ...
And then towards the end of the rant ... there is an attempt to make an accusation. Stop beating around the bush and just say it already.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: What have you accomplished, Mike?
I think that's for others to decide, not me. I know plenty of folks from a variety of different perspectives who regularly have sent in their thanks for helping them determine their own business models. I think that's great and that's an accomplishment.
At the same time, we've built up our own business, based on those same principles, which I also think of as an accomplishment. The fact that the business I envisioned and help build thanks to a great team is now helping to provide a living for our entire staff is what I consider to be quite an accomplishment. More than I ever hoped to accomplish.
In 2008, thanks to the Insight Community, we've been able to get hundreds of different people thousands of dollars for providing insight. Our top earner made $20,000 last year. I consider that to be an accomplishment.
I gave a presentation at the largest music industry conference, leading to deep discussions with multiple folks around the industry -- including some who have been regularly discussing ideas with us. I think that's an accomplishment.
I recently was asked to present about these issues before the FTC. I think that's an accomplishment.
I recently spoke about these issues before the Congressional Internet Caucus. I think that's an accomplishment.
I have had multiple executive teams from some of the top companies around the world ask for briefings about these topics, which has resulted in fantastic and interesting discussions. I think that's an accomplishment.
I have been asked (and asked back) to give a series of lectures at a major university in Europe on this topic. I think that's an accomplishment.
But, in the end, I'm sure none of that matters to you.
I've accomplished more than I ever set out to accomplish -- which was to discuss these issues which I thought were quite important. Some other people think so as well.
But, this was never about accomplishments. This was about getting these ideas out there -- and they are much more widely spread than they were before, and the discussions around them have been great, and have even lead me to adjust my own thinking over the years.
The good news, for me, is that I'm quite happy with everything I've accomplished (well beyond what I ever set out to do). If you believe that people need to accomplish more to mean something in life, that's your own hurdle.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: What have you accomplished, Mike?
Your real accomplishments you've done will just woosh through Scorpiaux's head. It's sad, but true.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: What have you accomplished, Mike?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Customer and Seller: Customer's always King.
Those who pay heed to their potential customers serve them better. You can say this of any business. The more comments you have against your offering or positioning or model of selling tells you how you can change to reach a larger customer base.
Most Sales People know that the Customer is always right. It really doesn't work the other away. Almost all products and solutions are market driven. If the market reduces consumption, you lose.
You could apply this to the Music industry or the Movie industry or probably any commercial institution.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
We all have the right to comment on IP issues, not because we are potential consumers, but because we are citizens and have a democratic right to try to influence law making. There has been a worrying trend lately to reduce the rights of us citizens to a mere considering of the consumer interests. We should stand vigilant so that we don't buy into that dangerous shift of perspective.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: @Claes
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]