Why Won't Local Governments Just Increase The Length Of Yellow Lights?
from the start-a-campaign dept
We've seen that, thanks to the economy, states like Maryland and New York are ramping up programs for speed and red light cameras. However, that's not true of all places. Mississippi recently went the other direction and banned such traffic cameras, following a similar backlash in Arizona. A recent Wall Street Journal article takes a look at all of this (including the fact that some of the bigger traffic camera companies are based in Arizona) and raises the key question: why won't local governments just increase the length of yellow lights on traffic signals. That, alone, would save numerous accidents (and lives). Yet, many governments have been doing the exact opposite: putting lives at risk, just to bring in more revenue (often to pay off those private companies that installed the cameras). On top of that, there are still plenty of locations that don't leave any pause between switching lights between cross traffic. Here in California, for example, it's quite rare for there to be any pause between a light turning red in one direction, and the perpendicular traffic light turning green. Studies have shown that a slight pause -- where all directions are red -- decreases the number of accidents as well. And yet... governments focus on using traffic cameras solely to increase revenue.
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Filed Under: red light cameras, revenue, safety, traffic cameras, yellow lights
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Because...
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Where "huge" is "very tiny", yes.
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Most studies have shown otherwise. But then, you're the expert, huh?
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primary function of governments
if i was a state politician i would make it a first degree felony for any light in the state to have below the federal minimum yellow plus 1 second (the federal minimum ranges from 3-6 depending on the speed at the intersection), or 4 seconds, whichever is larger (so even if they reduce the federal minimums, my state citizens are safer).
and i'm not a bleeding heart liberal who is bitching about saving society from ourselves. i'm a libertanarchist who can't stand overreaching government. i don't want local governments in my state abusing people.
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Re: primary function of governments
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Maryland Traffic Signal Scam
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Regardless of what you do with timing of the lights, pauses, etc., people will continue to run red lights. It is what people do.
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"Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick is moving ahead with a plan for mandatory GPS devices in cars that would be read at gas pumps and automatically charge drivers for miles driven."
The fact that this idea is even being considered frightens the crap out of me. It's almost as bad as the OnStar device that allows OnStar to shut off your car.
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However, there is talk about doing it nationally.
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- a bit off topic but worth discussion
1) GPS in every vehicle is possibly the worst method of implementation.
2) A milage based tax is already in place. The more you drive, the more gas you need and it has worked for many years.
The problem (or excuse) is that cars have become more fuel efficent (government mandate) and therefore revenue has decreased. I guess they overlooked the recession causing people to drive less. The most efficient government response to this government caused problem would be to increase the gas tax. This would keep the fuel efficiency benefit and incentive.
Scary version: government wants to track everyone all the time and this just an excuse to crawl into your vehicle.
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i don't think any of those are the "right" solution
the red-red time should be set as a federal limit of say... 4 seconds. all directions in an intersection should be red for that limit before allowing travel in any direction. there will always be people who try to "beat the light" - i believe that reducing those fatalities is key to making intersections safer nation wide.
by enacting red-light cameras instead of taking preventative action in the best interest of the drivers mortality - government is clearly saying "we don't care about you".
does it really need to be any more complicated than this?
- FJM
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Re: i don't think any of those are the "right" solution
It happens all the time here, and it pisses me off-- usually because it results in that douche being stuck in the middle of the intersection blocking the people who now get a green light but can't go anywhere.
Red light cameras are a revenue scam, but the speeding laws are just as much a scam-- so no one should feel that this is new. Here in Boston, pretty much everyone speeds (and I'm okay with that!) but I consistently see the state troopers on the side of the road, not pulling anyone over. I've always wondered, since we are all breaking the rules, why they only enforce it come the end of the month? Clearly, it's about revenue and not "making me safe". (Not that making me drive 55mph makes me any safer than driving 70mph.)
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Re: Re: i don't think any of those are the "right" solution
Revenue for the state and county government!
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I don't try to beat yellow lights, and I couldn't care less if there's a camera to catch the person who does.
In Germany everyone stops when the light is yellow, because while your light is going green-yellow-red, the opposite light is going red-yellow-GREEN and those drivers are *ready to go* on green!
If our traffic lights worked like that here, the problem of running red lights would be solved..... eventually....
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Yeah, that should improve safety.
Meanwhile, the smart commenters (and the research) say the exact opposite: that having the two directions display Red simultaneously for some short time reduces accidents.
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It's rediculous in California
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Re: It's rediculous in California
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Re: Re: It's rediculous in California
My old man does CDL licensing in a neighboring state, and he said "I would have ticketed you for stopping in a clear intersection on a right turn for endangering people behind you"
Seriously, all you Californians really, really, have been babied and don't know how to drive.
There's a reason why we all laugh at you behind your back.
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No Intergreen Period?
Moreover, those who sanctimoniously claim that all drivers should stop on yellow are simply wrong. The yellow light is to tell drivers to stop if safe to do so. You would not want drivers who are about to enter the junction to slam on the brakes if the light turns yellow, would you?
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Re: No Intergreen Period?
That's because over here they're more interested in making money that promoting safety.
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Untrue generalization
Maybe the Bay Area is 30 years behind on this issue, but it's certainly not true of all of California.
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Because, by and large - Government cars more about money than lives - this issue is pretty much proof of that.
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red light cameras
side problem: people prefer to assume
I am a professional mechanic. Ive covered over half million miles of driving around California. Long yellows mean more runners. Longer pauses cause emancipators to run into eliminators. I'm sorry to say but the intersections with the cameras seem to have the least # of accidents.
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Re: red light cameras
So, how does that qualify you as an engineer?
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In OZ
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it's on the drivers
Road rules, signs, lights.. etc are all forms of control. The more stretch they have to them the more we the drivers will stretch them.
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Re: it's on the drivers
You see how making stuff up is less reliable than actual data?
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Redlight Cameras
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Re: Redlight Cameras
That's funny ... like Fox News - Fair and Balanced.
I would venture to say that "the media" spans the entire spectrum; left, right and middle. Distrbution is not uniform but it certainly is not soley left or right as so many seem to claim.
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Re: Re: Redlight Cameras
Bend over America.
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Redlight Cameras
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An extra light prior to the yellow light
The answer is to add another light prior to the yellow light to give us that extra time to stop (especially in bigger rigs – it is harder to stop).
With today’s technology this could be done easily. How about make the yellow light FLASH for 2 seconds prior to turning (solid) yellow.
This would give us the extra time we need to safely stop.
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Re: An extra light prior to the yellow light
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Not sure just what is meant by that, but ok.
And the politicians then let the (private company) engineering function decrease the yellow light duration.
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While signal timing SHOULD be an engineering function, it seems to have become a political one.
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because the ATM aspect of these cameras is like a drug
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Delay
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Re: Delay
I suppose it could be just a California thing. I've lived both in Ohio and Maryland, and have also driven extensively in Florida and Pennsylvania, and don't recall seeing a set of lights that weren't staggered like that.
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What?
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Re: What?
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/04/06/us.traffic.deaths/
On a slightly separate, but related note, intersection accidents are typically the #1 or #2 site of traffic accidents and deaths. According to the Federal Highway Administration, in spite of changes in intersection designs and safety improvements, the percentage of accidents at intersections have not changed significantly. Their recommendation? Get rid of intersections and go to roundabouts.
Source: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/resourcecenter/teams/safety/safe_7rnd.cfm
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Cameras are expensive and unnecessary. It's time to embed RFID chips into license plates (add the cost to the license) and replace cameras with simple radio scanning strips built into the roads. The same thing could be done on highways to detect speeding. Your car could tell you that "You are traveling more than 10% over the speed limit. You have 15 seconds to slow down or you will be issued a speeding ticket." This could all be done today. It's cheaper and far less complex than the nav systems people use.
So why don't we solve this problem? Because WE are the idiots who all run the red lights and WE are also the same people who elect the idiots in government who make the rules. When WE want to solve these types of silly issues, WE will.
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Think I'll add to your silliness. Lets also install in every vehicle a device to automatically issue fines when an infraction is detected, not unlike that seen in the movie Demolition Man. No more swearing at those idiot driverz.
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F*^$ Cars
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Redlight Cameras don't work.
In my state, they tried red light cameras for about a decade at a few choice intersections that were among the top 50 in traffic in the country.
Redlight Cameras, and the idea of legislating by re-programming behaviours also doesn't take into consideration population and city growth.
Eventually, the local municipality got smart, and the intersections with redlight cameras in 1996 were voted on replacement by voters, and approved by a large margin.
The flyovers to not only replaced the lights, but also the cameras. This solution not only increased safety, but also was in-line with proposed 10 and 15 year population growth estimates in the area. Plus, increased commercial and retail establishments ultimately lead to collection of more sales tax revenue.
Sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and quit looking to make a quick buck:
Pissing off residents can create a gap in collectible tax revenue by making them move.
And pissing off people who come to spend money in your municipality makes them patronize elsewhere.
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Mo' Money
Same reason Police hide to catch a speeder when it is proven that keeping the Police car visible is enough to slow people down. Is the priority to keep people safe or get money?
Same reason they hide at the bottom of a hill vs. the top... easy money.
Why they hate responding to domestic disturbances? No Money.
Why the traffic stops quadruple in Feb-Mar? End of fiscal year time to make their budget.
The list goes on.
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Re: Mo' Money
One day I was driving on highway 270 in St. Louis County. I came to a clot of traffic as we passed the McDonnell exit on the west side of St. Louis County. I realized there was an unmarked police car leading the group and settled back with the rest of the group.
I looked in my rear view mirror to see a sporty little car blistering down highway 270. The young female driver quickly slowed when she realized that I was not going to move over (I was in the far left lane and could not move over because there were cars beside me). She was within a car length of my bumper for 5 or 10 seconds before dropping back and moving right.
The police car had been moving toward the right lane, perhaps to get off at Lindbergh. However, as the young lady zipped to the far right lane and squeezed into gaps between cars, the unmarked police car (which was covered in antennas and had clearly visible red and blue lights in the rear window, a spotlight clearly visible even from behind in any lane to the left of the police car, AND a state license plate - it would take an idiot to miss the car), began shifting lanes back to the left.
When the young lady got through the crowd of cars, she hit the gas and took off, passing the police car, which was in the lane next to hers, and quickly disappearing as 270 begins to curve east at this point. Since we were driving 60 mph, I estimate her speed at between 80 and 90 mph.
I watched the highway patrolman to see what he was going to do. He reached over, picked up and put on his hat, straightening it. Then he hit the lights and the gas at the same time, quickly disappearing around the curve on 270.
A short time later I passed the police car, now parked on the should of 270 behind the zippy little sports car with its oblivious driver.
Moral: It does not matter how obvious the police cars are. It does not matter how long the yellow lights are. It does not matter how long the gap is between the red and the green lights. Someone will always break the law for some mental justification and statistically the more of these violations there are, the more accidents there will be. It is because people will always figure out how to game the system that changes to intersections will not work.
The only real problem with red light cameras is that it catches the people who game the system, pissing them off. Amazingly, we have one traffic circle or roundabout in our town, our first, in fact, and guess what? Yep, it pisses people off because, wait for it...IT SLOWS THEM DOWN AND THEY HAVE TO ACTUALLY WAIT FOR TRAFFIC ALREADY IN THE CIRCLE. Amazing. I have heard of people aiming for a referendum to get rid of the traffic circle. Too funny.
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Re: Re: Mo' Money
The reasoning here is flawed. The fact that some number of people will break the law no matter what does not imply that no improvement of outcomes is possible.
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Re: Re: Re: Mo' Money
I did not mean to imply that there was no potential for improvement of outcomes. Indeed, there are statistics that show improvements can be had. Increasing the length of yellow lights appears to decrease accidents, at least in the short term. I have not seen studies regarding long term use of increased length yellow lights. I have also seen studies that indicate that the use of traffic circles has a significant affect on fatal accidents and serious injuries, and I believe on accidents in general. Lastly, I am aware of numerous studies showing that speed cameras (as opposed to red light cameras) statistically correlate with reduced accidents and deaths.
Yes, some people will always break the law, even if it if virtually certain they will get caught. Perhaps what I should have said was that because people will always figure out how to game the system by learning how the new system works (I can safely run a red light up to 4 seconds after the light changes) that changes will never be as effective as we would like them to be, and changes may have their greatest effect immediately after the change and then slowly decline in effectiveness with time. I look forward to the studies.
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Isn't that why we elect our Government?
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But even the mere suggestion England's implementation would be warmly welcomed in the USA leaves me shaking my head. Violently. If I was a child, I would probably be pronounced dead right now from SIDS.
How long did you stay in England, mwalczak? Probably not very long. Or perhaps, the inverse is true. How long have you been in the USA, mwalzak?
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Illinois produces some real crazy drivers.
I wonder how many red lights Obama ran.
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Longer Yellow Lights
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Re: Longer Yellow Lights
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Switerland does something different
I wonder if the knowledge that the other side is going to be revved and ready to take off when they turn green cuts down on the number of people trying to sneak through at the end, sort of the opposite of putting a delay in where both are red for a moment.
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Here's another ... lets install tire shreaders that activate upon red - that will get those basturds.
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cameras
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Blinking Yellow
Gotta love getting your license at 16 and never having to take a drivers test again.
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Longer yellow light
Just think what cameras do. Creates a self paying bureaucracy, public & private jobs while lowering the accident rate.
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Roundabouts can be safer than intersections:
http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersections/roundabouts.htm
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Because all of you are nagging, about a corrupt government and what not.
It's the same government that tries its best to keep you people safe, that's where the camera is for, of course there is a redneck every once in a while that runs a red-light and gets caught on camera, but did you ever stop and tried to think about how many people stop when they know there is a camera around.
I've seen some horrific driving accidents just because the idiots that have a green light spent more time looking at the traffic light, and making sure they make a rocket start than they pay attention on the road ahead of them.
Yellow means stop when it's safe to do so, there are few situations where it is not safe, for example if you have make a break on a dime or when a big truck is to close (where you could trigger an accident if you pushed the breaks).
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Smart Lights
Smart lights.
Lights that detect if someone is about to run a red light that turn all lights red.
I live in Houston and the few lights I have seen where there is a delay before a light goes green, all lights are red, there has been a huge difference in the number of people running lights. Has turned some intersections from death traps to just dangerous.
The red light cameras are everywhere around where I live.. Has it helped? No. Not at all. The cameras go off about 5 times every red light. I wonder how many accidents the flash has caused oncoming traffic..
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Compounding crimes...
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If people see that there is a delay between their light going red and the cross street going green, they will think it is alright to run the light red because there is that delay.
We got two red light cameras where I live. Those intersections are a lot safer then before they were installed as red light didn't mean anything to most drivers.
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Red light camera
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Red light cameras
to see in Illinois automatic NO TURN ON RED at all intersections with a camera.By the way only two counties
around the St.Loius area and six around Chicago can have
Red Light Cameras so this means if you move elsewhere in that state it is possible you will never see one.
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