We Need A Freedom To Tinker Law... Not Just A Right To Repair
from the take-it-further dept
The EFF has a post about the proposed "Right to Repair" law that would stop the practice of car companies locking up diagnostic codes and information in onboard car computers.Ideally, the solution would be to get rid of the DMCA's anti-circumvention rules, but the EFF suggests a more universal "Right to Repair" Act. I'd even take it a step further and say, why not a "Freedom to Tinker Act"? This goes beyond just "repairing," and to basic tinkering -- which is often found at the root of innovation. Companies are abusing copyright law in many ways to prevent any kind of tinkering whatsoever, beyond just repairing. Doing so clearly goes against the entire purpose of copyright law, and it would be great to stop that kind of abuse.
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Filed Under: competition, copyright, dmca, freedom to tinker, right to repair
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Touch my car? Hahahaha. Missing a browser is one thing, missing your brakes is another.
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Having your breaks go out is one of the worst case scenarios for someone working on their own car. In regards to this article, what's far more likely to happen is that your check engine light comes on and, instead of being able to look up a code yourself, you have to take it to the dealer to have them look it up for you. It could be a small issue that you can take care of yourself, but since you don't know what's causing the check engine light to come on, you take it to the dealer in case it's something serious. The car knows what's wrong. The problem is, the owner doesn't.
What possible reason, other than a money grab, could there be for not just displaying the information available instead of just a red light or no red light?
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And you miss the point of humor, which is worse.
That being said, I don't have to take my car to the dealership to use the diagnostics, I take it to a local repair man. That has worked fine, so I don't see an issue.
You can also go to Pep Boys and buy a damm program and hook it up to your laptop to get those numbers, so again, what is the issue?
We create a law to ban something that isn't an issue? Isn't this place against stupid laws that don't do anything? Oh, that's right, only stupid laws that you don't agree with.
I guess I should no not to use humor around it, since most of the people here are humorless.
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The problem is of course money. Perhaps you have so much money and free time that taking your car to the dealer or an "authorized" repair shop isn't an issue, but most people would want the freedom to attempt to repair their car themselves or, at least, go whereever they want to have it repaired.
You can also go to Pep Boys and buy a damm program and hook it up to your laptop to get those numbers, so again, what is the issue?
Based on the linked article, the issue appears to be that the car companies are restricting access to the diagnostic tools to repair shops that they authorize. This obviously restricts the number of parties which can work on a car and therefore increases the price.
Sure, maybe the Pep Boys program can give you some information, but the article states that some diagnostic tools are being restricted. If you refute the facts as presented in the article, then say so. And if you believe the article, then there obviously is an issue.
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I have a scanner that works on all GM, and most Ford and Dodge. Never had a problem reading codes but my scanner is ment for reprograming the computer.
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You're showing your ignorance if you think OBDII is all there is.
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Many cars have much more in depth diagnostics that are NOT available through OBD. It's generally a separate system.
I could get likely 10x or more data if I could tap into my BMW's diagnostic system. It gives information about all the systems in my car. Not just emissions related information.
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You keep using that word, "humor".
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Re: You keep using that word, "humor".
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A $40 OBDII reader is too much?
A simple, easy to use ODBII reader runs about $40 and codes (universal, thank goodness) can be found on the internet. Many readers will come with a small booklet as well.
I read the Ars story on this, and it's the specific machine tools which caught my eye, and if this bill passes into law, I'll be thankful. There's nothing worse than trying to work on a vehicle requiring a special tool which can't be purchased.
The worst part about all this is the deliberate steps an auto manufacturer will take to ensure the car is returned for service. They kill people's wallets there.
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Re: A $40 OBDII reader is too much?
You're showing your ignorance if you think OBDII is all there is.
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Even if an individual is able to get a hold of a diagnostic tool that will work on their own car, there is the bigger issue of whether independent repair shops can. It'd be hard -- but not impossible, as we've seen -- to sue individuals, but it's much easier to sue car repair shops. If you owned a car repair shop and knew that if a major car company found out that you were using some diagnostic tool you bought on the Internet, you'd be sued into oblivion, you might think twice about doing so.
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and what happens when the car companies start issuing cease and desist letters claiming trade secrets or copyright violations?
if you buy a physical item, you should have the freedom to do what you want to it regardless of the seller's wishes.
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Those are the OBD/OBDII codes. There's more to it than that.
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When I graduated from college and moved to a larger city I tried this and the dealer refused to tell me and said I would have to bring it in for a $145 diagnostic. Hopefully the new law would prevent this kind of extortion.
I can't believe that all new cars don't have this type of self diagnostic test built in, I think it should be required that the steps to initiate the test and the resulting error codes be printed in the owners manual.
I have been unable
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That said, I agree with this law. I just don't think it means anyone should expect a dealer to be a free information hotline. That's no different than when I worked in an IT shop, and we would get calls from people who wanted us to walk them through repairs over the phone for free. A repair shop of any kind provides a service based on knowledge and experience that they and their employees have spent time and money to obtain. It is not reasonable for anyone to think they have a right to call a repair shop and demand free information or advice.
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Any IT shop worth their salt would be happy to give you a mfr phone number if they have it.
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Yeah, and some of the boys in the shop probably had names for blacks, Jews, women, homosexuals and others too. Thanks for pointing that out.
If you knew the code, it was your responsibility to research and determine what it meant.
Err, that's what he was doing.
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2 differnt programs
First is the program for smog checks etc. By law the car needs to use standard codes for some stuff. This is stuff like a sensor saying the fuel air mix is off so your gas is not burning perfectly. This can be read by autozones 40-60 dollar gizmo.
The 2nd set of codes are the codes the automaker put in itself (not covered by law) this list of codes can be anything under the sun and what the code means is a closly guarded secret. Generaly its so closly guarded people calling in asking if there car is safe to drive to a repair shop wont even be told what the code means. The "dealer" will however send a tow truck.
The biggest problem here is the fact that the code translations are being kept as trade secrets. Depending on the car manufacturor even the code book may be unobtainable unless your a real "authorized dealer" or "authorized repair shop" because the company does not want anyone outside their circle of friends to do repair work on your car.
Just a counter argument:
Cars have become so complex in their computer systems that you can no longer repair them with common tools around your house. In some cases over 100 sensors in modern cars means that even well trained repairmen may have no clue whats going on in your new car. As such, we the generic car company have a right to say who can and cant work on your car, because otherwise we would get hit with possable liability if your repair goes wrong, or bypasses one of our sensor or safty systems leaving the car in a non-standard state. Thus we have both the right and the responcability to ensure your car is running at 100% at all times and for even the most minor of repairs demand that one of our service people, with years of training, get to work on it.
The above is definatly not my opinion, but vary close to that of car makers.
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Yes it is, but it is also complete BS. They do not have the right to determine anything about your car because it is, in fact, your car.
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Yes it is, but it is also complete BS. They do not have the right to determine anything about your car because it is, in fact, your car.
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Computer Code
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Award = Best comment seen on the Internet today (or maybe this week).
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Autozone and others can read many systems, and will tell you what is wrong, and you are free to tinker. Nobody stops you from taking a wrench to your car. But the current systems are honestly too complex for a shade tree mechanic to play with. Engine modifications will just lead to full time check engine and reduced performance, not increases.
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If I want to drive around in my car with 4 flat tires destroying the rims, getting less mileage etc, isn't that my right?
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The days of the old VW Beetle are long gone. Higher end new autos have engine components occupying almost the entire volume of an engine compartment. "Drive by wire" is just around the corner. Only the Good Lord knows what new electronic doo-dads are being incorporated into autos.
Perhaps this makes sense for autos that are fast approaching the limits of their warranty (and perhaps warranties should be freely transferrable when an auto is sold as used to another purchaser). But seriously, is anybody whose auto is under warranty really going to trust their "investment" to Bubba?
Since all of us apparently collectively "own" Chrysler and GM, maybe this proposed legislation should be limited accordingly. Otherwise I would leave well enough alone.
As an aside, I have personally not noted any significant difference in pricing between a dealership and Bubba's. Moreover, I do have to wonder what impact such a law might have on new car pricing since so much of what a dealer hopes to earn is directly tied to future auto service. Cut that umbilical and then tell me prices will remain the same. I think not.
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I feel that locking your customers out of the diagnostic systems is a poor choice of actions. If I were an auto maker, I would simply write in to the warranty a clause requiring all repair to be done by shops certified by my company. I believe that Kia already does this. That way people are free to tinker and fix as they see fit, but it will void the warranty.
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So, you say that people are too stupid to choose a trustworthy mechanic?
"Only the Good Lord knows what new electronic doo-dads are being incorporated into autos."
Oh lord I hope not.
"But seriously, is anybody whose auto is under warranty really going to trust their "investment" to Bubba?"
The issue occurs after the warranty runs out. Shouldn't it be up to the owner of the car to decide who he wants working on it? In 50 years, where are you going to find a dealer that is willing to (or can) work on it?
"As an aside, I have personally not noted any significant difference in pricing between a dealership and Bubba's."
Now even I think you should stop going to Bubba's. Find a trustworthy mechanic. One that's dependent on repeat (loyal) business and isn't payed on commission. Then you will see the difference in price.
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What a bigot.
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Another possible implication?
If so, this law would be a boon for the aftermarket performance companies. Right now, much of the information in the ECU like fuel maps, ignition curves, and the algorithms to modify the fuel & ignition settings based on engine sensor data is encrypted, so it's difficult to modify the ECU to optimize it for modifications like larger turbochargers or bigger fuel injectors until the ECU has been "cracked".
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I am an asstard
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So its not like that stuff doesnt already exist. Its just available for every car on the road.
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Didn't grow up in the 70's/80's did ya?
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Most on-board systems now go far beyond OBD/OBDII. Those are what are being discussed. Please try to keep up.
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Actually, there isn't a need for a new law
Given all this, I don't see the need for this law. Unless I'm missing something, circumventing these locks are likely legal already.
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ALL cars sold in the USA have OBD II now. Previously they had OBD I. "On Board Diagnostics"
This is basically limited to only EMISSIONS information.
What this article is referring to are much more in depth sensors and diagnostics that are NOT OBD II. You can get information on every single thing that is monitored by the car. Depending on the car this can be a HUGE supply of information.
On some cars you can set a ton of options for the car. How long the interior lights stay on, how long the headlights stay on after you turn off the car, airbag information, just more information than you would believe.
NO ONE is saying you can't use a scantool to get OBD/OBD II information.
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another perspective
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It's really expensive and you have to go through "certain channels" because the manufacturers keep the interface information locked up to keep it that way. That's the whole problem.
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http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=192541
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Probably? Seriously? If you're going to do some massive conspiracy hand-waving, can we at least have some evidence or first-hand experience?
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I don't expect them to make data available on their lobbying efforts to do so. They're not stupid to make it obvious.
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I find it difficult to believe that what's best for the environment just so happens to be in the best interest of car manufacturers with patents.
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I like to know how things work. I hate that I can build, repair or modify a computer easily and cheaply, but when my check engine light comes on, I'm helpless.
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Or maybe even a freedom to tamper.
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Is it really too much trouble to read the article before commenting?
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software for auto workshop
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