Swedish Judge In Charge Of Determining Bias Of Pirate Bay Judge Removed... For Bias
from the but-why-did-this-happen-in-the-first-place? dept
A few folks have sent in various version of this story about how the judge assigned to review whether or not the original judge in The Pirate Bay trial was biased, by belonging to two separate groups in favor of stronger copyright laws, has herself been removed from the case because she belonged to the same two groups. This raises all sorts of questions -- including how the hell she was put in charge of the review in the first place. Did no one think to ask if she was in the same groups? Or did she not volunteer the info when handed the case? In the meantime, how difficult is it to find an unbiased judge in Sweden?
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Filed Under: bias, copyright, lawsuits, sweden
Companies: the pirate bay
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Should the judges have fewer rights to assembly than other citizens? Do they not vote? Are they not permitted to have their own views? Would TPB types be singing the same song if the judge they got was a regular downloader that sympathized with them?
Are only judges who are members of the pirate party allowed to try this case?
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Binary thinking
One could be for Kristdemokraterna or Folkpartiet Liberalerna and have no particular bias or prejudgment about the Pirate Party.
Lastly, it is my opinion after having worked in Sweden, and with numerous Swedes, that they are not really very much into polarization like Americans are. So again it is not likely that the entire country of Sweden is either for or against the Pirate Party. Much of the country is probably observing with interest, and waiting for a consensus to emerge (that is more Swede-like IMO).
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If the RIAA/MPAA type groups weren't actively paying legislatures (including indirectly and in non-monetary/material ways) and having their lobbyists push all this weird legislation, they'd be able to adapt to the situation and flourish.
In the mean time, their near sightedness is hurting the consumer, the artist, and themselves and the more they struggle the worse its going to be to fix the problem.
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I agree, most of the judges are likely in the middle. yet, we are already seeing 2 judges who apparently fail the test at one end, so shouldn't we also test the next one for both?
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I mean, yes, you're right that neither side of the spectrum should get away with this type of thing, but when's the last time you heard of IP trial judge being biased in favor of infringers in that they all belonged to the same club and gave each other reach arounds between cuban cigars and tennis matches?
"most of the judges are likely in the middle. yet, we are already seeing 2 judges who apparently fail the test at one end, so shouldn't we also test the next one for both?"
I think you're missing the point here, or at least the point that is glaring to me. If most of the judges are in the middle, how likely is it that an impartial judicial selection would produce two such biased judges in a row?
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If the judge were a member of an organization whose stated goal was to 'keep copyright stable because we think it's at the right balance' that would be a different matter entirely.
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So in reality, you are no better than the RIAA.
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Revisionist history
That might be what you are saying *now*, but that is not at all what you said at the outset. You write well and seem to be literate, so I am forced to conclude that your revisionist history (regarding your own comments) is more likely the result of intellectual dishonesty than it is a failure to express yourself clearly.
I applaud your brief, if dishonest, attempt to de-polarize, but I see just two comments below that you revert to type quickly enough.
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Re: Revisionist history
"As soon as the "pirate party" came into being, it pretty much removed the chance of getting anyone totally unbiased in the discussion, because politically you have to be for or against them as a result. They have made piracy a public issue, and pretty much everyone ends up having to choose sides."
Either you are a supporter of the pirate party, or you are a support of some other party. Right there could be enough reason to call bias, as any one of those parties might say "we oppose the pirate party's stand on piracy".
The only way to avoid bias at that level would be to not vote, to not be a member of a political party, not make donations, not support any candidates, etc.
Now, not being 100% up on Swedish politics (most of my experiences with Swedish people have been either the swedish university girls volleyball team or listening to the swedish chef on the muppet show), I am more than willing to accept that idea that some of these political parties have not formulated a pro or anti-piracy stance. So there is potential for a neutral ground in the middle. Thus we get to:
"I am only saying that if we are going to use some sort of association litimus test for "can't be the judge because he is pro-copyright", then there should be some sort of limitus test to the other end."
In the same manner that we determine that the current judge(s) are no good because of membership in organizations that are supporting of copyright, should we also not look at the other end? The opposite of supporting copyright is breaking it, so that would be things like being a member of the Pirate Party, regularly accessing TPB, using P2P, having a collection of "infringing" music or movies, etc. Perhaps a family member is an active file trader, etc.
Membership in the Pirate Party (or being an active supporter of the party) would be a pretty clear conflict, I think. Because the Pirate Party has politicized this single issue, the entire politics of Sweden are connected.
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Re: Re: Revisionist history
"As soon as the "pirate party" came into being, it pretty much removed the chance of getting anyone totally unbiased in the discussion, because politically you have to be for or against them as a result"
The article had as a subject the bias of judges handling the Pirate Bay case.
You made a clear statement that "pretty much" all judges...
("anyone" in this case being equivalent to "any judge" because the article was not discussing the bias of anyone but judges, so your statement either a) applied to judges specifically or b)was irrelevant to the article upon which you were commenting. You tell me which.)
...in Sweden would be biased *because* they would have to be politically for or against the Pirate Party.
I maintain that it should be quite possible to find a judge in Sweden who is neither for nor against the Pirate Party.
For one thing, the existence of a political party does not guarantee that one is for or against it. One could quite well be indifferent to it.
For another thing, to the extent that I know the Swedes, they are like Goldilocks: they very much prefer "just right" to either too big or too small. In fact there is a special word in Swedish for it: Lagom.
Your revised statement introduced the totally new concept that in fact it might be possible to find an unbiased judge and that in testing for bias one should search for pro and con both. Nice idea, but not what you said at the outset.
By the way, it is spelled "litmus".
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What happens if the next judge is a regular PB user? What happens if he is a seeder for movies or music? What happens if his son and daughter are 5 gig a day downloaders, and she watches the pirated movies at night?
Do you see the point? If you are going to say "the current judge is biases because he is in a group that is pro-copyright", how do you define the other end of that "the current judge views movies downloaded online from torrent sites"?
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yes, we see the point. and the 'other end' is if the judge is a member of a pro-downloading group, duh. obviously not everyone who is pro-copyright is a member of a group in support of it, just as not everyone who is 'pro-downloading' is in a group in support of that.
so in reality, how will we know if the guy who replaces his downloads or not? we don't. just because he isn't a member of a pro-copyright lobbying group doesn't mean that he's automatically a 'downloader.'
and all that aside, it's irrelevant - your logic is that since you don't feel that downloaders are members of groups supporting their cause, we should ignore the groups that might make a judge seem biased since, you know, it's not fair. except that's ridiculous, as there are groups a judge could be a part of that would signify he's very likely pro-download. just as a judge who isn't a member of any lobbying group could very easily be pro-copyright 'in disguise,' as you seem to be putting it.
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It is likely that the replacement falls in the middle and everything is okay - but how do you check for someone being anti-copyright? Actions? Memberships? Words?
It is a question fo fairness.
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Good you found me
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Uh, no.
They have made piracy a public issue, and pretty much everyone ends up having to choose sides.
Uh, no.
Are only judges who are members of the pirate party allowed to try this case?
No, they would be equally as biased and disqualified as well. No one has suggested otherwise.
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So far, only biased judges have been allowed.
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And shouldn't judges accused of wrong doing be allowed to try themselves? After all, who would know more about the case? No, that's just stupid.
Would TPB types be singing the same song if the judge they got was a regular downloader that sympathized with them?
The entertainment companies have got enough govt. officials in their pocket to keep that from happening in the first place. But if it did, you can be sure they would get a new trial more quickly than TPB could ever dream of.
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Re: Um no
For instance, lets say you were trying to the Republican party for corruption. Would you think a judge who was a member of not just the Democratic party, but a member of united Atheist against Republicans or something..
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Re:
See the l0veli lakes
The W0nderful teleph0ne system
And mani interesting furry animals
Including the majestic m00se
A M00se once bit my sister ...
No realli! She was Karving her initials on the m00se
with the sharpened end of an interspace t00thbrush given
by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and
star of many Norwegian m0vies: "The H0t Hands of an Oslo
Dentist", "Fillings of Passion", "The Huge M0lars of Horst
Nordfink".
Mynd you, m00se bites Kan be pretty nasti ...
No disrespect intended to "RALPH" The Wonder Llama
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There are more than two camps you know?
Simple, He/She gets removed same as previous ones
You seem to think there are only two groups in existance "pro copyright" or "pro torrent" with no one in between when in fact majority of the people actually belong to neither
The problem here though seems to be Pro Copyright groups seem to have been actively pushing to get the judiciary "into their pockets" and now they have a problem finding someone who is really independent
If they don't find someone soon can see some new Code of conduct rules limiting amount/type of groups Judges can be members of
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Competition?
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If it's anything like the US, the judge was chosen by random via a blind draw. The blind draw is done to avoid judge/forum shopping. There is not a panel of judges choosing which judge gets a particular case, because such a system would be gamed.
The random/blind draw is not perfect, but as shown here, any problems of bias can be corrected.
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Hahhahahahahaha...oh, you were serious.
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Inflamatory
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Re: Inflamatory
Sharing is not about socialism or communism, which are state-centralized methods of dictating (to varying degrees) private sector policies and nationalizing industries. Further, both systems fundamentally give central governments more control over solving the problem of scarcity.
While I agree making a copy should not be called piracy as there is not deprivation of an 'original,' you are going out of your way to replace said term with another wildly inaccurate one.
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Re: Inflamatory
Set yer data free in the datademocracy!!!!
Come on now children sing along:
Set yer data free in the datademocracy
Set yer data free in the datademocracy
Set yer data free in the datademocracy
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Re: Inflamatory
Why can't we come up with a less inflammatory term than piracy -- like, say 'Datacommunism'. Or if that is still too dramatic perhaps 'Datasocialism'.
How about "physics?" As in, it's now trivially easy to make copies. So maybe, perhaps, companies that are fundamentally about distribution are no longer the solution to an increasingly unimportant 'problem.'
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Re: Inflamatory
Sharing.
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Re: Inflamatory
Could be shortened to:
CI; or
Coin;
Copyin;
Cin (as in Sin ;) )
`fringement;
Cement;
...
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This isn't black and white
The judge doesn't need to be at the other end of the spectrum, and in fact shouldn't. A judge that's a member of the Pirate Party would similarly suffer the same accusations of bias. All the Swedes need to do is find a judge who has no ties to either RIAA, MPAA, et. al. and without ties to the Pirate Party or TPB. One would think that wouldn't be too hard to do. Their philosophical beliefs regarding piracy shouldn't enter into the discussion at all because, as a judge, it's expected not to influence their decision anyway. Obviously a public supporter of either group with no real ties will still be seen as biased, but that bias is still less influential than being on the same pro-copyright committee as three of the prosecutors.
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Monty Python
"The directors of the firm hired to continue the credits after the other
people had been sacked, wish it to be known that they have just been
sacked.
The credits have been completed in an entirely different style at
great expense and at the last minute."
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Random selection
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Re: First post
No one has said the next judge should be part of the Pirate Party but just because they are not a member of the RIAA it doesn't mean they are a member of the Pirate party or a supporter of copyright infringement.
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Biassed judges all over
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