Amanda Palmer Connects With Fans, Gives 'Em A Reason To Buy... And Makes $19k In 10 Hours
from the that's-the-way-to-do-it dept
We keep talking about artists who are connecting with fans, and giving them a reason to buy, and it seems like every day we hear of more and more new and creative ways that artists are doing this -- even as the naysayers stop by daily to insist it's impossible for such things to scale. It's a blast to see it scale more and more every day and prove them wrong. The latest example comes from Amanda Palmer -- who we've written about a few times before. She's the singer who has been fighting with her major record label (Warner Music's Roadrunner) for not just being a pain to deal with, but for making it harder for her to both connect with fans and give them reasons to buy. For example, she got caught in Warner's stubborn decision to fight YouTube over payments, and had all her videos taken down from YouTube against her wishes. So, at a concert, she told fans to upload the video to YouTube as she sang a song begging her label to drop her.But, even as she's stuck on the major label, she's shown that by connecting with fans and giving them a reason to buy, they absolutely will support her. Back in April, we wrote about how she got her fans to help support the backup dancers on the tour, since they had no money to pay them, but the fans came through with money/food/lodging.
However, now she's going much further, much of it using Twitter to closely connect with fans. She recently explained three separate experiments, all done on a whim this month, which allowed her to bring in $19,000, and all of which show those same basic characteristics: connect with fans and give them a reason to buy. The story is so good that I ended up including the whole thing, because it's too good not to read -- but check out Amanda's site directly.
There are so many different examples buried in there of both connecting with fans and giving them a reason to buy, it's worth reading multiple times. So, go on, naysayers in the comments. Point out, yet again, why this is the exception, and explain why other artists can never do their own creative means of connecting with fans and giving them a reason to buy. We'll chuckle, and watch as more and more figure it out.this story has just been blowing people’s minds so i figures i should write it down.
1.
FRIDAY NIGHT LOSERS T-SHIRT, $11,000about a month ago, i was at home on a friday night (loser that i often am when i’m not touring, i almost never go out) and was, of course, on my mac, shifting between emails, links and occasionally doing some dishes and packing for a trip the next day. just a usual friday-night-rock-star-multi-tasking extravaganza.
i twitter whenever i’m online, i love the way it gives me a direct line of communication with my fans and friends.
i had already seen the power of twitter while touring…using twitter i’d gathered crowds of sometimes 200 fans with a DAY’S notice to come out and meet me in public spaces (parks, mostly) where i would play ukulele, sign, hug, take pictures, eat cake, and generally hang out and connect. this was especially helpful in the cities where we’d been unable to book all-ages gigs and there were crushed teenagers who were really grateful to have a shot at connecting with me & the community of amanda/dolls fans.
i’d also been using twitter to organize ACTUAL last-minute gigs…i twittered a secret gig in LA one morning and about 350 folks showed up 5 hours later at a warehouse space….i played piano, filmed by current.tv, and then (different camera crew) did an interview with afterellen.com.
the important thing to undertsand here is that the fans were never part of the plan..,i basically just INVITED my fans to a press day, the press didnt’ plan it…i did.
i was going to be playing in an empty room and doing q&a with afterellen on a coach with only the camera watching.
it was like….why not tell people and do this in a warehouse instead of a hotel lobby or a blank studio? so i did.it cost me almost nothing. the fans were psyched.
but back to the bigger, cooler story….
so there i am, alone on friday night and i make a joke on twitter (which goes out to whichever of my 30,000 followers are online):
“i hereby call THE LOSERS OF FRIDAY NIGHT ON THEIR COMPUTERS to ORDER, motherfucker.”
9:15 PM May 15th from webone thing led to another, and the next thing you know there were thousands of us and we’d become the #1 topic trend on twitter.
zoe keating described it as a “virtual flash mob”.the way twitter works (if you don’t have it) is that certain topics can include a hashtag (#) and if a gazillion people start making posts that include that hashtag, the topic will zoom up the charts of what people are currently discussing. it’s a cool feature.
so anyway, there we were, virtually hanging out on twitter on a friday night. very pleased with ourselves for being such a large group, and cracking jokes.
how do you “hang out” on the internet? well, we collectively came up with a list of things that the government should do for us (free government-issued sweatpants, pizza and ponies, no tax on coffee), AND created a t-shirt.
thank god my web guy sean was awake and being a loser with me on friday night because he throw up the webpage WHILE we were having our twitter party and people started ordering the shirts - that i designed in SHARPIE in realtime) and a slogan that someone suggested: “DON’T STAND UP FOR WHAT’S RIGHT, STAY IN FOR WHAT’S WRONG”. neil gaiman and wil wheaton joined our party. the fdnas felt super-special.by the end of the night, we’d sold 200 shirts off the quickie site (paypal only) that sean had set up.
i blogged the whole story the next day and in total, in the matter of a few days, we sold over 400 shirts, for $25/ea.we ended up grossing OVER $11,000 on the shirts.
my assistant beth had the shirts printed up ASAP and mailed them from her apartment.total made on twitter in two hours = $11,000.
total made from my huge-ass ben-folds produced-major-label solo album this year = $02.
WEBCAST AUCTION, $6000a few nights after that, i blogged and twittered, announcing a “webcast auction” from my apartment.
it went from 6 pm - 9 pm, my assitant beth sat at my side and kept her eyes on incoming bids and twitter feed.
while we hocked weird goods, i sang songs and answered questions from fans. we wore kimonos and drank wine. it was a blast.people on twitter who were tuned in re-tweeted to other fans. the word spread that it was a fun place to be and watch.
we had, at peak, about 2000 people watching the webcast.at the suggestion of a fan early in the webcastm anyone could, on demand, send us $20 via paypal and we would chew,
sign and mail them a postcard. we sold about 70, and we read all those names at the end of the webcast and thanked those
people for supporting us. here’s how the sales broke down:all the items were signed by moi and hand-packed by beth and kayla._ the items and highest bidders were as follows:_ hilary, ukulele used on the european tour: $640 _jake, “guitar hero” plastic guitar controller used in album promo shoot: $250_ lary b, copy neo2 magazine, plus two post-war trade slap-bracelets & a crime-photo set: $230_ devi, glass dildo, with subtley-sordid backstory: $560 _liz b., “hipsters ruin everything” t-shirt, made by blake (get your very own here!!!!): $155.55_shannon m., my bill bryson book, a short history of neary everything: $280_ nikki, huge metal “the establishment” sign, used at rothbury festival for the circus tent i curated: $450 _j.r., purple velvet “A” dress used in the dresden dolls coin-operated boy video shoot: $400_ jessie & alan: who killed amanda palmer vinyl: $100_ nikki: wine bottle, auctioned BY REQUEST!!! $320 _shannon w., torn-to-shit vintage stockings used in the who killed amanda palmer/ michael pope video series: $200 _jodi,
school-note-book break-up letter, written to amanda from jonas woolverton in 7th grade (i still haven’t emailed him about that….): $250_ daryl, ANOTHER wine bottle, by request, that we had LYING AROUND: $320
and…………..
reto emailed, having barely missed the wine bottle, and asked us to send him “something funny” for $129.99. we sent a heath ledger statuette.total made on twitter in 3 hours, including the postcards, was over $6000.
again, total made on my major-label solo album this year: $03.
TWITTER DONATION-ONLY GIG, $1800a few days later, i twittered a guest-list only event in a recording studio in boston, to take place a week later.
the gig lasted about 5 hours, all told, with soundcheck and signing. i took mostly requests and we had a grand old time.
first come, first served. the first 200 people to ask got in, for free. i asked for donations and made about $2200 in cash.
i gave $400 back to the studio for the space and the help. we sold some weird merch. i think we should call it an even 2k.total made at last-minute secret twitter gig, in about 5 hours = $2000
major-label record blah blah blah = $0…..and for fun, and to thank my fans for being awesome, i’ve been doing some twitter perfomance art, including answering their questions by magic-markering my body until it’s covered, and displaying time-lapse make-up application advice….but that’s another story.
TOTAL MADE THIS MONTH USING TWITTER = $19,000
TOTAL MADE FROM 30,000 RECORD SALES = ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.turn on, tune in, get dropped!!!!!
love,
amanda fucking palmer
http://www.amandapalmer.net
http://www.dresdendolls.com
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Filed Under: amanda palmer, connect with fans, reason to buy
Reader Comments
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If it weren't for the MAJOR RECORD LABEL sinking ALL THAT MONEY into PROMOTION AND ADVERTISING to make her a RECOGNIZED NAME on that Twitter thingie all over the Intertubes, she certainly wouldn't have been able to get all those people to follow her and buy lots of T-shirts.
Right?
/end sarcasm
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If not, well, I guess tonight I am going to chew on postcards and expect to make ten grand. Let me know where I can send your t-shirt, and I'll give you paypal information.
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Re:
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why others can't do these examples
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TOTAL MADE FROM 30,000 RECORD SALES = ABSOLUTELY NOTHING."
She fails at math.
Without the 30,000 sales (and as a result, 30,000 fans) she would be twittering to herself alone.
Symbiotic relationship, A cannot exist with B.
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Re: Not Quite
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Re:
Labels need artists to be successful, but the reverse is no longer true.
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While it may be "good," it's also unreadable because Palmer has the writing skills of an 11 year old girl.
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Good for Amanda, Sucks to be her "friends"
To bad that some of the folks, to whom I am sure she refers to as "friends", who are also living or dying by her album sales, haven't seen a dime.
Why has she not gotten paid for her 30,000 album sales? Because she didn't pay to produce her album, and the record lable, that did pay, wants to be able to recoup its investment in her. Who is paying the guitarists, drummers, back-up singers, sound technicians, recording techs, mixing techs, graphic artists, layout designers, etc. that helped her get an album that is worthy of being sold? Odds are, not Amanda.
So while I do not think that everything the record labels do is right, unless she wants to pay for the album production, she should have to let the record label get first dibs on the proceeds. Face it, 30k of ablum sales is not a lot in todays mass-media world.
If she wants to go on her own for the next album, good for her. But good luck getting 1/10th the support she has now unless she figures out how to start paying people in advance of the first dollar of profit.
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Re: Re:
It's the same old story: You can't just look at today, you have to look at how the people got there. Even Mike's poster child Corey Smith got where he was when he won a competition that got him a record released and distributes, that got picked up by college radio. Without it, he would still be plunking away in the basement, no matter what level of talent he might have.
Something happens to get these people well enough known to attract a crowd. It is usually through a record deal that it happens.
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More Math
Is she including the advance against royalties that typically form the initial payment? It's quite possible (leaving out normal record company accounting shenanigans) that even at the gross level of her royalty rate, that 30,000 copies hasn't earned out in royalties the initial payment. If that's so, she's already been paid, in advance, for those sales.
Now, I certainly admire and applaud her creativity thinking up things to sell (or, as Mike puts it "giving fans a reason to buy"), but a lot of this doesn't seem really sustainable and the $19,000 "total" doesn't account for any other costs.
$11,000 selling t-shirts (less the cost of the shirts, printing, shipping, and time/labor of her assistant to do all of that). Likely that the net here is no greater than 60% and probably less. So lets call that $6,000. Plus, this seems to be a one-off, which may be repeatable but only time will tell.
$6,000 selling random stuff from her apartment (less shipping and time/labor of two assistants). She'll have to get a lot more stuff to auction if this is to be sustainable. Let's be generous and knock off only $500 for labor and shipping. That's $5,500.
$2,000 from donation-only concert. This is the only one she reports a "net" on (payment for studio time). And the only one that is likely to be sustainable.
These experiments are great and it's great that the artists are making money. But let's not overhype the math.
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@ Dr. F. Crane
/end troll feeding
Nobody connected with this site has been advocating a copycat approach to forging a relationship with their fans, except for the brain-dead keyboard-equipped simpletons who can't grasp the concept of individual effort. What works for one is not guaranteed to work for another, and Mike has never said one particular approach is guaranteed to work for everyone. What he does is hold up examples of methods that are working for a particular artist, and urge others to find WHAT WORKS FOR THEM with their fans.
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Symbiotic relationships & getting rich on the work of others...
As for Amanda, I think she should find a way to break the contract. As the past year has shown us, contracts really mean nothing when you want them not to (actually, the last millenium has shown us that contracts mean nothing when there are big 'power' differences between the parties).
Looks to me like she's off & running & has paid more than her fair share of dues (at least to Warner). Good luck AP!
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I still don't buy it
How much did the record label spend promoting the album (btw, thats why she got $0 for it, cause they were recouping recording and probably promotional costs). Also, who did she get to open for because she had a relationship with that record company. Where did the money come from to pay for the recording sessions, her living expenses, possibly her tour support?
I'm still not going to buy the major labels are evil empires argument until you show me an artist who has made a substantial amount of money without one.
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Re:
Note that the Friday Night Losers flash-mob really had nothing to do with her music; she had the tools, and talent, available to connect with "Friends" (vs fans) and collectively produced the T-shirt which gave them a reason to buy (rtb). I suspect as this model goes forward, Fans=Friends, and the "Masnick/Reznor equation" [not sure who wants the credit for it!] (cwF+rtb=$$$) will become ubiquitous as a business model.
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Re: Re:
Perhaps Palmer would not be as big as she is now without the label. But now? Now the label needs her for money and she clearly does not need the label. This is aggravated by the fact that the business deal between the two is clearly very bad from Palmer's standpoint.
It would be in the label's best interest to position itself to help further Palmer's career by working WITH her instead of against her. By fighting her, Palmer will cut them off eventually, and likely go on with a successful career.
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also
She feigns cleverness with random "indie culture" references and dresses up loser cynicism with that failed drama student manner of over-singing.
Tasteless, hipster trash.
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Re: Re: Re:
"
It would be in the label's best interest to position itself to help further Palmer's career by working WITH her instead of against her. By fighting her, Palmer will cut them off eventually, and likely go on with a successful career."
Actually, it would seem that AP is trying hard not work with her label, perhaps they aren't so interested in her off the wall ideas considering how few albums she is really selling. I wouldn't be shocked to find that the label is in the hole on this record, which she in fact got her advance money already.
It is unfortunate that the whole story isn't being told, only the parts that make Mike look like a guru.
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Who's the cancer?
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Nay sayers
This made me laugh. We self-release our first film, Marie and Jack: A Hardcore Love Story, back in 2003, but only after being rejected by every distributor, film festival, everyone we sent a copy too. "Too much talking" "Too much sex" "Too hardcore" "Too softcore" "price point too high" we heard every reason why people wouldn't buy our film.
Here in 2009 we are about to release our 7th film, and we make enough money to pay for our house in East Hampton, our apt in NYC, health insurance, savings, and all the other things you want to have by the time you get to be in your 40s.
Of course now we hear all the same reason we heard before -- "Too much talking" "Too much sex" "Too hardcore" "Too softcore" "price point too high" -- but now their the reasons that our approach works and why it won't work for other people.
Fine, whatever. I'm spending August on our 40 foot sloop with my wife and kids while people buy our DVDs. And I'll be twitting about it and blogging about it, and thanking our fans for making it possible for my wife and I to give our family such a wonderful life doing work we love.
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I have to meet this gurl ....
Thanks again .... this place is full of / gives me wonderful ideas
note 188) artists hating the major labels are an asset, ask them for their experiences with the major labels.
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more....
for the record, i actually fronted ALL of the money for this record, because the label wasn't interested in supporting the effort.
they had a solo stranglehold on me under the dolls contract, basically had the right of first refusal for whatever i came up with. i knew that the record with ben would be brilliant and that if they refused it, i'd asily make the money back putting it out on my own. so i put in my own 200k (much of it borrowed) to make the record. the label picked it up, but i was never fully paid back (long, vil and complicated), which added insult to injury when they did FUCK all to promote the record.
fyi.
would be happy to answer any other questions, i think this site is fantastic.
x
afp
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Re: Nay sayers
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Re: Good for Amanda, Sucks to be her "friends"
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Hello!
Hello Amanda! I applaud you in your efforts to do things on your own terms and by your own steam. I too share this entrepreneurial spirit. Don't let the bastards get you down, and don't EVER let anyone tell you what you CAN'T do. "Can't" is just another word for "I'm too lazy to figure out way to make it work." You'll see a lot of that on this site from the naysayers. Ignore them.
Keep on keeping on, and good luck!
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To the people claiming the record labels are trying to recoup their costs...
1. A big part of why she's pissed off is THEY DIDN'T MARKET HER ALBUM. They basically decided that it wasn't worth their effort to actually try to sell the damn thing. On top of that they're trying to change her sound and lyrics from what I heard.
2. She started very grass-roots through live performances and on smaller indie labels. It wasn't until after Dresden Doll's big cd (self titled) was released did she sign with Roadrunner records. So she already had the following before the big record labels were even involved. In fact she won a competition for a radio station in the region before signing with the record label. The criteria for the competition is having a song on the radio, based in Boston and not signed to a major label.
To put it simply she probably would have gotten this popular with or without the record label.
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Re: Good for Amanda, Sucks to be her "friends"
An Apple computer in capable hands seems to be a fairly capable recording studio these days. The budget for that can't be too high.
Of course, you do need some combination of decent music, showmanship, or hotness, and the artist needs to provide that.
Labels: not needed for distribution
Labels: not needed for production
Labels: not needed for creation of music
Labels: needed at all?
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Re: also
Music and style appreciation are matters of taste, thus highly subjective, and utterly irrelevant to the discussion here.
Techdirt never talks about "liking" the music. It's strictly about the technology and business.
I've never heard Plummer's music, nor Trent Reznor's, nor most of the musicians discussed at Techdirt, and one need not do so to participate in the discussions. Thus site isn't written by music fans or music critics.
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I'd rather see my favorite bands perform music....and preferably at shows....not on my computer for the highest bidder. I dont care to buy a postcard they once touched while sloshed.
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Re: more....
You create the music.
You front the money to record it.
You promote it with appearances, and through connecting with your fans.
And 30k copies are sold, while the label keeps all the proceeds, leaving you to fend for yourself.
I sure would like the commenters above, like Bob, JAy, and Lostsailor, to update their comments given these new facts.
Tell us again how the label is essential to Amanda's success?
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Re: more....
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@33 by Logo
I agree with your conclusion about afp's inevitable popularity, too. While I seldom listen to commercial music (auditory problems), there seems to be a willing market for anyone (in any style) who is able to connect with their fans; through the lyrics, the music, the back story, or any of dozens of other community-building methods.
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Suicide by blog comment
The listener pool her music is marketed to is going to buy stuff. She is new & the fact she is looking at other revenue methods is good. Record label did it's marketing job and putting advance money out is like book deals; some are better than others.
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Re: Re: Nay sayers
Enjoy your cubicle and your daydreams.
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Re:
2 - You are contradicting yourself here. She made her made as a member of the dolls, not of herself alone. That by itself is a head start. So she starts off with all the fan base built up from the Dolls, the record deal there, and then signs a solo deal (apparently without reading the contract) and spends 200k on a record that has "discount bin" all over it. Then she gets pissed off at the record company?
It's one of the things I am noticing around here too, the only real "success" stories that keep coming up are acts that aren't all that commercial to start with.
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Some quick facts that some should consider
For example, AC commented
"The problem? At the start of the relationship, AP was the cancer, the sink hole that the record label took a risk on, and luckily for them it panned out (although 30k sales might still leave them in the hole on the process)."
Now this assumes that at the beginning, Amanda provided nothing in the bargain while Roadrunner provided everything. Wrong. Did the label write the songs? Did the label develop her live act? Did the label practice and sacrifice the time and energy to build her abilities as a musician? A contract was signed where Amanda provided these assets to the label for an unknown amount in advance and tour support which should mean they are partners if the contract was fair. This means both parties should share the risk, cost and benefits. The way traditional deals are set up, this is not the case. Essentially, all costs (studio, promo, etc) are charged back to the artist only, not to the partnership and once the costs are recouped, what should be a 50/50 split in profits is really a "lets screw the artist and give a them pittance while the label keeps the lion's share" situation. Who is really the leech again?
2.Ac also wrote..
"Actually, it would seem that AP is trying hard not work with her label, perhaps they aren't so interested in her off the wall ideas considering how few albums she is really selling."
Maybe perhaps there are other issues at play here. Hmm let me google...
http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/11/female_artists_1 from the site
"Incredibly cool and beautiful singer Amanda Palmer (of Dresden Dolls fame) has been forced to search for a new record label after Roadrunner refused to promote her latest single, video and album. Why? Because she refused to let them remove shots of her “fat” belly from the video for Leeds United (see above), and is therefore “uncommercial”. This comes from a metal label where, I have it on good authority, “you can count the number of women on the fingers of one hand and most of the people on the label are decidedly chunky hairy dudes”. Amanda’s fans are quite rightly outraged by this shoddy, sexist behaviour and have begun a Rebellyon, posting pictures of their own bellies on fan forum Shadowbox and sending them to Roadrunner in protest"
Do you wonder why she wouldn't want to work with this label? Also, how many more sales would be logged if the label hadn't refused to promote this album? It sounds like Amanda is doing everything(promotion, tour support, etc) herself in spite of what may be a breach of contract by Roadrunner. Again, I ask, who is really the leech?
3.JAy wrote
"Because she didn't pay to produce her album, and the record lable, that did pay, wants to be able to recoup its investment in her. Who is paying the guitarists, drummers, back-up singers, sound technicians, recording techs, mixing techs, graphic artists, layout designers, etc. that helped her get an album that is worthy of being sold? Odds are, not Amanda."
and
"But good luck getting 1/10th the support she has now unless she figures out how to start paying people in advance of the first dollar of profit"
Bob wrote
"How much did the record label spend promoting the album (btw, thats why she got $0 for it, cause they were recouping recording and probably promotional costs). Also, who did she get to open for because she had a relationship with that record company. Where did the money come from to pay for the recording sessions, her living expenses, possibly her tour support?"
Um 1/10th of nothing(see above) is equal to 100 percent of nothing. Also, it appears that Amanda is paying for her own dancers by appealing to the fans http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2009/04/05/e-mail-of-the-day-14/. Tour Musicians are paid from tour proceeds. Studio musicians, studio time, and Ben Folds are paid through the royalties and *gasp* the advance that Amanda received that you erroneously count as payment for her work.
This stuff is not hard to find...
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Re: Some quick facts that some should consider
Amanda Palmer refused to go along with the record company plans to market her and her album on the basis of them trying to edit her gut out of a video - and for that, and that alone, she wants to walk?
Prima-f-ing-donna.
"Now this assumes that at the beginning, Amanda provided nothing in the bargain while Roadrunner provided everything. Wrong. Did the label write the songs? Did the label develop her live act? Did the label practice and sacrifice the time and energy to build her abilities as a musician?"
This is great. Do you know how many truly excellent baseball and football players are stocking shelves or working in warehouses? How many truly gifted musicians work in insurance offices during the day and play piano only for the family holiday gatherings?
It is EXACTLY her part of the deal to learn how to play, to have the schtick, to be the artist, to sweat bullets learning how to play her instruments properly, etc.
It's the record company's job to market her stuff, to get it widely distributed, and to get her known through intense A&R, marketing, and yes, videos that will appeal to a wide audience. Wanting to edit her gut out of a video shouldn't be a deal breaker - but things like that are important in developing a marketable image for a performer. If the performer is going to be an ass over something as simple as that, I can't imagine how much of a beeyach she was about other stuff.
"Um 1/10th of nothing(see above) is equal to 100 percent of nothing. Also, it appears that Amanda is paying for her own dancers by appealing to the fans http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2009/04/05/e-mail-of-the-day-14/. Tour Musicians are paid from tour proceeds. Studio musicians, studio time, and Ben Folds are paid through the royalties and *gasp* the advance that Amanda received that you erroneously count as payment for her work."
Wait, you said the record company paid for nothing, yet she haad an advance? Please, do explain.
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Amanda answered the unknown in the equation
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Hyperlinks are your friends, no need to duplicate information (unless of course you are trying to get more SEO value from the content - did Amanda give you permission?)
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Re: Re: also
Her music doesn't particularly fall into the standard niches, which means it is already very hard to get airplay or get exposure though normal commercial media. The only chance that it works normally is if the artist is so significantly special that they can "bust out" their own market place. For the most part, that doesn't happen.
It is a discussion of marketing, nothing more.
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Re: Re: Some quick facts that some should consider
I did NOT say the label paid for nothing, what I said is that we don't know the details of Amanda's particular deal and thereby should not make uneducated assumptions. What I outlined later in the post is the traditional (except for the dancers, where there was specific data)process by which various people in the industry got paid since it seemed you and others were confused about the facts due to your claims. Now that AFP herself has revealed more facts that dispute your previous uneducated assumptions, what have you to say to that?
you wrote "It is EXACTLY her part of the deal to learn how to play, to have the schtick, to be the artist, to sweat bullets learning how to play her instruments properly, etc."
I agree with you here, however, what I disagree with is the value placed on these abilities vs the labels input(money, promo,etc) within a traditional deal. Now that Amanda given more data, this point is moot as this was worse than even that situation. (the label failed its part of the bargain by pulling support over trivialities and harming the business deal). You said "but things like that are important in developing a marketable image for a performer." To whom are you marketing to? Shouldn't a label know this? Palmer's fans have spoken very clearly that they don't care what AP's stomach looks like. Do believe it is fair that she essentially did all the work (minus printing and manufacturing the album-again I'm assuming here)while the label keeps all the proceeds?
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Comments are Funny
IT FREAKING WORKS!!!
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Re: Re:
They connected directly with fans using the, then current, technology, and cut out the middle man.
The name of the band eludes me, but as I recall they did quite well. I think they eventually got a notable amount of commercial success.
So, no, it's not just small acts that can do better without a label. Did you intend for your comment to be ironic in light of Mike's closing:
"So, go on, naysayers in the comments. Point out, yet again, why this is the exception, and explain why other artists can never do their own creative means of connecting with fans and giving them a reason to buy. We'll chuckle, and watch as more and more figure it out."
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Re:
If you are pro free market, then how about we just let Amanda Palmer and her fans decide what product they trade.
It's boxed-in thinking like yours (dismissive of what Palmer sells) that keeps the recording industry from seeing other valuable opportunities. Let the market set the price of goods. Recorded music is driven by econ to a price of 0, but drunken postcards are not. So be it.
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Re: Re:
What AP is crowing about here is funny, only because it is sort of a one hit wonder thing. She tries it again next week, and she will attract almost the same crowd, and not as many of them will buy t-shirts (they blew their budget). It isn't a sustainable model, just a one off that happens to work.
Again, it is very important to understand that her record label (mostly as Dresden Dolls) has put time and effort into supporting the act and getting their music out there, and being part of the process that built the fan base. Without the existing fan base built in the traditional manner, AP's whole deal would have been her and 3 people she found in a chat room. Everything that is out there is built on the back of the existing recording industry, and none of the examples cited on Techdirt ever explain how the transition from nobody to somebody would occur in the new music marketplace. It's almost like the dirty little secret is "sign a record deal, get more famous, and then thumb your nose at them on the way out the door, the fans will love it".
"It's boxed-in thinking like yours (dismissive of what Palmer sells) that keeps the recording industry from seeing other valuable opportunities."
No, it's years of business experience that tells me that even a blind mouse occasionally finds cheese. Using isolated cases and attempting to bootstrap a business model on it isn't really how anything is done, Mike knows that (he went to school too), but he doesn't want to discuss that part of what he learned in school, because it doesn't fit the plan.
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Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
I'm fascinated with these discussions, but most of these examples just aren't applicable to most musicians. That's one reason I encourage people to support their local scenes and enjoy the bands around them that play in the local clubs and the local festivals. Most of those musicians will have day jobs rather than making a living in music, but the local musical experience will be rewarding for both the players and the listeners.
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Can we get awy from the TEE SHIRT Thing....
..... merchandising .......
and lets talk george lucas.....
NUFF SAID .... big ole GRIN
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Re:
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Re: Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
I think you're missing the point, Suzanne. No matter how you slice it, from a financial point of view being a musician, artist, filmmaker, whatever is a high risk, lower return proposition; and yes, duh, techdirt is brand burnishing for a company that sell's it's marketing expertise to companies that are substantially less glamourous than the recording industry. Free-basing Trent Reznor is borrowed interest.
But that doesn't mean there are some good ideas here, and working double overtime to "de-bunk" techdirt's case strikes me (a reasonalby successful indie producer/distributor) as just silly.
Maybe the problem is that people want magic bullets, and if you think that's what's being offered here, then yes, all criticisms are valid. CTFRTF is not a magic bullet, and in fact is a prescription for a lot of hard work that probably won't pan out if you're not both talented and lucky. And guess what, most people aren't talented enough to make it as artists, and there's no deciding to be lucky.
But you can decide to work hard. And all this nay saying looks an awful lot like native-born Americans complaining they can't get a break, while immigrants come here and see that here in American they can work 24 hours a day if they want to, while at home they're lucky if they can find 20 hours of work a week.
There is no magic bullet. It took me a year to sell the first 100 copies of my first film. That was spending 4-8 hours a day trying to figure out where the people like me were (people who wanted to sex in a humane and dignified context), and how to convince that my film wasn't just more "amateur porn".
It was hard. And it's going to be hard for any muscian to convince people that they're not just another pretty face and a steel stringed guitar, because let's face it, that's just not that special.
But if what you have is special, or at least special to 1,000 ~10,000 people, CWF/RTB gives a conceptual frame work for building a direct relationship with the people who like what you do and want you to do more.
It is not a magic bullet. If that's what you want, enjoy your day job and your day dreams.
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Re: Re: Good for Amanda, Sucks to be her "friends"
This is works.
After our first two movies, we started shooting on film, which was A LOT more expensive than shooting DV. We defrayed the cost by offering pre-orders at 1/2 price with a 100% no excuse opt out policy. This let us 1) raise much needed finishing fund, 2) gauge demand, 3) stay in touch with our 'stake holders' by giving them updates on the project they were now invested in. Great for our cash flow, great for building buzz, great for connecting with fans.
But it wasn't all sunshine and roses. 99% of the pre-order were patient and supportive. But the 1% made up for the rest, cross and cranky, even though they could have gotten their money back at any time. I guess just the way it is when you work retail.
But it does work.
And think about it. if you you've got people who are so into what you do that they'll let you hold $20 for a year or two (that's how long some of our fans waited for the fifth album) those are real fans. I only wish I had a way to do live performances to capitalize on that!
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Re: Re: Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
Mike's voiced intentions here is to turn the music industry on it's side and pretty much toss it all out. Well, hey, fine. If that is what he wants to do, more power to him - but in doing so, he needs to provide alternatives. If the manager / record label / advance payment / distribution / promotion / sales / profits model is gone, what is it replaced with?
In that void, Mike tosses in stories like this one. Because there is a lack of anything else, it is the assumption of many based on comments here that this is it, this is the new music business. Everything seems connected to t-shirts and miniputt (and now we can add tour garage sales, I guess). There is a total absence of filling the void created by the untimely death of the current music industry.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
Question of scale indeed, and I sometimes wonder what people think they're going to get out of this gig. Again, from the point of view of reasonably successful self-financed, self-distributed filmmaker, a lot of the nay saying sounds like "Yeah, but you're not going to get you a Boeing 707 with the name of your band painted on the tail doing garage sales."
Aside from being our second camera op and artdepartment, my wife also does web design for a handful of clients that have stayed with her since the 1990 heyday of the web.
One of these clients is a woman who is about as big a name on B'way as a person can be. She lives well, but she doesn't have a Boing 707, she as a reasonably nice motorhome, and not even one of those $500,000 band buses you seen on MTV.
Don't confuse fame with forune. If you've making enough money doing your own thing to have a house and health insurance and braces for your kids, you are doing very well indeed. And if you can get those things, or at least get your way along to getting those things doing garage sales and that helps you make music (or films) you love for people who love your music, well then that's a very successful life indeed.
Also, this "business model" thing is really just so much crap. Do you really think the "manager / record label / advance payment / distribution / promotion / sales / profits model" was giving artist anything special? That that was some easy route to fame and fortune? Is wasn't. It's not gone cause it was never there, and it doesn't need to be replaced with new model.
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"Do you really think the "manager / record label / advance payment / distribution / promotion / sales / profits model" was giving artist anything special?"
To an extent yes. More than anything, it was something that allowed an artist to perhaps gain some headway, to come out above the background noise and get noticed on a larger stage. It is very unlikely that a piano player / singer from Boston would be internationally known without some sort of marketing and promotion. In the end, it is what seperates bar bands / coffee house plunkers from the guys and girls playing in front of the bigger audiences at the 1000 soft seat venues. Forget the "super big times", just reaching that certain level where you can do more of your own thing comes mostly from that old style system (including all the players that Mike lists here as great examples of the "new business model").
For me it is always a question of scale. There are different sized players in every game, different levels of accomplishment and reward, and artists all have different goals. I get sort of frustrated when I see a discussion that suggests that we should blow off the top levels because they are meaningless full of money grubbers, and replace it with something from the lower levels. Doesn't anyone think that those lower levels will just blossom into the same money grubbing deal that is there now?
Example: Your movies are "successful" for your level. Can you imagine what would happen if you got the full media treatment, 3000 screens in the US, worldwide distribution for your next movie? Would you still be humble Tony COmstock, or would you be the guy swinging at the papparazzi as they try to take a picture of you getting out of your local watering hole at 2 AM? Would you shun the money, or would your next movie have a bigger budget?
Scale - it can happen to anyone, and nature sort of demands it.
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Re:
Example: Your movies are "successful" for your level. Can you imagine what would happen if you got the full media treatment, 3000 screens in the US, worldwide distribution for your next movie? Would you still be humble Tony COmstock, or would you be the guy swinging at the papparazzi as they try to take a picture of you getting out of your local watering hole at 2 AM? Would you shun the money, or would your next movie have a bigger budget?
Well this is a first. I've never ever, ever been called "humble" before. Moving on from that non sequitur.
Again, you are completely missing the point.
Let's take the example of "Blair Witch Project", which got the "full treatment". Where are they now? The full treatment does not mean you end up on a beach in St. Barts drinking fruity drinks with Angelina Jolee while residuals are direct deposited into your bank account.
And if I got "discovered" of course I wouldn't shun the fame or the money, but I'd read the goddamn contract and make sure I wasn't trading money for fame. There's not as much gold at the end of most of those rainbows as you think there is.
In the "traditional business model" (if we have to use that stupid phrase) talent is the fizzy brown liquid you find inside those curvy bottles that come out of the Coca Cola factory. Yes, that brand is everywhere, but how big a percentage of the whole operation do you think is devoted to buying sugar and water? Do you think growing sugar cane for Coca Cola is a route to getting either rich or well-known.
And one thing's for sure, I've got a much better chance of getting "discovered" putting out a profitable film every year than I do chattering on about why CWF/RTB won't work.
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How Film Festivals and Distribution Deals Kill Independent Films: Part 2, A Tale of Two Indies
http://www.comstockfilms.com/blog/tony/2009/02/04/a-tale-of-two-independen-films/
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anecdata
I'm an afp/dresden dolls fan. Not her biggest ever fan, or anything like that. Just a fan.
I first heard Coin Operated Boy on the radio. I loved it. Probably chalk one up to the record company for getting it there. But I think they also get paid for permission to have any of their songs on the radio, if not per song.
Looked it up on youtube, loved the video. Perhaps the record company had something to do with the video. I don't think we can assume either way.
Then I heard of Amanda Palmer, solo artist, on Neil Gaiman's blog. Nothing to do with the record company. He liked her music, was interested in working with her on a book. I looked what she had put on youtube. Liked what I heard. I believe that was all her, not the record company. I eventually realised she was the same person as the Dresden Dolls woman.
Bought a DD album in a shop. The one that was released before she signed with Roadrunner (I only learnt that today, from the comment above). I imagine they had something to do with getting in the shop, but they had nothing to do with the creation.
I heard through social media (don't specifically remember where), not ads, that she was coming to my city. At the gig, I bought the solo album, WKAP, and one from one of the support acts, Zoe Keating (@zoecello). As described above, the record company had little, if anything, to do with the creation of the album. I presume they were involved in the manufacture. I put money in the hat for the dancers.
I heard about her next gig here through social media again, probably Neil Gaiman's blog. Never saw or heard any ads. I took too long to organise a group to go, so the tickets sold out before I got any. But, through NG's blog & twitter, and afp's twitter, I heard about a free event between the two of them (initially just him & I was going to go to it already before she joined in). That event turned from a simple reading of something of NG's to a Who Killed Amanda Palmer event, where he read stories he'd written for the book, she showed photos from it and sang. 500 people at it, many who had probably never heard her before. This was organised between the two of them and the bookshop it was in. Nothing to do with the record company.
Youtube: I've previously embeded videos in my blog, which possibly introduced more people to her. Recently, I tried finding the Coin Operated Boy video to introduce a friend. Couldn't find it. I've since discovered that Google have taken down Warner videos because Warner pissed them off, looking for more money. So it seems to me that the record company are not only not promoting enough, but are actually getting in the way of promoting.
The Rebellyon: Anonymous Coward@47, and anyone else who thinks the label was right to want to cut the video, have you seen it? Please point out to me the frames that make it "unmarketable". In terms of promotion and marketing, let's give this to both of them. I doubt those couple of frames made any difference to the marketability, but the controversy certainly got her some publicity.
And now, here's more people hearing of her, some of whom may like her & end up buying something. That's because she wrote a blog post, not the label.
So who's promoting her? I know I'm just one person, but in my experience, a little bit the record company, a lot AFP, and a lot people who like her.
And it's not just AFP. I heard of Olga Nunes through Neil Gaiman too. As soon as she's selling music, I'm buying some. I'll know, because I follow her on twitter. I heard of Imogen Heap through Zoe Keating & both their twitter accounts. The next album I buy will probably be hers. I would have one already, but I'm weird and like to buy CDs in shops, and haven't seen one yet. Someday, I'd like to have a Lisa Snelling sculpture. Heard of her through NG's blog too. I bought Dave McKean stamps, which I heard about through NG. That's all through blogs, twitter and personal connections. No traditional advertising.
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Re: Re: Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
No, I don't think I am missing the point. I've worked with musicians for eight years. No matter what concept is introduced, it will be copied to such an extent that its initial value will be reduced. Let's say every band now moves into the collectibles market, which seems to be where we are headed. Then you will be able to buy a limited edition item from every band out there. People will only buy and store so many of them. Most will go unpurchased.
Here's a personal example. I used to put up posters for an artist. I'd go to the kiosks around town set up for that purpose. As soon as I put up the posters, within 15 minutes, they would be covered up by someone else putting up posters. If I would then go and put up posters on top of the ones that covered my artist's posters, they'd just get covered up again. At that point I decided postering gave me, at best, 15 minutes of visibility.
If giving away music works, everyone will give away music, and then you just are one in a sea of free music. If the pay-what-you-want model for concerts works, everyone will do it. And on and on.
Each technique offered as a money-making idea will lose value once 2 million bands are doing it. So if we are trying to reinvent the music business and want ideas apply to the 2 million bands that are out there, we need to discuss how all of these ideas will scale. And most of them won't. So a more realistic way to discuss the music business as a whole is to talk about how it is really created and consumed. In most cases, it is by bands who won't make any money but will play for friends and family in local venues.
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Re: Re: Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
No, I don't think I am missing the point. I've worked with musicians for eight years. No matter what concept is introduced, it will be copied to such an extent that its initial value will be reduced. Let's say every band now moves into the collectibles market, which seems to be where we are headed. Then you will be able to buy a limited edition item from every band out there. People will only buy and store so many of them. Most will go unpurchased.
Here's a personal example. I used to put up posters for an artist. I'd go to the kiosks around town set up for that purpose. As soon as I put up the posters, within 15 minutes, they would be covered up by someone else putting up posters. If I would then go and put up posters on top of the ones that covered my artist's posters, they'd just get covered up again. At that point I decided postering gave me, at best, 15 minutes of visibility.
If giving away music works, everyone will give away music, and then you just are one in a sea of free music. If the pay-what-you-want model for concerts works, everyone will do it. And on and on.
Each technique offered as a money-making idea will lose value once 2 million bands are doing it. So if we are trying to reinvent the music business and want ideas apply to the 2 million bands that are out there, we need to discuss how all of these ideas will scale. And most of them won't. So a more realistic way to discuss the music business as a whole is to talk about how it is really created and consumed. In most cases, it is by bands who won't make any money but will play for friends and family in local venues.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
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Isolated examples
Giving examples of a handful of artists who are making money by giving something away for free and selling something else makes for interesting reading, but doesn't really deal with the economics of music, which is dictated primarily by the sheer numbers of artists who keep putting music out in the world. While there may be scarcity of access to some bands, for the most part there is no scarcity in music at all -- you can find all the free recorded music you want. You can find lots of free shows if you want. You can get free swag if you want. And you don't usually need to compromise quality. A variety of bands are giving away great stuff.
So let's celebrate our local bands, pat them on the back for providing us entertainment in our communities, and talk about the money-earning bands as the exception.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
Yes. There are lot more titles now than in the past. Most of them don't sell many copies.
As for shows, as more bands compete for slots on a bill, the amount of money each makes has gone down. If you talk to musicians who have been in the business since the 1970s, most of them will tell you that what they earn per night from a gig hasn't changed in 30-40 years.
The superstars may be making more, but a lot of full-time gigging musicians are making less now, in relative terms.
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Re: Re: Re:
Not at all. What she is "crowing about" is creative marketing and connecting to fans. That is a very general concept with infinite applications. She gives three recent, profitable examples, but she certainly does not suggest that she can just go back the t-shirt well every month. She has been creative, and it has been profitable. If she continues to be creative, she is likely to continue to be profitable. Trying to sell the same t-shirts over and over is not creative, it is boxed-in record-label thinking.
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Re: Isolated examples
Your concern? Your concern?!? What's your stake that you have any "concern" at all?
In any case, the obvious answer to your "concerns" is No Duh.
When in the entire history of commerce has it ever been possible to make a premium doing something that anyone else and everyone else is doing? You want to talk about isolated instances? The fact that there are a handful of people flying around on their own personal Boeing 707s doesn't mean that going into the arts is a route to becoming rich.
You want to celebrate local bands full of cats who have to keep a day job to do their thing? Great. CWF/RTB is of no real value to hobbiest, so don't worry about it.
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Re: also
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
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Re: Re: Isolated examples
I work with musicians. I'm always looking for ways to help them make a living at this.
I've worked with everyone from those who are talented but who are struggling to make a living, to an artist who does everything herself and grosses a six figure income every year, to a major label band that sold several million copies of their last album.
I think Amanda Palmer is great and I've cited her a number of times as an example of someone who knows how to connect with her fans. But I think she is uniquely creative and enjoys the fan interaction. Most musicians aren't like her and I don't think her model with work for them.
I would say that the bands that I know who have been signed to major labels still have more opportunities than those who don't. The Flobots, for example (a band I haven't worked with) signed in order to have more visibility for their non-profit. It's not a path that work for many and isn't even an option for most, but it works for some.
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Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
Does that about cover it, or is there something I'm missing?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: @ Dr. F. Crane
It depends. The bands who used to make a living playing the regional club circuit are making less now.
Bands that have been independent all along and who were selling CDs at $15 each directly to fans are selling fewer of them, or having to drop the price.
Bands that never were in it for the money and just wanted do a little recording have more avenues to post their music online.
From what I have gleaned talking to a lot of bands, everyone is making less. Bands that would have sold 15 million albums a few years ago are selling 1-2 million. Bands that were selling 10,000 copies to their fans are selling 3,000. Bands that could make $1000 - $2000 a night paying a local venue are now making $500. Bands that used to play venues holding 1000-2000 people are sometimes booking smaller venues now.
Bands that didn't exist a few years ago and who are now in the business are, by definition, making more money than they were then. But had they gotten into the business 10 years ago, maybe they would have made more.
Overall I would say the pie is about the same, but divided up among far more bands. Most of those MySpace bands feel like they are in the music business because they have some tunes up there and perhaps are available for a gig, but most of them aren't making much money. The bulk of the rewards still go to a few stars at the top of the system.
The bands that are the happiest seem to be the ones who were on major labels and now aren't. They are making more money than they did in the past because nothing goes to the label now. They have benefitted from both systems.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
Yes, pretty much. I used to work in sports and now in music. The athletes I knew well went to the Olympics. So I saw what they did to make it. And I wrote about marketing and management for athletes. But I would have been remiss to suggest to aspiring athletes that pro careers were a possibility. Very few make it to that level. In fact, I would tell parents that their kids probably won't ever get athletic scholarships, either. I didn't want to talk them out of having their kids do sports, but I wanted to make sure they weren't going heavily in debt to fuel these dreams. Sports is more like ballet than a career path. Most kids take lessons for enrichment, not as a potential career.
When I talk to aspiring writers, I tell them that freelance pay hasn't gone up in 30 years. It's a tough way to make a living.
As for musicians, there are so many services which take advantage of musicians' hopes and dreams, but don't really facilitate them. If you look at the success stories that are posted on some music sites, you find out how few there are relative to the number of people using the service.
What I like about Topspin Media is that it isn't trying to sell a service to the masses. It is working with musicians/bands that already have fans and can take advantage of what Topspin can offer. Topspin has a very honest approach to this business.
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Re: Isolated examples
No offense, but that's incredibly demeaning and insulting to creative types. You are assuming that people are unable to come up with new and better innovations. And you work in the creative industry.
Yes, I show these "isolated examples." But I've also detailed the economics for how it scales. But when I do that, people come here and complain "that's just theory, it doesn't work in practice." So then I show it in practice, and folks like you say "that's just one example, it violates economics."
I give up. You can naysay all you want. I'm sick of responding to the naysayers, when both the theory and the reality says this works.
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Re: Re: Isolated examples
Corey Smith's manager has said that techniques he has tried with Corey (like giving away free music) have not worked as successfully with other artists he works with.
What it boils down to is that Amanda Palmer and Trent Reznor are very creative and most likely will always be ahead of the game. That's reason to follow them and be their fans. Because they are creative and cool.
But by the time other bands get around to copying what they have done, it will have less effect.
So I applaud the publicity they generate because they deserve it. But it won't translate into success for others. It would be like saying, "If you all did what the Beatles did, you'll find success too." People have been trying for years to do what the Beatles did, but they aren't the Beatles.
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Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
The theme through many of the techdirt discussions is give away something for free to sell something of value. Well, that is one approach and people have been trying variations in a variety of industries for as long as there have been free samples and asking for donations and tips.
I'm fascinated by the discussions and am always interested in hearing about the new ideas, but I know that most of them will not translate for most bands. So it's more a collection of unique stories than role models. There's nothing wrong with that, but I just want to broaden the discussion to include the day-to-day challenges within the music business. The average band probably benefits more from learning about where to purchase t-shirts at the best price than how a celebrity is able to get thousands of fans on Twitter.
The reason I use local music scenes as my reference point so often is that IS the music business for many bands and their fans. It isn't about making a splash nationally. It's about connecting to people you see on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis.
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Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
Jesus Krist on a Kracker, can you even hear yourself, Suzanne? Copying? Copying?!? "But my band sounds just like Nine Inch Nails! How come no one shows up at my gigs or wants to buy my records?"
Yes, copying, that's EXACTLY what Mike is saying we all should do. Just copy Trent Reznor and all your dreams will come true!
Mike, sometimes you can't even lead a horse to water.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
BINGO. Most bands aren't that original. There are far too many of them for that. So what we have are a collection of stories about creative types who are making it work. What distinguishes them is their creativity, not the tools that they use. That's what I want us to discuss. Not the free model. Not the death-of-the-label model. There's not a lot left to discuss on those topics.
What we really need to be focusing on is marketing creativity and what people will pay for art. That's something I do plan to be exploring in some of my writing. A lot of the art market works on selling one-of-a-kind objects to an elite audience. The mass-market-give-it-away-for-free goes against what they are doing.
Creativity isn't necessarily about creating a cheap or free object to sell a premium one. It may be selling only premium ones from the get-go.
The psychology of the elite or luxury market is something that is relatively new to the music industry and hasn't been fully explored yet. We may end up with a network of music galleries that operate similar to art galleries.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
Actually this is complete horseshit, and if you had ever created anything in your life you would know it was horse shit.
In 1985 someone showed me that 4x5 camera was a much better tool than a 35mm camera and that insight gave me a business advantage.
In 1986 someone showed me that an incedent meter was a much better tool than a reflective meter and that insight gave me a business advantage
In 1989 someone showed me that a softbox was a much better tool than an umbrella and that insight gave me a business advantage
In 1992 I bought a camera that offered many of the advantage of a rail camera but with the convenience of an slr with roll film magazines and that gave me a business advantage.
In 1994 I started finishing on NLE tools while most of the industry was still on tape and that gave me a business advantage.
In 2000 I started using DV instead of BetaSP and that gave me a business advantage.
In 2003 someone showed me how shoot film could be more cost effective than shooting DV and that gave me a business advantage
In 2004 I started connecting with fans and giving them a reason to buy, and that gave me a business advantage.
I still haven't had a garage sale, but then we live pretty far away from the city these days, so maybe that's not an idea that will work for us. But I guess since I'm one of those creative types like Amanda and Trent, I'll just roll the concept around in my head until I figure out a way I can make it work for me, while all those poor unoriginal schmucks you're so concerned about wait for an A&R guy to make their dreams come true.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
Really? I've written for a number of national magazines. Wrote a book that was a featured selection in the Fortune Book Club. I've written quite a few resources used in colleges around the country. I'm a middle-of-the road successful writer, the equivalent of the new type of working musician people have been discussing.
I have friends who are at the top of their fields in sculpture, in television production, sports, and music. So even though I haven't become a household name, I've had the chance to watch a number highly successful/creative people and see how their careers have evolved.
You're making some interesting assumptions about me.
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Re: drunk twitter videos
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Watch out
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AFP
Amanda you are actively apart of mine and Matt's lives and we both want so badly to see you perform tonight at the Troubadour. We would have bought tickets but with the new baby, finances just haven't been the easiest of struggles. Please put us on your guest list at the troubadour. It would be the coolest thing ever. It would mean the world!
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Re: Re: Re:
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Awesome.
I think it's wonderful and has made me more devoted to her, and I feel it's all positive. She's not taking advantage of fans--quite the opposite. She's giving them a level of authenticity and availability that I have never seen anyone else give. I almost feel like it's a scenario where you run up upon a wonderful wild creature and freeze--I don't want to move or for anything to startle her to run her off into the wilderness, never to be glimpsed again.
I think she's stronger than that...just saying. I would have a bit of an empty spot in my daily life if she weren't this accessible--so I love it.
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Re:
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Re:
So, through just the intarwubyoutubenetz, she could still have 30k followers on twitter. Look at @wilw, he has over half a million followers, but I doubt he sells nearly that many books through O'Reilly Media, his publisher.
So yeah, you #fail at valid arguments. :(
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Amanda Palmer
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Re: AFP
Yes, that's what I get out of all of this. It isn't about the tools. It's about the artist. Palmer is cool. She'd have fans even if there was no Internet.
Here's just one of the blog posts I have done about her.
http://brandsplusmusic.blogspot.com/2009/06/renaissance-musician.html
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Re:
her marketing skills are tight and I am in awe of how much she has created on twitter. Others could learn a lesson and i hope some are...beware the stalkers though eh?
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AFP
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Re:
I am an online friend of a photographer who worked on her book, and he said she was awesome. I saw some stuff of her on youtube and watched her attitude on twitter and decided she was someone I could get behind. Only then did I buy her album.
I'm not saying there were NO sales involved for all those fans prior to them seeing her online presence, but merely pointing out that her album sales are certainly not the only way of her gaining followers.
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Re: 30K records = $0 for artists
Of course, the industry is also what's left of an aged mobster crew, so what else do you expect?
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Another issue
That being said, I think that her making this money is an insult to her fans and I am a little angry about it. For LOFNOTC, yes, she started it, but it was her fanbase and the twitter community that really made it take off. And when she decided to sell a t-shirt for 25 dollars, she decided to make it with slogans suggested by other twitterers. And did those people see a percentage of the sales? Obviously not.
I would assume she would still call her main occupation musician and not social marketing guru, and perhaps I am just old-fashioned in thinking that her main source of income should be music and not creating herself into a brand name and then profiting of the work of other people.
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Re: also
I thought she was rather optimistic a lot of times, not cynical.
I guess I never got to hear a lot of drama students sing, because I've never heard many like her, and I admire her for not having to be always a "pretty" singer.
I'll take passion over prim and proper any day.
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AFP
As you can see this came from what she is doing herself to promote what she is out there creating and is not coming from her record label. I think left to the record label I would have never found out about what she is out there creating and there would have been on less fan to buy her music or go to her show so why would they try to stop this or slow it down.
The fact that she is making money from her own efforts to promote what she does is great! That is the amazing thing about twitter, facebook and so on.
If we like it or not money is the energy that allows us to keep going in todays world and the person that is getting attention drawn to them (like Amanda is doing) is going to make money to do what they want to do. GO GO GO AMANDA!!!
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Re: Re: more....
I'd follow AFP on twitter if you'd like an update if they make any more.
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AP
But there are a certain few artists who are real enough as people, who have a devoted enough following and yet are unknown enough not to have managed to make great money from the music industry anyway that could take an idea like this and manage to support themselves- at least for a while- with it, maybe as a 1 or 2 shot boost.
And good on any that do it- if they manage it it's because they have a good enough relationship with their fans, and the fans appreciate it enough to pay good money for a unique/collectable item, or purely to support an artist they love.
I'm a huge Porcupine Tree fan, but could I see myself buying a book that Steven Wilson had read and signed on a webcast? No.
However Amanda Palmer is obviously someone who manages that connection- via Twitter, via webcasts and via the time she takes after her shows meeting and greeting fans.
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I love the site, but damn...
Like her music or not, AFP is a pioneer in self promoting musicians on twitter. She not only is developing a fan base, but she is sharing parts of her life with her fans. FFS, I know what her hair looks like in the morning or what she ate for breakfast. It gives a texture to her life and music. She's doing much like Ann Marie Cox or Jake Tapper is doing in news on Twitter. You are exposed to more than just music, you're exposed to the artists life.
19k might not be a lot, but it was done in 10 hours. No ebay, no phone numbers, no commercials... just TWITTER. 19k in terms of a 40 hour work week would work out to 4 million dollars a year (19k x 4 x 52). Not bad for hanging out on twitter on a Friday night.
Many bands won't translate because they are entirely market created successes. The people that have "failed" at twitter are the ones that have other people twitter for them, or arn't articulate enough to get a complete thought out in 140 characters.
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Re:
What you see as jealousy I see as a strange sort of pride, and I see it that way because it creeps up on me sometimes.
For example, a few years ago I found myself walking up and down the streets of New York City postering for the home town premiere of our third films, Damon & Hunter.
The film had already receive some really great recognition and was already selling well on DVD, but I wanted to see it play to a packed house, and not being the all that adept at the whole street-team thing, a week before the show there I was, going in and out of every store in Hells Kitchen, Chelsea, and the Village, asking if I could put up posters.
I am not too proud to say that there was a part of me that felt a little embarrassed. Here I am, an 'award-winning director' and I'm putting up posters for the first time that any one of my films has ever played in NYC. It was not exactly the scenario I had been running in my head during the years leading up to my "big moment".
I think the plain fact is that there are a lot of people who wouldn't want to make $19K selling t-shirts because that just too much the job they already have selling health insurance or whatever. In their day-dream they just make pretty music and the money rolls in. If you actually have to work for it, then it doesn't count. In their minds, that's getting paid for working hard or being clever. Making pretty music and having the money magically roll would be confirmation that I Am Special.
Well I want to be special too. We all do, and I understand that. But knocking Amanda for selling t-shirts is like knocking me for going out and putting up my own posters, and doubly so if you're big claim to fame is a book you wrote 20 years ago called "Crash Course: The Instant MBA"
There's no instant anything. There's talent (a little) and hard work (a lot), and maybe a dash of cunning. If 20 years after your big hit your spending your time advising parents not to go into debt to finance their children's sports careers, maybe it's that last element that's missing.
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Re: Another issue
Everyone who bought a shirt has a share in the music, and that probably means a lot more to them. Anyway, I doubt the person who came up with the slogan wanted anything more than to contribute. And they probably got a shirt out of the deal - that's kind of the way she rolls. She doesn't leave good deeds unreturned. She shares the talents and favors of those who help her with others who may be able to help them, and so on. The nice man who helped her twitterhike in LA yesterday got to advertise his skills on youtube where thousands of AFP fans will watch it. It's a nice system, if you ask me.
She's not raking in the dough, here. She's supporting herself. She's also sharing the wealth by doing free shows and benefits. I don't think anything about that really screams "selfish".
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It's pretty simple really...
Here's the experience from a fan point of view. I can check Twitter or my email and get notices about shows, acquire affordable tickets or interact with an artist I truly enjoy. I can then go to the show and text/twitter from the crowd and win a poster or other item. I can wait after the show and have that signed, because the artist actually cares. I prefer that to ticketmaster email where I get charged up the ass for a stadium show with 1 band I enjoy put on tour by the label with 3 other I could give a shit about all while being kept a comfortable mile distance from the band by security keeping me from leaving my area by jabbing me with a cattle prod. Then rather than interact with the band I can head to the merch stand to pay for an overpriced shirt or CD with really expensive packaging. Sweet. True, this model wouldn't work for all bands, but thats because it's not a model. It's just an ever evolving newfangled way for an artist to try to give their audience the best experience possible. So why hate?
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Re: I still don't buy it
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Re: anecdata
*tips hat*
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Re: they didn't market her album
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$19k In 10 Hours
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Relationships
Relationships are also key for the labels, as well. Production and distribution are no longer their domain, so they have to show value elsewhere in the process. And that one last bit of value they provide is in their ability to create these relationships, for the band by promoting them, for the audience by filtering the choices. It doesn't seem to me that most labels are especially good at this (particularly their ability to bring good bands to the attention of fans) and probably new technology avenues would do better at this. Certainly in this case, the acrimony between AFP and Roadrunner would seem to indicate that Roadrunner probably isn't in the best position to enhance AFP's relationship with her fans or grow her fanbase. If they can't get her, how can they reach out to people who can? Oh, I'm sure their efforts have helped Amanda get going, and if music industry accountants and lawyers are half as good as legend suggests, they've probably recouped that.
Does any of this give aspiring artists out there a roadmap to success? Hell, no. It's not easy to become noticed. But I think it does show that as you succeed, it's vital to work at establishing those relationships to maintain success and viability. And it shows that for a label to be relevant, they have to grow and enhance those relationships. It's not just about shipping units anymore.
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Amanda
She is fierce, fabulous, creative, INSANELY personal, and even more talented. Her lyrics resonate strongly in the hearts of her fans, earning her their understanding and their trust.
To make $19,000 on twitter, you need to not just connect with fans, but WANT to connect with fans. For the love of connection instead of money. Let's not act like just any artist can pull this off. Not every artist is Amanda Palmer.
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Amanda
I first heard the Dresden Dolls through my boyfriend in 2003. He had heard about them through a friend. I never bought a DD album, but I had Amanda’s songs stuck in my head for years. I signed up for Twitter a few months ago and came across Amanda’s twitter feed when searching through other people’s “followers”. She came across as interesting, so I started following her tweets. I was immediately hooked and soon began reading her blog’s back entries. I still don’t own a Dolls or WKAP album, but I did purchase a postcard from Amanda’s live auction. I bought it, not because I was being taken advantage of, but because I appreciate her reaching out to fans on a personal level, and I want to support her. I will continue to send her money/support her in whatever new way she imagines, as my way of thanking her for creating music that I love, and for being a unique artist.
I have become a fan of Amanda’s through no way of a record label.
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Re: Relationships
Social media has really emphasize the "service" element of music. One of the jobs now is keeping your fans happy. You grow and maintain your community by interacting with them, creating fun events, coming up with new ideas that challenge them, etc.
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Re: anecdata
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Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
Exactly. Because some of them aren't very good. If you're not good, nothing works. But why is that a big deal?
If you're good, there's an UNLIMITED number of ways to make these models work. They scale like you wouldn't believe.
What it boils down to is that Amanda Palmer and Trent Reznor are very creative and most likely will always be ahead of the game. That's reason to follow them and be their fans. Because they are creative and cool. But by the time other bands get around to copying what they have done, it will have less effect.
Wow. Do you even read what I write? I've said over and over and over again that the trick is NOT to copy what these guys are doing. It's to take the *general* lessons from them, not the specific tactics.
The strategy works: you connect with your fans and you give them a reason to buy -- whether it's concerts or t-shirts or a box set or a trip to Disneyland. If you connect with them in a meaningful way and you're good, they'll buy. They'll buy more than they did before and you'll be better off.
But you have to connect in creative ways. That doesn't mean copying Amanda or Trent or anyone. It means connecting and building relationships in a way that works for each artist.
So I applaud the publicity they generate because they deserve it. But it won't translate into success for others. It would be like saying, "If you all did what the Beatles did, you'll find success too." People have been trying for years to do what the Beatles did, but they aren't the Beatles.
Holy fuck. That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I've said. I specifically said don't COPY Trent or Amanda. Don't copy exactly what they did. That won't work. I SAID to take the larger lesson, that you need to both connect and then give them something worth buying, something scarce and something valuable.
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interview - take a listen
http://odeo.com/episodes/23521227-Amanda-Palmer-The-Well-Rounded-Radio-Interview
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AMANDA GO Girl Go
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
I'm very interested in hearing about them, but pretty much everyone is citing the same small group of artists. Is there a lesson to be learned? That relatively few artists can do music full-time?
I think that's why there is a high level of skepticism (most from Anonymous Coward) about new music business models. If there are only 10-20 commonly cited success stories, that isn't an indication that the new system is working.
When we start hearing about 2000 unsigned artists who are making enough to have mortgages, health insurance, send their kids to college, etc., then we will know we have made the transition.
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Hey Amanda,
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Re: More Math
Ok, so we haven't seen a ledger written out giving us the costs of shipping/production/whatever. . . But how do you know that those costs aren't accounted for in her totals for each activity (aside from the studio)?
So according to your math, she's made approximately $5,500 less than she told us. . . But who cares? That's probably still more than what some of her fans might make in a year. But that would mean I'm assuming I know the financial demographic of her fanbase. And even subtracting the $5,500, she's still made a shitload of money for approximately 30 hours of work.
Can we examine the battle between the label and AFP a little more closely? Is it about money? Partly, yes. . . Creative control? Well, she's found a way around that (ie, the label didn't want to pay the Danger Ensemble, but they found a way to make it work) and it was awesome. Also, look at the afore mentioned youtube fiasco.
Also: Roadrunner's problem with AFP's bare belly in the Leeds United video led to a very beautiful campaign promoting positive self-image.
In this instance of an artist being upset with their label, and I know we're talking about money, it's not JUST about money. It's just one more example of how they're not helping her career.
IMHO, record labels exist for the same reason as tax law. . . The number crunchers and attorney's would be out of a job. But that's a whole different thing.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
That's a bogus list. Because, just a few years ago, you HAD to sign to a label to get anywhere. Saying that you couldn't have had past label help is meaningless.
Either way, I'd argue the list is actually HUGE. We hear from bands every day that are making a living and aren't on a major label. But they don't get much attention from the business model people, and I don't write much about them because most of them aren't doing anything *special*. They're just connecting with fans on MySpace, making music and touring a lot.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
Those are the ones I use for my baseline models. They tour, they sell CDs and merch, they play clubs and festivals. At the most basic level, you have local bands who play local clubs. A step up from that are the jam band style bands who tour all the time and play as much as 200-300 shows a year. Not necessarily a lot of bells and whistles, but they connect with their fans. I think this approach remains the core of the unsigned band music business.
To make a very low level of income, a 4-piece band is going to need to bring in at least $100,000 - $120,000 a year (that only gives each band member around $20,000 a year). To make a real go of it, they need to be looking at a gross in the $1 million range. I'm really interested in the business models of the bands doing from $100,000 to $1 million. How many CDs are they selling? How many shows are they playing? How many fans per show? How much per ticket? How many T-shirts are they selling? This is the life for many musicians and the more we can learn from each other, the better.
Palmer has been really helpful in that she, more than others, shares a lot of her financial figures.
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Can be done,very easy....Motivation,and effort is the failure on most musicians though
Being one of the few artists from my home town,that's actually made a good living with this kind of thing,I'd say that it can be easily done.
mp3.coms first run 35000$ in six months....done by hand,3500 emails a day,and talking to everyone first hand...
and the issue here really is not whether said artist is behind a major label or not,but are you willing to attempt the 17 hour days it takes to nurture a following of merit for your career....
(whats amusing about this is the fact now that labels do exactly 2 things these days..."Jack" and usually followed by "Shit"....so this whole excuse I keep hearing"You have a label"is just a way of staying put and putting the blame one someone else,instead of taking the time and effort to further yourself)
Its allot easier to talk down a blog post like this,then support it,and separating yourself from the masses to accomplish this kinda thing puts you in the top 10% of musicians,if you find the niche to do it...and you have quality songs like this artist...
and i'll be honest folk,you have to do the exact opposite of what people do to rise up above the masses,and like all things.
"Mindset without execution is a waste of space. Execution without mindset is a waste of time."
and theirs allot of musicians wasting time online...and not connecting with their fans.
Its easy to pound out a crappy cd(everyone can do it these days,with zero talent)
she deserves the cudo's in general....
We'll be seeing allot more artists like this,and its good to see,since the labels are now flopping around in their own death throws.
Its also good to see that someone can actually rise up and do this kinda thing....
"Success is not measured by how many battles we have won in life, rather, in how many we have had the courage to fight. The Path of Power does not reside in the outcome of battle but in the impeccability of the battle itself."
problem we have in general is the music business spends to much time bitching about the battle,when they should be rising up to it....
what choice will you make?
"Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first."
looks like amanda's already on the home plate...good for her.
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+1 New Fan
The amazing thing about this technology is how it scales, see the old way meant paying for costly radio ad time, or schmoozing the DJ with hookers & blow to get your music out on the radio, or it meant paying a "street team" to put up posters, the "new way" is about having your fans do it for you, electronically.
I have money and I want to experience & pay for music, I don't listen to the radio, and I don't watch TV. To reach me you have to communicate via these channels (the internets, & my extended online social network). The "Music Industry" has no clue how to do this, does not want to do this, and couldn't do a better job than the artist even if they tried.
There was a time when artists needed the music industry to distribute and market their product, but music is no longer a commodity that you can market and sell in a store. Radio is dead, MTV is dead, broadcast television is dead, record stores are dead, the "Music Industry" is dead (shhh... don't tell them though! They get really upset when people say stuff like that)
When was the last time you met a travel agent? Technology rendered them obsolete, now you just log on to a website and book your own vacation.
This next generation, they're not buying cd's, they think it's ridiculous. They're laughing at you.
Amanda Palmer - lead the way!
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Re:
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Re: Re: Re:
As is often pointed out, it works pretty well for air. Plenty of very valuable stuff is free. My daughter hugging at me is the best thing I get most days, the price is free. And the marginal cost is great, too. We can create incremental hugs with basically MC=0. Valuable and Free ride shotgun more often than Thelma and Louise. Choose to debate this point, and prepare to be slammed by dozens of examples.
"She tries it again next week, and she will attract almost the same crowd, and not as many of them will buy t-shirts (they blew their budget)."
Yet you are in full support of the recording industry trying to sell a CD each week, and assume magically that the budget there is renewable?
An you naively assume (living in your box) that next week will be more custom T-shirts? You really aren't reading this blog, are you. Mike ALWAYS says that t-shirts are but one example, and that creative people can get...y'know...creative. If artist want to earn more money next week, we think it would be cool if the did a little more work next week, got creative, and offered something to fans.
"Everything that is out there is built on the back of the existing recording industry."
Wow. Just wow. How about we give some credit to Tesla and inventors of radio? Inventors of TV, transistors, Edison and the gramophone? How about we give some kudos to the artists for creating the art? Is there no thanks to the legions of fans who spread the word socially? To radio hosts like Clyde Gilmour who dig deep into vaults and play favorites? To music reviewers and critics who pick their top lists? To YouTube, Twitter, Napster, PirateBay, MySpace and that new fangled Internets that seems to have the ability to allow people to interact?
Nope, according to you, it was the recording industry. What bunk. Did they also make Beethoven and Mozart popular? You do understand that, although marketing is a powerful driver, it is PEOPLE that make things popular, right? Did the recording industry make Google popular? Nope, people used it, spread the word, and it grew. Bands...hundreds of bands, have done the same thing sans labels.
"none of the examples cited on Techdirt ever explain how the transition from nobody to somebody would occur in the new music marketplace"
Oops, sorry. Our bad. Here you go. Band x gets together in high school, has talent, writes a few catchy songs. Plays their way through college and earns a little money by playing bars. Hones talent. Uses Garage Band software to record some MP3s, puts them up on MySpace site for free. People that went to shows download them. Friends and family download them. Rate them highly, email them to friends. Twitter about upcoming performances. Band now has ability to fill local bars, earning good income. Band hooks up with local radio station for a show or two, drops in to the studio to hang with DJs, play a live song or two. (Barenaked Ladies do this through the 80s - without the Internet, of course. The guys would just keep "showing up" at the Toronto HQ of MuchMusic and would hang with the VJs.) Band x is now fairly popular on MySpace, is able to sell some copies of music, and yes, some custom T-shirts with funny slogans. The film a cheap but creative video with a catchy tune, I dunno, something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv5zWaTEVkI . The video gets a few million hits, and the band is popular. Or does well on any of the global "Idol" franchises, or Star Search, or Mickey Mouse club...and don't diss me on this, because you probably know the same examples as I do for whom each of those actually worked.
The Internet not only eliminates the labels usefulness in distribution, but it fully eliminates the labels usefulness in A&R (finding talent). What's more, good talent is no longer filtered by some dumb suit at the label - the people get to decide what's good or not. It's like free market vs. authoritarianism, like www vs. AOL, like the Android App store vs. GetItNow. Turns out if the Internet can be used to rate the best blender at Amazon.com, it can also be used to discover talent. Non Luddites get this, you don't.
"it's years of business experience"
We've all got this. So did Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers, Rick Wagoner, and the leaders of the banks making derivative mortgage investments. Lots of people who can't see the change of the tides have years of business experience. Your years of experience tell you one thing, my years of experience tell me the opposite. Come back in 4 years or so, and we'll chat about who was right.
"Using isolated cases...isn't really how anything is done"
You may be right on that. But maybe wrong. Maybe it is a bunch of isolated cases that will be the future. Maybe artists will have to be creative about business. Maybe there will just be multiple ways to earn revenue, each less than "album sales" used to represent, but in aggregate actually more.
In fact, Mike never said it was "isolated cases". In fact, he has generalized these isolated cases into a model that he thinks makes sense consistently for the future: "connect with fans, offer them something they want to buy". I agree that if you do that, you can do it over and over to increasing success. That's not isolated, it's repeatable. It's just harder to visualize than repeatedly selling shiny disks.
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Amanda Video
http://www.uncensoredinterview.com/vlogs/11836-amanda-palmer-friday-night-freaks
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Re:
Neil Gaiman wrote Coraline. They're on the same damn page, and they're clearly happy together.
I'm glad Amanda herself stepped in to clear things up. I wish people would argue facts instead of assumptions.
I was a Dresden Dolls fan from the get go, and though I'm not in love with WKAP, I love her, so I stuck around. She's doing things that are unlike anyone who's come before her, and I think every single person who comes across this "19K on Twitter" story should be excited that there's an artist with a following who is smart enough to know a good thing when they see it, as well as the artist who is smart enough to rally thousands of people for no reason except for her magnetic personality.
The haters are always going to hate, no matter what you change, and no matter what you manage to prove to them.
And calling AFP the poor man's Tori Amos? When was the last time she got this much attention?
That's what I thought.
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Yeah, these techniques are only a gimmick... but they're tiny steps towards sussing out the online possibilities.
(Figuring out where the fans are in order to plan tours; letting an album leak temporarily because that's what will happen to it anyway, and because it gets interest if people can hear the songs before buying; putting clips up on Youtube and letting people remix them/create stuff with them; selling personalised merchandise/memorabilia, rather than uninspired mass-produced stuff; and probably a few others I've forgotten because it's late.
It's all just figuring out what works and what doesn't. Right now, no one really has it sorted, and major labels aren't generally willing to take that kind of risk.
And the thing they all have in common is a sense of actually seeing what's wanted and giving it to people.)
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Re: Re: anecdata
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attention whoring
the most sickening part is people actually defended her, as 'creative genious' for...using magic markers on herself, like i did when i was 2. very little talent, no class whatsoever
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afp-attention whore
ANYONE who ACTUALLY paid hundreds for an afp t-shirt, please cnacel that order now that youve sobered up.
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afp- attention whore
even if you bought this suff with a debit card, you can dispute it and win. i have purchased with debit before, and have ALWAYS won.
as a side note, i see miss pompous herself, tori amos has a framed 98 rolling stone, signed, starting bids at $250!!! on ebay! tip, get the copy for dirt on ebay, go to ANY tori concert during the day. she ALWAYS has meet n greets( shes gotta get those ego strokes!) have her sign it, save big bucks.
another scam that tori pulled off was this i-tunes scam. if you didnt buy it on itunes, you DIDNT get the magic password(s)! so, no good seat for you! making you buy her cd twice!or, simply penalized for buying the actual cd. great huh?
but, knowing how much she spends on louis vuitton, manolo's, botox, wigs, etc etc , and knowing she cant give away her cds anymore, she has to come up with these scams, what a beeeatch.
i USED to be a fan of tori, now im really disliking her
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afp- attention whore
the 'celebrity' never says anything in response, because they KNOW theyre putting out crap!
anyone who criticizes my favorite bands or singers?
i COULDNT care less, i dont know them!
they arent MY imaginary friends, lol. just shows how pathetic this pop culture and dumbed down america truly are.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
So, you're complaining that Mike's theories will only work for bands that have talent and are creative? And you see that as a bad thing?
"The psychology of the elite or luxury market is something that is relatively new to the music industry"
OMG, you are "exploring" this subject in "some of your writing" and you haven't come across the concept of PATRONAGE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron) which is such an important part of the history of art? Your sentence is violently in conflict with reality. If only you were willing to look back more than 150 years, you might avoid being one of those "doomed to repeat it" types.
I'm not saying whether elite patronage was good or bad, I'm just saying that it's been done, and you seem to want to write a book about how it's a new concept.
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Re: attention whoring
Running around telling people why the artists you don't like "suck" is a puerile waste of time. Dropping in on their site, their 'twitpics', their fans to voice your opinion is a vindictive, juvenile act of trolling.
If you don't like it, then move along and find something you do like; something you can say good things about. You aren't talking about politics or civil rights, where you have to get dirty to fight for what you think is right - it's art, where you are free to enjoy what you like and avoid what you don't. Your life will be better for it...as will ours.
PS: Personal taste about the art is also irrelevant to the Techdirt discussion. So what you've offered us is irrelevant, and asinine.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
But they are not blockbuster "recording" artists. There are musicians playing bars, festivals, farmer's markets, kids shows, ski resorts, cruises, etc. all over the world. And they are paid to work, and they live basically normal lives.
You don't need to be a superstar or an MTV darling to make a living playing music. You don't even need a recording contract OR the Internet.
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Re: Re: attention whoring
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Branding
Reason to buy indeed!
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The approach is sustainable as long as the ideas can be mixed up so that they don’t get tired; this is not so different to what you need to do on the music creation side of the equation. As far as others copying the revenue supplementing ideas go, let them. On the music front, bands latch onto your sounds and grab at your fans (if you’re good) but enduring acts usually know a thing or two about reinvention. If you want to go it alone in the music industry, you are going to have to reinvent business practices again and again.
Magic_Monkey: Performance Art works differently. The interaction constitutes the art. If you were not in the zone it would obviously not constitute art for you personally and would look exactly how you described it. Most things do seem silly if you can’t relate, but you don’t have to be a celebrity worshiper to realise that experiences can be meaningful to others in ways that will never be meaningful to you.
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Re: afp- attention whore
I wish you could be as passionate about hating Amanda Palmer's fans (or any fans of anyone, it would seem) as you could be about something worth someone's while.
Take all of that pent up anger about not having found an artist that represents you well enough to defend publicly and support financially and direct it into something useful, like song writing for instance. Then, once you've proven your talent and proven yourself worthy enough to spout your negative opinions about your peers, (as opposed to people that are higher up on the proverbial ladder of life than you) maybe people will take you seriously.
Until then, you're just a bitter kid in junior high that didn't get asked out to the dance at the community center on Friday night. It's a lot of work to sit at home grumbling and hating the world while everyone else is out connecting with the people that make the music that they love and feeling a part of something bigger than themselves, isn't it?
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Re: Branding
B. That's disgusting.
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Re: Re: Re: attention whoring
I'd like to become an arrogant douchebag, and I understand that license is useful in the effort.
Perhaps I should not be wasting my time with you, true. But I'm not doing it for you, I'm doing it for me, and anyone else who cares to read. You, though, should spend less time fascinated, jealous, and angry about AFP's moderate success. I dont' think it makes you happy.
Art, in its many incarnations, almost always whores itself for attention. Art craves attention.
When art succeeds at getting attention, we often get to witness jealousy among those denied attention (or their mother's love). Perhaps this is one of those cases.
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Re: Hey Amanda,
"i’m really glad i took the time to write it and it’s inspiring me to spend a great amount of care and time on my Huge State Of The Music Industry And How Everything Is Going To Have To Change blog that i keep promising."
http://blog.amandapalmer.net/
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Ah well.
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Amanda
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Re:
and also.. artists themselves don't make much of anything from record sales.
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Re:
This is one major case of a record label raping an artist; however, she chose to do it the right way even without Roadrunner. She didn't want the experience to be hindered because of the corporate douchebags, therefore the balance ended on the low side of the scale for her.
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@ Bob RE: also
(By the way, I am of mind to suggest to you that you go listen to her rendition of "What's the Use of Wondrin'?" with Annie Clark. She can sing very well. The power of expression trumps much, but I am assured that you are too entirely consumed by what is the popularly produced prattle of the rich sections of the musical spectrum to truly care at all.)
It doesn't matter. I'll bet that you are just another dissatisfied male xenophobe. Taking that into consideration, Miss Amanda Palmer's music--which is so radiantly charismatic--probably is deemed as 'fucking awful' because it doesn't conform to your small minded view of things. It is fine that you hold an opinion, but please do not show of your small penis in these comments. You are not needed.
Last time I checked, Amanda Palmer does not 'feign' cleverness, or much else, unless it is a theatrical addition to her show. The 'references' are not "random," though if you'd actually try to pay attention, or if you actually cared besides your obvious desire to attack everything, you may pick this up.
Then again, it isn't packaged in shiny plastic cases with lyrics manufactured by the label accompanied by heartless plunking. It is expression. It is music. To some it is love, to others light... But you don't wish to see that. Nobody does unless it is 'popular.'
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To the Haters
Amanda, I know it’s hard but do not focus on the hate/evil displayed here. Do your best to ignore it and not bring light to it in your blogs. Focus on the love/God which is the real opposite. The love you find in your fans who support you. Indifference/apathy lies between love and hate. Also focus on coming to Northeastern Ohio someday soon because my fiancée desperately wants to see and hear you and we can’t afford to go far away. Much love sent your way.
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AFP is amazing!
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"Something happens to get these people well enough known to attract a crowd. It is usually through a record deal that it happens."
Actually, it usually works the other way around. An artist usually has to have built up a large fan following for a record deal to happen.
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Re: Good for Amanda, Sucks to be her "friends"
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Re: Re:
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Starving artists
These costs are not met if Warner takes everything to cover the costs of their own earlier investments. By doing so, they've managed to screw any chance of further good relationships with Amanda Palmer and thus, also their chances of getting little more than just returns on their investment and a worse reputation amongst potential artists signing to them.
these days people are buying farrr less CDs because of MP3s. the fat cats are panicking because they want their money and they want it now, before they go to shit and kick the bucket.
Amanda Palmer's a great musician and a fab person (I met her in person years before all this palava) and it's hard not to be a fan of hers, because she really DOES care about her fans and have a great time with them. Online *and* IRL.
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Suck my cunt, whores.
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Re: Re:
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afp-attention whore
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afp- attention whore
oh yeah, fools, shes worth milions. you dont have to buy her shit, lol
im not giving her any more of my attention, my last post on this fat ugly broad.
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Amanda Palmer - How I Came to Be a FAn
I was so taken with it that I just followed the chain and started finding more and more things. I think I keyed off of the "Dresden Dolls" tag and started digging up more and more stuff on them. Found these amazing fan-shot videos of her and Brian doing Half-Jack. Didn't pick up on her name or his, just that this was the Dresden Dolls.
Loved the power and energy of the live work and tried to find out if the Dresden Dolls were playing anywhere on the west coast this year. Coachella kept coming up in the google list and yet I couldn't find them on the bandlist - I finally somehow realized that "her" name was Amanda Palmer and SHE was playing. So the crazy wine drinking girl was Amanda .. and then I found out she was on a World Tour and Coachella was really after the end of the World Tour and could possibly be the last time to see her live for a while.
And then I started watching all these fan-shot live videos of that tour, and I see the tour blog and just how she set it up to be more than her and a keyboard flying around the world, she got a small performance group together and got a tour bus together and made it so much more than a 'flog the product' promotion tour, made it a thing in of itself. I just fell in love with the way she was so comfortable interacting with the audience, was not afraid to hit or sing a bum note, to sing her heart out putting emotion and commitment way ahead of polish and finesse, the way she seemed to LOVE live performance. Particularly I loved those times when she plays on the sidewalks or in parks or warehouses before the main shows.
* Go see her do Rihanna's "Umbrella" on the streets of Dublin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUSZ5mxYwvE
or
* Sing Fake Plastic Trees by Radiohead at the Bull Moose record store in Maine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O54VQM_D_nU
Yep it's all online now and forever more on YouTube
And so that got me to the point of "no F**ing way am I missing this person at Coachella".
And along the way via her blog I learned how merchandizing is a big deal for artists and that that's how you really keep yourself going. It's not icing on the cake, it's the meat and potatoes of how you support yourself. You don't make much in performance fees, you make very little from record sales. That completely changed my attitude to the merchandizing table , and I definitely went to Coachella and to the Troubadour last week with extra cash determined to support the cause by buying at least a couple of TShirts. (And the awesomeness of Beth who runs merch. for Amanda is a whole other story .. but it's all there .. blog/twitter/inperson at the shows...)
So then at last I'm in the sphere of record label influence 'cos I see the music videos online and the album on Amazon and I buy the album, Who Killed Amanda Palmer. But then it seemed to sort of immediately drift away from them again 'cos I learn how it's produced by Ben Folds and how that came about - he offered, she said yes, she went and slept on the floor of his studio as they rehearsed and recorded etc etc, and how the label didn't want a fancy booklet with the album, so she worked out how to get a deal going to make a whole book to come out too (photo's of her "dead" , stories by Neil Gaiman ) And I ordered the book.
And then, yeah, it's Amanda who sucked me into the Twittersphere. I couldn't for the life of me figure out what on earth the world was getting excited about Twitter for. I'd looked at it and I saw a world of teenagers broadcasting to whoever would listen how the diet Pepsi at Taco Bell tonight kinda sucks, man. What I learned from experimenting with 'following' Amanda was that if someone you like and respect, whose opinion you value is twittering then more than likely you're going to enjoy reading it. It's weird. I don't give a crap about what say Paris is having for breakfast, or for that matter Trent Reznor, but I do care , LOL, about wtf Amanda is up to? And layer on to that the real practical value of it , that she announces free shows, secret shows, ticket giveaways blah blah via Twitter.
And the show at Coachella? Jesus Christ, the girl knows the difference between a show and an event. She made it an event. She made it so cool to have been at that event. People go "oh my god, you were at Coachella? God I wish I'd been there too?" "You saw her stage dive?" The "Creep" cover sung from the mixing desk in the middle of the crowd?" And it's weird because they know exactly what they 'missed' because they've seen it via the dozen's of videos uploaded to YouTube .. .. . And after the cover of Creep done like that there was the walking to the performance arts stages after the show, the signing anything with fans, the hugs, the kisses (go look at the comments on her live shows see how many "I died today, she kissed me/ she let me kiss/hug her" comments there are. Good grief even I've hugged her and been hugged by her. It's a big deal. In some weird old world way ... being able to have that tongue tied "oh no I have no idea what to say now" moment with an artist you admire and then hug and blurt out "thanks Amanda, you're so cool" is a big deal. She's very real in person. Kind. Patient. Personable. That's tough to fake on a consistent basis. She'd have been found out a while back now if there were fake.
And, finally, via Twitter I saw on June 25, that the death of Michael Jackson was a very big deal to her, and that she was going to do a cover of Billie Jean at the gig that night, so when she started to talk about Michael I started to film with my tiny cam, and I got that and her emotional rearrangement of the song on tape and I uploaded it to You Tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTaI7pu-6ps
I did it because I knew it was something that any fan of hers that wasn't at the show would want to see, and I figured that maybe a bunch of people who aren't yet a fan might see it and some of them might get excited for the same reasons I have, about her. It's performance at it's best, with the priorities where they have the biggest payoff - in the emotion, into the 'now' of it, and not into technically perfect execution. If you get that, you're gonna love her. If you don't then you're not, but either way that's completely okay :)
Such videos are what sucked me into the whole Amanda scene. Maybe more will get sucked in from this one.
So ... in conclusion (my hat off to anyone who made it this far)
Who is responsible for getting me excited about Amanda Palmer? Who is responsible for me buying the Book, The Two Concert T-Shirts, & the #LOFNOTC tshirt, the tickets to Coachella, to the Troubadour, to Seattle (in a few days) and to Oakland (in a couple of weeks)?
Amanda Palmer.
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Amanda F-cking Palmer would do much better to work on being Amanda Palmer, and not spending all her time on everything else except it. While she is doing an excellent job connecting with what fans she has, she is failing when it comes to truly getting over the top. Anyone who feels the need to take a large number of dancers / actors / whatever out on tour with them (at their own expense) is likely hiding weaknesses in their own product (real or perceived). Amanda Palmer's music should be good enough that Amanda and a piano is all you need to enjoy it.
As for her $19,000 in T-shirt sales, I figure this: She needed hosting (to handle 50,000 plus page hits), credit card processing (which is normally not set up in a day) a webdesigner (usually call me in 2 weeks, I'll look at your project) and a t-shirt designer (we'll get to you when we can). She also needed someone to fold, ship, and handle every order. In the real world, she wouldn't have made a penny. The money made is because she had people willing to do it for nothing. Even with all that, she probably on netted out maybe $4000 - $5000.
Now the key to all of this: If Amanda F-cking Palmer was just trying to be Amanda Palmer, she could have performed any number of concerts that week and made more than $5000. She could have written new songs for her next album, which would help her make more money in the future. Instead, she sold t-shirts and junk from the last "tour" of Dresden Dolls.
In the end, if an artist has to be everything EXCEPT an artist to make a living, why be an artist at all? Amanda Palmer has only proven why so many artists end up as marginal stars, because they think they are smarter than everyone else and don't take advice. She would have her record company's full support if she allowed them to edit out her tummy on a video. Is that a reason to want out?
Wow.
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Re:
Hosting costs? For one, you can get VERY cheap hosting these days, a friend and I have shared hosting for like 5 domains domains that's like 7 bucks a month and it covers all of them. Hosting is nothing. And she already has a website/domain, so ti's already taken care of, and can carry over any website design from that. for all I know, she knows HTML, it's not like it's hard, and there are a ton of copy-paste scripts to make things even easier. Besides, this was over Twitter for the most part which negates any hosting costs, it's not like she set up an official shop with a slick design or anything, she didn't have to. Credit card processing? duh. PayPal. (though she probably is able to accept credit cards for real *already* from selling other merchandise in the past) Shipping/packing, as you said, she had friends help, but so what? If she had a larger volume of sales, it would have allowed her to hire someone and still make a profit. The whole point was that she didn't need any slick online shop to make the money, and this *is* the real world. She made money, it worked. Simple as that.
and you do realize she does tour as well, right? You can do BOTH touring/shows/new material AND T-shirts; it's not an either-or thing. And touring to locations requires booking costs, travel, advertising etc. It's not like it's a pure profit venture.
You are REALLY stretching here for any excuse why this is unworkable. It may not be workable on a massive scale, but at the current scale, it's fine.
And as for being a 'marginal star' you know, not everyone is in this to skyrocket to the top of the charts. You ever consider that she's happy with her 'marginal' success? Some people are in it to create art, and profit is a secondary concern (though making enough to live is certainly nice.) That's not to say she's not trying to reach the largest audience she can, I'm sure she'd be extremely happy to have a larger fan base. But she's proven that she wont sacrifice her art/image to be more 'marketable' with the whole Leeds United video thing. That's what the fuss was about. The one request probably wouldn't have made a ton of difference to the video, but it (and the comments made at the same time lamenting how she wasn't marketable enough) revealed an attitude that they were just out to make a bunch of Britney Spears clones, not support artists. Amanda's fans are so devoted to her precisely BECAUSE she is different, and doesn't bow to societal norms, she comes off as a genuine person/artist, not a product. To make herself more 'marketable' to appeal to a larger audience would be an insult to both her art and her existing fans. The tummy shot may have been a small thing, but if she'd caved on that, next it may not have been so small.
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Amanda
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AFP and Warner
Perhaps you're not familiar with what an "advance" actually is. The label gives you money to complete the project, but it's all recouped later from the artists' profits. If your album does not make enough profit to pay back this advance (even if it's the label's fault, e.g. by lack of promotion), then you are in debt to the label. And even after you pay back that advance, the label still takes out the lion's share of the profits - artists usually take less than 10%.
If you buy a coat using a credit card, is the credit card company paying for your coat? Of course not - you are.
This is moot in any case, since Amanda said she paid for recording the album herself, and did not get an advance. This was actually a smart move on Amanda's part - if another label wants to pick her up, they first have to buy out her debts, and now she doesn't have any (or as much anyway). I know of several bands who were not so smart - they recorded an album or two using a label's money, didn't recoup that advance, got dropped by the label, and can't make music under another label because of back debts.
It's also a bit ironic when people say that the label is paying for promotion, since the labels often make money off of promotion. Take radio, for instance - the labels don't pay to put songs on the radio; if "their" song is on the radio, they get royalties. In essence, radio stations are paying labels to promote records.
In Amanda's case, every argument you could make for the label is nullified by what they actually put in. Amanda sold more records because she used performance artists in her live shows - but the label wouldn't pay for them, so she had to pay them with donations from the audience. She makes it a point to sleep at fans' houses on tour, so the label doesn't pay for hotel rooms. They don't promote her shows or records, so she does it herself on Twitter and through her website. And on and on and on.
And in exchange for this "support", she gets less money than she would if she sold ten demos to her friends and family.
Amanda may be an atypical case, but only in degree, not in kind.
Also:
She has already been on tour for over a year straight. If you actually knew about what artists (even well-known ones) get paid for a show, you would know that you rarely make $5000 in one month. You only make money by selling "t-shirts and junk" at the show.
As for writing new songs for her next album - if that album is being straight-jacketed by the label, as this one is, why would that be a better use of her time? She's not going to make more money in the future - that's the entire point.
Obviously in real life she's still writing music, I'm just wondering how you justify your criticism.
p.s. To everyone else: the "Amanda sucks" and "Amanda is great" comments are really beside the point here. This article is a case study of the relationship between an artist and a label, not an endorsement of her music.
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afp=attention ho
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Re: AFP and Warner
This is new to me. I know that bands who are under contract to a label can't record unless the label says okay and sometimes aren't allowed to record for years, but I haven't run into any examples of bands who are dropped and then can't sign to another label because of past recording debts.
My understanding is that once you have been dropped, they don't do anything other than to continue to pocket the income on the albums you did for them.
But I could be wrong. If you have any links to articles that describe that scenario, I'd love to see them.
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Re: afp=attention ho
I thought you said you were leaving.
BYE.
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Re: also
Some of us appreciate moving tunes, original lyrics and music - and Amanda Palmer gives us that breath of fresh air.
Listen to her cd 4 or 5 times and be surprised at the beauty and comment in her music. The solo CD is one of the best collections of songs I've ever heard - and I've heard lots; even big name artists struggle to make anything close to say a 'Sergeant Pepper' - but AP does it here. She is also an amazing live entertainer.
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Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
If someone who like to put together a collection of 100-500 music marketing ideas that successful artists are doing, I'd love to see it. There's probably a book in there somewhere.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
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Re: I still don't buy it
Aside from an appearance on Good News Week, Roadrunner have done shit all to promote her over here.
And as far as living expenses and buying her opening spots, from what I remember she was asking her fans to bring food to most of her gigs to feed her crew and her supports, and she was squatting in fans and friends houses often because she could not afford accomodation. And I don't remember her opening for anyone big at any recent time either.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
If you can't see the relevance of these stories to all artists then you are really missing the whole point.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
The overall plan concept comes from discussions directed to artists about how to survive in the music business. But what you are saying is that there is no plan. I'll accept that. Sounds good to me. Be creative and hope for the best. Yes, that does seem to match reality.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Isolated examples
I totally agree.
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Re: afp- attention whore
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stop payment on amanda's junk/crap
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STOP PAYMENT ON THIS ATTENTION WHORES JUNK!
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AFP
I honestly do not/will not get AFP. Media whore? Attention whore? I think she wants to be a "celebrity by association." Look at her blog & tweets. Neil Gaiman. Margaret Cho. Trent Reznor. Perry Ferrel. Tori Amos (more on this one later). Maybe she's hoping for a Google "ripple effect" with people searching for info on the above mentioned people and having her name coming up in association.
If you read one of her recent interviews, she closes with "I love Neil Gaiman." If I recall correctly, she was "in love" last year but she didn't close an interview with "I love Joe the Plumber!." I guess he couldn't advance her career the way an association with someone like Neil Gaiman could.
Around SXSW, she gushed about how "Tori Amos wanted to meet her." She even joked about the both of them entering a room with one piano and only one of them coming out. She neglected to mention that at that time she was probably entering her relationship with Gaiman, one of Amos' closest friends. I seriously doubt AFP was even a blip on Amos' radar screen prior to this. I kind of wonder how Amos feels about her. I guess when they do a co-benefit for RAINN, then we'll know.
She seems to like to present herself as one of "us girls." The disenfranchised. The unheard. The rape victims. The aborters. She was "in love" at this time last year and blogged about it. She was SO busy being "in love" and "having sex" that she forgot to take out her menstrual sponge. Then she delighted her readers with tales of how "long" her vagina is. Most recently, it was the tale of her kidney infection and she chided her readers to "always pee after sex." Maybe next time her PSA will tell us to "wipe from front to back" as well. There was also the lovely story of the cold sore in her nose. I can't figure out if she has diarrhea of the mind, mouth, or fingers. TMI. AFP, these tales of your bodily woes don't make you look like a normal, everyday female artiste, they make you look gross and skeevy.
I don't, for the life of me, know what she wants from her record company. Does she REALLY want to be dropped? Honestly, if I wanted to be dropped, I would lie as low as possible, go away, and write the best fucking music of my career. "Fans? I don't have no stinking fans! Web presence? I don't have any stinking web presence!"
Instead she does the opposite. You want your record company to drop you, but you go on & on about how many people follow you on Twitter. I'm willing to bet that she gained anywhere from 3-5K of these followers after she announced her relationship with Neil Gaiman. Poor Neil, the man old enough to be her father, is probably just another stepping stone in her quest for fame and "world domination." She pathetically follows Neil's kids on Twitter and but it doesn't appear that they Tweet her. They're probably embarrassed by her ridiculous "artistic" behaviour.
Look at her blog and you'll find an oh-so-lovely picture of her deep-throating a glass dildo that she sold on auction for $570. Wait 'til the mean girls at Maddy Gaiman's school download that & post it around her school. Poor girl will probably have to switch schools.
Which brings us to another point---the rent party, auction, and t-shirt sale. Okay, supposing she financed her tour. We all know that she did it as cheaply as possible---passing the hat to pay the Danger Ensemble, staying at peoples' houses and having them cook for her. I thought the #1 rule of business is "pay yourself first." She got done with her tour and she had to have a rent party to pay her rent. Yeah, I'd have a lot of faith in her as an artist if you announced that you were unable to pay your rent. She said her album sold 30K and estimated there were 200K illegal downloads (where she got these figures, I'll never know). Where were all these people when she was on tour? Did they think that her album sucked that badly? What about merch sales?
Then there's the subject of the auction to raise $. Okay, her fans are willing to pay top $ for her stuff. Why would Roadrunner drop her now? There's obviously a market for her things. Maybe these people will actually buy her next album. She talks about how she's going on some hippy, trippy, Jack Kerouac style trip through Europe with Neil Gaiman. I can picture it now: Amanda, "Neil, we're running low on $. I'm going to go busk in Trafalgar Square." Neil, "Okay dear, just be back in time for dinner at Petrus." I'm so sure Neil's going to be flying Ryanair, travelling by coach, staying in hostels, and eating Pot Noodle. NOT. Does she honestly think her fans are THAT stupid. Travelling with a man who's used to flying First Class is going to slum it with "I can't pay my rent" AFP.
Let's not forget being AFP is a 24 hour fucking job. Those Sharpie "CSI Investigator" eybrows cost money. She's even lower than Kathy Griffin on the D-list. She hasn't even been name checked by Perez Hilton.
Here's an idea, since she's an admitted bisexual, maybe a very public lesbian affair will increase her public profile and her followers on Twitter. She could also have Neil's baby. That's it. Instant celebrity. Poor Neil. Something tells me he's going to end up with a very broken heart.
Her "WKAP" book reminds me of Madonna's "Sex" book. Provocative pics = instant celebrity.
I'm going to go see "The Church" play. They've been fucked over so many times by their record companies but they don't whine and cry and piss and moan about it. Unlike AFP, they're actually good musicians, and, unlike AFP, Steve Kilbey's blog is actually really fucking good. If you're looking for a good read, I strongly suggest Mr. Kilbey's blog.
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Re: AFP
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Re: Re: AFP- SHAMELESS ATTENTION WHORE
she name drops, i hate that. yep, i agree, gaiman is just another stepping stone. that 'relationship' will be over, SOON.
HER FANS JUST MIGHT BE THAT STUPID! they bought the whole, michael jackson is broke shit 100's of times over the years!
tori amos the pompous 'rape' victim LOVESSSS to play the 'victim' from men, her record companies, though they made her nice and rich. HER fans are basically gay/lesbian man hating morons.
ONCE AGAIN! stop payment on afp's shite!
afp? VERY lil TALENT. disgusting really. creative'? not by a LOONNNGGGGGG shot.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: attention whoring
p/s, im not jealous of m. j either! hes dead, not a lot to be jealous of there! lol he was transgender drug addict though. ooops, im off my meds!
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Re: AFP
Well alright.
And you are... who?
I respect you for your eloquence, as it gives you an obvious edge over monkey brains over there, but seriously. She's got a fan following and you don't. She's below Kathy Griffin on the D-list, and you aren't on it at all. She's figured out a way to get other people to give her her money, and you haven't. Finally, she's found a relationship that she's got enough confidence in to share it with her fans and, judging by the amount of time and thought you've given this post, you haven't.
Your jealousy is showing. Put it away. I don't understand why people read her blog and (obviously) follow her has closely as a fan does when they hate her so much. Have you nothing better to do?? For real. Go do something.
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Re: Re: AFP
I have also worked at record companies and radio stations, so I do have some idea of how these things work. Yes, I also know famous people but, at the end of the day, who gives a shit? Seriously. I don't randomly attack her by trolling her Twitter account. I was actually interested in her as a person so I read her blog, and once I read her blog, I realized she was nothing more than a name-dropper. The shameless art of self-promotion has seem to become the "shameless art of (becoming) self-important."
Jealous? Yes, okay I'm jealous. I'm jealous that I have to borrow $200K to produce my own album (while putting up 80K of my own money). Yes I'm jealous that when I do travel, I have to sleep on people's floors. Yes, you got me, I'm also jealous that I have to people cook for me and pass the hat to pay people that I recruited to travel with me. You've tagged me. I've got nothing better to do than think about biting the hand that, contrary to her ramblings, has fed me. Musicians "cry poor" all the time. Sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not.
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re: AFP
michael jackson is broke, busted flat.
i never beleieved it for a fucking second!
but, like wmd's. operation iraqi freedom, lol.
a shitload of ppl apparently did, haha.
turns out hes worth around 250 million.
'afp' dresden dolls, have been touring for years, shes worth millions, guaranteed.
she really, and her fans more so ,made me ill when she magic markered herself up, and her sheepsters ate it up, calling it 'pure genious' ha, oh lordy
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And what do her support people make?
and she doesn't bother to even give one dime to
her support people? What about all those merch girls?
The opening band? If she didn't have the label noone
would know who she is...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: AFP
Talk about an attention whore.
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I see, now.
I can only say that it really is rather obvious that you can't stand Amanda for being a bisexual woman who doesn't shave her legs, heh. :) You seem to have a problem with women in general and in particular, "muff divers" and "gay/lesbian man hating morons" (nice random ad hominem attack)
You are also quite vicious to "tori amos the pompous 'rape' victim" who "LOVESSSS to play the 'victim'" - I love how you imply she made up that whole silly rape thing, oh so fun. I would never wish such a horrible thing on you but if it did happen to you, you'd realize it is no joke and an extremely painful and humiliating experience.
AFP is not "name dropping Gaiman - she's fallen for him. How cynical do you have to be to even think such a thing? She is not worth "millions". I have no doubt that if she were she would not have toured using Twitter to find fans houses to stay at. It would be a bit more comfortable (and safer!) to use a tour bus and hotels. She puts herself at risk because she trusts her fans (which is really quite worrisome).
The magic markers were not genius but they were fun to see. :)
It's little things like that which makes her special, letting her fans in on random things she gets in the mood to do. She connects with us by just being a real (and adorable) person.
It's perfectly okay for you to dislike her - her loud, slightly abrasive, free spirited, who-gives-a-fuck-what-you-all-think attitude is not for everyone but at least acknowledge that you can only have opinions instead of spewing things out that you make up and pretend are facts.
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Re:
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Beautiful, Dig!
"Amanda Palmer - How I Came to Be a FAn
by Dig"
I just wanted to start the slow clap on that one - beautifully stated, you said everything I wanted to say and so eloquently! Thank you. :)
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Re: Re: Re: AFP
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Yep
O YA THEY'RE ON TOUR A LOT SO DEY IS WORTH BAZILLIONS!!!111
I'm sure you have lots and lots of important things to do. Stop paying so much attention to someone you dislike and do them.
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Re: AFP
afp is one of the most genuine people that i've ever come across. it just goes to show how fucked up our world has become that people feel the need to completely rag on someone who literally brings joy to almost everyone who comes into contact with her. a person who seems to simply want to make others feel a little less alone...
i feel like too many people in this thread have not taken the necessary time to really look into how badass amanda actually is....and i also think that a big deal is being made out of stupid, insignificant things. so she didn't go into detail about her last relationship...why should she? oftentimes bringing everything into the public eye can destroy something beautiful. it's really no one's business. and you're totally right on one point: if neil gaiman was just your average joe, she probably wouldn't tell us so much about it...simply because no one would need to know. but honestly he is ALREADY so visible that it was becoming painfully obvious to everyone anyway that there was something there... so why not just come out and say what we had all suspected for a while? if you're in love and it's already out there for everyone to see, why not embrace it and shout it from a mountain?
and i find it endearing when amanda gets excited about the people that she comes across. hell, if i met any of those people i would want to tell people about it. if she just said it nonchalantly, then i would agree that it is only arrogant name dropping. but because she seems almost humbled by the fact that these people are in her life, it makes me just love her more.
and yes, i know that this post is somewhat off track from the intended subject of this page. i just couldn't sit here and read all of this bullshit without putting in my two sense.
when it comes to the money issue...well i for one have absolutely NO PROBLEM investing money into anyone who is bringing so much light into a world that can sometimes seem like such an overwhelmingly dark place.
i don't really think that how much money afp makes/has is really any of our business, but as you said, she has a tendency to make EVERYTHING accessible. she wants to connect. her fans want to connect. win-win. and she says that the label is screwing her over. even if she simply set up a paypal account and asked for money, i believe that a HUGE number of people would STILL support her. but she's not that kind of person. instead she uses creativity and art to get things accomplished.
i guess i just think that you're missing the point. i have nothing but respect for how she conducts herself, and i believe that a great number of people would do well to take a leaf out of her book. love, love, love. that is what afp is about. and couldn't we all use a little more of that?
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Re:
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Re: Beautiful, Dig!
I'm not feeling very duped, very taken advantage of. In fact I feel more alive than I have in years. It's a nice feeling. I'm really happy to have stumbled across Amanda online - because that's led to me stumbing across Kyle Cassidy the photographer, the music / performance artists Sxip Shirey and Reggie Watts and also great musician Jason Webley. And that reopened a whole part of me that sort of died a little as I got into my late twenties. Doing some more writing, finally trying (so so badly) to play the piano.
I think discussions get more interesting if you start from the viewpoint that the person in question is good person, no more evil or angelic than yourself, and seek to understand what you see from that viewpoint. This habit of people assuming that other people are worse than ourselves, simply shortcuts what could otherwise be a more interesting and layered discussion. I do that myself in here - I wonder what's really going on behind the rather emotionally negative postings on here ... what's really driving it .. maybe there's something fascinating down there underneath all that .. .. but increasing I digress. Ta :)
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i was curious to see what her music was like and what she looked like, and i found myself immediately drawn in when i saw the music video for 'leeds united'.
however, if people want to buy the random crap afp puts on her twitter, then it's up to them.
i'm sure if coldplay, michael jackson, or any other popular artist these days did something similar they'd make millions, and i don't think people would make a huge deal over it.
people need to stop getting their jealous panties in a twist.
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Re: Re: AFP
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rock and roll math
there is a lot of misinformation happening here about how the music business works and that is cool, most of the people in the business don't understand it either. i am rather surprised that no one has linked the essay that steve albini wrote circa 1832 about record label math, so here you go.
http://www.negativland.com/albini.html
now granted, it is a little dated and there isn't a single mention of mp3's, downloads, or twitter, but i think it can shed some light on a few things.
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Re:
she's been around for awhile, darling.
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Back to the point.
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So much hate!
We aren't Amanda Palmer-- why spout so much hate for someone trying to get by?
I don't understand. I don't understand all the twisting of things, little digs, cruel nicknames and just trying to seek out any possible thing bad to say about her. Why can't we cut her some slack? Nobody is perfect, and I'm certainly not saying she is. But so much vitriol.... especially for the fact that she's not like every other dull celebrity. I just don't get that hate. She seems to want to spread love and love life. Can't we love too? Or don't love, don't even agree, but name-calling and hate mongering, here, I just don't get.
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Re: I still don't buy it
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Re: Re: Re: Re: AFP
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Re: Neil Gaiman
However.
Calling the guy an idiot for having a relationship with her is out of line and should be off the table. Calling Amanda a "gold digger" is likewise out of line and totally immaterial. They're grownups. Credit them for some intelligence. Where they place their affections and (completely theoretical) financial support is their business and their business only and has precious little to do with the discussion at hand.
I like her music. I think some of the things she does lack class. Neither of these things are pertinent to the original discussion, which was whether her business model can work both for her in the future and for other artists. Let's try and get back on topic.
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I listened to the album and smiled the whole way. It is fantastic, at the core of this is a well written, very original and powerful album.
More power to her I say. I think a lot of people still hang on to a victim mentality when it comes to art writing or music. We have been conditioned to be self deprecating, and accepting of the "starving artist" image. It really is not healthy.
I also think a lot of this discussion would probably not be taking place, lack of class etc if she had a pair of balls.
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Re: Re: Another issue
Also, her fans are not large in #, but they are a cult following and are willing to provide her with room, board, and the like while on tour. They will buy from her as long as she shows the love - which she obviously does. She has become quite self- sustainable. And even if her original noteriety came from the label, that is gone now, and she is doing this on her own.
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Yeah....so?
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Re: I still don't buy it
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Re: also
I find her music very touching and very clever, much as I did in Elvis Costello's first few albums. Her voice appeals to me and I am really impressed with how well she can use a piano.
I'd be curious as to an artist that you found appealing since you seem determined to pull Amanda down.
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Re: Re: AFP and Warner
Then there's this nugget, from Steve Albini:
from "The Problem With Music" (thanks to ehrenohkneel for finding it again):
http://www.negativland.com/albini.html
Back on topic - the one thing these "business practices" all have in common is that they re-connect the band to the fans, without an intermediary. They encourage the fans to have a personal investment in the music, and not just be passive spectators. Another example of this would be Einstuerzende Neubauten's "Supporter" project.
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Re: Re: Re: AFP and Warner
Then there's this nugget, from Steve Albini:
from "The Problem With Music" (thanks to ehrenohkneel for finding it again):
http://www.negativland.com/albini.html
EDIT:
Also along those lines, here's a transcription of the Courtney Love speech to Digital Hollywood:
http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/
Back on topic - the one thing these "business practices" all have in common is that they re-connect the band to the fans, without an intermediary. They encourage the fans to have a personal investment in the music, and not just be passive spectators. Another example of this would be Einstuerzende Neubauten's "Supporter" project.
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Re: Anonymous Howard, Cowering
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Re: Anonymous Coward
amanda palmer has slightly more than 30,000 followers on twitter(somthing like 32,000) i checked.
Your theory isn't legit.
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Re: STOP PAYMENT ON THIS ATTENTION WHORES JUNK!
p.s. i wonder how many of these naysayers work for roadrunner records.
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amanda palmer is a genius
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you guys...
but you need to realize that all of the idiots saying she has no talent, is an attention whore, etc. are just trolls.
they're trying to make us mad for their own amusement, because they have no friends in real life.
they want us to reply and stick up for amanda.
so instead of responding to anything they say, just talk about your own amanda experience.
and....GO!
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Re: you guys...
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Re: Re: you guys...
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Gaiman and Palmer, two idiots seeking power at any cost
http://www.scientology-london.com/beta/files/leaked-neil-gaiman-backstage-colbert-report-and-lin ks-wealden-house-life-improvement-centre.php
Neil Gaiman continues to lie about his Scientology status while funding the cult to the tune of six figures, he is also a Founding Patron of Scientology. It is unlikely Gaiman would associate with a non-Scientologist, so Palmer must be one too but is keeping a low profile so she can sell tampons to her followers.
People are offended by Amanda Palmer because she is a mediocre performer who by her own admission can't write a song or play an instrument. Instead of learning her craft she makes a spectacle of herself. Drawing on herself isn't the problem, it's the fact that her message is so worthless. Amanda Palmer is a vulgar human being who wastes everyones time with her narcissistic self indulgence. She is nothing more than pure ambition. Having nothing worthwhile to contribute won't stop her... she will subject the world to every detail of her existence from her menstruation to the length of her bowl movement because she is so damaged she doesn't exist without an audience. Palmer is drawing the same reaction a circus geek draws when he/she bites the head off a chicken.... meh. gross. Turn the channel.
Gaiman is also slowly transforming into an empty self promoter, each book grows shorter and more devoid of content. He doesn't seem to care what he shills: children's books or mutilation snuff porn with Palmer, what's the difference? Gaiman's always had that creepy Scientology emotional deadness with no sense of what is appropriate, as if he is trying to imitate human behavior. These two have traded their humanity for ambition and lust for power and the emptiness of this choice echos through their work.
Both Gaiman and Palmer share these traits:
1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love (megalomania)
3. Believes they are "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, people (or institutions) who are also "special" or of high status
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement
6. Is interpersonally exploitative
7. Lacks empathy
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
.
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afp-attention whore and scientologist
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Re: Gaiman and Palmer, two idiots seeking power at any cost
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if it comes from teh internets, it muzt be trues!
1. Neil Gaiman (much like Amanda Palmer) shares a great deal of his life on his blog. He has never once mentioned scientology on his blog (it has a search function, you can check for yourself). So if he is a scientologist, he is not openly promoting the faith, unlike other celebrities. These posts always claim that this makes him a liar who is hiding his affiliation. But really, isn't it worse if he does promote it openly? Even if he gives his money to the scientologists, they would theoretically get more if he promoted them openly.
2. All those on the internet who claim he is a scientologist use as their source for this information - the internet. Well, then it must be true.
3. Googling Neil Gaiman with any other famous person he has collaborated with, combined with the word scientology, shows that everyone he has worked with gets some of this scientology accusation splattered on them, with the exception of people who've openly spoken out against scientology, such as Terry Pratchett and Alan Moore. Griefers like you basically want to harass everyone who he works with.
4. Googling almost any celebrity in combination with the word scientology - unless that celebrity has openly spoken against scientology - will show that they all have some link to scientology. Which seems a little unlikely.
5. Anti-scientologists appear to be just as terrible as scientologists. Operation Clambake, the main anti-scientology site, notes that defamation of Suppressive Persons is one of the big bad things that scientologists do which the site is against - how is that different from these online attempts to defame people through weak proof and association?
I'm not a scientologist. The whole thing looks pretty wacky to me, and not to mention was made up by a sci fi writer we might not even know existed if it weren't for his phony religion. But I can't say that they are more harmful than, say, the Catholic church, which I'm also not a member of. Regardless of that, I don't dispute anyone's right to be a Catholic or a scientologist, and I think these attempted character assassinations are ridiculous.
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Are you nuts!!!???
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the only reason she signs and podcasts is because she gets a gross high from it and can also make money off if it. i feel sorry for those fans like me who spent money only to see what a fakeass selfabsorbed bullshitting princess she is.
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the only reason she signs and podcasts is because she gets a gross high from it and can also make money off if it. i feel sorry for those fans like me who spent money only to see what a fakeass selfabsorbed bullshitting princess she is.
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Scientologists are not allowed to leave Scientology unless every person they know disconnects from them. Gaiman's two sisters are big-wigs in the cult; Clair Edwards is head of worldwide recruiting and Lizzie Calcinoe runs Wealden house where Gaiman was recently photographed.
The Gaiman family money trail runs deep. The Gaiman Family USA are Patrons with Honors of Scientology, by 2006 they’d donated at least $100,000.00. Neil Gaiman’s father David Gaiman (now deceased, donated almost 400,000 pounds or $750,000.00.) Gaiman’s entire family are high ranking Scientologists. They also donate through G & G Foods, the Gaiman family company.
2009: Mary and Neil Gaiman (Cornerstone Newsletter) November 2009
2003: THE GAIMAN FAMILY USA Impact magazine #105 Patrons ($100,000.00) You will find them listed in CAPS because they are Patrons with Honors ($100,000.00)
2004: Impact #109 G & G Foods Patrons ($40,000.00)
2004: THE GAIMAN FAMILY USA Impact Magazine #109 Founding Patrons ($100,000.00)[circa September 2004 ]:Founding Patrons are those who became Patrons by the IAS 20th Anniversary (October/November 2004).
The following list appears in Impact 114 [ circa September 2006 ]:
2006: Impact #114 G & G Food Supplies Patrons ($40,000.00)
2006: THE GAIMAN FAMILY USA Impact magazine #114 Patrons ($100,000.00) You will find them listed in CAPS because they are Patrons with Honors ($100,000.00)
2006: Impact magazine #114 DAVID & SHEILA GAIMAN UK Silver Meritorious ($750,000.00)
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Neil Gaiman just donated another $500,000.00 to Scientology in 2010 through his business partner Mary Gaiman who received a “Gold Humanitarian Award.” Gaiman is a Scientologist and so is Amanda “I can’t play a fucking note” Palmer. http://forums.whyweprotest.net/304-celebrity-news/neil-gaimans-scieno-front-65295/
Amanda Palmer is engaged to Neil Gaiman and Gaiman belongs to a cult that opposes free speech and free movement. Scientology runs prison camps for it’s members, litigates enemies into silence and is responsible for suicides and suspicious deaths worldwide. Gaiman grew up being audited and intimidated himself and is used to lying. He may not even realize he’s a hypocrite. Scientology persecutes gay men and woman, by supporting Prop 8 in CA along with so many crazy scams and crimes I can’t list here.
Neil Gaiman’s Scientology family, who extract 6 million dollars a year in vitamin sales to Scientologists would never allow Palmer near their fortune if she had not agreed to support Scientology.
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Twitter
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Amanda Palmer is an ass clown scientologist
The amazing thing is that although Palmer puts enormous effort into her stunts; muff dancing and squirming around in c um filled bathtubs and pretending she's raised a million which is impossible without the help of her cult friends, she still won't put any effort into musicianship. Her songs are uniformly tuneless, crude and awful. What a waste of a life.
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