More Important Saving Lives From Swine Flu Or Protecting Roche's Monopoly?
from the moral-issues? dept
In other parts of the world, it's become acceptable for governments to simply ignore drug patents in order to produce more of necessary drugs in times of health scares. However, the US has mostly shied away from doing that, as the myth of patents as some great encouragement for innovation remains deeply rooted (and, oh yeah, pharmas are big campaign funders). However, with growing concern over the lack of supply for swine flu vaccines, there is some talk over whether or not the US will consider importing generic Tamiflu, even though the drug is still under patent in the US. There are approved generics, which are chemically identical, that are made elsewhere, such as India. However, importing it into the US, while it could save lives, is bound to be massively controversial. However, again, if we're going to have a moral discussion about intellectual property, can someone please explain the moral argument for not being able to use generic drugs in this instance?Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Corporations aren't People
Import the cheap drug, keep people healthy. Tell the filthy whining sick-mongers to shove it.
People >>> Corporate profits
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Re:
Yes, the catch is right there. You can't make it cheaper than India. Importing is the best option you've got.
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Thus, if there is a problem with people not getting enough of a vaccine, the solution is to strengthen our obviously weak patent laws, not to bypass them.
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Exactly what is it about the article that states that Tamiflu is a vaccine?
What I read is that there isn't enough vaccine, so the US is looking to bring in generic Tamiflu to deal with the situation.
NOTHING in the article claims that Tamiflu is a vaccine.
Dillwad????
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Wait...
Hold up....that was a fucking OPTION!!? And they're DEBATING it? What's the fucking debate? Uh, people DYING. That's it. That's the trump card in the debate. This isn't a "people can't afford our version" issue. It's a "there ain't enough for us" fucking issue, god dammit. And you're telling me there's more...out there....and we could have it....except for PATENT FUCKING LAW?
Pant, pant....you know what? They're right! The "myth of patents as some great encouragement for innovation" is true! Because, look...what could motivate someone better than death?
Hey you! Little kid who ISN'T the President's daughters! Innovate me up some new swine flu vaccine or your fucking dead! Motivated yet, you little shits?
Okay, how far gone are we as a people when we don't accept medicine for what is being described as an epidemic because the people that DON'T HAVE ANY MEDICINE LEFT might get their feelings hurt? They don't have any. They don't have any. They don't have any. Get it yet? It isn't there. It isn't fucking there!
Dark Helmet: Hey, Rumsfeld! You got any pull with those Monsanto fucks that bought Searle after you left the company (makers of patented Tamiflu)? Can we get some? Cuz, see, I got me a fever, and the only cure is some Tamiflu...
Rumsfeld: Oh, no sorry. They're all out. Sorry to hear about that fever, my helmeted friend.
Dark Helmet: Ah, no worries. Turns out there are generics from overseas. I'll go grab those before I...you know...fucking die and shit.
Rumsfeld: NO! Don't you fucking do that! Our shit is patented, and you would be a lost sale if you go generic!
DH: Er, won't I be a lost sale when I'm fucking dead in the dirt?
Rumsfeld: Well, for Tamiflu yeah, but Cheney gives me a bonus for all the people I kill...
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Re: Wait...
You're going to have to have a bi-partisan shit-fest, what with the Obama-stration bringing back the fairness doctrine and all.
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Re: Wait...
Well... this is going to be fun and painful... I can feel my balloon knot pucker already... ok... here we go...
Natural selection, Darwin, call it what you will. The population needs thinning. All these things add up to thinning the herd. Katrina, Swine Flu, Bird Flu, AIDS/HIV, Ebola, KHF, ETC, ETC. It is nature's way of saying that we fuck too much and that there are too many shit-po crackhead assholes on the planet. So Nature takes out a few thousand here and there.
Then there is the, far too uncelebrated, Darwin award for douchebags killing themselves in all kinds of preventable ways. But these are Darwin's chosen ones... they manage to find ways to kill themselves even with the safety on.
As far as I am concerned, let nature take its course and let nature thin the herd. I have had swine flu 2 times already and I am doing just fine without some gay ass vaccine. My first time I caught it in Panama in the mid '90s (yes it has existed for a very long time.) 2nd time was last year.
Have fun people... get off the tit.
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Re: Re: Wait...
Can these poor, imperfect people not produce people who don't have these problems? The answer is yes. My parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins all wear glasses. Myself and my two brothers do not.
If we take out the imperfect, we will be left with no one. That's right, not one.
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Re: Re: Re: Wait...
Glasses... I have glasses, and I am not perfect. But you took it in this direction. I know deaf people that are far stronger than typically developing. This has nothing to do with disabilities, other than stupidity and a lack of survival skills.
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Re: Wait...
Indeed, there is some evidence that flu viruses are adapting to Tamiflu quickly and readily, and there is little if any evidence that Tamiflu is all that effective in saving lives.
http://www.newfluwiki2.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1135
More recent, though preliminary, reports seem to be indicating (anecdotally) that Tamiflu is less effective on swine flu and swine flu may develop Tamiflu resistance faster than seasonal flu.
Conclusion: All your comments regarding Tamiflu may be great sabre-rattling and a great way to blow off steam, but even non-patented Tamiflu could be essentially a waste of money to treat swine flu.
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And I'm quite sure that the maker of Tamiflu is not going to accept your argument.
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Of course, I am sure the makers of Tamiflu are doing their best to promote Tamiflu for treatment of flu, but of course they are hardly objective.
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no
"Uh, people DYING. That's it. That's the trump card in the debate."
uh, no. very, very few people are dying. if you want to complain about big pharma then complain about the lack of anti-malaria medication, or the development of new erectile dysfunction drugs instead of antibiotics. The panic over swine flu is bull shit.
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Re: no
Yes, that too, but isn't that a choice by the manufacturers because there isn't any money in that medication?
"or the development of new erectile dysfunction drugs instead of antibiotics"
Again, yes, but that's another choice.
This is different. It's the willfull manufacturer of the patented medicine (Monsanto, developed by the company they bought, Donald Rumsfeld's Searle, also makers of aspartame) not HAVING ANY. They can't meet the demand. And patent law is preventing that demand from being met. And it's a medical situation.
Now, you say it isn't as big a deal as the media is making it out to be? I'm totally with you. But the point is that government officials can't use the Swine Flu to make headlines as a pandemic (and they are) on one hand and then hold up laws that limit the ability to respond to the pandemic. If they do, then what is the point of their existence at all?
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Re: no
"oh, no. very, very few people are dying"
Quick question, how many people do our patent laws have to kill before it becomes enough of a problem? Thanks!
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Comment of the day. :)
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Re: no
Judging by the prevailing political climate in much of the English-speaking world... somewhere in the low tens of millions.
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Famines, genocides, natural disasters.
Now if we're talking about the US government getting involved in the deaths of "americans", then the numbers are drastically lower than tens of millions. If it is poor Black or Hispanic folks, then the number is in the high thousands. If it is rich, young, affluent white people then the number is one.
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How many people have been "killed" by patents, and where is your proof that patents have "killed" people? Your data is interesting, but I fail to see the link between patents and the deaths of anyone.
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As for the other questions, since society has many concerns, some of which are issues, some of which are not perceived as issues, how to we compare the number of people "killed" by patents to other issues so that we can see where we should be putting our resources. A simple question, really. Labelling something a "fallacy" is a nice way to deflect a legitimate question.
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That is, in my opinion, you will get a reaction by (governments of) The West should you show deaths in the millions of "foreigners", thousands of "locals" (or the one white kid).
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Re: no
I'll agree with you that pharma companies are the scum of the earth, but the H1N1 scare isn't bull shit because it is killing people. There are worse diseases, especially in the developing world, but not many in the US that are nearly as preventable.
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Re: Re: no
H1N1 is a fallacy. I have had it 2 times and both times it was nothing more than a bad cold. I did not need medical attention for it. The only reason that children and elderly die from it is because it generates a high fever and it causes other underlying conditions to worsen. Not only that, but the caretakers take too long to recognize it, because they think it is just a cold. Then the person dies due to complications as a result of H1N1, not a direct cause.
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In case you're having trouble with the math, that's about 11 people every week dying from the flu. To give you a point of comparison, New York City has managed to have less than 400 murders all year.
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I don't understand why patents don't last for centuries. Why would anyone invent anything?
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I don't understand why patents don't last for centuries. Why would anyone invent anything?
It's good to know that anti-intellectualism is alive and well at Techdirt.com.
And yes, I'm well aware that the above comment is heavily dosed with sarcasm.
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Don't bother answering my rhetorical question.
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Perhaps the Swine Flu Myth...
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Re: Perhaps the Swine Flu Myth...
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Call it Murder
Imagine a person staggering into a hospital with a life threatening wound and the doctors refusing to help as they see no way to make money helping the wounded man. That is exactly the same as holding back medications.
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Re: Call it Murder
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Re: Call it Murder
"To cause people to become infected and in some cases perish simply to protect the concept of profit or private property rights is murder and our laws should punish those that cause these problems."
Now, my guess is that you have a computer, a home or apartment, a car, and a lot of other stuff. I bet you eat pretty well too. Where do we send the police? Your private property could be converted to food and medical treatment for people that would prevent them from becoming infected and dying. By your comment, you are a murderer.
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I don't understand
IF a patent maximalist is correct and patents are absolutely necessary to encourage innovation, then wouldn't any action taken here undermine big pharma's faith in the patent system, and cause them to no longer innovate and create the next drug that actually does save a significant number of lives?
Isn't this bringing the moral argument in when there is none? There's life saving on both sides, and it sounds like this an example where their fictitious nonexistent side is stronger (more lives saved by future drug encouraged by system, then saved now by generic undermining patent system).
In this case, why were patents (or the length of patent granted) unnecessary for the original drug to be designed and produced? I don't know enough to answer that, but I think that'd be a more compelling argument then saving a few lives now at the risk of many lives in the future.
P.S. "They just aren't necessary" is a good answer, but I'm hoping for better/specifics.
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Corporations of course
/sarcasm.
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Re: Tariff to the patent holder
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Wait a second - Way to buy into the scare tactics
If the US superseded patent laws to thwart this 'pandemic', then there is no reason not to do the same thing next year for the common flu.
If you want to make an argument against pharma patents, fine, do that; but please please please don't trump up the irrational fear of 'swine' flu to suit your argument.
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Re: Wait a second - Way to buy into the scare tactics
OK. I wouldn't have thought of it, but it's a fantastic idea (but not in the patentable sense).
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Re: Wait a second - Way to buy into the scare tactics
Oh good, we agree.
(Any time people are dying and a patent can't or won't meet the demand, the patent should be ignored as long as necessary. Swine flu, bird flu, regular flu, hamster flu, nictitating coliform pancreatic pseudo-mitochondritis, anyting.)
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Re: Re: Wait a second - Way to buy into the scare tactics
You are being short sighted. If you honestly believe that any medicine that has the potential to save human lives shouldn't be protected - then I fail to see the motivation to develop new drugs.
If you need a 'case in point' - look at home much $$ is put towards Malaria or Sickle Cell Anemia; diseases which traditionally have little return via profits.
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Re: Re: Re: Wait a second - Way to buy into the scare tactics
That is already what is happening.
If you honestly believe that any medicine that has the potential to save human lives shouldn't be protected - then I fail to see the motivation to develop new drugs.
That isn't what I said. And even if I had said that, patents are not the only possible motivating factor in producing a product, including medicine.
If you need a 'case in point' - look at home much $$ is put towards Malaria or Sickle Cell Anemia; diseases which traditionally have little return via profits.
Those aren't profitable because the people who need them are poor and live in countries with poor governments, who don't have huge amounts of money to give to the drug companies. If malaria were a major problem in America, drug companies would be falling all over themselves to develop anti-malarial drugs.
Besides which, your case in point is one that exists with current strong patent laws, so if anything that proves the damage that they can do. I actually think it has nothing at all to do with patents, but it certainly doesn't demonstrate how great they are.
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http://www.newfluwiki2.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1135
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Re: Re: Wait a second - Way to buy into the scare tactics
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Tamiflu a Vaccine
Furthermore, Tamiflu generics are available for quite some tme in europe.
You are complaining about bad journalism? What are you doping right here. Tamiflu ist NOT a Swine Flu vaccine. Research a bit... google helps.
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Re: Tamiflu a Vaccine
Right. I never said it was the vaccine. Not sure why you read that into the article, because I never said that.
Furthermore, Tamiflu generics are available for quite some tme in europe.
Uh, again, I didn't say otherwise. This post was about the US.
You are complaining about bad journalism? What are you doping right here. Tamiflu ist NOT a Swine Flu vaccine. Research a bit... google helps.
Actually, reading comprehension helps, since I didn't say what you think I said.
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cipro and anthrax
they really f-ed up on that decision.
so, tell me why this one also isn't more of the same?
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Considering that you can go to any number of websites and order Tamiflu, where is the shortage?
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stop the shilling!!!
And so is tech. So let's distribute free copies of MS Office.
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ideas?
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Non-Moral
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Non-Moral Arguments
(2) The generic versions of the drug have not been approved by the FDA so even if they were permitted to be imported they could not be prescribed by doctors.
(3) There is evidence that seasonal flu is Tamiflu resistant, and is increasingly so:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6250021.ece
To me it seems more like a question of whether Tamiflu is even all that useful.
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Which one of those is going to pay for the medications I need to take every month? Which one is going to pick up the $5000 hospital bill I owe? Which one of those is going to help me pay off the cardiologist I had to see? Which one is going to pay for my on-going doctor visits and blood tests?
Since I don't have insurance, I suppose if I weren't able to pay, the Hospital would tear up the bill, the phramacy would give me my pills for free, mt doctor would go on treating me, the lab would do the blood tests for free, etc, Right? After all, healthcare isn't about the money...
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However, there are a lot of people that provide medical care at little or no cost. I work next door to a clinic that provide low or no cost care and the same doctors who work at the hospital work at that clinic. They may be charging you $5,000, but people at the clinic are paying a fraction of that. Just prove you are poor.
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Use Tamiflu or get the flu?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427345.100-common-cold-may-hold-off-swine-flu.ht ml?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news
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