Liberian Laws Are A Secret Due To Copyright; Even The Gov't Doesn't Have Them

from the you-can't-have-them dept

Fri, Nov 20th 2009 7:39pm — Mike Masnick

We've seen a few ridiculous cases whereby local governments claim copyright on a law, but it's still stunning to see what's going on in Liberia. Tom sends in the news that no one knows what the law covers in Liberia, because one man, leading a small group of lawyers, claims to hold the copyright on the laws of the country and won't share them unless people (or, rather, the government of Liberia) is willing to pay. Oh, and did we mention that the US government paid for some of this?

The story is a bit convoluted, but apparently, Liberia hasn't really had a full copy of its laws, as they were mixed and matched in "incomplete sets" throughout different libraries. A professor at Cornell had begun a (free) project to compile the country's laws, but after he died, a group of lawyers in Liberia took over the project -- and were given $400,000 by the US Justice Department. The lawyers then "numbered, bound, and indexed" all of the recent laws, and claim that because of that, they now own the copyright on it.

While perhaps copyright law is different in Liberia, most places have rejected "sweat of the brow" arguments for copyright. If you didn't create the actual content, you're not supposed to get the copyright. You don't get a copyright just for compiling the work of others without adding anything new. If this lawyer wanted to get paid for the work, he should have negotiated that upfront. Instead, he's holding the country's laws hostage, and asking for $150,000 to $360,000 to turn them over to the government.

What's really amazing is that this guy is currently serving as Liberia's justice minister. The work he did on the laws happened before that, and he claims that he'd give up the laws for free, but that the other lawyers he worked with will not.

Perhaps Liberia should just start from scratch and create all new laws, wiping out the value of these particular locked up laws.

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Filed Under: copyright, laws, liberia

44 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2009 @ 7:41pm

Patent
The method and process of creating new laws has been patented.
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- Anonymous Poster, 20 Nov 2009 @ 7:57pm
  
  Re: Patent
  The method and process of thinking up laws has been patented.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2009 @ 7:44pm

Now taking bets...
How many more posts will Mike Rub out before he starts his weekend?
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- Cecil Thompson, 20 Nov 2009 @ 7:53pm
  
  Re: Now taking bets...
  Well, we're at 17 stories for today alone, when typical weekday is somewhere around 10 stories. Based on the number of coffee cans I found in his garbage a few weeks ago, I'd say he drinks 8-9 pots of coffee every day, or about 30 shots of espresso. (Mildly roasted blend nonetheless--most caffeine)
  
  So he may crank out a few more stories, OR maybe he'll go clean his bathroom. But because I can't smell bleach through the computer, we'll just have to wait.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2009 @ 8:28pm

Librarians have laws!?!
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- Aaron Martin-Colby (profile), 21 Nov 2009 @ 8:01am
  
  Re:
  Ha! That was a lot funnier for me than it probably should have been.
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Is it Doe or Doh?, 20 Nov 2009 @ 8:28pm

I have an answer
Since the country had a semi successful coup with 100 men I am sure a couple guys could drive over to this guys house and "convince" him and his associates to hand over the laws. And if they didn't, they could rough him up a little bit. Of course if charges were pressed against the "thugs", they would need to make sure laws were broken but we don't exactly know what the laws are now do we? Here's an idea, had over the laws and nobody gets hurt.. douche bag.

Thanks for the opportunity to wiki Liberia and get a social studies lesson.
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- (none), 22 Nov 2009 @ 11:05am
  
  Re: I have an answer
  If the laws belong to these lawyers only, the rest of the community doesnt really have to obey them.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2009 @ 8:32pm

Since it is generally understood that Liberia's copyright laws, no matter what they may say, are paid little heed, this claim to rights appears to be little more than a claim for "swamp land" having no intrinsic value.

Liberia is unique because of its historical ties to the United States. Apparently our system of laws was not exported to Liberia when it was first created.
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- Anonymous Coward, 23 Nov 2009 @ 9:35am
  
  Re: swamps
  thats an interesting analogy since swamp lands have a lot of intrinsic value
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Cyanid Pontifex (profile), 20 Nov 2009 @ 8:54pm

Simple: write a new law stating that anyone who attempts to claim copyright over the national laws will be put to death.
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Robert Ring (profile), 20 Nov 2009 @ 9:06pm

On a possible bright side, maybe -- just maybe -- this will teach them why allowing copyrights on laws is a bad idea.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2009 @ 9:18pm

Unenforceable
For extra entertainment value, the claim of copyright over laws logically defeats itself.

Because the government doesn't have access to its laws, it is unable to verify the claim of copyright against the legal system of Liberia.

In the absence of any copyright law that can be verified and enforced by the government, there is no copyright. In order to establish the existence of the claimed copyright under law, the claimant would have to first hand over the law.
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- RicoMon35 (profile), 21 Nov 2009 @ 6:07pm
  
  Re: Unenforceable
  Ad Nauseam for sure!
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2009 @ 9:32pm

does this sound like the CIA is trying topple another government to anyone else?
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- RicoMon35 (profile), 21 Nov 2009 @ 6:09pm
  
  Re:
  No. They aren't involved.
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- Lamorak, 22 Nov 2009 @ 4:32am
  
  Re: CIA Plot
  No - it does not look like a CIA plot to the rest of us. You're just paranoid.
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Mojo Bone (profile), 20 Nov 2009 @ 9:34pm

Unenforceable Is Correct
Furthermore, I hereby declare Liberia a failed state and myself their King.
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Skeptical Cynic (profile), 20 Nov 2009 @ 10:17pm

The MPAA-RIAA look to this and
They have had multiple orgasms thinking about doing the same in the US.
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Tony Orbell, 21 Nov 2009 @ 3:37am

Liberian Laws
Surely the copyright only extends to the original content of the new documents produced. It seems to me that the bulk of the content must effectively be quotes from external sources. This then begs the question. who did this group of lawyers pay for the "exclusive rights"
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- RicoMon35 (profile), 21 Nov 2009 @ 6:11pm
  
  Re: Liberian Laws
  They paid no one. the US piad THEM $400,000.00 to take the compilation job.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2009 @ 6:26am

Depends on the law...
I work for a US company that runs the ship and corporate registry for the Government of Liberia. We actually wrote their Maritime and Corporate law. And that information is available freely online.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2009 @ 7:10am

I have an idea, the government of Liberia should just execute these lawyers, and take back the publicly owned goods.
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intellectual integrity, 21 Nov 2009 @ 8:17am

intellectual integrity
noting ethical here
nothing that requires brain use
so no intellectual integrity involved

yes folks intellectual integrity requires the use of your mind not the control , capitalization and greed and abuse of the mind. Somehting none of this is about. YOU MAKE laws for the people then what? YOU HIDE them ....WTF
so we all can be criminals !!!

JOIN the gangs now you will all need ...friends
"escape from LA style"
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Dustin, 21 Nov 2009 @ 9:13am

So what, exactly, is preventing the government from stomping all over these lawyers? One side has guns and sovereignty, the other has legal memo pads and a book of "laws" that only they know. The solution seems obvious.
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- RicoMon35 (profile), 21 Nov 2009 @ 6:14pm
  
  Re:
  The lead lawyer involved is currently serving as Liberia's justice minister. That kinda puts a damper on retribution eh?
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  - nasch (profile), 23 Nov 2009 @ 9:25am
    
    Re: Re:
    The military is probably not controlled by the ministry of justice. If all they want is to show up with some guns and ask for the books (after all, who's to say if subtly menacing actions are even illegal in Liberia?) the army should do fine.
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Richard (profile), 21 Nov 2009 @ 10:55am

This is actually a bit different
Hang on - this isn't the usual abuse of copyright.

Think of this like the garage holding on to your car until you pay for the repairs and it doesn't seem so bad.

Remember, this guy only wants to be paid once for the work he did - not every time someone copies the laws in future.
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2009 @ 11:46am
  
  Re: This is actually a bit different
  "Think of this like the garage holding on to your car until you pay for the repairs and it doesn't seem so bad."
  
  Yeah, except it's not a car repair, it's more like cleaning your car and then charging you for a new car. And oh by the way, the "mechanic" has been on your salary while doing the work. So I don't think your analogy is very fitting.
  
  It's just a money grab.
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  - Richard (profile), 21 Nov 2009 @ 2:56pm
    
    Re: Re: This is actually a bit different
    It's not clear to me from the original article that they were paid for the later part of the work.
    
    The size of the funding from the US DoJ suggests that the amount they are asking for is not unreasonable if (and it's a big if) they weren't paid for the latter half of the work.
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- RicoMon35 (profile), 21 Nov 2009 @ 6:16pm
  
  Re: This is actually a bit different
  He and his firm did. USA paid them $4000,00.00
  Read the article again.
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  - RicoMon35 (profile), 21 Nov 2009 @ 6:17pm
    
    Re: Re: This is actually a bit different
    OOps, I meant, $400,000.00. :
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    - Richard (profile), 22 Nov 2009 @ 12:01pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: This is actually a bit different
      "Banks says the DoJ funding wasn't enough to cover his costs. So when DoJ declined to give him more, he asserted a claim of copyright on the work,"
      
      This is basically a dispute over a contract to do some work.
      
      Banks is simply using copyright as a tool to get paid (just once).
      
      He's not claiming copyright on the laws themselves - just on his "organised version". (He says that the Liberian Government can go back to the old scrappy versions he used as input).
      
      This sort of situation arises quite commonly (I've been in it myself). Here is another example: You do some work (such as writing a program) for a company, company goes bust without paying you.
      
      Another company buys out the assets of the first company and attempts to use your work without paying. You have to sue for copyright infringement to get paid.
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hrrrrm, 21 Nov 2009 @ 10:42pm

WHERE is liberia
ya like WHO CARES
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Mojo Bone (profile), 22 Nov 2009 @ 1:29am

I do. After all, I'm King of Liberia, as far as we know...
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NullOp, 22 Nov 2009 @ 5:53am

Well...
I am going to stop saying "This is the dumbest sh&t I ever heard of" because something always comes along that is way dumber.

At this point, lawyers need to be re-educated and made to do something useful...
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Nov 2009 @ 11:01am

I was under the impression that Copyright can't apply to things like rules or laws, because they are not creative works, per se, but rather are required components for the proper functioning of some other system that utilizes them as a collection.
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Call me Al, 23 Nov 2009 @ 1:52am

I've actually got tears in my eyes from laughing so much. How utterly ridiculous this is.
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Anon, 23 Nov 2009 @ 2:20am

Clarification
The lead lawyer is the FORMER Justice Minister, not the current one. There is more comprehensive coverage of this issue here:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/11/12/hes_got_the_law_literally_in_his_hands
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- Mike Masnick (profile), 23 Nov 2009 @ 3:59am
  
  Re: Clarification
  The lead lawyer is the FORMER Justice Minister, not the current one. There is more comprehensive coverage of this issue here:
  
  Um, that link is what this entire post was based on, and it seems to indicate he is currently the justice minister. is there more info saying he is not?
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Overcast (profile), 23 Nov 2009 @ 6:57am

Sad thing is - how much 'closer' each day the 'western world' gets to this.
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Boston Bankruptcy Lawyer, 23 Nov 2009 @ 8:30am

Amazing
I can't believe that an entire set of laws is being held hostage.
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Almost Anonymous (profile), 23 Nov 2009 @ 9:59am

Copyrighting laws is full of win!
Open scene:

Cop: Hey you, you're breaking copyright law!

Man: Oh, jeez, I didn't know; can I see the law?

Cop: Ignorance of the law is no excuse! You're under arrest. And yes, you can see the law but we have to charge you a licensing fee. If you can't afford the fee, you can't see the law.

Man: You want to charge me money to see the law by which you're arresting me, for a crime I was unaware of?

Cop: Yes.

Man: Crap.
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Crossword, 23 Aug 2016 @ 3:04am

Like Really
The one who compiled law has copyright on law.
So to even to dismiss this claim of lawyers we need law on which these lawyer have copyright.
Seems tricky.
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