Mininova Deletes Most Torrents Under Court Threat
from the another-mole-wac'd dept
Back in August, we noted that a Dutch court, at the urging of anti-piracy group BREIN (which has a history of questionable tactics), had ordered Mininova to remove all infringing links from its index. Even though the court admitted that Mininova itself was not infringing, it was told to remove any torrents that linked to infringing material. Since there's simply no way to know whether the torrents link to infringing material, and tests of some filtering solutions proved to not do a very good job, the site has decided to remove all torrents other than those specifically approved by the site. End result? The entertainment industry may have wac'd another mole, as Mininova users simply scatter to other providers. But the industry hasn't done anything to get people more interested in buying. How many more moles get wac'd before anyone figures this out?
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Filed Under: bittorrent, copyright, mininova, netherlands
Companies: brein, mininova
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Moles galore...
I hope and pray that they will collectively "get it" and join the rest of us in the 21st Century, embrace the technology and modify their business models so "we" would rather pay them once again for their products.
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Re: Moles galore...
I saw that Mininova went legit the other day. I've never downloaded so much music before.
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4 more years, at least
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Re: 4 more years, at least
For example: I reconnected my XBox 360 to the net this weekend after having been offline at home for a few months. I was looking forward to using the new Last.fm service but I'm in the "wrong" country apparently, even though I've used the service via PC many times. I was also refused access to the 1 v 100 game, and have previously been refused the option to buy XBox Original games because I no longer live in the country in which I signed up the account. I was also refused the option to buy Star Wars: KOTOR through Steam because my work address is in a different country to my home address. I missed the cheap price while disputing this - in the EU, where there's meant to be free trade between member nations!
Meanwhile, ever hear of a "pirate" site refusing people access to music or games based on geographical location? Me neither. They are literally refusing service to potential customers, then complain when P2P traffic is up. Until that stops, they will lose. That's not even mentioning the business tactics they use when allowing people to buy things (e.g. iTunes movies 2-3 or more times more expensive than DVDs or windowing release dates to make large portions of the population to wait to pay money while pirated copies are always available).
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Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
Of course "pirate" sites don't refuse anyone, why would they? They start off with the premise of thievery, so why would they have any other restrictions? As Minninova has shown, there is plenty of money being made by pirate sites selling ads and traffic, so why would they want to refuse anyone? Their products are stolen / borrowed / purloined, they don't have any great contractual or legal restrictions.
It would be like comparing a drug store to a street corner drug dealer. Both may have Oxycontin, but the legal drug store required things like a prescription, ID, and so on. The corner drug dealer sells to anyone (even your children) without restriction, because by nature, they are already breaking the law.
As for your Xbox things, I would suggest that you just need to sign up to a new account in your new country, and quit offering up your work information to them. If you want to make your own life difficult and use that to justify piracy, by all means. But every one of your issues is easily resolved if you go at it in a straight forward manner.
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Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
I didn't say I pirated anything. I said that I tried to legally access a music streaming service, an online game and a game download and was refused because I happened to be sitting on the wrong patch of dirt at the time. I had money in my account waiting for one of these, and it was actively refused.
No, I don't want to sign up for another XBox Live account because I would not be able to transfer my existing XBox achievements and I have not been able to get confirmation that I would be able to get my content in my native language.
My point is simple - if the industry is so scared about losing sales through piracy, they should start by offering legal services to customers without making them jump through hoops to access legal material. Especially those who are still willing to pay upfront for their goods (for example, I will not pirate KOTOR after my money was refused, I'm just not going to buy it at the new price).
Your drug analogy is idiotic, btw. There is absolutely nothing stopping them from offering their content across borders, except perhaps their own licencing agreements (I can import any CD, DVD or game physically with no restrictions but this is incredibly inconvenient). They're only restricted by their own rules, and may even be breaking the law themselves in some way by refusing to sell across EU borders. Even if not, it's hardly the same thing.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
I legally obtained the game at a cheaper price that I was offering to pay Microsoft (£5 or about US$8 each compared to 1200 MS points (£10/$16-ish) each). Not only did they lose out on that money, they have lost future purchases from me, and I have been greatly incovenienced as a consumer as I had to wait 2 weeks for delivery of those games.
No laws were broken, but money that MS will probably chalk down to "OMG piracy" was lost needlessly.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
Your Xbox thing I am sure can be resolved. Now that you have restated the issue, I think that both of them could be fixed (native language may be an issue depending on their network layout and if they have languages available in all countries). To be fair, the language issue isn't any different from retail, I wouldn't expect to find english editions of software in every country, not would I expect to find norwegian versions in the US retail stores. However, I am confident that if you really worked on it, there would be a solution.
The industry loses sales to piracy mostly because people have come to understand they can get something for nothing. Xbox people cutting off millions of accounts took the wind out of many people's sails, because they came to understand that they cannot pirate software or mod their consoles and still get access to all the goodies.
The drug analogy is actually perfect. The drugs are legal products, but there are restrictions that stop their distribution that must be followed. Pirates / Drug dealers don't have to follow the rules, they just drive the stuff over the borders and sell to anyone anytime.
As for EU rules, well, let's just say that some of them are truly anti-business and anti-trade. Each country may have a different distributor, and contractually they may be forbidden from selling in other territories. If you followed EU law, companies could dump all their local distributors and basically put a whole bunch of people out of work, but that would somehow be GOOD. Yeah.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
OK, I will:
"If you want to make your own life difficult and use that to justify piracy, by all means."
That certainly reads like you were accusing me of piracy.
"However, I am confident that if you really worked on it, there would be a solution."
Oh, there are solutions, none of which are anywhere near as good for either myself or Microsoft as simply allowing people to buy from the location of their choice. I can import a physical copy of the game, which will take several weeks to arrive. Due to the lack of convenience, I will probably be willing to pay less for the game, and the lack of convenience removes the temptation for impulse buying, which loses MS future revenue.
The ideal solution - that Microsoft offers copies of their games (in the case of the Halo games, product they published themselves) in the language of their choice - is extremely easy in a technical and legal sense. Either they are refusing to do so or their licences don't allow them to, so the ball is in MS's court.
"Xbox people cutting off millions of accounts took the wind out of many people's sails, because they came to understand that they cannot pirate software or mod their consoles and still get access to all the goodies."
Don't believe the propoganda. Hacked consoles have all sorts of other uses, from disabling region controls so that people can use legally purchased games and DVDs from other countries, to people cheating online. The boogeyman of piracy is not the only issue, and probably not the major one (I personally support the ban to get rid of the cheats, but wish I could still hack the console to play my legally obtained region 1 DVDs).
"The drugs are legal products, but there are restrictions that stop their distribution that must be followed."
No, the restrictions for drug are government enforced for the protection of citizens. Regional restrictions on digital products are an artificial restriction placed by the industry's own rules, and usually by attempts to enforce existing business models onto a digital market that doesn't require them. Completely different scenarios.
"Each country may have a different distributor, and contractually they may be forbidden from selling in other territories."
Exactly. The *industry's own rules* to try and enforce international borders on a worldwide open network. Their own contracts are the problem, and that's their own fault.
"If you followed EU law, companies could dump all their local distributors and basically put a whole bunch of people out of work, but that would somehow be GOOD."
Yes, it would be. It would reduce overheads, increase availability of products and encourage true international competition, most likely reducing prices for end consumer and increasing saless. It would suck if your job was dependent on the artificial scarcities, but that's life.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
That certainly reads like you were accusing me of piracy.
Nope, doesn't read like that at all (unless you have a guilty conscience). The point is justifying piracy as a concept, not in justifying your own piracy.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
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Predicting piracy != Justifying piracy
In the first case one is explaining why a given situation will give rise to piracy. One does not have to condone piracy in order to do that.
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Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
Two, with the lack of borders online, there is absolutely no reason why he can't use last.fm on XBL. It's just some stupid limitation implemented by morons who can't or won't see where the world is going.
Third, If a company refuses a willing paying customer, they should prepare for that user to go elsewhere to get what they want. If a company intentionally makes it harder for those willing to pay for their product, they should prepare for the customers to go elsewhere.
Why is this so damn hard for you to get?
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Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
You forgot to say they support terrorism.
Anonymous Shill, you sort of make me laugh with your comments.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
Rather than debate the IDEA, you debate the person. I can only say that appears to make me right, and makes it appear you have no argument.
Please Fin, debate the subject, not the person.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
But in case you're not a troll/shill....
infringement != theft. Your problem is you don't see the difference between a property right and a regulatory power.
With property rights you're preventing others from taking something in your possession, with copyright/patents you're preventing others from making more of the object in question.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
Wow....just.....wow.....
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Re: Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
Anonymous Shill, you sort of make me laugh with your comments.
woah, easy on the sensationalism partner.
i'll have you know that industry shills are serving alongside U.S. troops right now in iraq & afghanistan and winning the war on terror.
industry shills are brave americans and deserve your respect, not your scorn. that AC is just doing his job, of protecting us from terrorism, fair use, and consumer advocacy.
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Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
Also, I heard about this last week. It's a shame that these morons are only after (world domination) Money.
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Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
http://www.thewhir.com/web-hosting-news/100207_Demonoid_Blocks_Canadian_Users
;-)
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Re: Re: Re: 4 more years, at least
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Re:
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Re:
Bittorrent can be used for legit purposes, but as a system, they are very, very tolerant of people using for illegal purposes, and don't seem to care. Legitimate businesses work hard to seperate themselves from the criminal element in the real world, why should it be any different online? If you spend your entire life associating with known criminals, don't be surprised if most people think you are a criminal as well.
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Re: Re:
Bittorrent is a protocol, nothing more. Blaming it for infringement is like saying that HTML is responsible if someone uploads an HTML formatted copy of the new Dan Brown book to their website. You don't blame telephones if someone uses them to commit crimes, why blame the torrent protocol?
"Legitimate businesses work hard to seperate themselves from the criminal element in the real world, why should it be any different online?"
There's nothing to "separate" - it's a protocol, not a business. Like most technology, it's neutral. Its usage depends on the user, not the protocol.
Torrents can, and are, used for many legitimate purposes and save businesses around the world millions on bandwidth and other costs associated with hosting large files. The problem is that the demand for content is not being adequeately met by the industry, especially internationally.
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Re: Re: Re:
No, the problem is that people think they have the rights to anything, anytime, with no strings, no price, and no restrictions. They are frustrated by legal restrictions that exist for various reasons.
Example is cars: All cars are the same, right? Try to import a car from the US to Europe. Good luck. The tail lights have to change, the headlights have to change, the mirrors have to change, the car may not be legal if it doesn't mean certain noise restrictions, pedestrian safety issues, and any number of other things. As a car lover, it would be easy to be frustrated by the rules.
I suspect that if you look a little deeper, there are reasons why not everything is available everywhere. Example, in some countries or regions, you cannot legally sell an english language copy of software. You must sell it in the local language only. Or it cannot be sold in the country unless a local language version is also available.
There are plenty of reasons, you need to learn to look further than the simple excuse of blaming "the industry" for everything. EU laws are enough to drive most companies out of business.
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I don't say it that way because the laws aren't the only thing in the way, but they do most often create the situations that create the blockages and seperations.
While the EU has "united", most of the distribution systems in place still are based on the individual laws of each of the countries involved. Each one was different, and in many cases are still different (and often directly opposed to EU laws) that make it almost impossible still to offer a pan-EU distribution system.
Let's say you want to release a pan EU movie. You need versions in Engish, French, German, Spanish, Greek, Italian, Norwegian, Swedish, Flemish, Serbian, Austrian, Czech, Russian, Finnish, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Polish, Romanian... and so on. Now, you could hold back release in all regions until all the translations are done (and government approved in many cases) or you could roll them out one after another, perhaps on a staggered schedule. Perhaps the main English, French, German, Spanish, and Italian version roll out, and then it takes a month or two before the other ones are done.
Now, until you have a Finnish version, are you allowed to run the movie in english in Finland? Probably not. So you have to wait.
Language is a real issue.
Now, from a marketing standpoint, you only have to look at the Twilight movies to see how things work. The release is staggered all over the world, in part to assure that the stars are available to appear in each country / area / region to attend the "premiere" of the movie in that area. It's great marketing, and it really doesn't change anything for the end users (waiting a couple of days isn't the end of the world).
So in the end, the forces that make movies come out at different times in different areas are legal and marketing, and while the internet allows us to peep over the border, it doesn't change the laws of our own countries.
PaulT, considering where you live right now, might the laws of the country be the reason you can't get things in certain languages?
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There is nothing to stop a company making DVDs in languages other than the one in the country in which it is sold, at least in the countries I've lived in. Currently, my local supermarket has a selection of books in English, as well as English music. There's an English supermarket nearby that deals in English games and DVDs. Sometimes these are English-only, sometimes not. They are, however, prevented from selling US imports due to rules surrounding region coding - an artificial restriction. Similarly, local cinemas show some movies subtitled instead of dubbed into Spanish. I've seen at least 2 that were English-only, and these were advertised as such (relatively rare as the locals don't like that).
As for Eastern European countries, I'm not sure. I don't think it's a major issue - for example, most Wii games here come with just 5 or 6 langauges (usually English, French, Spanish, Italian and German, sometimes Dutch) and they're all sold like that in Eastern Europe AFAIK. Regardless, my points relate mostly to digital downloads, not physical object. Freed from the need for an expensive manufacturing run, there should be lower restriction on digital products, not more. I can import a game physically from the UK and buy a CD from Amazon - yet, Amazon are not allowed to sell me MP3s and I can't download Halo from its original publisher. It makes no sense, except as an attempt to retain an outdated business model.
"So in the end, the forces that make movies come out at different times in different areas are legal and marketing, and while the internet allows us to peep over the border, it doesn't change the laws of our own countries."
Again, I'm not aware of laws that would stop the sale of products from other countries. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am I would be complaining about those laws rather than the companies directly. I'd almost like to be proven wrong, since I can at least do something about lawmaking, however small my contribution is (I currently have votes in the UK, Spanish and European elections and know who my parliament members are). With industry, my voice is not heard and I'm accused of being a "pirate" when I point out my frustration.
As for marketing, that's the crux of the problem. These things are being sold in outdated ways with artificial restrictions intended to increase sales. The industry needs to learn that marketing on the internet is international and they shouldn't be stopping genuine customers from obtaining products that pirates will already supply them with. Whether you agree with it morally, if the the choice is "buy this pirate DVD for $5 NOW", "download it for nothing NOW" or "wait 8 months till we decide to market & release it in your country", many people will not choose the latter option. There's no real need for it in a connected world.
My entire point is that these restriction are backfiring and *losing* sales (or at least encouraging sales to the "wrong" places - e.g. I've often bought DVDs from the US if their UK theatrical release is after the US DVD release). With the internet, there's no excuse for this except for industry mismanagement and a lack of understanding of the modern consumer.
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The laws for different cars exist mainly due to different safety standards as well as other differing conditions and rules (e.g. smaller roads, different terrain & road types, air pollution levels, different fuel octanes, metric vs imperial, different sides of the road/car in some places!). Maybe some rules are too restrictive but they are mostly about safety - a much more valid concern than anything the entertainment industry can muster.
The rules that the entertainment industry abides by are normally of their own doing, to protect their own profits. For example, UK & Australian cinema releases are usually windowed away from US dates so that prints can be reused, and smaller European countries may follow much later. Additional languages take time to add to games, so restrictions are added so that sales aren't cannibalised for those who are OK with the Japanese/English language releases instead, and so on...
I can buy a small selection of English language releases where I currently am (including books, CDs and DVDs with no other language than English), but the stores are not allowed to sell me region 1 DVDs, for example. this makes no real sense except to stop me importing cheaper, often higher quality, releases. this often backfires, as per my initial complaints, and many are choosing to get the free pirated downloads rather than jump through hoops or wait.
Oh, there *were* reasons for regional restrictions, when the only way to buy something was as a physical item and each product had to go through an expensive production process. When incompatiblities between regions (PAL/NTSC/SECAM/etc) actually mattered (most modern TVs in Europe are at least PAL & NTSC compatible). Keeping them around to maintain marketing regions is just dumb, and mostly contract, not legally based. The main criticism is that the industry attacks the internet rather than embracing the many advantages it offers more open-minded distributors.
The best way to remove illegal activity, be it underage drinking, drugs or "piracy", is to remove the demand, not the supply. The industry will play the mole game until they actually offer reasonable alternatives that don't tell large segments of the world that they're in the wrong country, or restrict them in other ways (proprietary formats, DRM, rootkits, etc) that the "pirates" do not.
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So your suggestion is the equivalent of giving beer to 12 year olds?
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PaulT is making a very valid argument IMO, you might not agree with him, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Companies are limiting the availability of their product while "pirates" are removing those limits. Is it really so hard for you to grasp that people are going to take the path of least resistance? Sure you might not agree with it and sure it isn't legal, but the fact remains that people are doing it.
So how do you stop it? Do you sue the people who are your fans? Doesn't seem to be working so well over the last, oh 10 years or so. So maybe they should recognize that these bit torrent sites are actually providing a service that people want. If there was a legal and cheap way to get these digital files that could compare to the torrent sites you would see piracy numbers drop off. Sure some people would continue to take the files without paying, but lots would pay.
At this rate we'll never know, by the time the media companies offer what the consumer wants they'll have sued everyone into the poor house or jail at this rate.
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I honestly believe we should let everyone vote. I am a little eccentric, though, so don't mind me.
Seriously. I think letting children have the right to access the voting process would be good for democracy.
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http://mnstat.com/images/blog/index.html
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More stupidity
Hopefully they are not powerful enough to negate the past 50 years of technological advancement, but who knows?
In the US it seems like Hollywood runs the country.
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Re: More stupidity
Them and the pharmaceutical/agricultural corporations.
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this is really bad....
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WHACKED
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Re: WHACKED
It's not that difficult to not be an asshole.
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Re: Re: WHACKED
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Re: Re: WHACKED
whacamole is that green stuff you put on tacos, dumbass.
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Re: WHACKED
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Re: WHACKED
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Re: Re: WHACKED
I would suggest not accusing anyone of being stupid if you are going to provide incorrect information.
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Re: Re: Re: WHACKED
We're on a roll!
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Not My Rant
So when I say that P2P technologies are not only here to stay, they are developing and evolving at a breakneck pace, I know what I am talking about. Adapt or perish.
The approach taken by the CRIA (and affiliates) to P2P sharing has a lot in common with Prohibition "experiments" by various countries in the early to mid 1900. In the US it took 14 years for the laws to be repealed. We now live in the "fast paced" internet age, and any laws enacted to "assist" the cause of shutting down P2P sharing will probably be repealed within 14 months (after a quick change of government).
Beware any "3 strikes" laws. The bigger you are, or the more you depend on the internet (are you listening CRIA? RIAA? MPAA?) the bigger the target. Unless there are special "exemptions" in the laws (try writing THAT into law nowadays), for every "complaint" you issue against a P2P sharing individual, you will get 1000 against you, your agents, and anyone associated with you. Monitoring for P2P infringement is very difficult without an internet connection, and you will lose a dozen to a hundred for every "complaint" you make. Your connections are a LOT easier to find than the infringing ones. It will become a game to find you and shut you down. And you will have sponsored the "legal platform" to do so.
Have you ever played "wack-a-mole"? Do you think you can win if the moles are smarter (in tech terms) than you are, and their population is growing faster than yours?
The "new age" is already here. In the case of music and movies, P2P sharing doesn't generally happen because it's "free", it happens because it's convenient. The bar has been set. If you want your customers back, you have to meet or beat that level of convenience, in all aspects, at a value level they will accept. Adapt or die.
I would prefer to see all copyright holders be compensated for their works. I hold a few myself. But I am also a realist, with enough technology and psychology smarts to know what will work and what won't. Using the internet as a distribution network is almost zero cost "per unit". You can either play into the "new age" and make a few cents profit per unit, or you can fight it and collect nothing but disdain and distrust. Unfortunately, there isn't room for multiple levels of management or expensive advertising campaigns in this model. The smaller shops will not only survive, they will flourish.
Stronger copyright infringement punishment won't help. What is the psychology of individuals that think the only reason most people in a society "obey laws" is because of the fear of consequences? I am married to a criminologist, and people that think this way are only a short step from criminal acts themselves. The only thing that holds them back, are the threat of consequences. No guts. Thankfully, the vast majority of society doesn't think this way."
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We have technology to colse pill mills why dont we use it
can use FAKE ID. Until we use biomedtrics and a real time system more pills will flow into the streets and our kids will pay the price. It's about job security. Get pissed! Please. Get pussed. BioScriptRx.com will save billions of tax dollars and it's FREE so I ask why are we not using it? Again Job Security.
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opinion
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