Is It Really Such A Problem If People Sell Your Works? Or Is It Just Free Market Research?
from the not-too-hard-to-figure-out dept
One of the key questions that comes up when you discuss the concept of a world without copyright is "what's to stop others from just copying that book/DVD/CD etc. and selling it themselves, thus making the money that you could have made." The answer is that there's usually a lot preventing it. Filmmaker Nina Paley, a big supporter of culture without relying on copyright, has a great post discussing the "what's stopping you" question, where she notes that most people simply won't go through the hassle. However, what's more interesting is that even if people do start selling your works, it's not necessarily a bad thing. This is the similar to the discussion we recently had about others making money off of your content. If they're able to do so, it often suggests some sort of demand that you haven't met. As Paley notes, it's free market research:In general, I would much prefer you bought Sita merch from the Sita Merch Empire than from a CafePress store. Reasons include: I know the Merch Empire merch is high quality, I personally designed and like all the products there, and a much higher % of the money goes to me. CafePress merch tends to be overpriced for the quality, and CafePress takes almost all the profits unless the seller sets prices absurdly high.Indeed. This is also why we've said time and time again that it's perfectly fine if you want to copy this blog and try to sell ads against it (or make money some other way). If someone actually figures out something that works well, then that's useful info to us, and would allow us to then incorporate those findings into our own offering. That's actually good for everyone...
That said, Drakar's store offers Sita merch that doesn't exist at the Merch Empire. If I offered mugs, mousepads and stickers, he wouldn't have needed to make a Cafe Press store in the first place. If he actually sells any, it will demonstrate there is demand for such products. Then I can offer the same or similar products at my store. Drakar is essentially providing free market research, as are any other "competitors." If any of them do exceptionally well, I'll know what merch I should be selling.
This is why old-school economists say competition is good for businesses. It is. Too bad there's so little real competition in our supposedly "free market democracy."
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: copyright, market research, nina paley, selling
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Really...
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Re: Really...
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Re: Re: Really...
I wouldn't expect you to tell. Why would you?
Now you're competing with me ... but really, you're competing with your own content.
Indeed. And I think my readership is smart enough to know that it makes more sense to go to the original source. Not only that, many of them know that if they want me to discuss stuff, I'll do it here.
While you're still spending to generate more content, I can use all the money and time I would be spending making content in order to recruit YOUR audience.
Good luck. If you can figure out a way to do it, more power to you.
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Again, I'm still wondering what you mean. How would this be possible? We set up our business model so that the more people who read our content, the better off we are. If it's on some other site that's *GOOD* for us. It doesn't harm us at all.
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When others need you for original content they will end up paying you back, you just need to keep producing.
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Huh? This doesn't make any sense. Even if the content is on someone else's site and they don't link back to us we still benefit.
But the point is, if people LIKE the content, they tend to want to go to the source.
And what else is at the source is the fact that we'll discuss it here. I won't necessarily go to your site and discuss stuff in the comments there.
And most people are smart enough to know to go to the original source for the content, rather than some scraper site. They value getting it here. They'll look on your as a parasite.
Unless you're targeting an audience of dumb readers. I guess that could be a goal. But I figure most readers are smart enough to prefer the source, where they know they can actually interact with the people who created the original content.
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Re: Really...
The only reason why anybody would do that is if that other site offered something additional of significant value--at which point there's nothing stopping Mike from adding that very thing to techdirt's offering and voila...everybody returns to the improved techdirt that provides the original content.
I would have thought this was obvious to anybody that read the post since I'm essentially just paraphrasing, but some of the readers are evidently of a deficient reading level. Let me know if you want me to repeat this in Dr. Seuss format.
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Let me know if you want me to repeat this in Dr. Dre format.
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Ha ha
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moore850 -> "most legitimate businesses have to pay to license content for commercial use."
Somehow these two trains of thought do not mesh - or maybe you think they do ?
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yeah, but no one trusts those licenses.
for a great many of us it's GPL or don't bother.
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Re: Re: Re: Really...
These characteristics go a long way toward making the Techdirt business model hard to copy profitably (and they also make it easy to give the content away).
Mike or others may claim that this makes the business model here especially smart given the current climate on the Internet, and in some sense that is true. What I have a much harder time believing is that content with these characteristics (cheap, raw, ephemeral, short, frequent) is an adequate substitute for content with other characteristics (expensive, polished, archival, long, infrequent).
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archival
My work is sometimes long-form, and often infrequent, and is doing much better under copyleft than copyright.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Really...
These characteristics go a long way toward making the Techdirt business model hard to copy profitably (and they also make it easy to give the content away).
You do realize that the *post* was actually about a movie, that was neither short-form, nor cheap to produce, nor does it have a short expiration date.
In other words, the original basis of this story responded to all your points already.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Really...
Heh. You do know that we put together a bunch of this "cheap, raw, ephemeral, short, frequent" content into an "expensive, polished, archival, long, infrequent" book, right? And it sold pretty damn well for us.
Amazing how that kinda thing works out.
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Re: Re: Re: Really...
Ok. So how come the dozen or so sites that copy the content from here get no traffic? How come they get no comments on their blogs? By your logic, they'd be much better off. Yet we get all the traffic and all the comments...
In case you didn't realize, most legitimate businesses have to pay to license content for commercial use.
Except those using public domain content.
Even most "free" open-source software packages require fees for commercial use.
Really?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Really...
a good lawyer could help you claim copyright over current content at any time as long as it has your name attached to it, so I don't think your argument stands that your content is "public domain" per se, i think you'd still go after someone if they really affected your site's traffic by using your stuff;
yeah, i think most open-source apps have pay commercial options, especially the really large ones.
Unfortunately I don't have time to address all of these, but hopefully others will see my side and not just bash me here. Obviously I'm playing devil's advocate in order to make sure that all the avenues are covered, but basically:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Really...
a good lawyer could help you claim copyright over current content at any time as long as it has your name attached to it, so I don't think your argument stands that your content is "public domain" per se, i think you'd still go after someone if they really affected your site's traffic by using your stuff;
Um. Any lawyer would immediately point to the many, many, many times where I have declared all my content in the public domain and I would get laughed out of court.
On top of that it would destroy my credibility. Why would I ever do that?
Even more important, as I already explained to you, we benefit the more my content is spread. I have no reason to get upset about you using my content.
So, no, we would not sue. There are many reasons not to sue, and no reasons to sue. Why do you insist we would?
yeah, i think most open-source apps have pay commercial options, especially the really large ones.
Hmmm. MySQL? Nope. Apache? Nope. Linux? Nope. Help me out here...?
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They do not put up pay walls. Red Had certainly have all their software under the GPL. In fact, CentOS is a rebuilt from source clone of RHEL (Red Hat's Linux based operating system, itself mostly under the GPL).
You pay for services relating to software, but there's no pay wall for the software itself - support, integration (business or OEM's that don't have the expertise in-house) amongst others. They use free distributions to drive use, with the higher use driving demand and value to other things. Very similar to the way how Techdirt uses free content, and on top of that provides certain products or services whose demand and value increases the more people are able to view their content.
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This is actually a great example of a reason to buy something (service) leveraging a free infinite good.
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You think incorrectly.
Most open-source projects that get ANY traction and developer support are 100% free for most if not all uses. You aren't paying for a commercial license if you do pay, but you are paying for professional support. So, if you have a problem installing MySQL or PHP or Apache or Red Hat or any number of other open-source software packages, then you have a resource to go to for assistance. THAT's what you're paying for. The software itself is free to install, just you get no help if you have questions or problems.
With most major OSS projects, you are free to install, modify, redistribute however you see fit.
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Re: Re: Re: Really...
Site hosting and maintenance cost money too. Granting that you won't be spending anything on content generation, you'll still have other costs that you'll need to recover.
The real value of this site, in my opinion, is not in the quality of Mike's writing. The real value of this site is in the way posts are discussed in the comments section.
I mean, if you set up a copied site of Techdirt, I won't go there since I'd be missing the shill comments and the counter-comments of people like Dark Helmet. Of course, Ima Fish won't be in your site too. Doctor Strange won't be in your site too. Anti-Mike won't be in your site too. And so on and so forth.
Now, I don't know what Techdirt's secret is, but I'm pretty sure that this site's earning power has a lot to do with audience participation and satisfaction. But definitely, a rip-off site (that you will be spending on) will have a hard time generating the same type of participation and satisfaction from its audience, if ever the site can accumulate some.
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Re: Really...
My guess is that your guess is wrong. See, the part of TechDirt that is easilly copied, the "content" is actually not the sole reason for the traffic. As this thread itself demonstrates, it's the community. So, even if someone did copy TechDirt -- which people apparently already do -- they never get nearly the traffic that TechDirt itself does because the readers of those ripoff sites eventually find their way here and see the benefits of reading the original.
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Re: Really...
Why don't you go build that site that uses all techdirt's content but it's so much better that it gets all the traffic. Go right ahead.
'What if's and 'Might be's are fine and all; but if you really want an answer to that question, then you need to proceed with some actions which will bring about results.
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Assuming of course you put this into practice, and aren't simply trying to get a rise out of people, or thinking you're showing us up by getting us and Mike that this would be OK - As if affirming what we've already said is somehow showing us up.
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That's the definition of free market capitalism and competition.
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Hosting for a start. Paying for developers to implement this for you, or taking the time to create it. Then Mike can also do more to attract people to his site.
This is the basis of every post. You can't expect to stay ahead of the competition if you don't do anything to stay ahead - and you don't know Mikes future plans, meaning catching up to where he is now - which may take months - may mean in that time that Mike has added more, meaning you have to continue trying to copy to fully "steal" his site, which may never happen due to the site itself continually moving and adding more value for people who visit.
Then as soon as Mikes site goes down, assuming you're site was successful and Mike stayed stagnant with the site, you would be forced into a bad position - a site with no new content, which then means you'd have to create your own. It's inherently short term, and inherently unstable, assuming success.
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1) You can not just replicate the community, it has to be built and while you may be able to eventually do that, its a way down the road, so you will have to invest too.
2) You will still have developement cost, and if your just scrapping stories, then you open your self to being hurt by it (like if Mike posts that all the stuff on Moore850wasteso2.com suxs and the mod is a left wing lunitic that doesnt believe people have a voice with out his ok..) now your fledgling community is going huh? and your left holding the bag
Another point to be made, you said if some one takes Mikes stuff and charges for it... Well unless you have something super (and i mean mind-blowing) to offer, why would anyone pay for whats free, that gets proven more and more, if 1 and 2 are the same (or in this case 1 is a copy) and 1 charges, and 2 is free... FREE WINS everytime, its common sense..
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Re: Re: What?
The reason people bought them was because they were above what free versions were doing - in other words, they added value to a degree that people would buy them, and were cheaper than more expensive alternatives.
As soon as Linux came onto netbooks for example, they dropped the price of XP dramatically to OEM's so as to fend Linux off - they knew competition was about to squeeze them out from underneath with a model that could provide an operating system for free.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Really...
I believe you mean The only way I can think of to compete with me ... which only shows that you haven't thought very much about it.
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How is this done - exactly ? (emphasis on traffic)
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Ah! So you're just an empty windbag after all.
Mike has said on many occasions that he would not bring a lawsuit should such occur.
Alas, you're too gutless to do anything than talk a big game.
I'll bet you used to brag alot about things you'd never done, too.
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Well, I do, but I'm kind of a jackass that way...
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You asked a hypothetical question, and got a solid factual answer. And then you continued to emphasize your (incorrect) point, as though repeating it louder might somehow make it true. The only way to prove you're correct is to actually put forth some effort to DO that which you've been speaking about. Hell, Mike pretty much gave you explicit permission and dismissed your "legal claims" possibility. So what's stopping you now?
Otherwise... hey, if the shoe fits.
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read like 4 articles on techdirt and you will see mike saying over and over again to go ahead and copy his shit.
so go ahead. do it faggot. we're all waiting.
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you must be new to the internet. bathroom's on the left.
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Re: Re: Re: Really...
You would get neither. First, how do you "scrape traffic"? I'm really confused by that.
And why would we file a lawsuit? We explicitly told you it was fine.
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Re: Really...
Yes.
What if your findings to incorporate back were that "someone else stole all your traffic and now you can't get it back"?
How does one steal traffic?
My guess is the money behind this site would get a little bit more than peeved, and all of a sudden you'd care a whole lot about the protection of copyright.
Too late. We've already put the content in the public domain. There's no copyright to care about.
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I don't see that phrase being used anywhere, but if so, it's unfortunate, but the nature of internet discussions. We believe in free speech here, though, so we expect people to be able to handle things for themselves.
Perhaps in this hypothetical new site you are setting up where you "scrape our traffic" and our content, you can also try censoring the speech of commenters and see how that works. As noted, it would be useful market research for us.
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Re: Really...
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Why not? That's exactly what Nina Paley is talking about. If someone else is making money selling t-shirts, she knows she should sell t-shirts too... and lots of people will choose to buy from her, knowing they're supporting the artist, rather than someone else.
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Re: Re:
Assuming a variance in price, doesn't that rely a hell of a lot on the good nature of the general public? I'm not saying I don't believe that good nature exists, but is it smart to build a business model around it, or even a portion of a business model?
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GPL
There's no restriction on re-selling the software, even if the original is free, or is allowed to be distributed freely.
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Re: GPL
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Re: Re: GPL
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Re: Re: Re: GPL
"Certain musical works included in Sita Sings the Blues, listed below, are subject to restrictive licenses. This is not by my choice; it is the result of retroactive copyright term extensions that I had no say in." So no, she couldn't just take whatever.
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Re: Re: Re: GPL
"the song licensors require additional payments per 5,000 DVDs sold. "
If you are giving away content for free "unlimited", this is where the model breaks down.
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Re: Re: GPL
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Re: Re: GPL
not really. the BSD license has no such requirement to make changes available. it's up there with the GPL in terms of popularity. it's the basis for the licenses for mozilla, apache, eclipse, perl, and a lot of google code.
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Re: Re: GPL
No, it means if you distribute binary software (executable programs), you have to also release the source code. That is true whether you profit or not.
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Re: GPL
What ?
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Re: Re: GPL
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Yay!
I guess my problem with this is that I don't favor copyright abolishment. I think the happy medium provides for a limited copyright that allows for a first to market scenario. If, after that extremely limited copyright time frame has expired, this scenario is repeated then the original author has a greater liklihood of being able to use such free market research, as he or she will have already established their following and loyal fanbase because they were the first to market and had some time to acquire said fanbase.
The overall point remains true, in that authors selling around their works can learn from those who are able to garner sales on the work that the author has not come up with themselves, but without at least SOME time to build up the base, I'm not sure one can appropriately capitalize on the free market research in the way you describe.
I should note that this of course varies with the form of the work, i.e. what makes sense for a blog may not work in identical fashion for a novel.
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Re: Yay!
And it's happening right now, with my new CC-BY-SA short Copying Is Not Theft. Released 2 days ago, freely shared, fanbase (and enemy-base) growing nicely. Everyone knows who the author is BECAUSE it's being freely shared. Copyleft protects authorship better than monopoly can, ensuring any saleable products the author endorses have added value.
In the age of the Internet, the time a work needs to establish authorship is very, very short.
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Re: Re: Yay!
Ah, a valid point, but I'm not sure it is debunks what I said either. I see the harm in copyright in the extreme lengths it lasts and the way it is abused by a few, most often those not creative in their work but rather those that distribute creative work.
I see a 1 year non-transferable copyright law, one that can only be invoked by the original content creator(s) as serving the original purpose of the law, which I believe was to encourage artists to create more. It's still a monopoly, yes, but one that affords artists little hope in living off a single creation....
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Re: Re: Re: Yay!
"It's called First Mover Advantage. No copyright needed."
And I'd argue there's a few other factors besides first mover in there too, such as the social ones that have been discussed here a bit recently.
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Re: Re: Yay!
"A distributor may only use the mark with permission from the creator of the work, and creators may grant blanket permission to use particular versions of the mark to anyone who meets certain conditions. For example, the creator might say that anyone who shares any profits at all with them can use the generic "proceeds support" version of the mark"
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Re: Re: Re: Yay!
No, quite different. One is a gov't granted monopoly, the other is an indication of why a consumer might *want* to support the artist.
Do you not see the difference? One is about the carrot and one is about the stick. They are almost entirely different.
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Re: Re: Re: Yay!
No, it's more like a trademark, which is different. CE simply means that you are offering a work in a manner that the author approves of. It's protecting the 'brand' of the author, not restricting what you can actually do with it.
Perhaps you're confusing it with CC licensing?
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Vocaloid
vocaloid sample:
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/vocaloid-miriam-every-breath-you-take/AFCC925AF6ED12 72DD8FAFCC925AF6ED1272DD8F
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Re: Vocaloid
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Re: Re: Vocaloid
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Culture and agriculture
And the answer is no, it's an ecological network, and the idea is to create a self-perpetuating system where EVERYONE wins. The network is the farm, the farm is that land, et cetera, so the healthier the predators are, the healthier the farm is - and despite losing 20%, they were still making lots of profit, and the land itself benefitted due to the restoration of wetlands that actually filtered the water and reduced overall pollution.
Human culture is very much the same as agriculture. If you create a corporate monoculture in either, the system becomes unhealthy and unsustainable.
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Re: Culture and agriculture
Easy as pie. Sweet sarcastic pie.
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Vocaloid
Vocaloid let it be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W010620_W4Q&feature=related
Would they sue Yamaha for making the software?
Getting on track now.
I don't see the problem with others making money from my work in fact as a programmer I saw many people openning ubuntu services and signing up to tech support so when they don't know what to do they message the other boys to get some answers is like a cascade business.
And it would work with music too, nobody can copy the artist so some that are sucessuful may contact the artist to go play, or make exclusive material.
The same thing may happen with blogs were the copied blog is the source of the original content others may come to talk and see if they can do other things.
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Qualify this one as "attempting to find a silver lining in a lead cloud"
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Re:
An hour later, one masterwork.
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Perfection.
Is like making windows the margin for error is in millimeters, then you start producing something that needs microns as a margin error, then you start creating things in nanometers and it gets expensive from there on.
In business is the same thing, there is the profits that are easy to come by, then you try to extract more profits from the market and it starts to get more difficult.
Trying to monetize every single instance of anything will prove costly specially when your customers are not happy with you.
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Are these figures accurate? That would put Ms. Paley out $235,000 thus far...
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but but but...
1. they'll copy your content covertly
2. they'll remove your name from it
3. they'll not report anything back to you
If you're a small business then you're business model will unexplainably start failing and you'll have to use your days trying to work out why.
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Re: but but but...
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Re: but but but...
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Is It Really Such A Problem If People Sell Your Works?
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Re: Is It Really Such A Problem If People Sell Your Works?
Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have a test before you can comment. Can you understand the difference between stealing something (taking it away so I don't have it) and copying something (making one more of something). If not, perhaps you shouldn't be able to comment. On this site at least.
Feel free to copy on moore850's site, with all of the "scraped traffic."
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Re: Re: Is It Really Such A Problem If People Sell Your Works?
What could possibly go wrong?
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Yes, we have to endure people who cannot parse simple explanations. It's what you call a trade-off.
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Wait? Slashdot "poached" from another tech site? Was it also called Slashdot?
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Um. Have you never heard of the Slashdot Effect? We love it when Slashdot links to us, because it drives a ton of traffic.
No offense, man, but you aren't making any sense in this thread.
I would be willing to bet that every single techdirt reader at one time was a Slashdot reader. If all of these stories were available there, via a screen scraper within milliseconds of their posting on here, why would anyone still come here for that content?
Man. If /. wanted to distribute all of our content that would be FANTASTIC. It would be a huge boost for our business model, because the more people who see our content, the more money we make from our actual business. That would be great.
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You brought up two separate issues, so let's keep them straight.
1. You claimed -- falsely -- that no one clicks on /. links. The explanation of the /. effect was to prove you wrong.
2. Separately, you asked what would happen if they scraped all our content. That's different, and I still explained why that would be cool, and it's NOT because of the traffic, but because it would get our content and our views in front of a much larger audience. That would be HUGE for our business. That has nothing to do with the /. effect. Though, separately, I will note that we do tend to link back to older Techdirt posts as well, so there would probably be some residual linking -- but even without that, it doesn't matter. Our business model isn't based on traffic.
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That's all you had to say, "you win".
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You are still arguing two separate things. If they're clicking on links, then they're going to our content with our name on it. That's good.
If they don't put our name on our content, then we would discuss that publicly, and it would get attention (a la the Google discussion). Again, good for us.
Man. I really hope someone big does that. It would be great to get that kind of attention.
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Is It Really Such A Problem If People Sell Your Works?
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to be honest
i hope that made sense... hmmm...
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The strength of this site is the community, not your content, which is why you are OK with anyone copying it. Naturally anyone who spots this content elsewhere could find their way to the source and decide to stay, after seeing the community.
But if I find content on Youtube, why would I try and go to the source? It's the content I'm interested, and as long as Youtube offers the most convenient option, I'm gonna stick with it.
No wonder content companies are pissed off at someone else making money off their content, because their content isn't worthless (unlike Techdirt's)...it's what people want. Youtube is getting traffic and making money not from their great community or the quality of discussion (mostly retarded), but the quality and variety of content that is available (much of it unauthorized).
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Well, first, I agree that the community is the strength, but it's the combination of the content and the community that makes it work.
But if I find content on Youtube, why would I try and go to the source? It's the content I'm interested, and as long as Youtube offers the most convenient option, I'm gonna stick with it.
I'm not sure what point that makes. As one of my other articles discussed today, this is a good thing. You get to use YouTube to your advantage, because they're providing free bandwidth, software and hosting. Great. So if you created the video, you can still take advantage of it, even though it's on another site.
That's the point I was making.
No wonder content companies are pissed off at someone else making money off their content, because their content isn't worthless (unlike Techdirt's)
Oh, I see. You weren't making a serious point. You just wanted to toss out insults.
If their content is valuable, then they should build a community around it, just like we did. IF they don't, I can't see how they have anyone to blame but themselves.
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1. Take all your public domain content.
2. Take your name and your site links off of all of it.
3. Rebrand it with "google" links and authors.
4. De-list your site from google's search results, replacing your links with links to their version of your stuff.
You really don't see how you need to at least have an attribution license for you to be able to get any credit/income whatsoever from your works?
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Dude. No, we don't need a CC attribution license. We DO NOT have such a license. The content is public domain. Anyone can use it. However they want. With or without attribution. We don't care. In fact, we were among those who complained that the CC attribution license was too restrictive, helped leading to them releasing the CC-0 license, which does not require attribution.
And, please, sir, you do not get to tell me what I "need."
1. Take all your public domain content.
2. Take your name and your site links off of all of it.
3. Rebrand it with "google" links and authors.
4. De-list your site from google's search results, replacing your links with links to their version of your stuff.
Yes. They could do that. Would they? No. If they did, can you imagine the very first thing we would do? We would point this out, and alert the press. The press would report on it, and talk about how evil Google is, and we would get a TON of TRAFFIC and FREE PUBLICITY from folks coming to check out what Google had done and who they had copied.
Huge win.
For us.
Cool. I seriously hope it happens. Honestly, I can't think of a situation that would help us more.
You really don't see how you need to at least have an attribution license for you to be able to get any credit/income whatsoever from your works?
Nope. No need at all. As I explained above. There are perfectly good ways to deal with the issue without a restrictive license.
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Heh. The press would love a story that makes Google look "evil." Because MOST PEOPLE (apparently not you) have a sense of common decency and pretending someone else's content is your own -- even if it's public domain -- is not considered to be socially acceptable.
So, yes, the press would eat that story up in a second.
I don't know why you are acting this way on this story. You seem to have a near total blind spot for the value of free content.
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Sure there's a difference, but there's a massive SOCIAL PUNISHMENT for the latter. Why do you think that backlash doesn't occur?
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Sure there would be backlash. They would have stripped our name off of it and (in your scenario) removed us from the Google index. You don't think that would be a huge story?
Look, even if the content is public domain, as it is, it's still *socially* the norm to properly credit it. We work on that assumption that most people would do so. And if they don't, we highlight that they're socially deviant. And that's a news story. A big one.
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Techdirt spin fails again
Is this really the kind of person anyone should be taking business advice from?
Precisely.
Trying to compare blog entries (of all things) to everything else under the sun (including hugely more expensive and time consuming endeavors) is absurd. Here we have Mike's usual, timeworn tactic of trying to extrapolate a micro into a macro without any evidence to actually make the leap.
Yes, a movie that lost it's economic ass in a failed attempt to prove your gospel right.
No. In other words, it verified his points already.
AKA give it away and pray (that they buy it from the originator)
While it might be true that you "benefited" more with copyleft distribution than you would have with a more typical, limited distribution deal, the fact is, you still lost a great deal of money. As such, the whole thing makes for a rather miserable copyleft "success story" despite your own and Techdirt's many efforts to spin it that way.
Trademark law and copyright law have more in common than they have apart. Both are in the realm of intellectual property. Circumvention of either is referred to by lawyers as "infringement". Both have "fair use" exceptions. Both are a set of proprietary, exclusionary rights. Both can easily be considered government granted monopolies. The trademark Coke-Cola has over its select images, advertising, packaging and brand names that cover its large stable of products is NO LESS MONOPOLISTIC than what a studio has with its films.
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Re: Techdirt spin fails again
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Re: Techdirt spin fails again
But, as per usual, he gets the facts a bit mixed up, which is unfortunate -- but not surprising.
This entire post is based upon the ramblings of a woman who went full steam ahead putting Mike's theories to the test only to end up LOSING OVER TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS on her film.
Uh, no. You did *read* the post, didn't you? It doesn't look that way. The discussion wasn't about making money on her film, it was looking at whether or not it's a bad thing if others make money off your work. And her argument -- made sensibly and on point, unlike yours -- is that it's not so bad.
But you didn't address that argument at all. Instead, you focus on something different, without discussing the details of what actually happened.
Is this really the kind of person anyone should be taking business advice from?
Hmm. Let's see. Universal Pictures made "Land of the Lost" for $100 million. It grossed about $50 million. So, by your definition, clearly, we shouldn't listen to anyone associated with Universal Pictures on the movie industry business.
Weren't you the one complaining about taking micro examples and assuming macro findings? And yet you do that with Ms. Paley?
Funny. Last time we had a discussion I pointed out filmmakers who had made a ton of money by embracing these concepts. And what happened to Mr.MPAA here? He disappeared. But next time he stopped by he cursed a lot more. Funny.
Trying to compare blog entries (of all things) to everything else under the sun (including hugely more expensive and time consuming endeavors) is absurd. Here we have Mike's usual, timeworn tactic of trying to extrapolate a micro into a macro without any evidence to actually make the leap.
I never said blog entries were the same as everything under the sun. Reading comprehension problem there?
I'm not sure how you could read that into what I've written. Very odd.
Yes, a movie that lost it's economic ass in a failed attempt to prove your gospel right.
Again, we weren't discussing the success of the movie overall. Reading comprehension failures don't make you look smart. It makes you look like you're grasping for straws.
In the meantime, it's good to know that you think Universal Pictures shouldn't be allowed to comment on movie business models. I'll be sure to remind you of that in the future.
You don't happen to work for Universal, do you?
AKA give it away and pray (that they buy it from the originator)
Uh. You do know that we've explained why "give it away and pray" is a bad business model. Not sure why you would then purposely misread what we write to suggest we support it. Guess when you have no real argument flat out lying is the next step.
FiF, I recognize that you are troubled by the fact that your bosses seem to not understand basic economics, but I've already offered to give you a good deal on an economics lesson. I'm serious about this. Just give us a call and we'll give you a good discount.
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Thank you for proving the point. You can lose money on one aspect of you business, and then make it up elsewhere. Which is what Nina is doing.
On top of that, given how much publicity she's been getting, guess how much easier it will be her to make money on her next film?
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*Sigh*. Devin. She's MAKING MONEY. A lot of money. A lot more than most indie movies. Pay attention.
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Fees required for commercial use of Free works?
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