Sometimes Protecting Free Speech Means Protecting Speech You Don't Like
from the even-repugnant-speech dept
I'm a big fan of Vivek Wadhwa, who I think has done some excellent research showing the importance of skilled immigration and how it helps the US economy and helps expand jobs, rather than take them away. I've also been an outspoken supporter of encouraging greater skilled worker immigration into the US, as I believe it's much better to have those individuals working in the US, for US companies, rather than working at home against US companies. I've been regularly yelled at and attacked for these views, often by a group of folks who all are on a particular mailing list of anti-immigration supporters that often runs into extremely racist territory. The people on that list seem to be under the belief that the world owes them high paying jobs, and they do not need to keep up on new technologies nor compete in the global marketplace. Some of those folks have set up a series of rather horrific websites that are blatantly racist, economically illiterate and at times disturbing, in their attacks on skilled immigration, specifically from India.However, last month, when some of those sites were taken down by a court order, we were among the first to suggest this was a major overstep by the court. The lawsuit was about these sites posting a work agreement from a company that employs many H-1B visa recipients, suggesting that the company abuses the visa system. I'm all for exposing abuses of the system, because I believe that a skilled immigration program works better without such abuses. Oddly, the company, Apex, accused the sites of both libel and copyright infringement over the posting of the documents. If it were libel, it would mean the postings were not accurate. If it were copyright infringement, then that means Apex is admitting the contents were covered by copyright (meaning, they were accurate).
But rather than just demand the takedown of the specific content in question, the judge ordered the sites taken down completely, and even a Facebook group closed. That's way over the line and goes well beyond what the lawsuit was about. It was great to see the EFF take up the case, but it's a shame to see others miss the bigger picture.Esahc writes in to point out that Vivek Wadhwa has penned a column for TechCrunch blasting the EFF for defending these sites. I can understand why Wadhwa is upset about the sites. The sites are undoubtedly racist and despicable. They are also ignorant and economically illiterate. Some of the posts are, clearly, hate speech, and inciting violence against certain individuals.
If the lawsuit filed by Apex was about that, then he might have a point. But it was not. The lawsuit targeted a specific piece of information on three sites, and because of that, the court shut down all three sites, and related Facebook pages. It's an overreach. Yes, the sites are dreadful, but the EFF is absolutely right to try to prevent such a judicial overreach. One of the reasons so many immigrants want to come to the US and want to work here is because of our respect for free speech principles and not condoning overly broad censorship, even of speech that we find repugnant. In the past, I've stepped forward and supported the free speech rights of even those who have attacked me the most on certain topics, when they were also attacked. I think that Wadhwa is going too far in attacking the EFF in this case. I certainly don't agree with the EFF on everything it does -- but in this case, it has made the right decision. The anti-immigration websites are disgusting, vile, racist and ridiculous -- but that doesn't mean we should allow a court to shut them down completely over a single complaint over some specific information.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: free speech, immigration, takedowns
Companies: apex
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
I also wouldn't be surprised if there turned out to be more to this than just the Apex document; I wouldn't be hugely surprised to learn that evidence of other offences came out in court, possibly including criminal ones.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
This goes hand in hand with cloud privacy rights...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: This goes hand in hand with cloud privacy rights...
From memory because i think this window might crash if i look it up and I'm lazy - "The powers not delegated to the united states by the constitution, nor prohibited to the states thereby, are reserved to the states respectively or to the people."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
That is the point really, popular speech doesn't need protecting, it is the unpopular which we need to protect. Especially because you never know when your words might become unpopluar.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
Then they came for the people who talk about their bowel movements and I did not speak out—because I was not a bowel movement speaker
Then they came for the shoe fetishists and I did not speak out—because I was not a shoe fetishist
Then they came for me—and the EFF had been disbanded for trying to help the racists.
The EFF has it right here. If I recall the post you're talking about on TechCrunch, the writer said that the EFF had degenerated into an organization that supported copyright infringers and raporists or something to that effect. I haven't liked them since Robin decided he wants Twitter to censor everything he doesn't agree with so I can't say that particular article surprised me. The whole staff over there has slowly turned into a bunch of douchebags who can't see further than their own little bubble.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
> also happened to be on those sites.
Even if it did have something to do with the hate speech, that would still be a 1st Amendment violation. Hate speech is protected speech in America, per the Supreme Court (American Nazi Party vs. City of Skokie, Illinois). I know that various European countries have made it a crime to offend someone, but thank god we still have some freedom left here in the USA.
Mike is right, the sites in question may be hateful, but it's a clear violation of the 1st Amendment for this judge to have censored them completely and I expect he'll be vigorously overturned by the appellate court.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
> threats to kill (something that can put you in
> jail here in Britain) was covered by the 1st
> Amendment.
Terroristic threats are not hate speech under American law. Hate speech is all the stuff that "offends" people. Threats are a different category altogether, however even our threat statutes require much more from the government in terms of elements and proof than in a typical European jurisdiction.
> And I haven't seen any court papers either, so
> for all I know the sites have been ordered to
> turn their hardware over to the FBI whilst they
> or some of their users are investigated for
> conspiracy to commit murder.
This is a copyright/libel proceeding. A *civil* case. Criminal offenses like conspiracy or terroristic threats aren't even within the jurisdiction of a judge presiding over a copyright case. If the government wants to seize the servers and take down the web sites because of suspected criminal violations, then the U.S. Attorney would have to bring a SEPARATE criminal case against the site operators, then obtain an indictment and a subsequent order of seizure. A judge can't (on his own volition) all of a sudden start bootstrapping criminal sanctions into a civil suit brought by a corporate plaintiff.
One doesn't need to see "court papers" to know that.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Link to case?
I dare not make a comment without seeing the actual decision.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Link to case?
Apex Middlesex County NJ Superior Court Judge James Hurley
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
But if that's the best you can do in America, then you must be quite weak.
Instead, if you/we can somehow muster the productive power of a better education, better access to capital, better infrastructure, and better rule of law to generate more output per capita...well, then we might end up better off than a 3rd world nation.
We start the "race" with a significant head start. If you still can't win the race, that's on you.
One EARNS more by producing more. Let the 3rd worlders sell us their goods and climb up into the modern world, while we try to be productive ourselves, instead of whining about the loss of an easy ride.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Name the new industry that India has created and given to American workers on a silver platter for free without Americans having to lift a finger to enjoy it.
Libs like you will bend and twist any argument to fit your pro-open borders globalization agenda even when all evidence indicates that you are wrong. What matters most to libs is not the truth, not facts, but being right.
Face it, your multicultural globalization experiment is an EPIC FAIL and you can't hide it any longer.
10 years ago, with mostly American workers the U.S. economy was booming. What happened to all those productive American workers? Were they all 55 years old at that time and have now retired? Did they all get collective amnesia and forget how to do their jobs? No, they are being kept out of the workforce by the very foregin labor we are bringing in. 3rd world labor has been a a total disaster for America. It's time to deport them all now as agree in 1998 when they began coming in.
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were both college dropouts. No fancy education there but lots of creativity and passion for products - two things both India and China lack.
The education argument is a canard used by the left to make up an excuse as to why Americans are not good enough for America's jobs. America's workers are the best in the world as we proved in the 90s. You're just angry that your personal ideology of communism failed as we are now seeing on the world economic stage called globalization.
America has the highest per capita GDP of any country in the world except Luxembourg. We don't need more productivity - we need Americans hold the jobs which they aren't right now. The replacement of millions of Americans in jobs with 3rd world labor is the cause of the economic collapse. Replace workers ranked #1 in produvtivity with those ranked 54th and you're likely to see an economic decline. If America has a productivity problem, it's due to 3rd world workers working in America and not being as productive as Americans are.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
The only thing that got the U.S. the sense of growth was internal expending and not really creation of wealth.
- Agriculture in U.S. soil would be impossible without subsidies as south american, african and asian countries would decimete then on prices if it was open. But food nobody wants to be dependent on others do they now? Even if america have the best technology it couldn't beat people in the pre historic age of technological evolution.
- In electronics america was beaten by Asia a long time ago there is no TV sets made on the U.S. by an american company.
- Health care is seeing something equal as thousands of people discovered Health Turism on which they go to south american, asian, central american and asian countries to be treated by a fraction of the cost with top notch facilities with translators and other perks. Again money is going no where into the U.S. economy here this is truly lost revenue.
- Manufacturing jobs have gone elsewhere.
- Financial trust have been compromised.
- America is no longer the center of innovation Europe and Asia are slowly occupying that spot go to CES.
If americans are the best why are they not excelling in all those fields?
Why others can do the same job, for less? and even better?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
TVs were invented in America long before Japan ever made them. 25 years ago all PCs were made in the USA. You can claim asia is beating US but how? By stealing aamerican industries? I can claim to be a winner too if I rob a bank and then say I am "successful". Can you name one new invention or thing that originated in Asia at CES - no, you can't they are all copies of things first invented and produced by Americans.
It must be pretty hard to sleep at night if you're asian and know you're "winnning" only by robbing ither countries. Do you think that makes the world respect you? You are a laughingstock bscause the only way you can be successful is to be a parasite on someone else.
US is still the world's largest manufacturer, despite what you have heard about china. Google it. Asians are all fraud, thieves, and hypers. Nothing the world enjoys was inventrd by asians.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
Good, because that's not what I said at all, but you just didn't understand. I said that US workers ARE far more productive, because we can muster "the productive power of a better education, better access to capital, better infrastructure, and better rule of law to generate more output per capita". It's English, use it.
"Libs like you"
Whoa, there!! I'm a lib because I believe in a free market, unencumbered by a meddling government? Or is it because I believe in fierce competition, and that the most productive should earn accordingly? Help me out and tell me how that's liberal. Dude, how can you say what's right or wrong...you can't even tell a right wing position from a left winger.
"Replace workers ranked #1 in productivity with those ranked 54th"
Productivity means a certain amount of output for a certain amount of input (pay). No company would ever choose to replace top productive staff with anything less. In cases where US workers are the most productive, they keep their jobs. The challenge for Americans is not to bitch to your government to protect you, it's to out-compete the foreign workers.
Let me shift the perspectives so correct some of your comprehension gaffes about who is the commie: Communists like YOU want the government to protect citizens with regulations and market control. You want DC to interfere with the free market on citizen's behalf, and assure comrades an income, whether they work harder than others or not. Capitalists like me think that those who are most productive, and compete successfully should be the biggest winners, wherever they are.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Got news for you bud - there are already laws on the books protecting American workers. Have been for decades - Title 8, Section 1182 - Inadmissible aliens. Every ither country has laws to protect its workers - oh wait, those countries are booming. Free trwde has long been a communist goal. Free trade as in redistributing the wealth of productive countries to the unproductive ones. From each according to his abilities to each according to his need. Can you name for us the specific guest worker programs that allow a million US citizens to take jobs every single year in India or China?
Americans are not being allowed to compete - we're being kept out of the workforce by angry, jealous asians who can't possibly beat us if we are working alongside them. Their only hope of competing with us? Keep us out of the competition!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Those who are super brillaint and super product deserve super rewards, not unemployment. This is communism we are witnesssing.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
"If you're an American and a big fan of the H-1B visa, either you are hopelessly ignorant or on the payroll of the cheap labor lobby."
Several of my coworkers are working here legally with an h-1B, yet are paid as much or more than I. What exactly am I ignorant of? They have families in the U.S., spend their money on American products, and are happy to be employed and hoping to stay.
I do not fear my coworker, employee or employer - no matter their nationality, race, or heritage. The biggest impediment to my success is the limit of my own ability. This is the way I want it to stay and without truly free speech -popular, unpopular, right, wrong, insulting, or praising - I don't think my life can continue along that path.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
gud
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
But in all fairness to Mike, I also think that there is a major disconnect between the skills companies want and what our colleges teach, hence some need for the H-1B. Take a look at a typical technical 4 year curriculum and a job posting on a job board. It's a total disconnect. The colleges are making us pay for way too much bullsh*t companies don't need.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
No. Job growth can also be a result of a company's success.
The fundamental failure to your logic is that you imply that, short of new businesses, the job market is a zero sum game. It's not.
If a company does well, it's more likely to hire people, purchase services and goods, in turn causing those goods and services providers to require more employees.
A rising tide floats all boats.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
True, but that is by no means an indication that those displaced by the H1-B program are part of that growth.
Most likely, the displaced workers will be rehired somewhere else, most likely with a reduction in pay starting at a new company. For the worker, that's not growth. That's the disconnect between Mike and those who disagree.
Mike's argument seems to be if it's good for business growth, and betterment of the situation for individuals will follow. Corporate America has been using that argument in government lobbying for years. Reagan called it "the trickle down theory". IMHO, it doesn't work well. Corporate rewards aren't put into hiring of staff as a priority, generally speaking. We're certainly not seeing any growth of that kind right now.
That's why I think Mike's argument hits a snag. It doesn't factor in corporate greed. Mike has already shown corporate greed to be one of the most hindering forces in the economic system {entertainment industry, copyrights, patients, banking....}. Yet for this one issue, I can't see where he factors that in at all. I really hate to say this, but he seems to be ignoring it as a factor in order to prove a point. (I love what you write Mike, I'm assuming I just missed something you said somewhere.)
Or perhaps Americans as a whole have been WAY over paid for the last 20 plus years, and this is a natural adjustment. I could buy that.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
The H-1B lets in immigrants with skills that are demonstrably lacking in the US. The effect is to depress wages for that one job category, which leads to reduced investment in that area - ie, H-1B visas perpetuate H-1B visas. But that is only bad if you don't like interesting people from other cultures increasing US diversity.
As to whether it actually displaces US workers... not much, if at all. Outsourcing is much more likely to do that. Again, the reason is because the H-1B exists to decrease labor monopolies in key job descriptions. But You can outsource anything, whether or not there is a strong labor market in that job class in the US. Put differently, the point of H-1B is that every US citizen that can do the job and wants to will be employed first, and only then will we invite outsiders. Contrast that with non-immigrant work placement, where the job leaves the country regardless of whether there is a citizen who can and would like to do it.
Of course, one could do worse than to eliminate minimum wage, if one's primary interest were in encouraging employment.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Apple CLOSED its R&D center in India in 2006 and hires mostly American developers. 100% of Apple software is made in U.S. using 90% American labor. Did I mention Apple is booming?
Why did GM which was booming in 2006 go bankrupt a mere 3 years after outsourcing to Wipro.
Why did Lehman go under a year after buying Wipro's flawed Spectramind software.
Why did Dell, Delta, and United all bring their call centers back to the U.S. last year. Apparently Indians can't even answer phones, let alone write code.
Why did AIG go under after outsourcing to Accenture and Wipro?
Why did Quark almost go out of business after making an Indian conman (Alukah Kamar) CEO?
Why did Bell Labs, birthplace of the transistor, UNIX, and C close its doors 3 years after an Indian national named Arun Netravalli gut the U.S. workforce there and replace them with 100% Indians.
Why did ComAir's 100% Indian IT department cause the 12/25/05 nationwide airport shutdown in America because they used a short int for a count when they should have used a long int?
Why did HCL have to rewrite the ILS and collision detection software for Boeing's 787 THREE TIMES before it worked, causing delays and penalties for Boeing?
Why can't India produce its own operating system?
Why is there no Adobe or Microsoft of India.
Name one Indian software product that anyone uses (that works).
America doesn't have the expertise? No one believes that tired old argument anymore. Rather it is the Induvasion for the past decade that has kept skilled Americans out of the U.S. workforce - which is exactly why the U.S. economy is failing. These people are not perorming as promised. Time to deport them all.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
1998 == American workers and booming econ
2008 == A decade of millions of foreign workers and a failed economy
Duh. Connect the dots.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
in closing: people are splitting hairs. they cant have it both ways, so people as a whole need to decide if they want free speech or censored speech. i personally go for free no matter the consequences
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Quote from the Movie American President...
Free speech isn't just for you, it's for everyone... otherwise, it's not free.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Censorship does not help to address ignorance
It is dumbfounding that people who hold themselves to be intelligent can take a few cases where some company has abused the system and lay the blame on the exploited immigrants rather than those that exploit them. Lowering the debate to racial vilification is deplorable.
But, much as I deplore the hateful views Vivek opposes, much as I oppose those views he wants to suppress, you cannot address ignorance with censorship.
The US owes its prosperity to migrants. Migrants built the nation, migration provided the stimulus that fueled its growth throughout the 20th century and migration will ensure its future. No nation that has closed its borders has prospered.
Refusing to engage and correct bad ideas is no way to address them
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance
But there is no need to villify someone on the basis of race, rather than conduct or whatever socially-acceptable metric is being used at the moment. Or do you disagree?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance
> of "protected classes" in the U.S.
Ummm... no it doesn't. In fact, Congress has created (and the Supreme Court has upheld) the creation of various protected classes regarding civil rights laws.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance
No one cares if you are from a higher socioeconomic group in your country - you are a temporary guest worker. Expect the same.
Your frustration and disrespect and real and understandable.
As an unemployed and educated American tech worker, I have to deal with it every day, I get the honor of being disrespected by unemployment, government agencies, banks. Why, because I'm unemployed and replaced by guest workers.
Despite a tireless job search without response, I also have the pleasure of dealing with disrespectful workers at the bank who insult me and refuse to explore a mortgage refinance for the home that I could comfortably afford for a decade. Why, I'm unemployed, ineligible for Making Home Affordable because I'm unemployed, and treated like pond scum - why because I was laid off and replaced by temporary visa workers from other countries.
And, I am luckier than most of the laid off Americans replaced by guest workers I know. I count my blessings that I am not yet homeless and have not yet had to deal with food stamps.
Fact, American workers replaced by guest workers have lost their jobs, homes, life savings, life insurance, and sadly, many have lost their lives.
Welcome to the club. Deal with it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance
So why is that you don't look at the causes of problem?
Why is that is more attractive to hire illegals? or bring in other workers from other places?
Correct those and things will stabilize don't and no matter what laws are passed those jobs will be gone.
Is not the workers is the business environment which is now global and not only "domestic" if you fail to see the global situation then you will fail to see a solution that works.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance
heyo f**l where does it mention competition in this article. It's all about freedom of speech, we'll hard concept to understand if you don't have it in your country.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance
Is really simple to understand or isn't?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
A lot of assumptions here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: A lot of assumptions here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
For one employers don't hire them because they complain to much, ask for higher salaries and will abandon the job after weeks in a higher rate then those other(immigrants) workers that is why there is a market for them. Is competition really.
For the skilled workers well those can and do create a lot of jobs, one of the Google founders is not an American is it? One of NASA's contractors is an ex-astronaut(non american) that build a firm to develop a new propulsion system and is locate outside the U.S. but employs Americans.
With the economy on the toilet one could argue that now is the time to treat others well because it will be the parameter used to treat Americans on those countries. accountants, international lawyers, architects, engineers will all find jobs in Asia and other places.
Doubt here look at it.
One note how is that immigrants buy houses with what they make and Americans can't buy those without higher salaries?
Americans apparently no longer have the will to endure the sacrifices needed to compete and be the best they can.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
Can you tell us when that new NASA propulsion system created by a foreigner will be put into production, or is it just another pipe dream with American $ being thrown down some rathole so its foreign workers can get paychecks and send all the $ home to their families as fast as they can?
Come on stop the grandiose lies. These people come here, get funded by us and send the $ home as fast as they can whist producing very little.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: A lot of assumptions here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
But this is trolling. Whether the hate-mongers were right or not is not the point. The only question is whether a Court was right (both morally and legally) in enjoining speech unrelated to the only issue before it (libelous or infringing speech). The answer to _that_ one is clear, assuming Mike has correctly represented facts and holding.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
25 years of Reagan's protectionism created the booms in the 80s and 90s.
What do we have today?
A decade of free trade and globalization and the economy is a disatser.
Protectionsim is best for America. We don't need the world. They need us.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. A steady stream of faking unskilled workers masquerading as skilled workers who come to America for free Amercian training and free jobs created by others can only harm America even more.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
Brining 3rd world immigrants from barbaric countries is not the same as brining people from civilized countries. Besides, every immigration wave to the U.S. since 1900 has resulted in recession.
YOU are not the same as US. India did nothing to help America for the 1st 500 years. Now that Americans have built the envy of the world and India is unable to make its own country work, NOW after 500 years all of a sudden they all want in. And if the past decade is any indication, they are a destructive force, not a building force. Common sense says to stop doing what isn't working and Asian immigration isn't working for the U.S.
Comparing European countries to India's cesspool is ridiculous. 600,000,000 people defecate in the open in India every day. 40% of all Indian households don't even have toilets or running water. Same as Europe? Keep dreaming. We are civilized, you are not. And that is why you don't deserve America. You have failed to perform as advertised and that means you should be fired (and deported) immediately.
European ancestors came to America and CREATED a better life. Asian immigrants of today come to America LOOKING for a better life. In other words, living off the success and work of Americans as if Asians had created it. Get real! You people destroy every economy you go to. U.S., UK, Australia, even Dubai. All dead, destroyed, debt-ridden economies after 10 years of mass Induvasion.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
"America was *** built by Americans descended from European immigrants ***"
So, if those European immigrants weren't allowed into America back then, YOU wouldn't be here, you bigoted jackass! See the irony in your post, you ignorant bigot? What if the Native Americans back then had decided to close their borders? Don't even TRY telling me European immigrants "civilized" the Native Americans, as I'm sure you are you are about to say, you inbred redneck. NO, the Native Americans DID NOT invite the Europeans to take over their land, and kill millions of their people by passing around blankets laced with the small-pox virus. In fact, they despised them (some still do) for destroying and decimating their ancient cultures and languages by genocide. Unfortunately for you, you were born a few years too late to be having a slave-driver mentality like yours. This is isn't Nazi Germany, nor is it America in the 1700's where you could go around owning slaves. This is America of today, and everybody is equal here, regardless of race, ethnicity, color, creed, gender, religion and sexual orientation, which is what makes this country so great. If you don't like it here, GET THE F*CK OUT OF MY COUNTRY!! You spoil the name of decent Americans like us, and you have NO place in our great country and society.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
My great grandfather didn't come here with the view to work here for 6 years, suck $100K out of the country, send it all home where it is worth much more due to the exchange rate, and strip-mine the US economy. No, he came here with the view to work hard, become American, and stay here. Today's immigrants from the 3rd world are nothing like immigrants of the past.
Native Americans didn't spdeserve America because they were bloodthirsty savages sitting around inmmud huts smoking dope and slaugtering eqch other in tribal wars. You can hardly compare that with European civilizaition. They go conquered because they were savages.
Cow-worshippers and piss-drinkers do not deserve America either.
We close our borders to barbarians and conmen, all others are welcome. Civilization is worth preserving and importing barbarians is not the way to do it, regardless of how they dress and how many fake degrees they claim.
I don't think I could have worked at Apple Sony and have written 20 successful commercial software products if I was an "inbred redneck". How many software products have you written? Are you even American?
Title 8, Section 1182 - INADMISSIBLE ALIENS says all jobs must go to US citizens first. Now go home TEMPORARY GUEST WORKER - you've been here a decade longer than you promised originally and you are an inadmissible alien.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
I don't Even know where to Start on this one....
So Much Stupid so little time.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
Besides, 84% of the current US population was born here. Do you expect us to believe the 16% immigrants are keeping the place going while the other 84% sits around doing nothing? LOL. CA is going broke because of all the lazy 3rd world wealth-siphoners in that state. 13 of mass immigration has helped te US economy... It's a disaster now.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
...since around the first world war. Before that, labor was completely mobile, unencumbered by meddling governments. Human mobility was never so regulated as it is today.
Prior to the world wars, people crossed borders with no papers, passports didn't yet exist, and the world prospered and our economy grew. We told Europeans to check-in on Ellis Island...and that's about it.
Do you support the free market? Most right-wingers and anti H1-B people SAY they do (when it suits them). But work visas, by their very existence, are anti-free market. And restricting work visas is even more anti-free market. Restrictions prevent labor from moving to places with relatively more work. So, if you're anti migrant worker, you MUST also admit to being anti-free market.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
Japan does today have very very strict laws on foreign workers. In fact, they are deporting all foreign workers as we speak. Google "Born in Japan, Ordered Out" and "Japan deports foreign workers".
Stop your propaganda. UK and Europe also have native-first laws. Under the EU charter it is illegal to bring in foreign workers unless you've first conducted a search for a qualified workers in every one of the member EU countries and certify you can't find one.
So, your propaganda doesn't quite hold water. Even UK is now deporting foreign workers and denying permanent residency to guest workers (search TOI for articles).
Unfortunatley the world and Americans always have to learn the hard way. We will have to have another world war before people like you wake up to the reality that free trade causes war.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
Note that above I argued not that the EU doesn't place restrictions on foreign workers, but that this has only developed since the first world war. For most of history, human mobility hadn't been encumbered by government bureaucracy. Labor moved to where it could be more productive.
You accuse my comment of propaganda twice. I'm not sure WTF you're talking about. My three paragraphs are historically factual statements, and an economic statement in the third. Which of them is propaganda? Do you know what the word means?
Lastly, the Treaty of Versailles is largely understood to have set the environment that allowed for the rise of the Nazis. It was this punitive Treaty set by the WWI allies, that allowed so much anger in Germany. Unfair treatment of other countries IS a potential cause of war. Free trade usually has the opposite effect.
You seem to think Appeasement a la Neville Chamberlain was the cause of the war. That's dumb. By the time of Chamberlain's Appeasement, the stage for WWII was already set. His reaction was lame, but it didn't cause the war, it just delayed it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
http://www.historyonthenet.com/WW2/causes.htm#Failure_of_Appeasement
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
If you think it's a good idea to have another world war just so we can say we are playing nice and arent racist, you are delusional. We closed up after WW2 precisely because trading with enemies caused it. If you the unimagineable horror of WW3 is worth playing these games, then you neither love your country, nor other people. You are sick. This is worldwide war and destruction we are playing around with here. I hope you're the first to get drafted.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
...
Aggressive enforcement of Japanese immigration laws has increased in recent years as the country's economy has floundered and the need for cheap foreign labor has fallen.
Nationality in Japan is based on blood and parentage, not place of birth. This island nation was closed to the outside world until the 1850s, when U.S. warships forced it to open up to trade. Wariness of foreigners remains a potent political force, one that politicians dare not ignore, especially when the economy is weak.
As a result, the number of illegal immigrants has been slashed, often by deportation, from 300,000 in 1995 to just 130,000, a minuscule number in comparison to other rich countries. The United States, whose population is 2 1/2 times that of Japan's, has about 90 times as many illegal immigrants (11.6 million)
...
Among highly developed countries, Japan also ranks near the bottom in the percentage of legal foreign residents. Just 1.7 percent are foreign or foreign-born, compared with about 12 percent in the United States.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
no one that is not on the board of directors or a major stock holder has the right to tell any business how to manage its work force. except of course when doing so is illegal such as in the case of hiring illegal immigrants or in cases where the hiring of such a workforce presents a destabilizing force on our economy such as the case for importing 'skilled workers' and outsourcing a large percentage of a corporations jobs to overseas markets.
i could not care less where someone was born or what their genetic makeup is when it comes to getting a job... all i care about is that you are able to get the job done and thats it. its not just about genetics and racism as you would like to say it is. these policies of shipping off jobs to foreign countries in combination with importing workers that are not citizens creates a destabilizing force on the economy to begin with and combining it with huge unemployment numbers only serves to compound the problem.
the issue here is not race at all.
its economic survival of our sovereign nation and its being put at very real risk here. we are headed towards being a nation of nothing but inherited money controlled by complete idiots who have never had to work a day in their life at one end and construction workers burger flippers and other such menial jobs that simply can not be outsourced overseas at the other.
i dont know about you, but living in a country where the only true domestic skilled labor is working for the government at various city county state and federal levels because there simply are no longer any such jobs in the private sector scares the holy hell out of me...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
But if any American tries to point out the massive fraud and corruption Indians in the U.S. are commiting, well then it's racism.
They have to do this because they know they are beaten on facts and can't refute them. It's their only defense.
I've got news for India, Inc. and Fraudwha: no one in America cares if you call them a racist. Your con is exposed. The game is up.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Free speech is a dying concept...
Fortunately, no government understands the internet.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I can't agree with you on this one, Mike. You can copyright anything. It doesn't have to be accurate, just created. Fiction writers do it every day.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Uh....WHAT??!! You're suggesting that Apex created a FICTIONAL work agreement? A fictional internal company document? Why in the sweet hell would they do THAT?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
BTW
I did not review all the facts from the other sites but given your description of the events, I rather enjoyed this post. Thanks
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
99% had nothing to do with APEX, 1% that did wasn't racist
And 3-sites were ordered shutdown. Only one of which uses racially derogatory phrases.
The notion that there is some group that posts or meets online, in secret, is pure fantasy. I am not affiliated with any such group, yet have been accused of being a guildy-thug.
The slippery slope is that this Libel, this slander, perpetrated by someone (?or group? ;) ) against me, should then allow me to out the anonymous poster and then close-down his/her website (and a couple of other I don't happen to like). Well that is exactly what happened in this case, can (all you pro-slavery people) see just how wrong it was to close down 3 whole websites?
So people in this debate should delude themselves into thinking that there is some small group you can shut-down, and then you never have think before you post again. And you actually have to construct (because the facts compiled speak plainly about h-1b) some reason why Indentured Servitude is okay and good for the United States.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
A question
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: A question
So the answer to "when do Americans get hired" is "when they qualify for the skilled jobs in question."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A question
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Double Standards
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Double Standards
-- Azim Premji 2008
"India's engineers are better than the best American engineers"
-- Karin Karnik, NASSCOM 2003
"American grads are unemployable"
-- Vineet Nayar, HCL India CEO 2009
No racism going on there, right? What goes around comes around India.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Double Standards
As for Vivek, he's just being paid by NASSCOM to hype India so they can dump more of their desperate unemployed on our shores becuse they see $ here and they want to grab it.
Meanwhile, Bell Labs where C and UNIX were invented are now being turned into a shopping mall under Indian national Arun Netravalli's brilliant guidance. While these armies of faking charlatans from India clean out our economy, they are destroying every tech institution we have.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: A question
You just don’t get it do you, you ignorant c*nt. No one here cares about your supremacist rants, you bit*h. If you choose to side with racists like the bloggers in question, you are free to do so obviously, under the First Amendment. But that doesn’t excuse the fact that the death threats Tunnel Rat constantly posted, violated the law. In case you didn’t know, posting death threats is a federal crime. So, STFU you ignorant imbeclie tw*t. You may now go f*ck yourself you racist c*nt.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A question
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: A question
Incidentally, in my view it is totally appropriate to confine the speech in different fora to language and topics that are appropriate to those fora. In this forum, the topic is whether the Court's overreaching censorship was appropriate (not immigration,) and the language is supposed to be circumscribed by the terms of use.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: A question
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: A question
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A question
Stop pretending you are just a regular poster. You are Vivek, the David Duke of India. Supreme Leader of the Indian Aryan Nation.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A question
Where are the mass guest worker visa programs for 5 million Americans to go work in India? They don't exist. Racists? That would be India, not America. If America were racist would we have let you in to begin with.
Why doesn't Japan open its borders to foreign workers en masse the way America has? In fact, Japan is in the process of deporting foreign workers right now. The whole world is racist, get over it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A question
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A question
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: A question
"they certain aren't opening their doors wide to us"
Please visit a foreign country and let me know if you see any signs of American businesses being active there. You know: are they watching any Hollywood movies? Are they drinking any Coke? Do they drive any GM or Ford cars? Wear any Levi Jeans? Do they use Google for search? That kind of thing.
Then tell me when the last time you had a ride in a Mahindra car here in the US. Or the last time you used Baidu for a search. Or the last time you subscribed to Prime as your cellular phone company.
The reality is, those companies have been a target market for Western businesses for centuries, just as we've bought some of their commodities and used their labor. That's called "trade" and economists look at it as a good thing, which brings UP both sides.
Instead of looking at a country with a large population as a big threat, why don't you look at it like Coke looks at it: like a big opportunity, and a big market. It works both ways.
Similarly, California is a massive state with over 30 million people. We outnumber states like Rhode Island by factors much higher than 4 to one. Yet, somehow, Rhode Island manages to trade with us, operate in the same market, and survive. You are afraid of large populations, and your fear affects your judgement.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A question
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A question
In the process of trying to sell to our enemies, and in trying to provide them with jobs so they can buy our products, you are funding America's destruction. You will be the first whinning and wondering how it happened when it comes.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: A question
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
H1B'
Speech must be protected. It is the precious liberty.
In the Bill of Rights where it says "THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE" that means you and I!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Reminds me of a couple of record labels I know of...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Free Speech
Case in point: I called my local house cleaning service and got 2 wonderful people who spoke broken English, but well enough to understand. The couple was around 45 or so and had ran away from a dictatorship in their South American country.
The man was a Medical Doctor in his country with a thriving practice. He told me the story of making the mistake of agreeing with one of his patients that the current government was corrupt. The next thing he knows is he is running for his life.
What's the point? You ask. I thought it was really sad that a trained Medical Doctor was cleaning my house. Only because the immigration dept. and the AMA decided that the colleges he went to were not certified by them so his Degree didn't count. Wha????
He was good enough to practice medicine in his country but not good enough to practice here? He could not even test his skill and prove that he was a trained physician in the land of the free.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Free Speech
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Free Speech
Really? Because you're doing that now. That's any country in the world, genius.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Free Speech
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Free Speech
One could argue that the extra training years do not actually improve the quality of the practitioner, but the standards are clearly different.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Free Speech
That's the real reason for all of this.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Free Speech
Oh, wait, what was I thinking - those are elites who have lobbies like AMA and ABA protecting their jobs so they don't have to worry about being replaced by cheaper labor.
And last time I checked I didn't see any politicians making $200K a year creating any new $1.4 trillion industries for America.
A good stock broker who brings in $3 million a year for his or her firm gets paid $1 million a year in commissions. Why shouldn't an ace programmer who brings in $20 million in form of a software product make $200K. Can't have any of that. Have to make sure they only make $40K if they can find a job at all - can't be rewarding really productive Americans too much, you know.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Free Speech
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Free Speech
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Free Speech
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anti-Immigration
I would be all for the H-1B's if illegal immigration was completely shut down.
These anti-immigration sites and blogs only hurt their own cause by using racial slurs. Most people simply label them as racists ad move on. Shutting them down gives them far more symapthy and attention then they ever got while operating.
To get back on topic...Free Speech is Free Speech. You can't pick and choose. Protecting someone elses right to use racial slurs also protects your right to criticize the president. The Civil Liberties Union has often found itself in the position of defending racists, satanists, convicts and all manner of human scum in an effort to protect laws that give us all rights and freedoms.
If you need any proof of this just look at the patriot act that was supposed to be all about protecting us against terrorism but is used primarily against Americans in cases that have nothing to do with terrorism.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
www.endh1b.com
You can see a mirror at www.endh1b2.com and decide for yourself.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: www.endh1b.com
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
"Challenge us and we will hunt you down and silence you. You have no right to oppose our outsourcing and offshoring agenda. If you do, we will call you a racist and xenophobe, and have you blacklisted so that you can never work again. We call the shots now. This is how things are done where we come from."
That should bother every American.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Hear hear!
Not sure which is correct. But either way, this is a very good post.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
For Vivek this is personal, so he can't see the forest through the trees
If you don't agree with me, maybe after someone decides to SLAPP your website, you will.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Owed a living
What is America today?
Up until late 1998 when the visa caps were raised, Silicon Valley was 98% white American males. It's that demographic who created the IT industry long before the rest of the world wanted in. So what did we do? We took those jobs away from the Americans who worked very very hard to create them, and gave them all away to millions of people from a 3rd world country who didn't have to lift a finger to create them. The world doesn't owe everyone a job, but America does owe those who create the next big booming industry jobs.
Why is it always Americans who have to bear the brunt of doing all the hard work to create every new industry but it is always other nations who reap the rewards? In 1998 American IT workers were promised that these millions of foreign workers would only be here TEMPORARILY and would GO HOME after the boom. They are not only still here, but now they have TAKEN OVER. The media (such as this website) conveniently changed the story to "global competition" once the workers were here. China and India (and Japan) are the most protectionist countries in the world and they are booming. America used to be protectionist and used to be booming.
Not any more.
Globalization is a subtle new form of communsim - giving good jobs to countries that did not have to work to create them. India does not deserve America's jobs because India is an unproductive nation.
When Americans were running Silicon Valley in 1998 the U.S. economy was booming. Now that Indians have taken over Silicon Valley and won't hire Americans, the U.S. economy isn't doing so well, is it?
Import 3rd world labor, you get a 3rd world economy. Time for full deportation now and give the jobs back to those who worked so hard to create them originally - Americans.
The world doesn't owe India a living. Let them go home and compete from their own soil like all the other countries do instead of occupying America with a discriminatory invasion force of over 4 million workers.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Owed a living
Um...were you in Silicon Valley in 1998? Because I was. And it was NOT 98% white Americans. Do you have a source for that claim?
"Globalization is a subtle new form of communism"
Communism is a system of government control/ownership of the means of production. Globalization is system where corporations can access a free global market for goods and labor.
"The media (such as this website) conveniently changed the story to "global competition"
Not Mike. Not me. My Econ degree in 1987-91 taught me that I would have to succeed in a globally competitive world. That has been my understanding for my entire adult life: compete in a global market and succeed. To deny the existence of life outside our borders seems xenophobic.
"America used to be protectionist"
You probably aren't aware that the League of Nations developed the modern concept of passports during the 1920s.
Are you familiar with "Ellis Island"? They asked immigrants 29 questions, and then they were basically American. They did turn back the sick and insane.
Do you know what is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty?
"From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command...Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Is this "used to be protectionist" America that you wish to revive?
"When Americans were running Silicon Valley in 1998 the U.S. economy was booming. Now that Indians have taken over Silicon Valley and won't hire Americans, the U.S. economy isn't doing so well, is it?"
- stupid non-sequitur. Not even remotely causal.
"Import 3rd world labor, you get a 3rd world economy"
No, you get cheaper products. You also will need to be more productive than them if you wish to earn more. Tough. Work hard, compete, be productive, succeed, America. Fair for them, fair for me.
"[jobs for] those who worked so hard to create them originally - Americans."
What did I do to create my first job that an Indian kid didn't do? I have all kinds of advantages over an Indian. Why do I need unfair advantages, too? I would only need that if I were too lazy to hustle or to incompetent to be productive.
"The world doesn't owe India a living."
...but you think it owes Americans a living? The world owes NO ONE a living.
Wow. And you vote? Damn.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Owed a living
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Owed a living
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Owed a living
The mass invasion of foreiners in silicon valley happened in early 1999 and 2001 as a result of the massive guest worker increases in oct. 1998 and april 2000, respectively. I am a software engineer of 20 years and I can assure you, before that it was 98% white american males. How long have you lived in the valley and do you even work in software?
Communism is a system of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs - as in taking IT jobs from Americans who created them and giving them to lazy 3rd world countries which didn't - such as India and China. Gorbachev laid out his plan for globalization in his 1989 book "Perestroika - new thinking for our country and the world". I suggest you read it becsuse you are being deceived. Don't make the mistake of thinking communism is only governmental. Globalization was all planned by the soviets. Also google "communist goals 1963" and see how oneof their major goals since the 60s was free trade and movement of people - so they could coke here and get OUR tech which they need in order to build their military industry so they can attack us. You are sorely mistaken.
For 50 years our foefathers who had to experience the result of free trade (WW2) would not allow trade with certain other countries becuase they knew from experience it would cause world war. But you have forgotten that lesson. There was a reason we didnt trade with India or china or Russia in any large manner before 1998 - because it is dangerous to do so. But you, like most aamericans think everyone is our friend now.
And of course they taught you globalization in college - the professors were all communist and wanted you to think it was ok to trade with enemies. Even Gorbachev was a professor of business at Northwestern U after the fall of the soviet union. What do you suppose he taught in his 'business' classes - globalization of course. And you being naive bought it hook, line, and sinker. You've been brainwashed by enemies of America and you dont even know it.
Some inscription on the statue of liberty is not the same as govt policy. It was a gift from France for crying out loud. Most of America's policies were closed for most of the 20th century - the few times were werent has been disastrous 1906-1920 caused the great depression and world war 2, ted kennedy's 1965 titdalwave caused the economic mess of the 70s, and the flood which began in 1998 caused the mess we are in now. WW3 is likely to follow. Let's see how much you like foreign nations when they come and blast your country to smithereens.
Americs is already more productive than than the 3rd world. US GDP is seven times that of India despite India having four times as much labor. indian workers are ranked 54th in a UN/ILO report in 2008. That's why American workers should be paid more - they are massively more productive. And it's kind of hard to compete when you are being kept out of the job market by some angry aindian who resents white people becsue of some 200-year old hangup they have about the British. Learn some history. Americans are being kept out of the job market by foreigners - deliberately.
Is the US better off now with cheaper products, or back when products were expensive but everyone could afford to buy them. Bottom-feeding is no way to run an economy.
Americans created IT. India never even saw a keyboard until 1989. From 1978-1998 thrre were very very few foreingers in IT in America. All those jobs and companies were created by Americans. indians did nothing to build those companoes. Yet in 1998 those jobs started going to walk-in Indians by the millions. You have advantages because your forefathers worked hard to build America and give you those advanatages, not becsuse of some accident.
Why should Walk-in Indian workers be given the fruits of 500 years of civilization built by Europeans when Indians didn't contribute anything to it over those 500 years?
You are a communist - you think everyone should have equal everything regardless of who worked and who didn't.
How is working hard 16 hours a day for 15 years an "unfair advantage". Someone works hard and produces, they have EARNED the right to keep their position - not have some newcomer right off the plane who has never worked a day in their life step into their job and take over.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Wadhwa hypocrite - Censors appropriate comments
Wadhwa’s hypocritical journalism selectively censors appropriate feedback on Tech Crunch and Business Week that does not fan the flames of his racist agenda.
The censored feedback below illustrates this author’s point that Wadhwa avoids and/or twists facts to advance his destructive agenda. His divisive opinions are and impede free speech . His questionable studies are factually inaccurate, and likely funded by biased parties.
The web of corruption includes
- Greedy corporations and other financial beneficiaries of H1b legislation
- Biased media coverage studies in media reliant on corporate ad $
- Corrupt politicians who pass special purpose legislation that only benefit corporate greed in exchange for campaign contributions and media coverage.
This deadly corruption cocktail reinforces egregious US guest worker laws that deprive Americans the ability to compete for jobs in the USA .
I disagree with the author’s opinion of American job entitlement and applaud the author’s good fortune to be employed in today’s economy.
Sadly, my experience is different. I was laid off from my high tech job and replaced by multiple foreign visa workers. A top performer with the world’s largest high tech firms for over 15 years, makes no difference that I have a solid job history, advanced tech degree (from top school) earned at night while working full time. State of the art skills with Dean’s list honors. Despite a tireless job search, doing everything possible, every day - hundreds of applications, networking, etc, etc. I am shocked and very sad to mark the one-year anniversary of my unemployment.The egregious laws governing H-1B and L-1 visas deprive Americans the right to COMPETE for jobs in the USA. Not the right to jobs .
Don’t believe me, check
www.twitter.com/endh1bonlyjobs for hundreds of H-1B job alerts for US jobs only advertised in India .
Since these jobs are exclusively earmarked for offshore workers, US workers cannot compete for these jobs.
-------------------------------------
Wadhwa censored the following Techcrunch comment. Why?
-------------------------------------
Wadhwa's focus on TR's comments has NOTHING to do with the court ruling to shockingly shut down 3 websites. Why? Because a website linked to a former Apex employee's unfavorable post about the company and posted an employment contract on an outside site. TR blog posts had nothing to do with the lawsuit.
Wadhwa's negligent article tries to incite anger among readers and uses the lawsuit as an excuse to express HIS racist opinions.
Like cancer, the H-1B fraud and abuse has gone undetected for a long-time. Then, the economy tanked. Unemployment is over 10% - yet foreign workers continue to flood the job market and deprive Americans the right to compete for jobs in our own country?
Self-appointed best and brightest, talent knows no borders and Americans are far smarter, technical and state of the art than your egos lead you to believe.
I don't care if the foreign worker who replaced me was black or black, from Mumbai or Mars. corporate greed, and political corruption were the reasons I was laid off, NOT RACE .
Wadhwa, stop playing the race card because you feel you're backed into a corner. The facts do not back up your opinion, your racist statements are dangerous. Your deliberate censorship of contrary opinions restricts free speech. You do a disservice to your profession, country, and betray H-1b workers.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Migrants
1906-1920 - Huge wave from Europe - Great Depression in 1929.
1965 - Ted Kennedy's Immigration Reform Act - Big recession 1973-1981
1990 - H-1B started - recession 1991-1993
Oct. 1998 - H-1B caps raised form 65,000 to 115,000 per year - collapse in 2001.
Apri 2000 - H-1B caps raised from 115,000 per year to 195,000 per year - collapse in 2008.
The fake "recovery" in the mid 2000's was no recovery - just cheap Fed credit making up for Americans losing their jobs.
America was built by Americans. Every buildup leads to immigrant takers who come in when times are good, strip the economy, then leave when times are bad - as they are now.
84% of the current U.S. population was born here. Do you seriously expect us to believe that 84% of the natives live off the work of the other 16% immigrants? Come on, stop being either a liar or delusional. Immigration is a disaster for America.
China and India don't have open borders. Did I mention they are booming.
Free Trade caused WW2 - America in the 1920s sold its scrap steel to Japan and England's Rolls Royce sold aircraft engines and factories to Hitler. We all know how that turned out.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Migrants
Um. Correlation. Causation. Look up the difference.
And even your "facts" are questionable. Believing that a very small number of H-1Bs resulted in recession? Wow.
America was built by Americans.
Nearly all of whom immigrated here.
Every buildup leads to immigrant takers who come in when times are good, strip the economy, then leave when times are bad - as they are now.
This is the most ridiculous statement I have seen. Where did your ancestors come from? Where did the ancestors of every top employer in the US come from? Your ignorance is astounding.
Immigration is a disaster for America.
Then why do you not go back to where you came from?
Free Trade caused WW2 - America in the 1920s sold its scrap steel to Japan and England's Rolls Royce sold aircraft engines and factories to Hitler. We all know how that turned out.
Your economic and historical ignorance is astounding. Please. Learn something.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Migrants
Your economic and historical ignorance is astounding. Please. Learn something."
Now hold on. That guy is an economic moron, but both of the claims he stated about how American/British companies traded with the Axis powers are absolutely true. And they're not even the big deal instances, like with Ford, IBM, and everyone trading with IG Farben and their american subsidiaries.
So, historically, what's the issue?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Migrants
Today we sell oir mfg. Tech to China. And our advanced weapons to India - deluding ourselves that they are our allies. Both countries harbor centuries-old grievances against the west, much as Hitler's Germany harbored deep resentments against the Treaty of Versaille.
The old historical resentments from China/India and most of the rest of the world are about to come back and haunt us. What's worse we are funding it by trading with them.
Those who do not learn from history.....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Migrants
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Migrants
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Migrants
That's correlation, not causation...you know what, screw that, it's not even correlation!
Look at your immigration dates, say 1906-1920, then a depression in 1929. According to you, one followed the other..by 23 years.
Then you have your claimed immigration wave in 1990, followed by recession in 1991, a year after.
WTF? It takes 23 years in one case, and 1 year in the other. Could it just be that both are cyclical or may even be random? And that you just point to a wave of immigration, await the next recession, and incorrectly see causation? Well, at least that fits an anti-immigration agenda...so long as you're willing to forgo the use of reason.
And for your 1973 recession and 1981, too. You blame two recessions on one wave of immigration. Have you ever heard of OPEC? Those recessions aren't exactly mysteries.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Migrants
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Racism
http://www.globalindiafoundation.org/
"Indianness"? What if an American put up a site saying "Whiteness"? What would happen.
Why does the media get so bent out of shape about Americans who try to expose the rampant ethnic cleansing India, Inc. is doing in American IT but it doesn't care one whit about all the Hitler-like racism that Indians conduct on American citizens every day?
Unless of course NASSCOM or Wipro is paying sites like techdirt to print such article calling any American who wants U.S. immigration laws enforced "racist".
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Laws
TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER II
> Part II > § 1182
§ 1182. Inadmissible aliens
(5) Labor certification and qualifications for certain immigrants
(A) Labor certification
(i) In general, any alien who seeks to enter the United States for the purpose of performing skilled or unskilled labor is inadmissible, unless the Secretary of Labor has determined and certified to the Secretary of State and the Attorney General that—
(I) there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified
(or equally qualified in the case of an alien described in clause (ii)) and available at the time of application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor, and
(II) the employment of such alien *** will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of workers in the United States *** similarly employed. (ii) Certain aliens subject to special rule For purposes of clause (i)
(I), an alien described in this clause is an alien who—
(I) is a member of the teaching profession, or
(II) has exceptional ability in the sciences or the arts.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Who to Contact to Enforce Inadmissible Aliens Law
Anyone aware of how to report inadmissible aliens and to whom? Any precedent case
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Apex can't have it both ways
I don't like the terms "STFU Dolores" mentions. OTOH, it is true that a large proportion of H-1B and L-1 grantees are from India, and that the proportion of illegal aliens from India in the USA is up as a result, and some managers and guest-workers and ministers and ambassadors appear to be irrationally biased against native US citizens.
Filling out "Mike's" time-line:
1965: Hart-Celler-Kennedy Immigration "Reform" Act (went into effect 1968-07-01)
1973-1981: big recession; stagflation; price controls; fuel lines
1980: Lester Thurow reported "a depression from 1929 to 1940, a war from 1941 to 1945, a recession in 1949, a war from 1950 to 1953, recessions in 1954, 1957-1958, and 1960-1961, a war from 1965 to 1973, a recession in 1969-1970, a severe recession in 1974-1975, and another recession probable in 1980... we need to face the fact that our economy and our institutions will not provide jobs for everyone who wants to work."
1982 January: body shopping begins explosive growth due to changes in tax laws; at first it's out-sourcing/contracting within the USA
1980s: Timbuk3 released "The Future's So Bright I've Got to Wear Shades"; popular "success" movies included "Working Girl" and "The Secret of My Success" (the last a bit of a riff on the 1950s flick "How to Succeed in Business without Really Trying")
1986: NSF says they want cheaper PhDs and proposes more student visas and creation of an additional visa program as a means; and projects a short-fall of 675K STEM workers without any evidence; tax rule 1706 encourages body shopping
1986-11-06: Simpson-Mazzoli Immigration Reform & Control Act grants massive amnesty, creates visa waiver program, drastically alters visa priority scheme, reduces privacy of US citizens, encourages the "anchor baby" gambit
1987: stock market crash; "As late as 1987, 60K graduates were competing for about 25K open positions, according to Janet Ruhl, author of _The Programmers Survival Guide_" --- Margie Wylie _CNET_ "The skills shortage that isn't: When the rising tide floats employees' boats, employers proclaim disaster"
1989: Berlin wall comes down; federal government dumps thousands of scientists and engineers onto the job markets, many of them remain unemployed until at least 1998
1990: H-1B hatched (effective 1991-10-01); body shopping crosses borders; recession 1991-1993 followed by "jobless recovery"; many baby boomers reaching what usually are prime earning years when earnings are used to educate and otherwise aid maturing children, and save and invest for retirement
1998: IT lay-off announcements spike, dot-com shake-out begins
1998 October: H-1B caps temporarily raised form 65,000 to 115,000 per year
2000 January 01: Y2K bust, dot-com shake-out peaks
2000 March 10: stock market crash
2000 April: lobbyist Joel Stewart declared "even in a depressed economy, employers who favor aliens have an arsenal of legal means to reject all U.S. workers who apply."
2000 October: H-1B caps temporarily raised from 115,000 per year to 195,000 per year
2001 April: general US job market crash
2001 November: jobless recovery begins
2003: United States-Chile Free Trade Agreement and US-Singapore FTA set aside 1,400 H-1B1 visas for nationals of Chile and 5,400 for nationals of Singapore
2004: H-1B cap drops back to 65K (58,200+1400 Chile+5400 Singapore), but H-1B Visa Reform Act of 2004/Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2005, added 20K exemptions for those with master's and doctor's degrees from US colleges and universities, signed into law on 2004 December 8, while retaining open ended exemptions for an unlimited number of employees of federal, state, and local government, US colleges and universities, and non-profit research centers. (Most of the Chile and Singapore set-asides go unused and are added to the next year's 58,200 general allotment.)
2005 May: US-Australia FTA created E-3 visa with limit of 10,500 per year
2006: Sona Shah demonstrated to congressional committee that recruiters are eager to place/hire bright candidate right up to the time they learn the candidate is a US citizen
2007 May: prominent immigration law firm teaches that the goal is to avoid advertising jobs where many able and willing US citizens will become aware of them, and that a gauntlet of filters and pretexts should be created to declare all US applicants either "unqualified" or unwilling to work (at well below local market compensation); immigration lawyer association supports them, declaring resentment that they should even have to go through this "charade" rather than simply hiring the cheaper, more pliant foreign workers with more flexible professional ethics straight-away
2008 April 09: DHS extended Optional Practical Training (OPT) from 12 months to 29 months, to give foreign students plenty of time to set up a pretext for additional time in the USA on a student visa or multiple cycles to get an H-1B visa, while displacing thousands of bright, knowledgeable, industrious, creative US students from these internship and employment opportunities
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Apex can't have it both ways
1992-1994: The term "downsizing" was coined. IBM lays off 128,000 workers. Massive unemployment in the tech sector. George H. Bush loses incumbency due to economy, saying "I personally don't think the economy is all that bad."
1995: Rapid growth of Internet creates new surging demand - tech employees get their jobs back. Dotcom boom begins.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The falacy that because are ancenstors are immigrants, we are all immigrants
Further it is unconstitutional to pass the transgressions of our ancenstors onto the current generation. This is an old-world concept.
But I do support helping Native Americans, they are desparately poor in some places, and they do need our help. We cannot turn our back on our fellow citizens.
We should not use a saying as an excuse to act like lemmings and jump off the cliff, in regards to immigration issues.
We need an immigration policy and enforcement in the United States, there is simply too much at stake for our progeny.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Can't believe these people have made their way here
They even got Matoloff -- a university professor to post garbage on TechDirt! He should take his followers back to his bunker.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here
They join the local Klan groups to get encouragement from others.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here
I wouldn't bother to even try reasoning with scum like these. Like you rightly said, they are probably trailer-trash, typing away their ignorant bigoted rants. Just ignore them. Don't waste your keystrokes - they are simply not worth it. They sure remind me of that South Park episode ("Dey Tuk Err Jaabs"):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLni3wbndls&feature=related
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here
Try sticking to facts. Hurtling insults is not a valid way to prove an argument (unless you're still in 7th grade).
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here
The facts and disastrous economy prove that logical, reasoning people would be against more immigration. No one be,ieves your false characterizations anymore.
And if hurtling insults at someone is the best argument for immigration that you can come up with, you've already lost the argument.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here
> these people to come here?
Well, that's a pretty bigoted comment in and of itself.
You win the irony award for the week. Well done!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
More falacy, I am not from the south
You (I mean your arguments) really don't hold water.
Because bigotry is not an argument.
If you can stick to creating a logical argument, instead of engaging in proto-bigotry (bigotry with little cultural maturity), I think you could be more persuasive.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Some great studies on H1b
The U.S. government estimates that 21% of H-1B visa petitions are in violation of H-1B program rules -- ranging from technical violations to fraud -- based on the investigation of a representative sample.
A newly available report on the study, drafted by the Office of Fraud Detection and National Security, cites one of the most common violations as businesses that did not pay a "prevailing wage" to the H-1B beneficiary, meaning the going salary rate for a job in a specific market.
From New York University - Stern School of Business:
Globalization is wonderful, and does no harm anywhere, that's the line we've been fed. But a new study, titled "H-1B Visas, Offshoring, and the Wages of US Information Technology Workers" by Prasanna B. Tambe of New York University - Stern School of Business and Lorin M. Hitt of University of Pennsylvania - The Wharton School aims to dispel "the myth that globalization generates no losers," the authors state. *
Our estimates indicate that H-1B admissions at the current levels are associated with a 5-6% drop in wages for computer programmers and systems analysts. Offshoring appears to lower the wages of a slightly broader class of IT workers, including IT managers, by about 3%.
From the AFL-CIO:
"Employers often set lower salaries by: selecting a survey source with the lowest salaries, misclassifying experienced employees as entry-level, giving an H-1B visa holder a lower job title than [his or her] work requires, or citing wages for a low-cost area of the country while the H-1B holder is unlawfully transferred to a higher-cost area."
Even Vivek Wadhwa:
"This whole concept of shortages is bogus; it shows a lack of understanding of the labor pool in the USA," Videk Wadhwa, a professor at Duke University's Master of Engineering Management Program, said to Baseline Magazine in 2008. Wadhwa also rejected the shortage notion based on wages.
"It doesn't add up. We live in a free economy," Wadhwa told Baseline. "If we were sitting in a government-controlled economy it would be one thing, but in a free economy what happens ... when shortages begin to develop is that prices rise and the money compensates for the shortage."
From a Rochester University Study:
There is no shortage of STEM graduates, but a shortage of jobs.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Some great studies on H1b
Which competent person claimed that there are no losers? Anyone who suggests that globalization ONLY has benefits is just as ridiculous as those that claim it ONLY has costs.
Policy debates and choices usually have some amount of benefits and some amount of costs, and the two must be considered to try to arrive at some maximization of net social benefit, or some other policy goals.
So, of course, globalization has losers. The most obvious ones would be people who sit on their behinds and don't work as hard as the foreigners with whom we now must compete. Or those that, despite the great education opportunities in this country, haven't raised their skills above those of the average Indonesian. Of course, there are losers.
Don't misinterpret me to be saying everyone hurt by globalization is lazy, either. That's not what I said. Many good workers will also be hurt by the additional competition. But for those of us who actually believe in competition, the lower prices for goods and services and more competitive human resources lead to net social outcomes that are better than closing our borders. So while a good US laborer might earn less income, she would STILL be able to buy more goods and services because prices are lower.
So it sounds like the studies you quote have debunked a myth that no one claimed to be true. Good job taking down the strawman.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Some great studies on H1b
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Some great studies on H1b
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Americans are the least racist people on earth.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
D.O.J. had nothing to do with shutting down TR's site
The reason given was that they had links to a posting by an Indian Citizen, detailing the abusive contract by the private company APEX.
If D.O.J. had tried something like this, the ACLU would have been all over this case, and D.O.J. would have lost.
Freedom of Speech, in the United States, protects all speech, including speech which we disagree with. This prevents a tyranny of the majority, trampling the rights of the minority.
Remember, part of what made 18th century slavery possible was that slaves were not given the ability to read, write, and speak publicly.
U.S. citizens know, whether we are on the freeway, in a public place, that violence in response to the political demonstration, is the crime. Violence is the crime, not the speech, in the United States.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Website Shutdown
"The sites are undoubtedly racist and despicable. Some of the posts are, clearly, hate speech, and inciting violence against certain individuals."
I believe most rational, intelligent people would agree
that if its against the law in the physical world, then it
should also be against the law in cyberspace. Websites that
promote hate-speech, race-based violence, and straight racism have no place in public discourse and should be removed.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]