Students Given Detention Just For Becoming 'Fans' Of A Page Making Fun Of A Teacher
from the not-a-fan dept
We've been seeing more and more stories like this, as various schools seem to overstep the boundaries of school property into the online world to try to regulate student speech. It's highly questionable as to whether or not they have the legal right to do so (and, in fact, there are cases that suggest that there's a significant limit to how much schools can even prevent students from speaking out while on campus as well). This latest case, sent in by reader Keyop, highlights a high school in Syracuse that gave detention to a group of students who had joined a Facebook group that made fun of a teacher. The school claims that the page about the group was derogatory and libelous. Even if we accept that's true, this seems to step over the line in a variety of ways. First, students always make fun of teachers they don't like. It's part of being in high school. Pretending you can stop that isn't going to change the human nature of teenagers. Second, even if the content is libelous, at most, shouldn't the detention have only been given to those who actually posted the libelous information, rather than to everyone who became a "fan" or "member" of the group?
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Or maybe you can try to understand that everywhere's not America.
If Syracuse is anything like India, (and a lot of places are like India when it comes to this) schools there have a long-established history and tradition of authoritarianism... to the point that people will be surprised if they're not authoritarian.
So why complain about ONE particular instance? Probably not an isolated incident.
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You do realize of course ... that would be Syracuse, NY (in the US)
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Re: Re: Re: Get a grip
Perhaps you should actually click on the link in the story so you don't embaress yourself. The link CLEARLY goes to a newsite in Syracus, NY.
Not Italy... not outside the US. Syracuse, NY.
Geez... 2 seconds and you would have hidden the fact that you're an idiot a little longer...
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Re: Re: Re: Italy???
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From the article.
NORTH SYRACUSE, NY (WSYR-TV) -- Students from Roxboro Road Middle School.
Now go home.
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What a fucking moron.
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Do you think Syracuse is a country?
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It is true that "everywhere's not America." In this case, however, the city of Syracuse, in the state of New York, in the USA, is.
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Re: Syracuse
> Or maybe you can try to understand that everywhere's
> not America.
But Syracuse is America, dumbass. It's Syracuse, New York, USA.
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50 years ago, someone might have put something rude on the blackboard or put up a paper on the wall. Becoming a fan at that point would have been signing "I agree - bob" or something like that on the paper.
There is a huge difference between students making fun of a teacher over lunch "Mr Jones is a weenie!", and actually taking it public. They crossed the line along the way, and they pay the price. To be honest, they should be lucky the teacher isn't one of those Americans with a lawyer on speed dial, as the content might have been actionable.
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We can not tolerate even one free thinking individual on our society. Discipline needs to be very strict in school so that these citizens become accustomed to the way it will be under their overlords heel.
( just in case - yes it was sarcasm)
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If the page is set to private, you can't see what's on the page without becoming a 'fan'. Same as with people not being able to see your info, unless people become "friends".
So, no it is not like signing your name in agreement. How can you agree with something that you haven't even read yet?
Would I risk detention if I became a "Facebook fan" of TAM?
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The answer to the problem of online defamation is more speech. Just like with copyright, the answer to the problems of artists and studios is more sharing. Sharing is CARING, TAM, didn't you know that?
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Artists and right's holders are weak and TAM is strong!
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I guess I missed the part where "Becoming A Fan" on Facebook was some sort of binding contract stating that you apparently agree with every comment posted in the group. To fix your analogy, becoming a fan is like coming into the classroom every day and reading what's on the blackboard/paper on the wall and adding your name to the list of "People who've read this."
Having been in a similar situation as this before (except my friends and I were suspended for it), I'd be interested to see what comments the superintendent felt were libelous. IANAL but from what I understand opinion, so long as it is not expressed as fact, is not libel. "I think Mr. Teacher is a knob-gobbling pedo" is hurtful and mean, but its an opinion and would likely not hold up in court. "Mr. Teacher likes little boys" probably falls into libel. But, that libel only applies to the person making the statement. Making that statement surrounded by a group of ten people does not in fact make those 10 people guilty of libel (or in this case slander). As far as I can tell with regards to the law, there's no "huge difference." Making a verbal statement over lunch is slander, writing it down is libel. The only difference is the context of the statement.
Also, last I checked, there's no asterisk by freedom of speech in the Constitution. There's no rider that says none of this applies until you're 18. Schools would like to think differently, and most of the time, everybody gives in because 1) somehow "it's for the good of the children." and 2) wasting a few afternoons sitting at school is cheaper than going to court to prove a point.
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/sarcasm
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Congratulations on accurately stating the answer whilst simultaneously failing to realise it.
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Re: Nonsense
Ummm.. yeah. So?
Agreeing with libel or defamation doesn't make one legally liable for that defamation. And unless the laws have changed back when I was in school, the administration couldn't legally sanction kids for agreeing with someone who makes fun of a teacher (especially when it's done off school property and not during school hours). They could only punish the kid who made fun of the teacher, and then only if he did it in school.
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If all the suspended students were involved in making disparaging comments you might have a point. However, in yet another attempt to simply go against whatever Mike writes, you miss the point.
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I said it's like signing you name in agreement. Imagine a sheet of paper on the wall that says "This teacher is an idiot" and you add your name on it and say "yeah, I agree". It's pretty much in that sense.
When I join techdirt, I am admitting to enjoying tech and dirt. If I was a member of "I think obama is a dictator ass" then well, draw your conclusions.
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I know a whole bunch of Sarah Palin's fans just enjoy seeing what verbal diarrhea she'll come up with next, like watching a train wreck in action. It's just an unfortunate case of mistaken semantics that Facebook chooses to refer to "wanting to see/participate in the content" of X with "becoming a fan" of X. They are not always the same.
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Really, it's a fail on FB's part, making you have to become a 'fan' of, say the KKK, to be able to tell the other members what dufuses they are. All the more reason though that people should look at what is actually said in the group. Certainly it's unfair (no matter what TAM says, it's not quite like he says) to penalise people for joining, but without them saying anything really bad themselves. The 'subscribing to' model mentioned above is a much better model. After all, by TAM's argument, by 'joining' Techdirt, he has obviously automatically 'agreed' with any posting that Mike makes on it. Oh wait...
How long before kids start suing teachers for libel on their report cards? :)
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But, that doesn't appear to be the case...thus your analogy is rather busted.
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Becoming a "fan" of a Facebook group is the same as subscribing to a newsfeed. It is not an endorsement.
And it is not an analogy to signing "me too" to a disparaging comment. Writing on the Wall of the group "yeah, I agree that XXX sucks" is an analogy to signing "me too". Simply joining the group is the same as reading it and saying "I read this and would like to read it again and keep up with changes made to this."
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One asserts an opinion, while the other asserts a fact.
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the school is teaching the kind
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You were kidding, right?
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Re: You were kidding, right?
If you must know, though, I was trying to say that complaining about one incident is useless unless you complain about the underlying public morality.
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yes, it's Syracuse, NY
Although the legality of this is in question, at the very least I think the kids learned a very valuable lesson about posting information in such a public place as the internet. It's well know that employers often check the Facebook profiles of potential employees. You need to think about what type of image you might be portraying of yourself by the information you post and the pages you become a fan of.
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Poor analogy, but I hope you get the idea. Probably not, but worth the try.
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Instead of being open about their actions, now they have learned to do it in private b/c they might get in trouble otherwise. Good job!
Actually, it really is a valuable life lesson in this day in age. :P
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Social networking or "BIG BROTHER"
This is the very reason I have no internet "friends" and do not indulge. No facebook, myspace, twitter etc.
Better safe than sorry.
Besides all this I believe that all these such sites create and present a security problem to the user and the user's computer.
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Re: Social networking or "BIG BROTHER"
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Re: Social networking or "BIG BROTHER"
You never leave your house? The world is a dangerous place-- it's better to just lie down and wait for death-- better safe than sorry, right?
/sarcmark
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How come the rules are different if the target is an adult?
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Children are children and adults are adults. The teacher is meant to be a role model, not a whiny teenager too wrapped up in hormones and self doubt to see perspective. Hence, the different standard.
Also, how do they know the name on the account was the person who posted the comment? Getting the kid you want to bully into detention by hacking their account is exactly the kind of thing a high school bully would do.
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@PaulT
Aside from the issue about the teachers rights, schools rights etc., I'd like to comment on the general issue of character education. We certainly don't want to be raising a generation of people who go out of their way to do hurtful things. Freedom of speech is one thing, but we want to education our future generations how to act in society. This does not include bullying or harrassment in any way shape or form. Schools and parents alike should take it upon themselves to develop character in our youth.
Just the honest opinion of a Canadian reader.
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Now, students should be made aware of the possible repercussion of what they're doing, but unless there was some real threat behind their actions it's no different to what's been happening for centuries via email, text messages, paper notes and after-school gossip. I know that I mocked my teachers behind their backs on occasion, inside and outside of school, and I was hardly a bully or trouble maker.
All that's happened here is that the students have gotten the message "don't use Facebook, the school will spy on you" and that's hardly going to address whatever problem they had with the teacher in the first place - real or imagined. I will happily take back my comments if it turns out that the actions of the students online were actually harmful to anyone who belongs in that career, but sending kids to detention for the online equivalent of saying "I agree" is not a way to deal with problems, especially if such things are being said outside of school grounds.
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Re: @PaulT
> considered bullying or harrasment in any other
> place of work. Nobody should be subjected to that.
Except teachers are government employees and criticizing (and yes, even ridiculing) the government is one of the fundamental freedoms guaranteed to citizens of this country.
That's the burden you accept when you decide to work for the government. Other citizens can protest you, make fun of you, call you names, etc. Try being a cop for a while and see what happens. It'll make a silly Facebook page look tame by comparison.
You just suck it up and ignore it or find another line of work.
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But, it isn't what happened is it? Rather it is a bunch of little tin gods ignoring the First Admendment of students because it interfers with their delusions of power. Those educators responsible should be dismissed and their pensions should go to the college funds of the children that they are attempting to oppress. That would be a real education.
However, what's going to happen is that the taxpayers will pay for their mistakes and they will learn nothing.
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By your logic you're bullying me!
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By whom? Facebook is not school property. If the students weren't using school computers to post the comments on Facebook, it is none of the school's business at all. It is up the parents to deal with this situation.
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I don't understand the parents and others who pipe up in support of the children. It's not about rights, but decent behavior. The children should be taught that first.
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Since when is abuse of power decent behavior?
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Should the school be teaching decent behavior at the expense of limiting free speech? Who gets to determine what is decent? If the speech is not libelous (remembering that you even said it was bordering on it), why should the school be issuing punishment?
I'm in favor of parents teaching their kids to be decent people (we need more of that), but I am never in favor of an educational organization (especially a government run one) trampling free speech to make people 'decent'. Allowing the government to tell us what is decent is a really bad idea as history has proven it is a far too slippery slope to stop on.
I think the parents involved should be fighting this with the school and punishing their kids as they see fit for the bad behavior.
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This wasn't about decent behavior. This was about students attempting to undermine the authority of a teacher. Does it happen all the time? Of course. That doesn't mean that the school will let it go unpunished when they catch someone. The fact is, people today get outraged over really stupid stuff. I think the school was silly to have done what they did, and they will only draw more attention to the content in the long run. However, if a person was fired for comments they made about their boss on Facebook, no one would be complaining, even if it was a government job. These kids are receiving a real world lesson: you have the right to free speech, but that does not mean there will be no consequences for it.
In this case, the consequences were very minor. They had to sit at a desk for a few minutes. Whoopee. If that's all it takes to bring the parents to arms, they can send their kids to a private school, or homeschool, where they have more impact on the rules. I would be using the opportunity to teach my kids a thing or two about respect.
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Just noticed this in the article:
"Anderson says he should have been contacted before his daughter was punished and refuses to let her attend after-school detention." (Emphasis is mine.)
So, yes, as I suggested above, the parent has the right to override the school in this case.
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I hope the school suspends her for missing that detention, or even better, hold back here grades when she applies to go to a university.
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Yeah, that's what consumerism is about.
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Because parents and citizens, who fund public schools with THEIR tax dollars, should have no impact on the very schools they fund.
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> pipe up in support of the children. It's not about
> rights, but decent behavior. The children should be
> taught that first.
Parents can do both. If it were my kid, I'd privately take measures to punish / teach him/her that it was wrong behavior, but I'd publicly stand up against the abuse of power by the school.
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wondering
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OUTRAGE...over detention?
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Re: OUTRAGE...over detention?
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Re: OUTRAGE...over detention?
Aside from the sheer arrogance and disrespect shown by wrongly punishing kids, consider the long term effects it has. When those supposedly in a position of responsibility consistently punish rather than listen, what does that teach the kids? 'It doesn't matter what choices you make, those with authority don't pay attention to right or wrong anyway'.
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Re: Re: OUTRAGE...over detention?
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I can't say I agree with it, but I DO think that these self rightous little pricks need to be taught some respect. Teachers and Schools have far too little authority these days and it's creating a really obnoxious generation who seem to think they have the right to do whatever they want.
Or we could just do it your way. Let everyone do whatever they please and believe that their opinions are more important than anything else in the entire world. That'll be a nice place to live...
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As someone who is still trying to recover from the hell that was school, mostly due to the actions or inaction of teachers, I find your comments perversely obnoxious. All I have to show for being a willing pupil is a whole lot of suppressed anger at people who get paid to bully those in their care.
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This is retarded. Speech is free, but you can be thrown in jail and executed if you disagree with the president. By that standard free speech exists no matter where you live and has always existed everywhere. Your standard defeats the purpose of free speech, the purpose being able to exercise your free speech without punishment.
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Disrespect
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The problem is that too many parents do not teach their kids manners and good behaviour, yet when their liitle Janie or Johnnie does some miscreant behavior they just ignore it as if nothing has happened. They are too busy to see they are the real problem by just dumping their kids issues elsewhere.
Schoolboards have to be tough with these little bastards and what was imposed was far too lenient. A repeat offender or one who did serious reputation damage to a teacher should suffer permanent expulsion. Let them learn that any offence to the similar WILL result in permanent expulsion, and if the little shitheads don't like it, kick them out and get a job at McDonalds. Let the teachers do their job to teach and get rid of these spoiled troublemakers.
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Have you considered that?
Also, note that:
(1) There was no video of teacher humiliation uploaded to the internet.
(2) I doubt a Facebook page created by high school students constitutes a serious injury to reputation.
The rest of your comment was a "get off my lawn" rant, and therefore cannot be reasonably refuted.
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> WILL result in permanent expulsion
The only problem with your little authoritarian rant is that it's impossible to enforce.
If I'm Joe Student and I know that if I create a web page that my school doesn't like, I can be expelled, what do I do if I want to create that page anyway? Simple. Have my older brother or sister or friend or whoever (someone who doesn't go to that school and over whom the school has zero authority) put up the web page for me. All the content is mine, I get to proclaim to world how much Bob the Teacher sucks, but there's no blowback on me. Even if they suspect it's really me, they can't legally punish me for what someone else puts up on the web.
See how this works? The more control you impose, the harder it gets to actually control.
Or as the immortal Princess Leia once said, "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers..."
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Will one incident make a person guilty for expulsion? ... probably not since they will be given a second chance. However, when a repeat offender or person that has been proven guilty does get punished, it will deter even the last 10%.
It will also be harder for the true guilty to get accomplices when rules are stiffer and any fake is always capable of being traced back. Eventually it will be the guilty party who gets punished, and the more complex and devious the methods they used, the stiffer the penalty ... with perhaps expulsion from ALL schools.
Stiff rules with stiff punishment are needed to deter bad behavior when socially responsible behavior is not present.
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Suspensions??
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Private Property Rules
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Re: Private Property Rules
Outside of the school, the school should have little to no say. That is the provenance of the the student's legal guardian. Come on, America! Grow a new backbone!
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Re: Private Property Rules
And no, the school (or any school) has no legal right since only men have rights.
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Re: Private Property Rules
> property owner (such as a school or employer)
There's one small flaw in your theory: schools are not private property. Well, some are and we call them private schools, but that's not what we're talking about here. The school in question in *public* property. It's a government institution and as such it must abide by the same constitutional restraints as every other arm of government.
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fuck respect for them
so what respect do they deserve
FUCK EM HIGH
FUCK EM LOW
bomb the boats and feed the fucking flesh to the fish
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It's illegal
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This is mostly fantasy. The established legal precedent tends towards saying that minors don't have any rights and schools have been allowed to restrict speech however they want in most cases.
Yes, it's bullshit, but as far as established case law there's not really much foundation for what you wrote.
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I think you're wrong about precedent
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That is wrong in many ways.
I agree with the author of this article about the fact that it is our nature. I just want to add that violence is our nature as well. Not that violence is a bad thing. In fact I would allow elementary school student to fight.
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Not an Adult yet.
Even if it was not for a free speech thing, I think we hope everybody is well mannered that is the point of being in school to gain those manners or I could be the only one who thinks that way.
Now for punishing the kids, well they didn't do it in the school premisses so it should fallow the order and notify the parents about that conduct and ask if they need help to explain why that is not acceptable behaviour for society.
Kids should learn that they have options and should be given some room to exercise those options, they should be told why that is bad and should decide for themselves to take down those posts but it has to be done by them otherwise it taught nothing good, just that they need to hide.
Conclusion:
The school took the wrong approach and probably is infringing on free speech and should not be able to do so, but parents of some kids there need to take a step back and see what their kids were doing and have a long serious talk about why manners do matter.
What happened to dialogue before punishment?
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Are there any other teachers with a facebook page about them? If not, why was this teacher so special? Maybe instead of punishing the students for bad mouthing a teacher, they should take a closer look at that teacher to find out WHY the students would say such a thing. Also, maybe the school should look at it's own systems for students to provide feedback. It seems that there isn't an outlet for them, so they turned to facebook.
Now let's look at the flip side of the coin for a moment; if the students had of been apart of a group praising a teacher and saying how great that teacher was, would they have received the same punishment? Of course not. It's only b/c what they were saying wasn't liked by someone that they were punished for it.
I feel that the school very much over stepped their bounds on this one. The fact that the teachers seem to be patrolling social networking sites actually rather scares me. It seems to me that the school boards need to come up with some rules and set a line and teach the students what this line is. Living in a gray area then calling foul when a kid does something you don't like is NOT the way to do things.
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Teachers get paid to go to school, kids get forced to go to school.
One school was forced by my parents to do two tests (without me knowing what they were for), the first of which they ignored the results of and the second of which despite shocking the head mistress into submission, proved too little too late.
Eventually, despite having the supposed potential of a mensa candidate, I dropped out of school and into clinical depression. The tragic irony is that had I been a violent student I would almost certainly gotten the help I needed to progress. Being nice just got me ignored except when I failed to meet expectations, which was always met with threats and punishment.
I found some teachers more than willing to take out their anger towards specific pupils on a whole class. Most seemed completely ignorant of the fact that they have by choice taken on a job that makes them responsible for students who have been given no choice but to attend lessons. Nearly all teachers would punish for under achievement yet most would not make sufficient effort to find out why a student was unable to meet expectations.
Frankly, anyone telling me stories of teachers getting beaten up by packs of wild students will put me in mind of specific teachers to whom such a thing might be considered poetic justice.
Just so no one gets the wrong idea (the above is supposed to be one side of the story after all), there were some absolutely amazing teachers for whom I have nothing but praise and thanks. Unfortunately their efforts were rather overshadowed by the majority who left me feeling nothing but contempt for the profession.
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--- Actually, the correct interpretation from your comment is that by merely being a TechDirt member, you agree with whatever Mike posts, without ever commenting on any particular post. Your presence on the site is automatic agreement with whatever is posted here. Which, of course is as ridiculous as the point you are trying to make.
To use your own example, imagine that the sign was posted in the cafeteria, and students were made aware of it. In order to read it, they had to go into the cafeteria. When the principal finds out, he proceeds to suspend the people that signed it saying "I agree", and everyone else who was in the cafeteria who could have read it regardless of whether they agree or disagree with the statement. That's the ridiculous logic you are trying to defend...
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It's been hinted at, but has anyone said it?
If they wanted to hand out detentions, they could have at least asked some questions.
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OK Then...
Right. So then we all have no problems with a teacher creating a web page about his/her student "Johnny The Retard", who smells funny and has bladder control issues. And moans a lot.
It's called civility. This "fan group" is nothing more than a form of passive-aggressive bullying of a fellow human. Who cares if the teacher is deserving of it?
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THIRD...
After all, I can create a benign page on Facebook, garner lots of friends, and then alter page content to make it malignant. It would be unfair to punish friends of the page who hadn't realized the content changed.
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Expelled.
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i think that this is stupid and that students should not and can not get in trouble for things done off of the school campus ESPECIALLY online.
Now if a student printed it out and posted up around school or was showing it to people at school then they could get in trouble but not a detention or suspension!
Come on people really? It is stupid jokes. And we also have those rights. Freedom of speech and press. So we cant get in trouble for speeking or writing things like that.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
AND YES I DISAGREE WITH WHAT THEY DID!!!
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What the Fucshia are teachers doing on their students' facebook and giving them detention for something that didn't happen at school at all. I'd sue if my teacher did that to me.
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