But, Wait, Didn't The Entertainment Industry Insist ACTA Wouldn't Change US Law?
from the then-what's-this-about? dept
It's been amusing watching the entertainment industry lobbyists try to come up with talking points in support of their most favored trade agreement du jour, ACTA. A popular one is that nothing in it can or will change US law. But, of course, if you talk to the folks who know how these things work in DC, you quickly learn that's hogwash. There wouldn't be any ACTA at all if it wasn't out to change the laws, and it wouldn't be so secretive if it was just designed to keep the status quo. Case in point, not that we know for sure because we're still not being told what's in the document, but various sources have confirmed that "three strikes" legislation that would kick file sharers off the internet based on accusations (not convictions) is on the agenda. That's not in US law, and according to all the ACTA defenders out there, it would be impossible for this to be on the agenda because, we're told, ACTA can't possibly change US law. Not at all. Except for the parts that do seem to require changing US law.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: acta, three strikes
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It is my hope for your sake that you're being sarcastic. I have little faith in the sheeple that make up our country.
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So when is the govt going to change the images and statues of Lady Liberty to a prostitute?
At least be honest about it if you are screwing me.
Well doesn't this say everything:
http://zombietime.com/anti-july_4th_sf/IMG_4557.JPG
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Wont work
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Re: Wont work
We all know that the copyright industry wants three strikes imposed on customers. What most people don't realize is that ISPs want it too. They want to kick off the heavy users. They want to block "illegal" use such as bittorrent. They want to stop anything or anyone which does not earn them a profit.
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Re: Re: Wont work
And if the ISP doesn't give me an opportunity to resign my contract (i personally won't) and they change the terms of service that drastically I can take them to court over that issue as well.
Of course this is assuming our legal system isn't corrupt and being paid off (not a stretch by any means (see:lawyers)).
I'm just saying one lawsuit over this, especially a class action lawsuit, might make the heavy users seem like a light tax in comparison.
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Re: Re: Re: Wont work
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The word you're looking for is "business". The thing a company gets from a customer isn't his custom, it's his business.
With that said, I think you're right. It's just one more reason we so badly need healthy competition in the ISP market.
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Re: Re: Re: Wont work
And if the ISP doesn't give me an opportunity to resign my contract"
You could sue for their breach of contract, but you'd lose. The contract between you and the ISP would exclude activiies such as bittorent or "heavy use." So you would be kicked off because you breached that portion of the contract. If you went to court to sue your case would be kicked out because you were the breaching party.
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Re: Wont work
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Defending the indefensible
I'd really love to see it...
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Re: Defending the indefensible
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Re: Defending the indefensible
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Re: Defending the indefensible
...not likely though.
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Re: Defending the indefensible
Any treaty, once ratified, doesn't change law, but it certainly can add to it, create restrictions, or limitations.
I also think that much of this stuff is very, very, very speculative and based on leaks and other misinformation. It's about on the same level as the weekly Tom Cruise is dead rumors that circulate.
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Re: Re: Defending the indefensible
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Re: Re: Defending the indefensible
I'm sure Mike will be the first to take back his comments if the rumours turn out to be misleading. But frankly, taking into account the secrecy and the history of these corporations, that's unlikely. Call it paranoia if you want, but it's a very serious issue whichever way you look at it.
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Re: Re: Defending the indefensible
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Re: Re: Defending the indefensible
As if those aren't "changes".
What a tool.
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Too greedy
The sheeple don't even know that ACTA is happening, which is hardly surprising when they get their 'news' from the people who are behind all this. Back in the days before Bliar I would have hoped that the BBC would get on top of something like this, but these days they're in the same trough as the rest of the industry.
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ACTA law bypass.
They are in fact bypassing congress, society and maybe more.
Why deal with the pesky loud public opinion, when you can do better behind closed doors.
I just feel they will fail miserably at trying to curb this piracy thing on the internet.
People won't expend more then they already expend, and I think that even if they can scare people into not downloading anything they still lose everything, change arrived and it will be messy.
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1.) Go read my last post in response to you on the previous most recent ACTA thread, it should give you a clearer insight into my POV.
2.) Please explain the "national security issues" involved that prevented the release of the text of ACTA through a FOIA request.
3.) Please explain why industry and only industry reps, are allowed in the negotiating process, while those with opposing POVs are not.
Defend away ANONYMOUS COWARD.
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You have no idea how much I laugh when you do this. You think half the anons here are me trying to "Get" you, but I only post as myself. You dont believe it, of course, however, that doesnt mean it isnt true. Mike could verify this whenever he wants. If I was truly doing this to the extent you think I am, Mike could see the IP associated with the postings and ban me. He wont, because I'm not. Enjoy your paranoid delusions TAM, its entertaining as hell to watch you jumping around not knowing where I will "strike" (even though I have said many times its not me).
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Sure, I'll confirm that RD posts under his own name. The ACs that TAM thinks are RD have never been RD. I, of course, find this all more amusing, because TAM himself regularly used to post under many different names, including responding to himself under different names, and now suddenly he thinks that we'll ban others for doing the same? Odd.
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Sorry, you fail.
As for the ACs, well, let's just say they write like RD, the attack like RD, and they USE THE POSTING STYLE of an aggravated RD, which is sort of what is telling.
I do appreciate Mike that you continue to allow them to post, even if their posts are entirely about attacking me, and not about discussing ideas.
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Right, and we believe you (of all people) because...?
That's what I thought.
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You asked about how ACTA might effect Fair Use. The answer is "it won't" since Fair Use is a matter of federal statutory law that by definition trumps anything to the contrary contained in an executive agreement. Fair Use can only be changed by Congress, and I have seen nothing within legislative circles since it was codified in the Copyright Act of 1976 (prior to 1976 is was a doctrine created by the judiciary) suggesting that any changes are under consideration. If anything, it is clear that Congress long ago decided that the federal judiciary is best suited to deal with Fair Use issues and has deferred accordingly.
Re FOIA and "national security", EFF apparently some time ago filed a FOIA request with the USTR. Obviously the USTR took issue with some portions of the request and relied upon one of the applicable FOIA exemptions, but without a copy of the USTR's response in hand it is not possible to examine the merits of the position taken by the USTR.
The EFF site is replete with references to its request and subsequent lawsuit. Unfortunately, the site does not appear to have any links to either the USTR's initial response to the FOIA request or documents pertinent to the lawsuit (complaint, answer, motions, etc.).
I can say, however, that the term "national security" is quite broadly defined in various Executive Orders spanning many decades and is not limited to national defense matters as most might initially assume. While some may disagree it is a proper thing to do, courts typically give defference to executive judgements of this type except in a very few, particularly egregious cases.
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Two representatives from PK were given approximately an hour with a small portion of the document, and later a second hour to discuss it with a small group of people. That's not "access to the process." That's so folks like you can pretend that others are "in the process."
Re FOIA and "national security", EFF apparently some time ago filed a FOIA request with the USTR. Obviously the USTR took issue with some portions of the request and relied upon one of the applicable FOIA exemptions, but without a copy of the USTR's response in hand it is not possible to examine the merits of the position taken by the USTR.
Bullshit. Of course it is. There is nothing in discussing the copyright part of ACTA that is a national security issue and you know it.
I can say, however, that the term "national security" is quite broadly defined in various Executive Orders spanning many decades and is not limited to national defense matters as most might initially assume. While some may disagree it is a proper thing to do, courts typically give defference to executive judgements of this type except in a very few, particularly egregious cases.
Which is why it's been regularly abused, such as in this case.
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Re National Security, how you can say what you do without any of the noted information in hand eludes me. The FOIA process is much more formalized than you may believe, and a copy of both the original request and the original response to the request is important to even begin understanding the issues.
As for abuse of the term "national security", judges routinely take view contested documents in chambers...so while they may generally defer to executive judgments, they do not do so blindly.
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"Actually, at least two public interest groups independent of the industry have had access."
Please provide a cite.
"Re National Security, how you can say what you do without any of the noted information in hand eludes me."
Then why are industry lobbyists invited and not the public?
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Allowing industry lobbyists in the discussions and not the public itself is an abuse of the system. and your nonsense lies are not fooling anyone because no one believes the nonsense that the government tends to act in the best interest of the public and that they never lie. Just look at the laws in place as it stands, it's obvious that industry lobbyists lobbied for them and not the public. The laws outside the Internet are intentionally designed to favor the top one percent at public expense, and industry lobbied for this, I see no reason to believe that the industry and the government is now doing anything different.
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Of course he knows it, but intellectual property maximists are born liars. They're not very good liars but just about all they do is lie whenever it's in their best interest.
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Perhaps because your position, when analyzed IS undefensible.
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Re: Re: Trolls
You apparently have a different definition of "troll" than the rest of the English-speaking world.
Here's a hint: a person is not a troll merely because they disagree with you, ask you uncomfortable questions, or expose your illogical spin for what it is.
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Re: Re: Re: Trolls
it's just troll bait, they have no interest in the discussion, just in the argument.
I don't eat stinky troll bait.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Trolls
In other words, because you are in no position to answer a relevant question, since you have no reasonable answer, you simply call those who ask questions trolls and ignore them.
"in an attempt for me to say something they will later use to beat me over the head."
If you are able to come up with a meaningful response you shouldn't have to worry about saying something that will be refuted in a second. I take this as a tacit admission that you are unable to respond to the questions because you have no reasonable response that won't be refuted.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trolls
Again, I feel that you are attempting to bait me into an argument about personality rather than about issues, and I am having none of it. That is just stinky troll bait.
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Funny that, huh? Perhaps it wouldn't have to be speculative if it wasn't be negotiated in complete secret. Are you disputing the accuracy of said leaks? Game, Set, Match.
Go get yourself a towl and dry off....
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so
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Re: so
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Its going to be fun
Just think how many powerfull people I can get banned from the web with a bit of carless torrentling... Surly they wont kick up any fuss at all :)
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Re: Its going to be fun
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Non-issue for most, a problem for the civil disobedient. Okay, then.
Sounds fair to me.
:-)
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And on the subject of civil disobedience, only cattle follow laws and politicians blindly and without regard for morals or their own conscience. I refuse to be cattle. I refuse to be civil and obedient to an immoral govt.
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An "executive order" is not a treaty and, thus, does not enjoy the status of binding law enforceable in our federal courts.
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The media is mums on this for a good reason (they get new powers) and like all rights transfer treaties it will be a sprint to the signature. Any delay and it won't float. It will be unveiled and signed within a week. It takes the public several weeks to spread the news, before they know it, it's too late. Anyone who follows politics should know this, thats why the anti-Healthcare ads were initially just asking you to call your senator and tell them to "slow down" on reform.
slow down = don't pass..
It's a real shame Obama turned out to be utterly ineffective as a force for good, Yet he executes is political paybacks with surgical precision. His legacy will be the disparage of the masses around the world, deepening the divide between the have and have not(s). Then again, I'm under do delusion that the president is little more than a figure head.
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with the intent of provoking an angry response (a "flame") or argument over a topic the troll often has no real interest in...
I have a real interest in this topic. So not only are you incapable (not unwilling) to answer straighforward legitimate questions, you also don't know basic definitions ("troll baiting"), and ironically, YOURSELF fit the definition of what many would consider a "troll". Hypocrisy at it's finest!
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Your entire intent is to engage me in some sort of personal flame war. Sorry, I am not biting. If you want to ask questions, and they are valid questions, they get answered. When your questions are meaningless flames, they get ignored.
It doesn't matter how many user names you create or how many anonymous posts you make, the results are the same.
So please get back to debating the issues, and stop debating the people.
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http://www.techdirt.com/article.php?sid=20100127/0622237940#c501
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My favorite line from the article ....
Secondary liability will stiffle innovation as more businesses become afraid of any sort of infringememt. The same thing has happened in south Korea.
From a quote I was sent they have discussed the removal of fair use in ACTA "Copyrighted works may not be used in whole or in part with out the express consent of the copyright holder". That frightens me even more than secondary liability. The chilling effect of not being able to quote other people without consent would in effect shut down a sizable chunk of what the internet is.
Three strikes and kicking people off the internet ...
ISP's Monitoring network communications on behalf of a non governmental entity without a warrant ...
the list goes on ....
I dont see how any of this this will actually work in the long run. The internet and information route around obstacles and obstructions. It ends up being a larger game of Whack-A-Mole with more encryption used, a loss of civil liberties, escalation of penalties to make examples, and the eventual criminalization of IP infringement.
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Re: My favorite line from the article ....
Everything benefits the top 0.2% not 1% get it straight, money is only power if it's used to buy power. Just like soap (see how I just did that :-) ).
Mike, please.. lets back up a bit on the 3 strikes coverage. Thats all anyone that's not a card carrying member of the reform movement knows about ACTA.
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Re: Re: My favorite line from the article ....
Thanks. I just realized something after reading that. This will lead to secondard liabilities for individuals also. If your Wifi router is open and they accuse you of file sharing it will be your fault and you have to pay the fine-fee-penalty. Thats even if they didnt get the correct IP address.
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Re: Re: Re: My favorite line from the article ....
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Treaties
People need to read their own US Constitution.
Treaties can and will be used to usurp the Bill Of Rights.
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Re: Treaties
Each of the above are subordinate to, and must fully comply with, the US Constitution.
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@TAM: You CLAIM you "want" to "get back to" the issues, but that is exactly what I am doing. Since you refuse to answer specific, legitimate questions, it is AGAIN YOU who are "debating people" and not "debating issues". If you won't answer any questions from one specific person, that would be "debating the people", unless of course, only your definitions of "legitimate" and "debating persons" count.
It's easy to try and win when you try and control the definitions. Pitty that your hypocrisy is open for the world to see. I honestly feel sorry for you. I will never ask for nor expect a response from you in the future, and I expect the same from others. I can however only speak for myself. My final request is that your direct yourself to a dictionary, that's a book that has word definitions in it,
and look up "legitimate" "questions" "debate" and (if it is up to date) "troll". Bye =)
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Will certainly work, failing that; use a backhoe.
Until ISPs can exist without using public and private resources; ie right of way and spetrum licensing.
This quite obtuse position; "that it's their lines...flap..flap..flap" ignores that significant aspect.
Or are you implying that ISPs would blather about "free market" when customers start pulling up "their lines".
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It's not the entertainment industry, it's the government extortion industry. They do nothing to entertain us, instead they steal the work of artists and claim it as their own and benefit from the work of others without paying them.
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RD now with LESS ANONYMOUS!
Awwww poor widdle TAMmy cried wolf so much and now everyone is ganging up on him and not treating him "fairly." Boo hoo, no one cares about the feelings of a lying hypocrite corporate shill.
"it's just troll bait, they have no interest in the discussion, just in the argument."
LIAR. Flat out, liar. You are called out as the liar you are. MANY MANY people have called you out on SPECIFIC arguments, and you steadfastly dodge and ignore the issues, and go instead to either a sideline point, or attack the poster. YOU ATTACK THE POSTERS. You.
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Moreover, it is instructive to closely look at the names of those provided access under NDAs. They cover a diverse set of views.
http://www.keionline.org/node/660
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A bunch of people that agree with you does not constitute a diverse set of views.
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Hmm. Why? That's the same list we linked to a few months ago. At the bottom it explains the sort of "access" that was given to PK. Having spoken to numerous folks on that list, let's just say that "access" to seeing the document for a very short period is not the same as the kind of access given to the entertainment industry players on that list (some of whom had a hand in *writing* the documents under consideration).
Moreover, it is instructive to closely look at the names of those provided access under NDAs. They cover a diverse set of views.
Again, as I pointed out to you already (why you repeat this is a mystery to me), just because your name is on the list, it does not mean the same thing for everyone. Furthermore, it does not explain why the document remains secret.
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2. Has Bill Patry suddenly become an industry shill because he is identified on the list as associated with Google? It seems to me that companies providing search engine services have a vested interest in trying to moderate any untoward effects that might otherwise be more applicable to other types of companies. Other examples of persons/groups granted access strongly suggest that the line-up of such persons/groups is more diverse than many who comment here seem to believe.
3. Many, if not most, who are commenting here are appear to be laboring under the impression that ACTA may/will establish various substantive amendments to Title 17 of the US Code. They are mistaken.
4. US law accords rights to domestic and foreign authors alike. This is not true regarding the substantive law of many foreign countries engaged in these discussions. I do not see discussions attempting to more level the playing field as a bad thing.
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What does this have to do with who can attend the meetings?
"2. Has Bill Patry suddenly become an industry shill because he is identified on the list as associated with Google? It seems to me that companies providing search engine services have a vested interest in trying to moderate any untoward effects that might otherwise be more applicable to other types of companies. Other examples of persons/groups granted access strongly suggest that the line-up of such persons/groups is more diverse than many who comment here seem to believe."
He is interested in HIS industry, so yes, to some extent he can be said a shill. When you say other groups having access, by that you mean mostly just INDUSTRY groups, why not groups that actually represent the public like the EFF?
"3. Many, if not most, who are commenting here are appear to be laboring under the impression that ACTA may/will establish various substantive amendments to Title 17 of the US Code. "
and you know this because?
"They are mistaken."
The meetings are secret, so you don't know this and if you do you are breaking non disclosure agreements.
"4. US law accords rights to domestic and foreign authors alike. This is not true regarding the substantive law of many foreign countries engaged in these discussions. I do not see discussions attempting to more level the playing field as a bad thing."
So because our system completely sucks, we should make everyone else suck to level the playing field. Yes, that IS a bad thing.
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http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100111/2149377710.shtml
"He insisted that those who were complaining about secrecy "just don't want any agreement at all.""
(I posted my response there but I want to re post it here because I want the industry to read it).
and if it's true that the public (whom you are censoring this from) doesn't want such an agreement then why should there be an agreement? The government is supposed to serve the will of the public, not just YOUR will. and why should the public want an agreement that unfairly benefits YOU at public expense. I take this as a tacit admission that ACTA is not here to serve the will of the public, it's here to unfairly serve YOUR will at public expense. After all, if the public wants such an agreement then why the secrecy.
That's the problem with you rich thugs. You are completely uncompromising, you don't even want the public to know about the iniquities you perform. If you don't get your way 100 percent you claim that those who aren't giving you your way 100 percent are non compromising. It is YOU that are non compromising and why should the public even attempt to compromise with terrorist thugs.
and as evidence look at all the laws in place (ie: the length and dynamics of intellectual property laws, the government granted monopolies on cableco/telco infrastructure and who can build new infrastructure, the govt granted monopolies on taxi cab drivers, and the list goes on). These laws aren't a compromise, they are you bribing the government to exploit the public.
I just don't know how you can live with yourselfs knowing that you, a very tiny faction of the population, are the sole cause of a disproportionally HUGE portion of the worlds suffering and that the world would be a MUCH better place without you.
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Lies
Bullshit. Lie. You are caught out now. I, and many others, have taken you to task about how your pro-copyright stance is so far to one extreme, and why that is a bad thing, and not what the founding fathers intended. MANY TIMES. Most times, actually. To say that ALL we do is attack YOU and NEVER one thing about the ideas is not only ludicrous and absurd, its a straight out bald-faced lie. Now you are trying to manipulate the conversation to be about YOU, when really, the ideas are being discusses and YOU try to derail valid points by attacking people, or playing the victim card in an attempt to discredit the actual arguments at hand.
You sir, are a lying, deceitful troll.
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Wrong again
Absolute bullshit. These changes WILL impact the copyright statutes, categorically. They SHOULDNT, but they will. You can bet your bottom dollar of two things with this treaty:
1) If it didnt change/modify/impact copyright, they wouldnt be so hard pressed to pass it, and with so much secrecy.
2) It will be used as a lever to either get copyright changed to match it, or used to get AROUND copyright law.
Make no mistake, this is a copyright-land-grab by Big Media and the Govt.
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Re: Wrong again
Perhaps then I will be able provide more detailed remarks concerning this issue.
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