Why You Don't Want Politicians Doing Your Engineering For You
from the not-a-good-thing dept
We frequently worry (or point out the negative consequences) of technologically illiterate politicians passing laws that impact technology. It goes beyond just laws, however, into other investigations. Frank Ahrens, at the Washington Post, highlights what happens when you have technologically illiterate politicians trying to investigate the Toyota acceleration problem, highlighting a troubling exchange between Toyota's boss, Akio Toyoda, and Eleanor Holmes Norton, the Congresswoman from DC:Toyoda said that when his company gets a complaint about a mechanical problem, engineers set to work trying to duplicate the problem in their labs to find out what went wrong.But, of course, understanding how engineering and technology works doesn't get you (re-)elected. Grandstanding does.
Norton said: "Your answer -- we'll wait to see if this is duplicated -- is very troublesome." Norton asked Toyoda why his company waited until a problem recurred to try to diagnose it, which is exactly what he was not saying.
Members of Congress are generally lawyers and politicians, not engineers. But they are launching investigations and creating policies that have a direct impact on the designers and builders of incredibly complex vehicles -- there are 20,000 parts in a modern car -- so there are some basics they should understand. Chief among them: The only way to credibly figure out why something fails is to attempt to duplicate the failure under observable conditions. This is the engineering method.
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Filed Under: duplication, engineering, engineers, politicians
Companies: toyota
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Obviously
If not engineers then programmers or scientists or somebody who understands little things like LOGIC, physics, math perhaps...
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Re: Obviously
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"Apparently, you are in the lower half."
Obviously you are a woman ... or a democrat
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Well, just under half of our electorate is above average intelligence, too.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Obviously
Obviously ... GRIN
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Re: Obviously
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Re: Re: Obviously
No, you've got your history mixed up and seem to be confusing the Apollo program with the Vietnam war. Although they both occurred about the same time but they were not the same thing.
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Re: Re: Obviously
Robert McNamara ?
He graduated in 1937 from the University of California, Berkeley, with a Bachelor of Arts in economics with minors in mathematics and philosophy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara
Not what I would consider to be a whiz kid engineer.
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Re: Re: Re: Obviously
You want to elect engineers because they understand engineering. What happens when you have a medical crisis, another fiscal breakdown? Do we have to anticipate the problems on the horizons. Its obvious that these politicians don't have access to adequate advisors. But who can pass up a chance to get some face time.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Obviously
I don't want Engineers in charge because they understand engineering. I want engineers because they can think logically, have a high level of practical education, and their profession requires a highly developed skill in problem solving.
To that end there are many other professions I would prefer instead of someone who was groomed to milk money and grandstand to get more votes. Those professions that don't fit the requirements would be consulted by people who realize that they are out of their specialty and proper reasoning would be used to reach a decision.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Obviously
And again, you missed the point.
Having a physicist, scientist, law professor, economist and even an engineer fail at something (fighting a war is a bad example btw) does not prove that a politician can neglect their responsibilty to consult professionals in whatever field necessary
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Obviously
Hardly.
McNamera called the shots...
And please try to remember that.
...but these guys were his go to guys.
And who would it have been better for him to consult for advice in those respective professional fields, "psychic advisers"? I think maybe you're confusing Robert McNamera with Nancy Reagan.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Obviously
MISS CLEO!!!
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And that must stop!
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Re: Obviously
If not engineers then programmers or scientists or somebody who understands little things like LOGIC, physics, math perhaps...
Yeah, is we need any new law, it should be one that states not all politicians can be former lawyers.. Conflict of interest there, really.
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Re:
Who needs expert advice when they already know it all?
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It's a language barrier
His choice of words was not suitable for his audience. Sadly, there ARE people who are not scientists or engineers, and these things need to be explained to them.
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Re: It's a language barrier
"The only way to credibly figure out why something fails is to attempt to duplicate the failure under observable conditions."
Oh wait, someone already said that...........
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Re: It's a language barrier
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Re: Re: It's a language barrier
I expect them to consult those who do possess the required skills
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Re: It's a language barrier
If someone tells me he's "working to duplicate a problem", my brain doesn't turn into mush so that I can understand that he's "sitting on his lazy ass while the problem duplicates itself by magic".
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Re: Re: It's a language barrier
Then you're probably not be a professional politician.
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Education
Afterward, they would go home and find OTHER WORK..
Their main JOB was not, to run this country. They had experiences in OTHER THINGS..
NOW days we hire those that are Groomed from SCHOOL, to be Politicians. Which is the problem. They have NO OTHER KNOWLEDGE, except how to get money out of our pockets.
As an old saying goes..
Those SMART enough to understand Politics dont want the job, tend to be ruled by those Without the intelligence to know better.
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She was apparently so busy being "inspired to a life of social activism", and building up her "budding sense of feminism" that a basic science education was beyond her.
You see people, this is why you shouldn't elect people who are you know, dumb as a brick ideoulogues. You get what you pay for D.C. Enjoy.
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She was apparently so busy being "inspired to a life of social activism", and building up her "budding sense of feminism" that a basic science education was beyond her.
You see people, this is why you shouldn't elect people who are you know, dumb as a brick ideoulogues. You get what you pay for D.C. Enjoy.
I don't vote for half these clowns in office, and I highly suggest - more do the same. Don't listen to that 'waste your vote' rhetoric - just vote for the best person for office even if the chances are slim...
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I think too many people view politics as a kind of "game", and they just want to be a "winner". Therefore they tend to just vote for whomever already seems most likely to win so that they can be on the "winning team" and say they "won", so to speak. They don't vote their conscience because they don't have one.
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Glad you noticed my colleague's work
FWIW, I also saw his post as evidence that it's healthy for journalists to have an academic background in something besides journalism. But maybe that's just me trying to rationalize my failure to make much real-world use of an international-relations degree...
- RP
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in question why, since they had enough time call their
spouses and time enough to burn out the brakes, why
didn't they have enough time to turn the ignition key
to off? Seems to me that turning the engine off would
be the first thing on the to do list.
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Re: Re: neutral
Food for thought.
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From Consumer Reports: "First, brake hard; don’t pump them, hold them down. Then put the car in neutral. When you come to a stop, turn off the engine.
The engine may keep revving loudly while you try to stop, but don’t turn it off if you can avoid it. Turning off the engine means you lose power-assisted steering and brakes, and if you turn the key too far you could lock the steering wheel."
It is a bit of common sense, and sad to see that so many people are too dumb to think of it. Then again, maybe this mistake is a case of survival of the fittest; those who are too stupid to live, don't.
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Re: Re: Re: neutral
Okay...
and that the brake pedal is not physically, or hydraulicly, linked to the brakes,
Wait, where are you getting that?
what makes you think the gear shift is physically linked to the transmission? Or that the key is a physical (break-the-line) off switch?
And the hypothesis then is that all of those systems failed at the same moment, and furthermore that they all somehow repaired themselves afterward because later examinations showed them to be working properly.
Food for thought? Indeed, and I know what it makes me think.
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Re: neutral
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Next, unless there is a completely separate issue that I am unaware of, the specifics of the recall were these:
— The recall applies to these models: 2009-2010 RAV 4, Corolla and Matrix; 2005-2010 Avalon; 2010 Highlander; 2007-2010 Tundra; 2008-2010 Sequoia; and some 2007-2010 Camrys.
— The recall does not include any hybrids. Highlander and Camry hybrids are safe.
— No Lexus or Scion vehicles are affected by the recall.
— The recall does not apply to any cars built in Japan. You can tell if your car was built in Japan by looking at the vehicle identification number (VIN) on the driver’s side dash near the windshield; if it starts with a J, you’re safe.
— About half of the cars on the recall list are still safe because their accelerator pedals were made in two different factories. You can feel the back of your accelerator pedal to tell if your call is part of the recall. If the back of the pedal is smooth, then you are in the recall. If the back has a honeycomb pattern, you’re not in the recall.
as you can read, no mention is made of any prius, and hybrids are specifically excluded from said recall. So i am not sure that any of your points are valid.
Second --whether or not your points are valid-- I seriously question those who did not at least think of trying to shift to neutral or turning off the ignition (which I point out in what the official advise was to do) and instead made a phone call. I mean seriously it takes how long to try shifting into neutral or killing the ignition vs how long to make a phone call?
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Ah, you just put HTML tags in, never thought of that.
Next, unless there is a completely separate issue that I am unaware of, the specifics of the recall were these
There was an earlier recall that affected the Prius, but I think you're right that the brake recall doesn't affect the hybrids. It was something to do with the accelerator.
as you can read, no mention is made of any prius, and hybrids are specifically excluded from said recall. So i am not sure that any of your points are valid.
What I said is true for hybrids, but not for the cars you list (as far as I know) that all have conventional brakes. I don't know where I got the idea that the recall that was being discussed affected the Prius.
Second --whether or not your points are valid-- I seriously question those who did not at least think of trying to shift to neutral or turning off the ignition (which I point out in what the official advise was to do)
True, if you've got long enough to ring someone before crashing you could at least try it. What I was trying to say was that in a hybrid it might not work because the computer second-guessed you, but as you say that's irrelevant as it wasn't a hybrid.
Alan.
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Re: Re: neutral
No, even on the Prius with its regenerative braking there is still a backup mechanical linkage to the friction brakes.
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Health care reform anyone?
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Re: Health care reform anyone?
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Gotcha.
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Who cares?
What damage is done by someone sitting in a chair making snide remarks about the lineage of a politician compared to a politician making ill informed decisions about national policy.
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I know it's harder to hold lots and lots of people accountable for ignorance and bad behavior than a few, so let's just ignore the issue entirely and concentrate on the politicians.
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and what's wrong with that?
"If enough of them get together, which is increasingly possible with the Internet, terrible social ramifications can occur."
This is just baseless scare mongering. If anything, allowing people to get together and communicate enables us to communicate viewpoints and news that the mainstream media ignores which enables us to make better decisions. The lack of such Internet communication has lead to terrible social ramifications, look at the ridiculous intellectual property laws that have developed over the years (ie: copyright length). Look at the ridiculous laws in place in terms of cableco/telco monopolies and even the post office gets a monopoly on who can put mail in your mailbox. Look at the terrible laws in place in terms of taxi cab monopolies. These ARE terrible social ramifications that have resulted partly due to the fact that the mainstream media is corrupt, outside the Internet the government regulates communication to our detriment in a way that prevents widespread communication like the Internet does, and as a result everyone suffers due to broken laws.
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Baseless except for the fact that it is happening with increasing frequency. Bet you're glad you're not the CEO of D&H today.
"These ARE terrible social ramifications that have resulted partly due to the fact that the mainstream media is corrupt."
Sure, and you'd like to hold them accountable. You're also happy to paint them with a tremendously broad brush. But it's OK because it's "the mainstream media." It's THEM, not US. Surely WE would never do anything like that. It's THEM who should be held to higher standards.
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Translation: People are disagreeing with you with increasing frequency. This is terrible, I can't stand it. This will lead to terrible social ramifications for myself as the government starts taking away my unearned government sanctioned monopoly rents. Terrible for me, great for the public, but who cares about the public. I want my monopoly rents!!!
"Sure, and you'd like to hold them accountable. You're also happy to paint them with a tremendously broad brush. But it's OK because it's "the mainstream media." It's THEM, not US. Surely WE would never do anything like that."
and why should I trust the mainstream media or the government to know what's in the public interest better than the public? Are you seriously arguing that the public is worse at being able to determine what's in its own best interest than the mainstream media or the government? I call nonsense.
"It's THEM who should be held to higher standards."
No one is saying they should be held to different standards. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be given government sanctioned monopolies on communication (ie: cableco infrastructure). They shouldn't be given an unlevel playing field. The problem is that the government grants laws that holds them to a LOWER standard. I'm saying they should be held to the same standard as everyone else, their ideas must be able to compete on a LEVEL playing field.
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What's the matter, can't stand the fact that, with increasing frequency, the public has a voice now. That someone other than YOU has a voice. Your ideas can't compete in the free marketplace of ideas and so you want the government to pass laws that hold you to a lower standard? You're selfish, you have no regard for morality. Stop lobbying the government for unfair laws in your favor. What, can't stand the fact that you can't make the government pass unfair laws in your favor as easily? You might actually have to work for a living one day like everyone else, and compete in a FREE market, because the government won't grant you monopoly rents? You can't just be a lazy failure anymore? TOO BAD!!!!
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If there are so few people who would disagree with you then you shouldn't be so afraid of their votes.
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Ah, well, progress!
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"I know it's harder to hold lots and lots of people accountable for ignorance"
Oh yes, because you're the only NON ignorant one, right?
"and bad behavior"
Oh yes, because making snide remarks that disagree with you constitutes bad behavior.
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What, you're afraid people will vote in a way that disagrees with you? In a way that helps the PUBLIC vs just special interest groups, perhaps like yourself. Can't stand the fact that most engineers are too smart to believe that patents are helpful and that's it's only math illiterate lawyers and politicians, who know nothing about engineering, who are able to make such determinations. Give me a break.
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Oh dear, I should have known, it's our good friend Bettawreckonize. Sigh.
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- Let me guess, you would censor the internet in order to stop the "terrible social ramifications".
"it's harder to hold lots and lots of people accountable for ignorance and bad behavior"
- On what planet is this a crime, Bizarro World ?
"let's just ignore the issue entirely and concentrate on the politicians"
- That is the topic at hand afterall ...
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No, but thanks for letting us know that's the most creative solution you can come up with to the problem.
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Let me guess, you've got a degree in "political science" and think you should rule the world as a result.
Gotcha.
Back at ya.
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No, but I appreciate the hamfisted attempt to stuff straw down my shirt.
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Norton said: "Your answer -- we'll wait to see if this is duplicated -- is very troublesome.""
Perhaps the point that he was trying to make was that the first line of action should be, recall the product (and continue to sell those products that are known to work instead) and THEN look into the problem with the potentially defected product. Yes, it might be economically inefficient but perhaps we value human life more than we value economic efficiency.
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I would like to report that all automobiles have defective brakes. Please do not hesitate to recall all automobiles. Do it NOW! Do NOT wast time investigating my claim first! You can do that later.
Oh, and all airliners have defective engines, too. Ground them all, NOW!
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CORP BEING TOO NICE
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Re: CORP BEING TOO NICE
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Re: CORP BEING TOO NICE
Audi 1980s Scare
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Re: Re: CORP BEING TOO NICE
"There is nothing wrong with Toyotas, there is no "unintended acceleration" "
"they are crazy and hitting the wrong pedal"
"Like the Audi situation there is no engineering fix here (since there is no actual problem),"
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Troubleshooting
A university professor shorts circuits and produces acceleration without an error code. Please do not try this at home. Only professional lecturers should perform stunts involving jumper wires.
Problem duplication requires the use of representative defects. Replace, Toyota's "When we get a complaint, we try to duplicate the problem", with "When we get a compliant, we acquire the respective vehicle and thoroughly examine it".
Mike Masnick, Frank Ahrens and Akio are missing the point. Eleanor Holmes Norton shows no lack of technological expertice by her comments. She may be technologically adept or inept; we do not know from this rant. The problem, to which the Congresswoman correctly points, relates to process control, including the handling of inevitable defects and failure.
To become famous, one may develop famous enemies. In a rush to do so, Mike and Frank may have overlooked the meaning behind the Congresswoman's words. Akio Toyoda did not explain what happens when engineers try to duplicate a problem and the problem does not recur. Eleanor Holmes Norton's question was appropriate; too much so for Mike and Frank, who chose to wallow in a thinly veiled opine about how boys/engineers know more than girls/Congress about technology. Of course, understanding doesn't sell articles - .
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You're right. We know it from her public statements, educational backround, and choice of job as career politician. BTW, It's called a "post" or a "thread". Rant is what your self-rightous, egotistical blowhard BS posted above is. Do you see any articles for sale here smartguy?
I was able to get past that digital newsguy houdning me for my monthly fee..thank GOD. (SARCASM). You also INTENTIONALLY or just FOOLISHLY MISQUOTED HER! SHE SAID:
Norton said: "Your answer -- we'll wait to see if this is duplicated -- is very troublesome."
So the woman said that the seeing of duplication is what is troubling. If the problem doesn't reoccur, it probably isn't a problem, but that's NOT the point. There was no "meaning overlooked". The meaning is quite clear. Perhaps you sir, need to work on basic language comprehension. Take your nonesense elsewhere. We speak English here, not politco-doubletalk spin.
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Universal Data Recorders.
What one might validly ask, of course, is whether, with electronics becoming continually cheaper, it might be appropriate to install a sufficiently comprehensive recording system in every new car, rather than just in test vehicles. One has to strike a balance between information and privacy, of course. If the recorder erased its old data every five minutes, that would be long enough to get a fairly good idea of how the accident happened, but it would not be long enough to find out where the driver was going, who he was visiting, or anything like that.
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