Kodak Says Intellectual Ventures Behind Patent Lawsuit Filed By Shell Company

from the piercing-the-veil dept

Wed, Mar 17th 2010 4:20pm — Mike Masnick

Last year, Zusha Elinson broke the story that, despite Nathan Myhrvold hiding behind the claim that Intellectual Ventures hadn't sued anyone over patent infringement, IV's patents were miraculously showing up in lawsuits being filed by shell companies. Of course, IV and the shell companies have been completely silent over how this all works, so IV can pretend to be totally separate. However, multiple reports have come out claiming that IV "sells" these patents to patent attorneys, who set up shell companies with which to sue, and IV gets a cut of any money won. In other words, it's hiding behind these shell companies to pretend it's not suing, when the truth is quite different.

It seems that at least one company sued over such a patent is hitting back. Joe Mullin points us to the Legal Pad blog, which notes that Kodak, who has been sued for patent infringement by a shell company (PFI) being represented by Ray Niro (famous for, among other things, being the first person labeled a "patent troll," as well as suing a bunch of companies he didn't like with a bogus patent -- finally rejected for good, recently -- that he claimed covered any website that used a JPEG image), doesn't believe that it's really the shell company that's behind this lawsuit. It's demanding that Intellectual Ventures take part:

"Kodak should be accorded the right to sit down across the table from IV as well as PFI, so that it can inquire as to IV's intentions," Jones Day lawyers write. "It should come as no surprise that Kodak's attitude towards settlement may be affected by learning whether or not this case is the first of a series of patent litigation salvos to be launched against it by IV, whether directly or through a proxy like PFI."

IV's response, as per usual, is to play dumb: "At this point, we haven't made a decision yet. We don't know what Kodak wants or why they want us there. We don't have a say in the litigation nor do we have control over Picture Frame Innovation or the patent."
Note that this doesn't actually answer the question of whether or not IV has a financial interest in the lawsuit. Of course it doesn't have actual control over the shell company or the lawsuit. No one thinks IV is so stupid to leave a trail that direct. But that doesn't mean it didn't sell this patent with the plan of profiting from such a lawsuit. The whole thing is so *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge* it just shows off IV's total arrogance. It thinks that it's smarter than everyone else and can play the system to its (very profitable) advantage -- even if it's stifling innovation left and right.

Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.

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Filed Under: patents
Companies: intellectual ventures, kodak

59 Comments

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Quick Brown Fox, 17 Mar 2010 @ 4:29pm

Patent Trolling
How is patent trolling any different in concept from cyber squatting? Both practices seek unjust enrichment by manipulating the legal system.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Mat, 17 Sep 2010 @ 1:09pm
  
  Re: Patent Trolling
  Agreed. Excellent point.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
General Patent, 17 Mar 2010 @ 4:57pm

IP
Companies like intellectual ventures, play a paramount roll in innovation. They force other companies to work around the patent, thus inventing new things that would never have come about if they were permitted to use the ideas of the company that claimed ownership first.

Think of all the great things that have come out of software patents. Google, Windows, PhotoShop, Linux etc, etc.. If Linux were not infringing on 150+ patents belonging to Microsoft, there would be no reason for them to spend so much time innovating around them!

Take the infamous Fat32 patent, This patent pretty much covers all plug & play out of the box file formats. This results in locking Linux out of the game without infringing. But guess what? ... Thats great for consumers!! Think of all the choices they will never need to make!

Come on people!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- abc gum, 17 Mar 2010 @ 5:13pm
  
  Re: IP
  Bravo.
  Sarcasm at its best.
  How could you type that and keep a straight face.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Ronald J Riley (profile), 17 Mar 2010 @ 6:40pm
  
  Re: IP
  I have every reason to believe General Patent is a reputable company. Posting using their name is sleazy, even by TechDIRT standards. It is one thing to be nasty and quite another to make false posts in someone's name.
  
  Ronald J. Riley,
  
  I am speaking only on my own behalf.
  Affiliations:
  President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
  Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
  Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
  President - Alliance for American Innovation
  Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
  Washington, DC
  Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2010 @ 6:44pm
    
    Re: Re: IP
    Sleaze pot, meet dead guy kettle.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - abc gum, 17 Mar 2010 @ 7:06pm
    
    Re: Re: IP
    "It is one thing to be nasty and quite another to make false posts in someone's name."
    
    Ummm ... Heh ... you can't be serious.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Ronald J Riley (profile), 17 Mar 2010 @ 7:25pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: IP
      Yes, I am serious. Mike Masnick, how would you react if people started posting with our name or one of your company names? Do we have some common ground on this issue?
      
      Ronald J. Riley,
      
      I am speaking only on my own behalf.
      Affiliations:
      President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
      Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
      Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
      President - Alliance for American Innovation
      Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
      Washington, DC
      Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Tech Dirt aka Mike Masnick, 17 Mar 2010 @ 7:53pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: IP
        Common ground?
        
        I think "common ground" means that each side moves from where they were towards a common position somewhere between the two positions ... but your personal interpretation may vary.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Ronald J Riley (profile), 18 Mar 2010 @ 3:38am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IP
        Common ground can mean that people agree on one issue while continuing to disagree on another.
        
        Ronald J. Riley,
        
        I am speaking only on my own behalf.
        Affiliations:
        President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
        Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
        Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
        President - Alliance for American Innovation
        Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
        Washington, DC
        Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2010 @ 8:24pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: IP
        I think we've found that moron in a hurry everyone always takes about.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Richa, 17 Mar 2010 @ 8:27pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: IP
        Maybe he/she was making a play on words, (General George S. Patton) not referring to a company named General Patent Corporation (GPC)?
        
        I'm just saying.. (Only on my own behalf, of course)
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Ronald J Riley, 17 Mar 2010 @ 10:13pm
    
    Re: Re: IP
    I have every reason to believe Ronald J Riley is a silly person. Posting using a dead guy's name is sleazy, even by Ronald R Ugly standards. It is one thing to be nasty and quite another to make false posts in someone's name.
    
    Ronald J. Riley,
    
    I am speaking only on my own behalf.
    Affiliations:
    President - www.ScamU.org - RJR at ScamU.org
    Executive Director - www.IgnoranceEd.org - RJR at IgnEd.org
    Senior Fellow - www.PatentTrolls.org
    President - Alliance for American Stagnation
    Caretaker of Intellectual Property Hoarders on behalf of Zombielands and its Zombies.
    Fantasy World, RJR
    Direct (810) 555-0194 / (202) 555-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - David, 12 May 2010 @ 1:47pm
    
    Re: Re: IP
    Is there a reason you keep misspelling Techdirt’s name as ‘TechDIRT [sic]’? Are you aware of how it makes you look (like an idiotic fool who cannot be bothered to look at the title of the page just to see how the name is spelled)?
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- BearGriz72 (profile), 17 Mar 2010 @ 10:44pm
  
  Re: IP
  Intellectual Vultures Strikes Again...
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
abc gum, 17 Mar 2010 @ 5:21pm

Hey, ya wanna buy a bull?
I do not understand ... how is this not illegal? Wth is the justice dept doing, sitting on their thumbs?

This obvious gaming of the system can no longer be overlooked. This is tantamount to organized crime. Instead of some greaseball with a broken nose busting your kneecap, it is a high priced lawyer in an Armani suit dragging your ass to East Texas.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2010 @ 5:38pm

Reply from BigBoys
Kodak has been suing companies, so they should expect those they sued to reply. See: Can't Innovate? Litigate! Kodak Goes After Apple, RIM For Patent Infringement In Both Courts And ITC - http://techdirt.com/articles/20100114/1233017760.shtml
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- abc gum, 17 Mar 2010 @ 6:00pm
  
  Re: Reply from BigBoys
  Oh - ok, since you put it that way. It's ok then ... Not.
  
  It has to stop sometime, otherwise they will take us all down with them - and I will not be too happy with that, neither will many others.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2010 @ 7:08pm
    
    Re: Re: Reply from BigBoys
    In the world we live, suing has replaced kicking someone’s ass you simpleton, Expect Retribution. If you're going after mine, I’m going after yours. Lawyer’s paydays and billions are at stake...welcome to hell!
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - abc gum, 17 Mar 2010 @ 7:20pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: Reply from BigBoys
      Oh, yes. That's the way to react.
      
      Yeah
      
      Never mind that it is destroying everything you worked hard for ... the most important thing is to get revenge !
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2010 @ 10:05pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Reply from BigBoys
        That’s the way things are, that’s reality. If you can change it, GO FOR IT. It’s obvious you're delusional, no more.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ronald J Riley (profile), 17 Mar 2010 @ 6:26pm

I am not a fan of IV because I think that their dealings with inventors leave much to be desired.

But I must disagree with claims that their enforcing their patent rights is wrong, because they are perfectly justified in defending their patent property rights.

There are good reasons to conduct enforcement actions from a unique entity for each case. They are the same reasons that people create corporations for any business, in that it compartmentalizes liability.

Kodak is also perfectly justified in enforcing their patent rights.

Every reader of TechDIRT derives income from some source. Some are wage slaves and others may be in their own business. In every case you expect some sort of compensation for what you do. Inventors also must have compensation in order to support their business of inventing.

The only difference between the invention business and others is the amount of risk and a much larger payout when one succeeds. In the end, every business regardless of the time frames and risk factors must payoff or it will fail.

Big companies also take risks, like intentionally infringing smaller entities patents hoping that those entities will not be able to afford to hold them accountable. Those who take this risk deserve what they are getting.

Ronald J. Riley,

I am speaking only on my own behalf.
Affiliations:
President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
President - Alliance for American Innovation
Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
Washington, DC
Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- abc gum, 17 Mar 2010 @ 7:01pm
  
  Re:
  Oh please.
  
  You dismiss the outrageous actions of IV (only) because they treat the "inventors" poorly ... and then you defend their actions because they are "enforcing their patent rights"
  
  You sir, are are full of it.
  
  Seriously ... do you think this sort of business environment is sustainable? If so, please include your rational for thinking so, because I really do not see it.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Ronald J Riley (profile), 17 Mar 2010 @ 7:20pm
    
    It is sustainable
    The point of the patent system is to encourage others to invent their own solution in order to avoid having to pay another inventor. This works very well.
    
    If you remove patent protection and enforcement all inventions will be pilfered and America will not be able to sustain our standard of living.
    
    Ronald J. Riley,
    
    I am speaking only on my own behalf.
    Affiliations:
    President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
    Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
    Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
    President - Alliance for American Innovation
    Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
    Washington, DC
    Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - abc gum, 17 Mar 2010 @ 7:28pm
      
      Re: It is sustainable
      I asked for rational which supports your belief that this business environment is sustainable.
      
      Seriously, do you not see the inevitable end to which this will come?
      
      Short sightedness kicks your ass everytime ... believe me ... I would know.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2010 @ 8:25pm
      
      Re: It is sustainable
      "The point of the patent system is to encourage others to invent their own solution in order to avoid having to pay another inventor. This works very well."
      
      Actually, no, that isn't the point. Feel free to keep showing your blatant ignorance, though.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2010 @ 9:34pm
      
      Re: It is sustainable
      If you remove patent protection and enforcement all inventions will be pilfered and America will not be able to sustain our standard of living.
      
      Wouldn't America just do the same as everybody else?
      
      "America?!? Never! America would never do anything like that, ever, not America! If patents were demolished tomorrow and it were a free-for-all, why America would just sit there not doing a thing. America certainly wouldn't join in the free-for-all. It's just not in America's nature. They would probably pout."
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- BearGriz72 (profile), 17 Mar 2010 @ 11:30pm
  
  Re: (RJR)
  From http://www.piausa.org
  "Conserving the American Patent System is the only way to preserve our technological and economic future!
  (This is not alarmist, this is serious and it is true!)"
  *** Actually that is 'Patently' untrue, as Mike and others have have pointed out on multiple occasions many economic models thrive without using patents.
  
  From http://www.inventored.org
  *** Other than the fact that this site appears to have been designed sometime in the early 1990's (Although the other two were not much better). I did not notice any blatant misinformation I did notice this...
  "Page last revised 10-10-2008"
  
  From http://www.patentpolicy.org
  "Many experts contend that the United States Patent and Trademark Office is the cornerstone to the U.S. economy."
  *** Many experts contend the exact opposite as well, evidence please.
  "The USPTO's ability to prosecute and track new invention is one of the most significant dimensions of U.S. competitiveness around the world."
  *** Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha
  
  If you choose to be a Troll/Shill Please at least do so with some respect for our intelligence, and quit spamming us with your ridiculous signature.
  [/rant]
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Ronald J Riley (profile), 18 Mar 2010 @ 3:15am
    
    Re: Re: (RJR)
    "If you choose to be a Troll/Shill Please at least do so with some respect for our intelligence,"
    
    What intelligence?
    
    How about you sign what you write or are you too ashamed to sign your name and if by some remote chance you have any relevant affiliations you disclose them:)
    
    Ronald J. Riley,
    
    I am speaking only on my own behalf.
    Affiliations:
    President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
    Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
    Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
    President - Alliance for American Innovation
    Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
    Washington, DC
    Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Ronald J Riley (profile), 18 Mar 2010 @ 3:31am
    
    Re: Re: (RJR)
    We are in the process of converting InventorEd to Drupal at this time. InventorEd services people all over the world, many of whom are using older computers and may be on dialup or radio link communications (outback) which are costly. So InventorEd was intentionally designed for low bandwidth. And yes, it was designed starting in the 1990s and has been through two major updates. It was created in raw html initially and then maintained with Front Page because doing so was easy. And yes, I do realize that Front Page produces crappy code but with over 700 web pages on the site expediency trumped the code issue.
    
    PIAUSA serves as an example of how open source can be a very poor value. It is based on EZ Publish, an atrocious piece of bloated crap. We paid for commercial use and I have to say that it never delivered on the claims. When we are finished with InventorEd we will also be converting PIAUSA to Drupal.
    
    I have nothing against open source except for the fact that much of it is worth exactly what people pay and the entitlement mentality of those in the community who think that they should be able to pilfer others intellectual property to use as a loss leader to generate consulting fees.
    
    Ronald J. Riley,
    
    I am speaking only on my own behalf.
    Affiliations:
    President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
    Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
    Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
    President - Alliance for American Innovation
    Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
    Washington, DC
    Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Richard Corsale, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:52pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: (RJR)
      LOL Drupal is open source... wow....
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
zoobab, 18 Mar 2010 @ 3:39am

ProxyTrolls
It's like the mafia, just do the dirt job by others!:

http://www.digitalmajority.org/forum/t-3976/a-new-race-of-patent-trolls:the-proxytrolls
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Ronald J Riley (profile), 23 Mar 2010 @ 8:39am
  
  Digital Majority???
  The name reminds me of how a small minority called themselves the Moral majority when in fact they were the Immoral Minority.
  
  Also, the referenced link has pretty poor quality, both the writing and content.
  
  Ronald J. Riley,
  
  I am speaking only on my own behalf.
  Affiliations:
  President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
  Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
  Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
  President - Alliance for American Innovation
  Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
  Washington, DC
  Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 23 Mar 2010 @ 10:12pm
    
    Re: Digital Majority???
    "Also, the referenced link has pretty poor quality, both the writing and content."
    
    The irony here is awesome.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 18 Mar 2010 @ 7:37am

The thing is that we need laws and standards to prevent patent abuse, one good standard being that patents should only apply from the moment a product is released to the first who actually releases a product.

There was a whole discussion about that here

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100316/1732228591.shtml?threaded=true

and I just responded to someones counterclaims, thought people might be interested. See post Mar 18th, 2010 @ 7:20am
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Robert M. Case (profile), 27 Mar 2010 @ 7:50am

Patent Debate
Ronald J. Riley is correct in my opinion in nearly every statement above. Just check Wikipedia's listing for "patent" and learn. Hiding behind anonymous posting is the bane of the internet ... if you feel strongly about something, don't be afraid to stand up for it, as Mr. Riley does. It's a shame that every generation has to re-invent the wheel ... the open source community's denouncing of patents is simply a way of hiding one's head in the sand and not checking the prior art (which is getting easier to do every year.) That's not to say there are not abuses in the worldwide patent system, but I give credit to Mr. Riley for speaking up in this forum.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
the flame of the spark, 3 Sep 2010 @ 3:30pm

Comment
It's a very good and informative article. I like it very much
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
speak gently, 23 Sep 2010 @ 5:29pm

coment
intelectual venture are der.the corporates have certain expectations.mainly business oriented expectations.so the patent must not be allowed.as this article says it is legel but it must not be allowed
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
speak gently, 23 Sep 2010 @ 5:30pm

coment
intelectual venture are der.the corporates have certain expectations.mainly business oriented expectations.so the patent must not be allowed.as this article says it is legel but it must not be allowed
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
some paradise place, 5 Oct 2010 @ 12:14am

Is there a reason you keep misspelling Techdirt’s name as ‘TechDIRT [sic]’? Are you aware of how it makes you look (like an idiotic fool who cannot be bothered to look at the title of the page just to see how the name is spelled)?
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toy watch
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willbates (profile), 12 Nov 2010 @ 2:49am

Ownership too
It is really interesting when you start looking into shell companies, especially with regards to who they own and who owns them. It is often very difficult to track, clearly things to hide!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
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Night Vision, 18 Jan 2011 @ 12:33pm

Night Vision
Hiding behind shell corporations is a good way to protect yourself in a lot of ways, but the way IV is playing dumb and avoiding the reasonable request from Kodak to have a discussion with them shows they have no interest in encouraging technology. Night Vision Rifle Scopes
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
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phildickamore (profile), 13 Dec 2012 @ 1:08pm

Typical...
Its typical that one party is "playing dumb." I think because they are trying to avoid the reality of it that they are the party in the wrong. I agree and it looks like IV was up to something scamming and dishonest.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Eric Saunders, 12 Mar 2013 @ 1:37pm

Shell Company Patents
Does anyone even know how many patents that the shell company owns?
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