Teens Face Felony Charges Over Girl Who Committed Suicide
from the lori-drew-redux? dept
In a case that at least brings to mind the Lori Drew lawsuit, prosecutors in Western Massachusetts have figured out how to charge nine teenagers over the suicide death of a fellow student. Like the Drew case, there's an emotional issue here: which is that the bullying and the suicide are horrible stories, and it's a situation where certainly people have a natural inclination to want to punish someone. But it's a lot trickier than that. Punishing people because someone commits suicide sets a really dangerous precedent that could encourage more kids to commit suicide -- thinking that it will get their tormentors "punished." Now, there may actually be much more to this case -- and some of the charges at least suggest there's a possibility of additional activities, such as statutory rape, that happened with some of the teens. However, all of the news reports seem to focus on the fact that these charges were brought because of the suicide.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: crime, massachusetts
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I think your concerns are overblown...
I speak from some experience because I myself was tormented as a child in school. While my friends and I certainly felt vindictive at times we never considered any extremes that could directly harm ourselves. No I think more than likely we will see more strong violent aggression against bullies than harming themselves.
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Re: I think your concerns are overblown...
I can share anecdotal evidence to the opposite. People who are suicidal are making emotional decisions, and logically it may make sense to them anyway ("it's the only way to end the pain"). Creating an impact on people is one of the desired effects, regardless if they aren't around.
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Re: I think your concerns are overblown...
I don't think we should condone behavior that contributes to someone committing suicide, but criminalizing people being jerks is probably not a reasonable solution. It is too hard to define being a jerk. If taste defines it, it should not be handled by the court system.
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Re: Re: I think your concerns are overblown...
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Re: I think your concerns are overblown...
The root cause is adolescence, good luck fixing that.
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Re: I think your concerns are overblown...
been there still have the ragged t-shirt framed and hanging on the wall as a sign of courage that I made it through.
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Re: I think your concerns are overblown...
I'm sorry, did "nose" and "face" suddenly fall out of fashion?
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Re: I think your concerns are overblown...
Of course, this is not how it happens. That note is never read (or tape never played), that blog entry is pulled down, or whatever. Even in the cases where the press picks it up and plays it over and over and over again...for two weeks...and then it fades into oblivion.
The anguished teen does not see beyond the immediate and emotional impact of this fantasy. If they did, they would not consider suicide as a means to martyrdom. However, unfortunately, there are enough who cannot see beyond that wall of rage and potential flash of "genius".
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Still, as you point out with the statutory rape charge, there is certainly something more going on than mere online bullying.
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Re:
If I had a dollar for every time I heard a similar phrase used in a teen suicide scenario. If she was raped, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish and that should be dealt with as a bonifide felony case. But to get a whole group of people in serious trouble because of anything they did online (short of ripping off a bank or what have you) smacks of the kind of voodoo politics you get with stuff like "hate speech". That's a slippery slope my friend.
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But no one's trying to blame them.
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Though reading through the NYT article, I can't help thinking we're barking up the wrong tree here. What I want to know is why it took a fifteen year-old girl hanging herself before anyone bothered to notice this was going on?
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Re:
Bingo. The teens involved are most probably not "innocent" (especially if the rape bit is true), but I want to know where the "responsible" adults were in this situation, and why they're not being held responsible.
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Re:
I was bullied when I was younger.All the teachers knew as well as the principal but they did nothing to deal with it. Fortunately,some of the bullies moved away because they kept failing one got juvenile life for murder of the other bully,which was his supposedly friend.
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That would be a concern if they when serous punishment for such extreme cyber-bullying before the victim saw suicide as an 'option'.
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Re: Cyber(?!) Bullying
This was not virtual sex that occurred with the two young men.
A can of red bull to the head does not leave an online bruise or cut.
So help me understand why this is all about cyber-bullying?
Is that what *extreme* cyber-bullying is - when it spills over to real-life?
Or is it the other way around - plain old real world bullying and violence spills over into twitter and facebook because everything a 16 year old does spills over into twitter and facebook?
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Sue the school
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Re: Sue the school
I hope the school district gets sued into receivership. Towns and school boards are responsible for the people they hire.
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Re: Sue the school
It does seem that the school administrators didn't take many of the actions conducted at school seriously enough.
However, it sounds like much of the bullying was conducted away from school, which is a matter for law enforcement. While "bullying" isn't illegal, harrasement is and it can be enforced by the legal code.
There were lots of failures here, not the least of which was the failure of this girl and her parents to learn how to cope in the face of destructive outside influences.
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Re: Sue the school
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Re: Re: Sue the school
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Re: Sue the school
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Statutory Rape does not mean non-consensual Rape
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Re: Statutory Rape does not mean non-consensual Rape
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Re: Re: Statutory Rape does not mean non-consensual Rape
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Re: Re: Re: Statutory Rape does not mean non-consensual Rape
The charges against the guy are in legal terms, so your pathetic defense for the act (18 year old guy and 15 year old girl we are talking about here) is not applicable.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Statutory Rape does not mean non-consensual Rape
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A different way of looking at it
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Re: A different way of looking at it
This case is a clear-cut case of systematic harassment that was overlooked by everyone with authority.
The extent of this case is WAY beyond what ever happened in the Lori Drew case. This is more of a case of abuse then just being harassed.
Prison is too good for the people involved in this.
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Re: A different way of looking at it
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Re: Re: A different way of looking at it
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Re:
There is one thing that we could teach in schools that may instill respect in fellow men. The constitution and the bill of rights. The positive side of this is that it doesn't just say that "you shall not", it says that other people have the right to a happy life. That needs to be enforced in public schools.
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Re:
As a Human, I don't need a list of things that cause harm.
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Religious Bullies
Think about this, it was not that long ago that pious bible thumpers would lynch a black person on Saturday night and go to church on Sunday. In fact, they are still doing this to gays.
Ronald J. Riley,
I am speaking only on my own behalf.
Affiliations:
President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
President - Alliance for American Innovation
Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
Washington, DC
Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
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increased suicides?
It's not that I agree with those prosecutions, but I think that's a big stretch, Mike. Also it seems conflicting to say on one hand that bullies aren't really responsible for suicides, then on the other hand claim that some legal policy can cause suicides.
If you believe that generally suicide is a result or symptom of clinical depression or some other mental illness, that should apply to both situations.
Nevertheless I think the bullies ought to be charged with some sort of assault & harassment (in addition to whatever rape charges apply), and should be punished. But not necessarily held responsible for the suicide. Although I could see some kind of "felony murder" charge applying to a similar case one day. Felony murder is generally charged when someone inadvertently dies as the result of someone's committing a felony.
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Re: increased suicides?
I don't think the teens should get off either -- I think there's definitely real-world harrassment and assault charges here -- but I think there's a real danger with linking their punishment with the girl's decission to commit suicide. Her behavior isn't the kind we want to promote.
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The Other Side
Punishing people because someone commits suicide can cause people to think twice about tormenting others to the point of suicide; because punishment awaits the tormentors of people who kill themselves.
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Re: The Other Side
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It's not cyber bullying when someone gets raped or beaten, which I think is what the charges are.
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Re:
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Re:
Uh, I never said it was cyberbullying.
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Charging the wrong people?
"It was particularly alarming, the district attorney said, that some teachers, administrators and other staff members at the school were aware of the harassment but did not stop it. “The actions or inactions of some adults at the school were troublesome,” Ms. Scheibel said, but did not violate any laws."
Um, what? If adults, responsible for supervision and child safety, knew this was going on and did nothing, how is that legal?
Further, how do those "educators" still have a job?
It's entirely possible some of the teens charged deserve to be, but the people who oversaw this should be subject to discipline of some form.
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Re: Charging the wrong people?
The district attorney is just saying that the school administrators didn't commit any criminal offense, for which it is the district attorney's job to press charges.
That doesn't mean that the school couldn't be held liable in a lawsuit in civil court, just that it isn't the DA's job to deal with that, only to figure out if they're guilty of a criminal offense.
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Re: Re: Charging the wrong people?
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Sad
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Punishment
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Re: Punishment
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Re: Re: Punishment
exactly, it is fear of consequences that that keeps most people, especially children who don't yet know how to live in society, in line.
kids in public schools behave more like packs of wild dogs than human beings, similarly if doing something causes them pain they will stop doing it eventually.
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Re: Re: Re: Punishment
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Re: Punishment
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columbine
~sympathy for the devil
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Sad but totally preventable...
I was horribly tormented as a child about everything from my height, my looks, my accent and even my religion... I struggled with depression and thoughts of suicide.
But I had a strong family relationship and that helped me to steer away from drastic action. Where are the families? Where are the parents? Take some responsibility parents and get involved in your children's lives.... it might save them!
Pjerky - You are completely wrong. Most people - and I have talked to MANY - who are in those situations get to a point where they want it to go away... hence, the thoughts of suicide... Mike is right in saying that this is just the icying on the cake. If they can make it go away by committing suicide (their rationale at the time) AND there's a possibility that their tormenters may suffer... it makes it even more enticing.
interval - Just because you think and act one way, doesn't mean the rest of the world thinks and acts the exact same way. You might be able to ignore words, sure.... given your upbringing, you choices... that's where you've come out. Different people have made different choices... who knows, unlike you, they might actually have developed empathy for fellow sentient beings.
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you no what its like to have ppl in school abuse you every day , day after day week after week into months on ending ?
because of what my last name spelled not what it meant i was a victim of those nasty ppl
i quit school because of them and the teachers were happy i quit
im sure they would have been in overjoyed if committed suicide and maby i should have as my life has been nothing but crap
all i can say is i hope we get draconian laws on bullying
weather online or in real life its about time someone said you know i dont care that these kids are kids they all participated in driving this poor girl to do the most drastic thing
at least she didnt do a comlumbine where you blame those boys for the same damn thing , when it was the bullies that drove them too it !!
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Re:
Yes.
"at least she didnt do a comlumbine where you blame those boys for the same damn thing , when it was the bullies that drove them too it !!"
Please, please remove your reproductive organs now. You should not reproduce.
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Eunuchs ??
I would argue that Chronno S. Trigger and the boys should be turned in Eunuchs.
Bullying is a huge problem and school administrators have a long history of not dealing with the problem. When a victim goes berserk and kills or some poor soul commits suicide those same administrators are quick to blame the child.
Some people have been known to say that "Those who can do and those who cannot teach." While this is true of some teachers is is unfair to those who teach because they love to learn and to see others learn. My version of this is "Those who cannot teach become coaches and administrators."
I am a big believer in a universal public education but I am also profoundly disappointed with our public schools.
In the end blame for the problem lies at the feet of incompetent and uncaring administrators. It is their fault that this situation was allowed to escalate to this point.
They and the school should be sued for this. The parents of the kids who persecuted the girl should be sued. The boys who used her should be turned in Eunuchs to ensure that they do not prey on other young ladies [ok maybe that is too extreme, but she is dead and all the perpetrators should be beat within an inch of their lives :)]
Ronald J. Riley,
I am speaking only on my own behalf.
Affiliations:
President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
President - Alliance for American Innovation
Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
Washington, DC
Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
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Re:
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Dealing with bullies
When I and my parents complained to the principle she said that boys would be boys and I would have to take my lumps like the rest.
In sixth grade I decided I had had enough. By then I was really into science and I took a squirt-gun to school with diluted ammonia. When the bully and his support group stopped me on the way home from school I told him he better leave me alone or he would be sorry.
He shoved me and I squired him in the eyes, kneed him in the most appropriate location and after knocking him down I spent some time jumping on the sob's chest.
The next day the principle called my parents and I in to discuss expelling me. My parents explained that boys will be boys and they would sue the school if they expelled me.
While from time to time some dim wad would threaten me no one dared to lay a hand on me from then on.
From that day on I was defending other kids who were bullied and the bullies knew that I would fix their wagons if they took me on.
That turned out to be great training for becoming an inventor, because big companies are bullies just like we had in school and just like school most people rationalize that the bullies would be allowed free reign.
It is kind of neat that I am doing the same kind of work today which I did then, adjusting bullies attitudes, except today on a much larger playground.
For one reason or another many kids march to a different drummer. They have a right to a good education free of being abused by the knuckleheads.
Ronald J. Riley,
I am speaking only on my own behalf.
Affiliations:
President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
President - Alliance for American Innovation
Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
Washington, DC
Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
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Re:
You should have stayed in school.
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Staying in school.
Based on the posters writing I wonder if they are ADD, Dyslexic, Asperger or suffer from some other affliction.
Our brains are complex and different parts do not communicate well with each other. We see a large percentage of these issues in the inventor community.
I have long suspected that some of our brains are wired differently and that is a big factor in the left handed approach which leads to inventors finding new and unexpected solutions to problems.
This also plays a role in people being loners and the fact that they often simply do not fit well in society. Yet it is a fact that these people often go on to produce great things. They are a valuable resource and they need to be protected from majority dictatorships.
Phoebe Prince probably fit this profile and it was the schools responsibility to have protected her. They didn't and now she is dead. That is BS of the worst kind.
Ronald J. Riley,
I am speaking only on my own behalf.
Affiliations:
President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
President - Alliance for American Innovation
Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
Washington, DC
Direct (810) 597-0194 / (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
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Re:
Yes, and I still hold that her decision to kill herself was a poor choice and shouldn't be condoned or encouraged.
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Re:
Did anybody at all blame her?
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Phoebe Prince, Age 15
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Hmmmmm
Everyone is a bully at one time or another. EVERYONE. There isnt a person on Earth who hasnt made fun of someone at one time or another. That being said, if these kids went above and beyond to harass her, they should be punished for it. Maybe not with felony charges, but something.
Also, I dont understand the statutory rape charges. Are they saying that they found out someone had sex with her?
Imagine a girl commits suicide, and she is underage. Police go out and find all the boys she has slept with, and arrests them for statutory. Anyone see something wrong here?
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Re: Hmmmmm
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Re: Re: Hmmmmm
No. You are wrong and it appears that you are doing it on purpose. Quite disgusting.
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Re: Re: Re: Hmmmmm
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But this is pretty common, generally. You can get someone who has rifles and is crazily threatening the people at his old workplace, and often they don't get around to doing anything about it until the bodies start hitting the floor.
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I'm a teacher, and it really is a different reality out there in the schools these days. It is not the same as it was 15 or 20 years ago.
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The REAL Issue
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The REAL Issue
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The REAL Issue
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black people
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black people
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The REALr Issue
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.......
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black people
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The REALr Issue
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really
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it happens
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Re:
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Re: Re: nigga you racist!
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cyber bullying...
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THROW THEM IN JAIL!!!!!
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Fools
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