Smart: Graduating As Valedictorian Of An Ivy League School; Not Smart: Plagiarizing Part Of Your Speech From A Famous Comedian
from the did-he-think-no-one-would-notice dept
As a bunch of folks have been sending in, it appears that the valedictorian of Columbia University's General Studies program, Brian Corman, thought that no one would notice if he copied -- verbatim -- a joke from popular comedian Patton Oswalt. First, here's Oswalt's joke in two parts:It has come to our attention that a portion of our Valedictorian's remarks at this year's School of General Studies Class Day was taken from a comedy routine by Patton Oswalt. As an institution of higher learning that places a core value on respect for the works of others, we were surprised and disappointed to have learned of this matter today. Columbia University and the School of General Studies do not condone or permit the use of someone else's work without proper citation. The student speaker has appropriately issued an apology to his classmates and to Mr. Oswalt for failing to provide such attribution.Oswalt, for his part, wrote on his own site that while the kid apologized, he wonders about what sort of valedictorian would copy in such a manner:
Brian Corman apologized to me. Flat-out admitted his thievery, his stupidity. Owned it all. Good man. Still makes me wonder what he might have done to become valedictorian -- I mean, if he's willing to steal material for something as inconsequential as a speech, how rubbery did his boundaries become when his GPA and future career were on the line? Oh well.Quite a story all around, and it raises a bunch of different points that we'll hit in bullet form:
- Joke copying: This is a popular topic that we've discussed a few times in the past. While it certainly does piss off comedians, they seem to ignore the fact that it's not just quite common among comedians, but, historically, it was considered quite normal. That's because people realized that there is no monopoly on being funny -- and that it's usually the timing and the delivery that matter much more than the joke itself (which can be seen in the clips above -- where Oswalt's version comes off much funnier than Corman's copy).
- Social mores: But, more importantly, it's the social cost to copying that keeps this from getting too far out of line. In the comic world, comedians who have a reputation as big time joke copiers tend to get shunned. That's not to say that many haven't been successful still, but there is an effort within the community to self police, without any sort of legal regime needed.
- Reputation: Related to that, what this really comes down to is a reputational issue. While Oswalt is wrong to call Corman's actions "stealing," he's right to question the kid's decision, and raise questions about his reputation. For a long time, now, Corman will be tagged as the guy who didn't have the good sense to (a) know that it's inappropriate to copy someone else's work in a valedictiorian speech (b) realize that people would notice and (c) to realize that it would get a lot of attention, including a condemnation from the original comedian in the first place.
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Filed Under: brian corman, columbia university, jokes, patton oswalt, plagiarism, valedictorian
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What?
I appreciate the need for citation and attribution in academic work, but for a valedictorian speech? I don't think it's going to be cited in any research papers. (Well, now it might show up in some sociological paper, but that's besides the point.)
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Re: What?
Indeed. The problem here was that he claimed the situation actually happened to him. If he were just telling a joke, it might not be that big a deal. But the social mores say you don't tell a story about something that happened to you -- especially in an academic setting -- if they didn't actually happen to you.
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Re: Re: What?
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Re: Re: What?
Yeah, I can see that being a point of objection.
I read it more like a 'roast' of a particular professor than something that actually happened. Since I'm an old skool geek and saw that punchline coming a mile away I figured it was in jest. But I can see someone taking it seriously. Still, overreact much?
(Also, if Kirk ordered Spock to fire the phasers, there would be a damn good reason for it, and Spock would do it. The premise of the punchline is flawed. /geekout)
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Re: Re: What?
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The School Takes a Hit?
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Re: The School Takes a Hit?
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Re: Re: The School Takes a Hit?
My concern is that he clearly thought he could get away with plagiarism to a large group of people, so what did he do when the audience was just one professor?
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Re: The School Takes a Hit?
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joke copying
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It's plagiarism
That's the issue here. It's wrong, and everyone knows it. I also believe there are more young people these days who think (or are told) that cheating is O.K. "as long as you don't get caught."
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And to those who say "Repeating jokes, that's just how things are with ordinary people," Yes. That is how things are. However, you can easily preface it with "There's this great joke by So and So..." segue in, and you're golden.
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to me, while i generally do like Oswalt's routines, i think he was being a dick. its just a freaking joke for crying out loud.
if you are that worried about, put it behind a paywall. ;)
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Everybody Loves Patton
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=67077201&blogId= 533643624
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=67077201&blogId= 533681759
The earlier situation was worse, since the guy got paid to do stand-up.
(I am, incidentally, using the phrase "ripping off" in a colloquial sense, not a legal one.)
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GS IS Not a Separate or Distinct Program
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Re: GS IS Not a Separate or Distinct Program
I'm not clear why so many people are so hazy on here about what plagiarism is. He passed material off as his own. Corman plagiarized from Patton Oswalt. It's not complicated.
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for the uninformed - Milton Berle became well known for stealing jokes from other comedians. ...
Matt Damon tells a joke to Robin Williams about a captian of an airplane. After the joke Robin asks " have you ever been on a plane?" Matt answers..... NO but it makes the joke better to tell it in the first person. (GET IT?? A JOKE!)
The kid is not a public speaker and worked very hard to give a speach that would be entertaining.
This is what's wrong with the world. EVERYBODY feels the need for compensation for even the most TRIVIAL thoughts.
IP and copyright laws ARE crippling EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE.
If we allow these "laws" to expand to absurdity WEBSTERS DICTIONARY will sue every author and the family of SAMUEL MORSE will own EVERY computer company AND the INTERNET since it is all based on 1's and 0's (dots and dashes)
point 2: If the kid wanted to steal a joke he should have swiped THE ARISTORCRATS.....
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Re: for the uninformed - Milton Berle became well known for stealing jokes from other comedians. ...
However... the problem I have is that he passed off the anecdote/experience as his own. The story he told did not happen to him in a class at Columbia. Was there not an appropriate story that he could tell that actually happened to him?
In my view, he unintentionally diminished the quality of his education by feeling the need to use a "borrowed" (used lightly) story... rather than an anecdote from his own experience. This is where I feel an infraction of some kind occurred. Whether or not it is plagiarism, it is clearly dishonest. And, that lack of integrity is unfortunate and causes others (sadly and possibly /possibly not) to question the quality of a Columbia education. For those reasons, I feel his decision was indeed a big deal... and quite problematic. It hurts not only himself, but others.
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Re: Re: for the uninformed - Milton Berle became well known for stealing jokes from other comedians. ...
If after the laughter died down he said... na that didn't happen. would it be ok?
Or does he have to thank the creator for the material cite when and where it was told originaly and reference how where and why the creator's work applies in the context he is explaining today.
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Re: for the uninformed - Milton Berle became well known for stealing jokes from other comedians. ...
This story has absolutely nothing to do with copyright or IP. It is plagiarism, and plagiarism is not (necessarily) copyright infringement. It's not even unlawful.
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But it seen to be the base that most copyright is built on.
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Re: Copyright v. Plagiarism
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Re: Re: Copyright v. Plagiarism
But in today's world both are being abused by the "damaged victims"
IANAL.....but
Telling a joke seens a little different than googling a paper and handing it in as your own.
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Re: Re: Re: Copyright v. Plagiarism
How was Patton Oswalt doing this? He claimed the kid "stole" (plagiarized) his jokes, and got pissed off. But he didn't sue, or involve the legal system in any way; all he did was "name and shame." Once the kid owned up, he accepted the apology.
It was never about the kid "reproducing" the joke; it was about the kid "taking ownership" of the joke. If he had just said something like "a story from Patton Oswalt comes to mind," then nobody would have given a shit.
This is exactly how "stealing ideas" should be handled.
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Matt Damon (in Good Will Hunting) was clearly making a joke of his joke. This guy passed the experience off as his own. (Just so you know... not sure what I think yet... just trying to think it through). Thoughts?
I definitely don't think he should have included an experience that was not his own in his speech. But is it plagiarism to retell a joke? I am still not sure.
In the context that the guy told the anecdote, I say unethical.
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Who's to say what was his thought process. I watched both clips an although it was a long time ago I can relate to and laugh at the joke.
I had a few professors who /had/ to teach classes that were so far beneath them it was like Einstein teaching 2nd grade math. They would try to dumb it down for the masses (like the Star Trek analogy) only to have the class derailed by details totaly unrelated to the subject.
Maybe /that/ was the parallel for the (again) JOKE. I don't know I wasn't there.
The kid has apologized and taken responsibility for his actions.
I just think its wrong to convice him in the court of public opinion for what in my mind is a casual, common occurance.
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Well.
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Was the joke represenitive of the class/teacher/student in question?
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Hi again.
The story was definitely presented as a first person account. Also, it was communicated that a fellow classmate was the one who ran to the front to talk to the prof.... again, as if it were a first person account, not some sort of representation.
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Hrm
Did Oswalt diligently examine the literature (fanzines, and the like) to ensure his contribution was original? Did he footnote any relevant findings?
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What a non issue. "Stealing" a joke is like stealing a recipe.
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The comedy community can disapprove them to hell and back, but that doesn't stop them. I'm not arguing for government intervention, but the argument that social mores are stopping joke plagiarizers is absurd.
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Re:
I didn't say it *stopped* joke plagiarizers. I just said there was a social cost to doing it. Now you can argue that those comedians have found the benefit to outweigh the cost, and that might be true. And, for them, a big part of the reason is that they are good comedians -- in that they realize it's more about the delivery than the joke (the execution, rather than the idea). Is there anything wrong with that?
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Telling old stories
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MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE MADE THIS POINT 1
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The videos are gone
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