ASCAP Members Pissed Off At ASCAP's Attack On Creative Commons

from the fundraising-for-whom? dept

Mon, Jun 28th 2010 9:25am — Mike Masnick

Last week, we posted about how ASCAP was attacking EFF, Public Knowledge and (most bizarre of all) Creative Commons, as part of its fundraising drive. As we pointed out, this showed ASCAP's true colors. For an organization that presents itself as trying to supports artists' rights, it's downright ridiculous to attack a group like Creative Commons that only looks to give musicians more choices in what they do with their own rights. In following some of the reaction to the article, I saw a tweet from musician Eric Young, where he publicly declared plans to quit ASCAP over this fundraising appeal:

#FUCKASCAP #iQuit ... this is the 1st public anncmnt of my resignation from ASCAP. this is bullshit.

That left me wondering how other ASCAP members were feeling about this, and thankfully, Slashdot points us to a blog post on the Mind the Gap blog that discusses this issue (towards the end). In the comments, though, a number of ASCAP members express their displeasure with the organization.

Corey Dargel who also tweeted his displeasure and plans to quit ASCAP commented:

I think ASCAP should be ashamed of itself, and I am presently ashamed to be a card-carrying member of ASCAP. The language in that fundraising email is fear-based and reactionary. Furthermore, it is misleading and disingenuous. ASCAP portrays itself as a grassroots organization and calls attention to the "deep pockets" of Creative Commons, but in fact it is *ASCAP*, not Creative Commons, that's siding with corporate interests and "deep pockets."

A Rich T. explains his problems with the ASCAP campaign:

I'm the agent for my father, who was a studio musician, performer, music & songwriter from the late 50's until the late 80's, when he retired.

We've been fighting with ASCAP for 6 years to get the money they received for selling the rights to several of his early recordings to a overseas company.

He also handed out free "right to record" statements at the end of each live show back when the recording industry was pushing the "taping is stealing" propaganda.

he's totally against anything that would further criminalize fair use, and has asked me to help him write up a appropriately scathing letter to ASCAP on the subject.

ASCAP member sarah is upset at the fear mongering:

I got this letter yesterday; and all I could think was even if it was true, it wouldn't affect me -- seeing as how several songs I co-wrote have been airing regularly for over 2 years on TV (kid's show stuff, so I do mean regularly), yet I haven't seen a penny through ASCAP. I think they should worry about their own mission statement and get creators actually PAID.

And if I was actually getting my royalties, I would still think the letter was ridiculous and fear-mongering. But what else are they going to do -- let everyone know there's an issue that people need to thoughtfully and sensibly make up their own minds on? Of course not.

Musician Jeremy Jarratt also announced plans to quit ASCAP:

I'm a card-carrying member of ASCAP as well. At least, i was until i got their message. I'm disaffiliating myself as soon as i can figure out how. This is ingenuous at best, and an insult to anyone with even the remotest modicum of understanding of modern digital content distribution. It shows only how antiquated this whole entire game is.

ASCAP should change their moniker to ASSHAT: American Society of Socially-Harmful Attorneys and Treasurers.

Someone going by the name Bobkat who is a member of ASCAP admits that he generally likes ASCAP protecting his rights, but is disgusted with the tone of the letter and now very conflicted over how he feels about ASCAP:

I'm also a member of ASCAP, and I was digusted by the tone of the letter. I hold Creative Commons and the EFF in high regard, and painting them as some kind of enemy of musicians is ridiculous. As a musician, I don't feel like a small-time individual has many options; I have a pretty broad idea of fair use, myself, but if Kanye sampled my song and made millions off of it then damn right I would want a piece. Without the resources to hire a lawyer, who else but ASCAP could help me get my share? Yet at the same time, I don't completely trust that they're really always protecting my best interests; and in this case I believe they have amply demonstrated how clumsy and old-fashioned their philosophy is. What a crummy situation.

Similarly conflicted is Dennis Bathory-Kitsz who wrote a very long comment trying to explain both sides, but finally coming down on the side where he hopes ASCAP changes its stance (this one was long, so just some excerpts here):

I'm a longtime member of both ASCAP and EFF, and I find the whole situation painful.

ASCAP's broadcast and international royalty collections are poor (former is a lottery, latter is unenthusiastic) but their domestic performance royalties are good and appropriately scaled. I appreciate that, and also appreciate that their staff is actually fairly small.

That said, I have to say I'm always disappointed by ASCAP's rough behavior (even if they're not nearly as awful as the RIAA). Maybe it's a negotiating stance, but it just tastes bad....

....

I attended one of the first ASCAP committee meetings about internet music use back in 1995 (where I met folks such as Laurie Spiegel and Morton Subotnik for the first time). I suspect that the composers in attendance 15 years ago are disappointed if not disgusted by the bullying position ASCAP has been taking (revealed as much in the "Daily Briefing" emails they send out as in the recent letter).

So I hope ASCAP will rethink its position and arrive at a truly creative solution that acknowledges how culture (to which they're nominally allied) functions as opposed to a hard-line interpretation of the law. This is no easy task, as Congress has been doing the bidding of the real deep pockets in the past few decades.

Meanwhile, there were some similar comments found on the BoingBoing article on ASCAP's letter as well. For example, there is this comment from the musician Kemmler who posted the email he sent back upon getting ASCAP's fundraising pitch:

Dear Mr. Williams -

I'm not interested in supporting any initiative based on this sort of information-free screed. I've personally relied on creative-commons licensed materials to use in my own work, as well as a license which provides a convenient way to both promote and control the dissemination of my own work.

I also have a firm respect for the EFF and their efforts in protecting the interests of consumers and small business where they pertain to new media channels, the internet, or IP.

As a musician, and as an entrepreneur making my living selling equipment to studios and musicians, I obviously have a great deal to lose if the putative forces of "copyleft" somehow succeed in preventing music being paid for. However, I cannot condone, or fail to decry the practice of vilifying institutions like Creative Commons, which poses absolutely no conceivable illegitimate threat to ASCAP or its members.

If someone wants to license their materials under a CC license - that's their right. If someone wants to use CC-licensed material, and not pay ASCAP for some other material - that's also their right. Please grow up and get a grip.

Similar to some of the conflicted artists above, someone going by the name "BrooklynTwang" who appears to be the musician Rench posted a comment about how he supports ASCAP and what it does, but hates this fundraising campaign:

I am an ASCAP member. I hate this fundraising letter and I am telling them so.

You can tell them too, right here
http://www.ascap.com/legislation/legislation-form.html

Just FYI though regarding the ASCAP-is-corporate-assholes talk, I am not a rich rockstar but I make money licensing music for film, tv, and commercials. I am happy to give music away free to the public, but if some corporation is going to use it to sell crap, they should pay me. Not just the up front fee, but royalties for each time they run the ad/show/film. ASCAP makes them do that so they don't get away with shortchanging artists like me. Thats one thing that ASCAP does, and thats why I am a member. ASCAP is not just another corporation. They are a player in a complex position between artists and corporations. They are not the bad guys, they are just not as good as they should be these days. Next time we vote on the ASCAP board members I will grill the nominees about this.

That's not all either, but a quick sampling. I'm sure that this won't have a noticeable impact on ASCAP, which has 380,000 members, most of whom probably don't know or don't care much about the details of what it is ASCAP is misleadingly attacking. But ASCAP might want to be careful before continuing to attack organizations that actually do have musicians' best interests in mind. They might find that more and more will start to question ASCAP's motives as well. In the end, I doubt there was anything malicious in ASCAP's fundraising letter. It's just that the organization is so far out of touch with what's happening in the music world today that it actually thinks attacking these groups makes sense.

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Filed Under: copyright, music
Companies: ascap, creative commons, eff, public knowledge

71 Comments

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Mike C. (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 7:45am

Quite a nice summary of the negative reaction that ASCAP is receiving. Might be a bit better if quit wasn't spelled "quite" in a few places.... :-)
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:29am

380,000 member, there are sure to be a few upset. the people you linked in the article dont appear to be major stars or anything like that. do they have anything to lose by quitting? or are they just people who joined with the intention to quit one day publicly to hope to get some coverage?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:34am

Re:
"or are they just people who joined with the intention to quit one day publicly to hope to get some coverage?"

You are an idiot. Yes, it's all one big conspiracy, people joined ASCAP for the purpose of quitting one day to make a statement. Seriously? and I'm sure they wanted to pay the $35 fee to ASCAP for the point of making a point too? They want to help ASCAP financially for the purpose of making a point by quitting. How can anyone take anything you say seriously?
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crade (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:35am

Re:
"the people you linked in the article dont appear to be major stars or anything like that. do they have anything to lose by quitting"

Are you implying only Major stars interests are protected by ASCAP? gasp! :)
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:36am

Re: Re:
It must be Monday again, that's why TAM has nothing meaningful to say.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:40am

Re:
"the people you linked in the article dont appear to be major stars or anything like that."

So only the opinions of major stars count? Sounds rather condescending if you ask me.
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Anonymous Poster, 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:43am

This is good.

This is very good.
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crade (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:46am

Creative Commons is completely legitimate competition by any stretch, and ASCAP should be looking to compete legitimately as well.
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btr1701 (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:47am

Re: Re: Re:
> It must be Monday again, that's why TAM has nothing meaningful to say.

Is there any day of the week when he does?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:50am

Re: Re:
hi mike. you dont think some people would do it? $35 to be able to make such a public statement? i can picture plenty of people doing it, just to make ascap look bad.

why dont you just sign your real name and stop using anonymous for your personal attacks?
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 9:52am

Whoa, what?
"In the end, I doubt there was anything malicious in ASCAP's fundraising letter."

Wait a second....what? Are you kidding? Or is this statement just an attempt to sound understanding and reasonable. The tone of that letter was the same as the garbage we hear from government about our supposed "enemies" who really just did something we don't like. They basically declared two great organizations, the EFF and Creative Commons, to be bad for artists and society as a whole. How are you missing the malicious part of that?

More importantly, in my years working for a few different companies, I've learned that there are two types of businesses on the planet:

1. Companies that are looking for every opportunity and angle to make money, thereby increasing their profits

2. Companies that are looking for every opportunity and angle to help their clients, knowing that in the end, this will lead to increasing profits

The difference is subtle, but of massive importance. If ASCAP actually cultivated their diminishing reputation as an artist's rights group, instead of looking to attack CC and the EFF in a misguided attempt to gain more members or whatever they're trying to do, they would probably actually see the increase they were looking for in the first place. They went the malicious route. To minimize that...wow, I just don't know, it's almost like someone else wrote that sentence....
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:01am

Re:
do they have anything to lose by quitting?

I would imagine that the musicians that are not "major stars" have more to lose. As a few noted in Mike's post, they can't afford lawyers to get what is "owed" to them, so they rely on ASCAP to do it.

It's okay, though, no one expects critical thinking from you, TAM.
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:04am

Re: Whoa, what?
I think you are confusing malice with an all-to-common mixture of fear and greed.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:12am

Open source software is communistic!
Credit Unions are anti-American!
Creative Commons is thievery!
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:13am

Re: Re: Whoa, what?
Er, no I'm not. Malice is the "desire to see others harmed or suffer". Examples from their letter:

"I am urging you to support ASCAP's Legislative Fund for the Arts." - Shows their intent to react to CC and the EFF by lobbying for legislation that would go against them.

"...but the truth is these groups (including EFF and CC) simly do not want to pay for the use of our music." - Not only malicious in that they are trying to undermine the EFF and CC, but it's not even logical. It's a lie. CC has nothing to do with not paying ASCAP for the use of music. It's just silly. And Malicious....

"We are asking you to make a very small contribution to wage this battle..." - Ah, the language of war, nothing malicious about that....
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:18am

Re: Re: Re:
The $35 is going to ASCAP. Heck, if you're right then I can start an organization where people give me $35 each to quit the organization for the sake of making me look foolish I would do it. I'll be rich and I can use that money to further advance my endeavors. Seriously, you are being an idiot. It would be much wiser to give that $35 to Public knowledge or the EFF or some other organization that will use it to better make ASCAP look like a fool or to start an organization and collect $35 from people to write bad press about them that makes them look like a fool. Besides, ASCAP does a good job making themselves look like fools regardless. After all, the whole purpose of the letter is for ASCAP to collect money, if people gave ASCAP money to quit then that serves the purpose of what ASCAP is trying to do. ASCAP wants to collect money for a reason, because it helps further their cause, so giving them money is not in the interest of those who don't like ASCAP. But you knew that, you're just trolling.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:25am

Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
Malice is the desire to see others harmed as an end in and of itself. Selfishness is the desire to acquire more money/power/resources/things/fame/notoriety/credibility/Good publicity/blah with no regard for how your behavior affects others. I don't think ASCAP is malicious, just selfish. They don't care about anyone but themselves, they don't want to hurt others just for the sake of hurting others, but they don't care if their behavior to serve their self serving purposes do hurt others.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:27am

Re:
You are getting weaker!
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Dave, 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:27am

unbelievable
ASCAP is so brazen in their gall and stupidity that it's mind-bending.

I can see the concept of paying people for use of their music in films and TV, but apparently, as per one poster above, even that's not working.

And now they want to screw up Creative Commons. Man, they do anything to try to get their pound of flesh, even if it has nothing to do with their supposed reason for existing.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
Hm, interesting, but I don't agree. They basically declared war on groups that are inarguably not directly attacking them. That seems to fit with the definition of malice:

malice [ˈmælɪs]
n
1. the desire to do harm or mischief
2. evil intent
3. (Law) Law the state of mind with which an act is committed and from which the intent to do wrong may be inferred See also malice aforethought
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:33am

Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
ehh... I don't know.

I can't help but see the letter and its underlying reasons for this "battle" they want funding to wage as more of a "fight or flight" reaction than any type of malicious endeavor.

That explains why, as you noted, it isn't logical, and a bit silly. As is the theme for everything IP related, if anything causes them to *not* make money, then it should be eliminated. Since the EFF is strongly in the Fair Use camp and in a twisted way CC does compete with ASCAP, both make excellent kneejerk reaction targets.

In the end, it doesn't matter, I suppose.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
They are attacking those groups because those groups ultimately pose a threat to ASCAP's profits, not because they want to attack those groups for the sake of attacking them. Their behavior is selfish.
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Thomas (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:39am

When was..
ASCAP or any of the record companies interested in artists? They exist solely to make money. Helping or doing something for artists is a foreign concept to them.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:40am

Re: Re: Re:
It's the Attack of the Anonymous Mike Clones! Oh noes, look behind you! Tammy is under siege by the great comment conspiracy!
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bob, 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:41am

Re:
Hey these are musicians and such not English teachers what do you expect?
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:42am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
And malicious.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:42am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
Meh, fair enough. Perhaps I'm wearing orthopedic shoes, because I stand corrected....
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
Oh, and to answer your fluoride question you asked a long time ago read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation

"In most drinking waters, over 95% of total fluoride is the F− ion, with the magnesium–fluoride complex (MgF+) being the next most common."

Ions make water electrically conductive. So a good analog ohm meter should detect it.

However, the fluoride concentration in water are so small it might not?

"Pitcher or faucet-mounted water filters do not alter fluoride; the more-expensive reverse osmosis filters remove 65–95% of fluoride, and distillation filters remove all fluoride."

(same article).

Usually when you go to the stores to fill up water and you see those huge round things that's reverse osmosis. The problem with reverse osmosis and especially distillation is that it also removes a lot of useful minerals from the water.
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interval (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:49am

"ASSHAT", that's a good one.
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interval (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:55am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
"Oh, and to answer your fluoride question you asked a long time ago..."

Wtf?
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 10:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
Was that when I asked how one could detect the presence of fluoride in their drinking water?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 11:11am

I'd be interested to see if ASCAP makes any public comments regarding this backlash. I hope so.
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Richard (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 11:35am

Re:
380,000 member, there are sure to be a few upset. the people you linked in the article dont appear to be major stars or anything like that. do they have anything to lose by quitting? or are they just people who joined with the intention to quit one day publicly to hope to get some coverage?

I was wondering just how you were going to come up with an opposing comment on this one. I thought you might have come up with something better than this - but maybe a better strategy would have been just to leave this one alone. After all ASCAP are being pretty stupid and nasty - really not a good idea to try and defend them.
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Marcel de Jong (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 11:37am

Re: Re: Re:
says the anonymous hypocrite.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 11:47am

Re: Re:
you assume they have anything owing. i would expect you to have a least taken a moment to consider that.

sort of failed on critical thinking, no?
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 12:24pm

Re: Re: Re:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that my sentence was gramatically confusing.

Rewrite:

they can't afford lawyers to get what is or will be "owed" to them, so they rely on ASCAP to collect and enforce the proper licenses now or in the future.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 12:33pm

Re: Re:
But if they don't try to defend ASCAP, then who will?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 12:37pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
again, you are assuming that they have anything to collect, and have done anything that will require collections in the future. having a membership in asacp is not indication that you have done anything that merits protection or collection.

again, you failed critical thinking, assuming that the people listed here are anything other that pissed off bar band members.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 12:52pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And you wonder why your side of the equation is getting weaker.
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interval (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 1:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
...Are fiendish fluoridating communists sneaking around your house and filling you pool with red dye too?
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 1:04pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
....?

I understand now, that you don't bother to read anything other than the title of the post.

Allow me to *show* you why I am not assuming what you assume I have assumed:

We've been fighting with ASCAP for 6 years to get the money they received for selling the rights to several of his early recordings to a overseas company.

****

seeing as how several songs I co-wrote have been airing regularly for over 2 years on TV (kid's show stuff, so I do mean regularly)

****

As a musician, I don't feel like a small-time individual has many options; I have a pretty broad idea of fair use, myself, but if Kanye sampled my song and made millions off of it then damn right I would want a piece. Without the resources to hire a lawyer, who else but ASCAP could help me get my share?

****

As a musician, and as an entrepreneur making my living selling equipment to studios and musicians, I obviously have a great deal to lose if the putative forces of "copyleft" somehow succeed in preventing music being paid for.

I would also like to point out that even "bar bands" can make a popular song that "will require collections in the future". Many musicians start out in a bar (or garage, even!) and go on to "make it".

Is this some corollary to Masnick's law? If an ASCAP member dares disagree with ASCAP then they will forever be doomed to musical obscurity? Can you not come up with anything more worthwhile?
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 1:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, what?
No, but I don't simply believe that they aren't doing it just because my municipal and state govt. tells me they aren't....
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 1:56pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Nope. And that's a weakness.
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Howlin' Hobbit (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 2:06pm

The Infamous Joe sez: I would also like to point out that even "bar bands" can make a popular song that "will require collections in the future". Many musicians start out in a bar (or garage, even!) and go on to "make it". Yes indeedy. Like those four lads from Liverpool for instance. We can pretty much ignore what ASCAP, RIAA and even ASSHAT have to say on the subject. A Creative Commons license is, contractually speaking, perfectly legal. For the performing and/or recording musicians out there, just continue doing what you think is right and trust your fans to show you some love. If you have fans, they will show you some love. For the folks who write songs for others, I acknowledge that it's a bit tougher situation, but thinking creatively (err... pun semi-intended) will get you into the same situation. In fine, let the dinosaurs sink happily into the tar pit. Pretty soon we won't even be able to hear their roars of panic.
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Butthead, 28 Jun 2010 @ 2:22pm

Ha Ha
You said asscap.
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Nick Dynice (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 2:33pm

You can't just quit ASCAP. If you have registered works under ASCAP you will probably need to remain with them to receive your royalties. Whoever suggested that people join and then quit as a protest knows nothing about how collection societies work.
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Karl (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 3:02pm

Re: Bad Member!
the people you linked in the article dont appear to be major stars or anything like that. do they have anything to lose by quitting?

Well, since they paid to become members, they must have believed they had something to gain by joining.

Are you implying they're wrong, and should never have joined in the first place? That the only people who benefit from ASCAP membership are "major stars," and everyone else has been suckered into paying money for a pipe dream?

I don't disagree, I'm just asking if that's actually your opinion. If it's not, then it doesn't matter if they're "major stars" or not.

or are they just people who joined with the intention to quit one day publicly to hope to get some coverage?

Are you seriously suggesting they voluntarily gave money to an organization they don't support, merely for the chance to make a negative post about them on a message board or two?

Right.

Maybe we should hear from all those ASCAP musicians that actively support outlawing Creative Commons. Know of any? I don't.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 3:19pm

Re:
Right. Saboteurs, spies and terrorists the lot of them! Those creative commons people are pure EVIL. They've been infiltrating the cool people of ASCAP in hopes to smear them and destroy them from the inside! ASCAP and the *AAs aren't bad, it's these evil organizations that have been undermining their reputation all along!

Open yur eyez ppl!!!11!one!1!

/s
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 4:08pm

It was stupid of ASCAP to go after Creative Commons, which is, despite its surrounding culture, perfectly legitimate.

EFF on the other hand is hardly the neutral entity it's made out to be with its long history of shilling for Silicon Valley freeloaders. It's more of a friend to the Googles and Groksters of the world than it is to musicians or any other content creator.
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Karl (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 4:19pm

Re:
Um, where do you get this? Even leaving out CC, people quit ASCAP to go to BMI all the time.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 4:37pm

Re:
EFF on the other hand is hardly the neutral entity it's made out to be with its long history of shilling for Silicon Valley freeloaders. It's more of a friend to the Googles and Groksters of the world than it is to musicians or any other content creator.

If you believe that, then I certainly hope you're not in the entertainment business, because you're missing the boat by such a wide margin.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 5:19pm

ASCAP = mindless corporate shills
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2010 @ 5:30pm

Re: Re:
It's not a matter of belief at all. And if you think anyone in the film industry (at least) sees a friend in the EFF, you're out of your mind. Fred Lohmann, with his previous ties to Limewire and Grokster has now found a home with Google. What a surprise.

It's okay to "miss the boat" if the boat is headed for a cliff.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 11:37pm

Re: Re: Re:
And if you think anyone in the film industry (at least) sees a friend in the EFF, you're out of your mind. Fred Lohmann, with his previous ties to Limewire and Grokster has now found a home with Google. What a surprise.

Funny. I know plenty of filmmakers who are EFF supporters.

Fred von Lohmann (apparently you're so out of touch you don't even know the guy's name) is a well respected copyright lawyer on these issues. I'm not sure what the fact that he's done stuff with those three companies has to do with anything. The fact that you automatically think it's a negative to have done work with those three companies suggests, again, that you are so lost that you are drowning.

No wonder your business models are failing. Kinda sad that you're lashing out at those who are offering you the solutions, though. Typical. But sad.
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Jay (profile), 28 Jun 2010 @ 11:47pm

Define irony
ASCAP goes to attack the Creative Commons, commits career suicide and causes an uprising in their musician ranks.

Should we feel sorry for making such a poorly thought out letter?
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Jeroen, 29 Jun 2010 @ 5:47am

The copyright industry is going nuts !
The subject sais enough...
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Hephaestus (profile), 29 Jun 2010 @ 8:15am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"No wonder your business models are failing. Kinda sad that you're lashing out at those who are offering you the solutions, though. Typical. But sad."

A couple days ago I said ...

I find it pretty amazing the way these people group together, are totally inflexable, attack anyone with a discenting voice, go into rages or walk away in denial when anyone questions their belief system.

This persons post is a perfect example of it. It also shows he is seeing conspiracies, one of the problems with having a closed social group.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2010 @ 8:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
" if Kanye sampled my song and made millions off of it then damn right I would want a piece." - it does not say that any sampling occured, just that he would want money if it happened.

"As a musician, and as an entrepreneur making my living selling equipment to studios and musicians, " - someone who sells equipment, not music. asacp would own him nothing (but his clients would not get paid and he would not sell equipment, different story)

"I would also like to point out that even "bar bands" can make a popular song that "will require collections in the future". Many musicians start out in a bar (or garage, even!) and go on to "make it". " - yes, but my point is this: if they are owned little or nothing at this point, quitting the organization (and potentially rejoining later) would not change anything, but would give them something to grandstand about. i think that most of the people here busy venting on twitter are just that, people with nothing to lose, and everything to gain looking like they are sticking it to the man.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2010 @ 11:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And when you have any, you know...evidence, maybe you might have a point.

Of course, as always, you have no evidence, and no point.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2010 @ 11:49am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Funny. I know plenty of filmmakers who are EFF supporters.

People who post youtube cat videos might support the EFF, I'll grant you that but you don't know any filmmakers with a DGA, WGA, SAG or PGA card in their wallet that supports them. If you do, I invite you to name them or point to where such acknowledgment was made.

I'm not sure what the fact that he's done stuff with those three companies has to do with anything.

You're not sure why his long history of defending commercial piracy companies like Grokster and Limewire is relevant? Seriously? Do you realize how often you've posted about this same sort of scenario? Here for instance, is one of the many examples: http://techdirt.com/articles/20090814/1256505886.shtml

"...isn't a huge surprise, given the fact that the Justice Department is stocked with former lawyers for the entertainment industry..." - you

Enjoy your hypocrisy.

Kinda sad that you're lashing out at those who are offering you the solutions, though. Typical. But sad.

Solutions for aggregators, pirates, hobbyists, derivative sub-artists and counterfeiters, sure. Professional content creators on the other hand? Nothing but fairy dust and utopian theories extrapolated far beyond any semblance of reason.

No wonder your business models have yet to prove themselves viable anywhere but in the software business and even there, not entirely. Kinda sad that you're lashing out at those are offering you a dose of reality, though. Typical. But sad.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2010 @ 11:51am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"A couple days ago I said ...I find it pretty amazing the way these people group together, are totally inflexable, attack anyone with a discenting voice, go into rages or walk away in denial when anyone questions their belief system."

And it's still the funniest techdirt post of the year, great job!
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Hephaestus (profile), 29 Jun 2010 @ 11:54am

Re: Define irony
"ASCAP goes to attack the Creative Commons, commits career suicide and causes an uprising in their musician ranks."

It truely seems that all the media distribution companies, and collection societies are trying to destroy themselves. I can not think of any other reason for the things they do or the way they act.

Maybe I am not seeing it, but can someone please point me to one thing they have done right in the last year or two.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2010 @ 3:10pm

"We're losing money."

"No. You're spending it all on blogshills and IP lawyers."

"What do you mean they're boycotting us? WE ARE ENTERTAINMENT! Can we just make it a law that they have to buy our products?"

"No. I'm afraid that will fail miserably..."

"Copying is theft!"

"No. It's copying."

"We took down The Pirate Bay! Again! [high fives]"

"Mwahahahahahahahaha."

"You are starving the artists!"

"Perhaps if you gave them more than 0.0025% of the money you take in on their behalf they would more effectively be able to acquire foodstuffs."

"The EFF and CC are stealing money from artists!"

"No. The EFF and CC are empowering artists to be successful, and at the same time, independent of parasitic collection groups like ASCAP."
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2010 @ 6:23pm

First the "ringtones are a public performance! PAY US MONEY!!!" BS and now this. I think ASCAP has been infiltrated by some big player affiliates and is having its original purpose phased out for the corporate propaganda regime that is currently trying to destroy creativity and freedom.
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Dan, 1 Jul 2010 @ 7:35am

Re: Re:
After multiple decades in this business I have learned to never assume anyone is a nothing wannabe just because you don't know their name.

Believe it or not, there are musicians and songwriters you've never heard of who make huge money through the royalties generated by ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. Just because they're not the flavor of the week tabloid fodder don't assume that these guys are just ambitious nobodies.

My business partner for many years was responsible for breaking some of Britian's hottest acts in the USA and no one knows him by name.

The lesson here: Don't write them off because their not famous.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2010 @ 2:00am

Re: Re: Re:
ASCAP doesn't write their members off if they're not famous... at least, they don't write them off completely so they can still collect money from bands that might play their songs.
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Lindsay Haisley, 16 Jul 2010 @ 12:13pm

ASCAP vs. EFF and Creative Commons
I am an ASCAP member, recently joined, and received ASCAP's blast against EFF and Creative Commons. Here's my reply, sent to ASCAP's president.

> At this moment, we are facing our biggest challenge ever.
> Many forces including Creative Commons, Public Knowledge,
> Electronic Frontier Foundation and technology companies
> with deep pockets are mobilizing to promote "Copyleft"
> in order to undermine our "Copyright." They say they are
> advocates of consumer rights, but the truth is these
> groups simply do not want to pay for the use of our
> music. Their mission is to spread the word that our
> music should be free.

I am an ASCAP member and also a supporter of Creative Commons, and a contributor and member of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

The above statement is false and totally misleading, and ASCAP should know better than to propagate this kind of crap. Creative Commons provides a license whereby authors and creative artists can distribute their work for free with the assurance the that license is legally solid and their work can't be appropriated by others who would attempt to charge for it. People license their works under a Creative Commons license VOLUNTARILY. In no way does this represent an effort to circumvent existing copyrights and licenses.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation is a legal watchdog organization, providing legal support for consumers and organizations in a digital world much as the American Civil Liberties Union provides similar services for the non-digital world. I FULLY support EFF's work and have been a member and contributor to EFF's efforts. If ASCAP has a legal beef with EFF, perhaps ASCAP should keep it in the courts and not go spreading lies such as these to their members.

In my humble opinion, ASCAP owes some big time apologies. This kind of BS inclines me to sever my new relationship with ASCAP and join instead with a more honest and progressive performance rights organization.

Needless to say, I will NOT be contributing to the ASCAP Legislative Fund for the Arts!

Lindsay Haisley
ASCAP member 3165030
ASCAP publisher member 3188663
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Nick Dynice (profile), 14 Jul 2011 @ 12:04pm

There are broken links in this post as ArtistJournal.com has changed their - into _ on their URLs. Here is the new linke: http://www.artsjournal.com/gap/2010/06/the_right_balance_on_copying.html
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lrobbo (profile), 29 May 2012 @ 4:52pm

A few spelling mistakes certainly don't detract from the article - a quality summary
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fodder99 (profile), 30 Jun 2012 @ 10:48am

And quite a witty one too.
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Blurred, 21 Apr 2016 @ 12:57pm

ASCAP
I like urine a lot.
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